debate cessationism with me

too bad hawk, I'm a firm believer that the gifts are for today.

There was a poster by the name of Cougan who's a cessationist looking for proof.

Dont knowif he'll see your post and take up the challenge

I dont see why they wouldnt have, we have the same Holy Spirit.

 

I believe we don't have enough faith today so it is a hindrance to the Spirit.

 

my short opinion on a late night

I wish you would explain more on how you think cessationism is applied today.
I havn't seen anyone feed 5000 hungry men with a loaf of bread, nor heal anyone so that their skin is that of a child etc. Although I don't think they (gifts) are active today, I do know that God does not take away but only adds to.
Had He taken away the Spirit, how could anyone ever be born of Spirit?
Gee, maybe I need to study it myself.
Maybe it is just us who don't know how to use the gifts.

hawk,

go to the Non-denom section and ask your questions there. talk abt tongues or healing or faith there and you'll prob get a lot of opposition! *LOL

We would have to agree to disagree if we disagreed that is.

I believe that, especially in our times, there are many signs and the Holy Spirit is active and alive, but not to those who wait for material signs. 

I have started a thread about Signs of the Holy Spirit in our Times, here's the link:

Do you believe in Miracles, apparitions and visions in our times?


TLiG  June 7, 1998:

In John 16:12-13 Jesus says to His disciples: "I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now; but when the Spirit of Truth comes He will lead you to the complete Truth..." It is a mistake to speak of an end to Revelation and treat it as a deposit of sentences. God is active and alive and will continue showing Himself through the Holy Spirit, never stopping in doing so. When one says in Latin: "completere", it means that Christ is the full, complete revelation of God; and not that He will stop revealing Himself to mankind. The Holy Bible is the narrative testimony of Jesus Christ. It is not God's last word.

in The Two Hearts of Jesus and Mary,
Love
jack

I don't believe the Bible teaches that the gifts of the Spirit ceased with the deaths of the Apostles. I believe people still receive the gift of healing, prophesy (a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God; not foretelling the future but explaining the prophesies that already exist in Scripture), discernment, speaking in tongues, etc.

I do not believe those who boast about having gifts such as healing actually have them. I believe those gifts are reserved for humble people who use them to glorify God and not themselves. I don't have Scripture to back that, it is simply my opinion.

Yeah, I believe spiritual gifts are for today too. I find just from anecdotal evidence that most people in my circle are open to the possibility that spiritual gifts do happen but that they are those things you either have or don't and most don't. In theory they may not believe that the gifts have ceased but practically the church treats gifts as if they don't exist. No-one talks about them as more than mere theoretical or conversational oddities. It's all "go back to the Word of GOD" and while I really do admire those around me who are dedicated and work hard and are committed to serving God, I see in every workshop, every talk, etc. they are just looking for something they know is missing somewhere in the back of their walk with God. And all they are given is this book.

Without spiritual gifts or being spirit-filled they are doing it a lot harder. So usually the debate for me and with them is not from the angle of cessationism but from applying what they theoretically believe in. It's a paradigm shift that hopefully the Spirit will work in people.

blessings,

When someone builds a house, do they build a foundation on top of a foundation?

Originally posted by hawk
Cessationism refers to the belief that miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit such as healing, tongues, and prophecy passed away or ceased at the close of the apostolic age.  I have studied cessationism and I believe it does not accurately reflect New Testament teaching on spiritual gifts. 

Does anybody care to discuss/debate this topic?

peace in him

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Well hawk, you win the debate, we all agree that the Holy Spirit still works in us today and the gifts are alive and well. 

Originally posted by 4sightsounds
When someone builds a house, do they build a foundation on top of a foundation?

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Wait!  We may have a contender!

Possibly...

Hawk, would you be willing to define the gifts of prophecy, healing and tongues so I know what you're referring to? I may possibly be a contender.

For example, if you're referring to the 'healing' that comes by the hands of man, then I would have to respectfully challenge that notion.

B~

Originally posted by 4sightsounds
Possibly...

Hawk, would you be willing to define the gifts of prophecy, healing and tongues so I know what you're referring to? I may possibly be a contender.

For example, if you're referring to the 'healing' that comes by the hands of man, then I would have to respectfully challenge that notion.

B~

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No healing comes by the hands of man, but healing can be done by the Holy Spirit *through* man.  I, for one, don't believe that the Holy Spirit bestows the gift of healing on someone who will misuse it for monetary and material gain.

^^^ Agreed. I guess what I meant to say is this: Is God's healing manifested through the hands of man as it was during the period in which the church was established?

http://www.layhands.com/Index.htm#Training

I don't agree with everything at this website, but he makes some good points.  The guy seems a little over enthusiastic about some points maybe (such as his trying to get people to speak in tongues which I think should be allowed to occur naturally if it is to occur).  Other than that though, I think he makes some good points.

• Before Jesus went to the cross, He had a three-year earthly ministry (Luke 3:23).
• A large part of Jesus' ministry consisted of evangelism and healing (Luke 7:20-22).
• Jesus trained 12 ordinary men to carry on His ministry of evangelism and healing (Luke 9:1-6).
• Jesus also trained dozens of ordinary believers to carry on His ministry of evangelism and healing (Luke 10:1-20).
• Jesus said that He was sending the disciples out to continue the same ministry that He had been sent to do (John 20:21).
• Jesus commanded the disciples to continue making new disciples (us). All new disciples are supposed to be trained in the same evangelism and healing ministry that the original disciples were trained to do (Matthew 28:18-20).
• Jesus specifically commissioned all believers to continue His ministry of evangelism and healing (Mark 16:15-18).
• Jesus did healing miracles to demonstrate that He is the Son of God (Mark 2:1-12).
• The apostles did healing miracles which demonstrated that Jesus is the Son of God (Acts 9:32-42). The Church interpreted the Great Commission to mean that they were to continue Jesus' evangelism and healing ministry.
• Ordinary believers also did healing miracles which demonstrated that Jesus is the Son of God (Acts 8:4-12). The Church interpreted the Great Commission to mean that they were to continue Jesus' evangelism and healing ministry.
• The laying-on of hands was an elementary, foundational teaching for new believers (Hebrews 6:1-2).
• Jesus said that anyone with faith in Him will do the same miracles that He did (John 14:11-12).
• Jesus commissioned the Church to continue His evangelism and healing ministry until He returns for us (Matthew 28:18-20).

The gifts are a topic that is greatly abused. As Paul told the Corinthians not everyone got them and not everyone got the same ones.

The gifts are a topic that is greatly abused. As Paul told the Corinthians not everyone got them and not everyone got the same ones.

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more like greatly misunderstood by those who are agst it. The churches that are being blessed with these gifts and exercising the gifts seldom refer to them as being abused. It is usu those grps opposed to them that cite abuse as one more reason to object to the gifts.

OK, what was the PURPOSE in which Jesus performed miracles?


Why did Jesus, after his resurrection tell the apostles to look for specific SIGNS among believers?

I'm at work right now, but I'll explain why I ask these particular questions later.