Pre Trib Bible Study

The six part series, titled "The timing of the rapture, part 1-part 6" demonstrates that a pre-trib Bible study is indeed possible, for it is based, in its entirety, on the Bible.

Nor is it based on scriptures that can somehow be wrested to seem to indicate a pre-tribulation rapture. It is based, in its entirety, on scriptures that clearly state the facts under discussion.

But I must add a word of caution. Although the Bible very explicitly states that there will be a rapture, it simply does not explicitly state when this will happen. All positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretations of the meanings of various scriptures. Pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath trib, and post trib are all interpretations of scripture, not scripture. While I am very decided in my position on the timing of the rapture, and while I am persuaded that a true understanding of scripture can lead to no other conclusion, I readily admit that this is an interpretation.

And all people that imagine that their interpretation of the meaning of scripture is equivalent to explicitly stated scripture are fools.

yeshuasavedme said in post 10:

[Psalm 50]
4He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

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Psalms 50:4-5 refers to what will happen after the tribulation (Mark 13:27).

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yeshuasavedme said in post 12:

[Jeremiah 30]
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble/tribulation/sorrow, but he shall be saved out of it.

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The time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including Gentile believers (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).

yeshuasavedme said in post 12:

Now in Jeremiah 30, YHWH speaks of that day of Israel's sorrow/tribulation which can only come after the gathering together from off the earth and into heaven's tabernacle of His Holy Ones -harvest of sons of God adopted from Adam into Christ's New Name which is also the time that the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in" in Paul's terms; which is the ingathering of the sons of God into the barn/heaven, from whence the Holy Seed [Christ] is come from: Haggai chapter 2].

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When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen before the tribulation, but right before Jesus' second coming (Romans 11:26), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5-18) during the second half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapter 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the second coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Biblewriter said in post 15:

“I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” (John 14:2-3)

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John 14:2 means that one of the reasons that Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he's not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be at his second coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), on his way down to the present earth at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and other events are over (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the bodily resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

The church has already come to the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to the Father's house when they die, for their souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

Biblewriter said in post 15:

“Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” (Jude 14-15)

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Regarding "the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints" (Jude 1:14), note that 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 refer to Jesus' second coming, when the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the third heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who survived the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up together as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31).

It's because of this second-coming rapture into the sky (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

Biblewriter said in post 15:

In the parable of the ten virgins, we read that “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” (Matthew 25:10-12)

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The ten virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus will not occur until his second coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying will not occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage will not occur until after the tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his second coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) has not yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which will not occur until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24. For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after Jesus' second coming and the resurrection and marriage of the church at that time (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the armies of the unsaved world defeated at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the ten virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6, "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation, possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist, could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' second coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, compare Revelation 16:15).

Biblewriter said in post 15:

But in the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30) we read that at the time of harvest the owner of the field will say, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” (Matthew 13:30)

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Matthew 13:40-42 refers to the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43, the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth will be created and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

Biblewriter said in post 15:

This is in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:10 that “the door was shut” after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.”

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Being ready for Jesus' second coming (Matthew 25:10, Matthew 24:44) does not have to do with whether or not one will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not one will lose one's salvation at that time. For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) at his second coming (Psalms 50:3-5, compare Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

Matthew 25:12's "I know you not" brings to mind Matthew 7:23a, which, in its context, Matthew 7:21-23, shows that both faith and actual obedience to God are required for believers to enter into ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24). But there is no assurance that they will choose to obey (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46).

Matthew 7:23a could be hyperbole (like, for example, Matthew 23:24b is hyperbole). For Matthew 7:22 could refer to saved people, believers in the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31), who had repented from their sins (1 John 3:6), and had truly performed many wonderful works for Jesus to the end (John 15:4-5). But at some point subsequent to their initial repentance they had fallen back into some unrepentant sin (Matthew 7:23b; 2 Peter 2:20-22), so that they had to be completely rejected by Jesus in the end despite their continued faith and good works (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 10:26-29).

Regarding the ability to cast out demons (Matthew 7:22), that is one of the signs that people are saved, that they are believers in the gospel (Mark 16:17).

Biblewriter said in post 15:

The Holy Spirit said “you know what is restraining.”

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When Paul says, regarding the restrainer, "now ye know what withholdeth" (2 Thessalonians 2:6), he was addressing the first century AD Thessalonians to whom he had previously explained everything in person (2 Thessalonians 2:5).

The restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit, because in the future, the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), whereas the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he's always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30). Also, there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome believers in the first century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10).

Biblewriter said in post 16:

In Revelation 3:10 the overcomers in Philadelphia are promised, “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”

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The seven epistles to seven churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to seven, literal, first century AD local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what's now Western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, first century AD, local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, first century AD, local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of ten literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The first century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the first century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself, or from the earth, in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself, or from the classroom, in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the first century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman Empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Biblewriter said in post 16:

So we see that the Holy Spirit is indicating that when He will “deliver the godly out of temptations,” He will do it by removing them from the scene ahead of time, as He did for Noah and Lot.

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Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 compare the Noah and Lot experience with what will happen at Jesus' second coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying will not happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the second coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, compare Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the second coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' second coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, compare Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of church to bring his second-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the second coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the second-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

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Biblewriter said in post 17:

But one scripture about our Lord’s return plainly teaches that “we” will be “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and another says “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.”

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No verse says that the church will be caught up by the Lord Himself, for it's his angels which will "gather together" the church (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1), which is the elect (Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:2).

Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same second coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same second coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

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Biblewriter said in post 18:

And we know He was addressing the Jews of that day, and not Christians, for He explicitly said “let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”

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Matthew 24 was addressed privately to only believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed to only believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation-rapture view admits that, for example, John 14 and Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21 can apply to those in the church today (for example, Luke 21:36, John 14:3), so the pre-tribulation-rapture view should admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Regarding Matthew 24:16, there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today, and they contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the earth (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Biblewriter said in post 20:

The scriptures indeed tell us that the Antichrist is coming. But that is not what they teach us to be looking for. Instead, they repeatedly say things like: “denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.” (Titus 2:12-14)

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The blessed hope (Titus 2:13) is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus himself is our hope (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can we have eternal life (John 3:36).

No Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' second coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for her birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

Biblewriter said in post 20:

“you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10)

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Regarding "the wrath to come" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), that refers to the same wrath as 1 Thessalonians 5:9, which refers to only that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they're killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b).

Nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be Satan's wrath working through evil men and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil men and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first five seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first four seals, the martyrs of the fifth seal ask God when he's going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the fifth seal foretells will happen sometime after the fifth seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the tribulation's seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the sixth seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the sixth seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's sixth seal will occur its seventh seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Nothing requires that any of the first six trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The fifth trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the sixth trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by four fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the six trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy a third of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause a third of the angels (his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the seven vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the seventh and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the second-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that second-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, compare Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Biblewriter said in post 20:

Will we choose to be among those that are watching for our master, or among the evil servants that say in their hearts, “my master is delaying his coming”?

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During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Christians will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' second coming (Matthew 25:13), which will not occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a Christian is not "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the second coming, it will take that Christian by surprise (compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that Christian will lose his salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

In Matthew 24:48-51, the evil servant became evil and was surprised by the Lord's return because when the Lord did not return sometime before or during the tribulation, the evil servant thought that the Lord was indefinitely "delaying" his return (Matthew 24:48). But in fact the Lord's return will not be delayed at all, but will occur "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, even when we know this truth, we still need to live each day knowing that any of us could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

yeshuasavedme said in post 28:

The Oracle of gathering together before the heavenly tabernacle doors to hear the instruction of YHWH through His High Priest and being called to that gathering together unto YHWH by the two heavenly trumpets sounding twice together, in rapid succession [as fast as the blinking of an eye], is in Numbers 10:1-7 . . .

According to the oracle of Leviticus 8, we are shut in the tabernacle for one full week, celebrating our consecration to the heavenly priesthood as adopted sons of the Firstborn and High Priest of earth, whose name is "Israel", not "Adam" [Isaiah 49]

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It's curious that the pre-tribulation rapture view would look to scriptures given to the twelve tribes of Israel in the time of Moses, in order to try to support itself, when at other times it's at such pains to try to claim that the twelve tribes of Israel have nothing to do with the church.

The truth is that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36), and all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

yeshuasavedme said in post 28:

The Oracle of gathering together before the heavenly tabernacle doors to hear the instruction of YHWH through His High Priest and being called to that gathering together unto YHWH by the two heavenly trumpets sounding twice together, in rapid succession [as fast as the blinking of an eye], is in Numbers 10:1-7 . . .

According to the oracle of Leviticus 8, we are shut in the tabernacle for one full week, celebrating our consecration to the heavenly priesthood as adopted sons of the Firstborn and High Priest of earth, whose name is "Israel", not "Adam" [Isaiah 49]

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Even though Numbers 10:1-7 and Leviticus 8 were given to the twelve tribes of Israel, and the church is the twelve tribes of Israel, nothing requires that Numbers 10:1-7 and Leviticus 8 are prophecies of the church's future, instead of simply commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law.

And on Jesus' cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the second covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18,19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus' New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there's no reason why any believer should ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after he had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before he brought that promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), whereas the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). Also, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices (e.g. Leviticus 23:19), whereas the New Covenant replaced those with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus (Hebrews 10).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:22-25), so that those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:22-31).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (including the letter of the ten commandments), written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8), was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14, and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8. The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it's still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), whereas the New Covenant is the ministration of the spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8,9b), which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits believers to remove the veil and to behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even believers in Jesus into thinking that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (Acts 15:1,5), or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any believers are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, thinking that they must do so in order to be saved, or in order to become perfect, then Jesus will profit them nothing; they have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

yeshuasavedme said in post 28:

The Oracle of gathering together before the heavenly tabernacle doors to hear the instruction of YHWH through His High Priest and being called to that gathering together unto YHWH by the two heavenly trumpets sounding twice together, in rapid succession [as fast as the blinking of an eye], is in Numbers 10:1-7 . . .

According to the oracle of Leviticus 8, we are shut in the tabernacle for one full week, celebrating our consecration to the heavenly priesthood as adopted sons of the Firstborn and High Priest of earth, whose name is "Israel", not "Adam" [Isaiah 49]

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Note that nothing in Numbers 10:1-7 or Leviticus 8 requires, even by type, that the rapture will occur before the tribulation, or that the rapture will take the church any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven), to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

But parts of the Old Covenant Mosaic tabernacle itself could have foreshadowed YHWH's New Covenant way of salvation (Jeremiah 31:31-34). The altar for animal sacrifices (Exodus 27:1, Exodus 29:12-13) could have foreshadowed Christ's New Covenant sacrifice (Matthew 26:28). The laver with its water (Exodus 30:18) could have foreshadowed water baptism (Acts 22:16). The menorah with its flames (Exodus 25:31,37) could have foreshadowed Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 1:5, Acts 2:3-4). The table with its shewbread (Exodus 25:23,30) could have foreshadowed communion (1 Corinthians 11:26). The altar for incense (Exodus 30:1) could have foreshadowed Christian prayer (compare Revelation 8:4). The ark of the covenant (Exodus 25:10, Numbers 10:33) with its mercy seat (Exodus 25:21) could have foreshadowed the establishment of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28) and Christians obtaining its mercy (Hebrews 4:16), unto eternal life (Jude 1:21).

At the same time, the tabernacle could have been a figurative model of the earth and its three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The tabernacle's courtyard could have represented the earth and its atmosphere, the first heaven (Genesis 1:20b). The tabernacle's holy place could have represented the second heaven, outer space (Deuteronomy 4:19). And the tabernacle's most holy place could have represented the third heaven spiritual realm (2 Corinthians 12:2b). In the tabernacle's courtyard, the altar (Exodus 27:1) could have represented the earth's land areas. The laver with its water (Exodus 30:18) could have represented the sea (compare also "the sea" part of the first temple: 1 Kings 7:23). And the veil between the courtyard and the holy place (Exodus 26:36) could have represented the atmosphere. The five pillars that held up that veil (Exodus 26:37) could have represented the five most powerful (now fallen) angelic princes who (before they were fallen) were assigned by God to rule the earth from its atmosphere/sky/air (Ephesians 6:12). The central of these five pillars could have represented Lucifer (Satan), "the prince of the power of the air" (Ephesians 2:2), while the other four pillars could have represented four of his most powerful lieutenants.

In the tabernacle's holy place, the seven lights (Exodus 25:37) could have represented the seven (moving) lights in outer space visible to the naked eye from the viewpoint of earth: the sun, the moon, the first planet from the sun, the second planet, the fourth planet, the fifth planet, and the sixth planet. The twelve loaves (Leviticus 24:5-6) could have represented the twelve constellations of the Mazzaroth (Job 38:32). At the same time, the seven lights (both in the tabernacle and in the sky) could have been patterned after the third heaven's "seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God" (Revelation 4:5b).

In the tabernacle's most holy place, the veil between the holy place and the most holy place (Exodus 26:33b) could have represented the line between outer space (space-time throughout the universe) and the third heaven spiritual realm. The four pillars that held up that veil (Exodus 26:32) could have represented the four dimensions of space-time, and the four fundamental forces of space-time (gravity, electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force, and the weak nuclear force), and the four possible states of matter in space-time (solid, liquid, gas, plasma), so that going past the four pillars could have represented going beyond space-time and into the third heaven spiritual realm. At the same time, all the different sets of four things referred to above could have been patterned after the third heaven's four beasts/seraphims (Revelation 4:8, Isaiah 6:2-3).

The vertical boards which formed the back wall of the tabernacle's most holy place included six boards (Exodus 26:22) of a regular width of 1.5 cubits (Exodus 26:16) plus two corner boards (Exodus 26:23) which each had to have been a third of the regular width, so that the width of the back wall would be ten cubits, equal to the ten-cubit height of the boards (Exodus 26:16), and equal to the ten-cubit length of the most holy place (this length being based on the tabernacle's top-covering curtains in Exodus 26:1-13 having been most likely coupled by the gold taches at the line between the holy place and the most holy place). That is, in order for the most holy place to have been a perfect cube, ten cubits (fifteen feet) on a side (similar to how the literal, heavenly city of New Jerusalem is a perfect cube, fifteen hundred miles on a side: Revelation 21:16), the back wall of the tabernacle had to have been formed by the equivalent of 6.66 regular-width boards.

That the back wall of the tabernacle's most holy place had, in effect, the number 6.66 connected with it could have represented the Antichrist's future rebellion. For the gematrial number of his personal name is 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). And he could break through the back wall of the third Jewish temple (which will be built) and he could then enter in that back way when he sits in the temple and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4. Daniel 11:36,31). He could take great delight in entering the temple's most holy place by this forced, "back way", for it would show his utter rejection of YHWH's way to eternal life, pictured by the tabernacle.

yeshuasavedme said in post 30:

The Law is the Schoolmaster that brings us to the Goal, which Goal is Christ.

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Amen (Galatians 3:24). But after we're given faith in Christ, we're no longer under the schoolmaster of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:25).

Also, the goal is indeed Christ himself, just as, by type, the door of the tabernacle of the congregation in Numbers 10:3 and Leviticus 8:3 is only Christ himself (John 10:7,9), just as Leviticus 8:7-9, by type, refers to only our high priest, which is only Christ himself (Hebrews 6:20). And it will be only at the rapture, which will be only after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), that the trumpet of Numbers 10:3, by type, will sound to gather together the church to Christ himself (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) where he will be at his 2nd coming, which will be in the clouds of the sky (the first heaven), on his way down to the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Zechariah 14:4). And Leviticus 8:33,35 can mean, by type, that the church won't depart from the physical presence of the returned Jesus on the earth for 7 literal days, which could be how long the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 will last.

And the marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after Jesus' 2nd coming and the resurrection and marriage of the church at that time (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the armies of the unsaved world defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

yeshuasavedme said in post 30:

The City of God has twelve gates of entry which are extremely large pearls, named for the twelve tribes of Israel. No one goes in but through those "pearly" gates.

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That's right.

Revelation 21:12 refers to Israel's twelve tribes in its description of the bride of Christ in Revelation 21:9. And the bride of Christ is the church (Ephesians 5:30-32; 2 Corinthians 11:2).

Revelation 21:2,9,10 means that the physical structure of the literal city of New Jerusalem is a picture of the church. Something can be literal and at the same time symbolically picture something else. For example, in Matthew 21:19, the fig tree was literal and at the same time its being without fruit symbolically pictured unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel being without fruit (Matthew 21:43).

Just as New Jerusalem's literal wall foundations have the names of the twelve apostles on them (Revelation 21:14), so the church's foundation is the apostles (Ephesians 2:20). And just as New Jerusalem's literal pearly gates have the names of Israel's twelve tribes on them (Revelation 21:12,21), so the church consists of Israel's twelve tribes (Romans 11:1,17,24, cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

New Jerusalem is a literal city fifteen hundred miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Revelation 21:21). It is God the Father's house in the third heaven (Revelation 21:2-3, compare 2 Corinthians 12:2b,4, Revelation 2:7b, Revelation 22:2,14), in which house Jesus left to prepare a place for the church (John 14:2). All those in the church, both Jews and Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and which only the church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant death on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), the very heart of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The church looks for Jesus' return from heaven (Philippians 3:20) and his setting up of his physical kingdom on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). New Jerusalem will not descend from the third heaven to the earth until after a new earth (that is, a new surface of the earth) has been created (Revelation 21:1-4), sometime after the thousand years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15). The church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

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God bless you, sister.

yeshuasavedme said:

No rants, please.
No attacking the messenger, please.
Attacking the messenger only shows your absence of Bible knowledge and understanding and your absolute refusal "to study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed".

The doctrine of the gathering together of the dead in Christ and the living in Christ saints in their regenerated bodies made for the glory is revealed by the Holy Spirit for those who study the living oracles for truth, which teach us the truths of God's one plan.

The gathering together unto Christ in heaven, before His heavenly tabernacle door, and entry in, is revealed in the Oracles which are the "Instructor/Teacher" of God's doctrine on His gathering of His people unto Himself, in heaven, and in new creation human being garments of priesthood; and gathered unto Him [in those garments typed in Leviticus 8] as adopted sons of God in the New Man name, so as to celebrate their week of consecration to the heavenly priesthood.

Numbers 10:1-7
Leviticus 8
Psalm 50
Psalm 75:2,3 -in Hebrew
Isaiah 26:19-21

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There is nothing in the bible that says that the rapture can't happen pre-trib. I personally am ARV, Anytime Rapture View.

Doug

Biblewriter said:

But I must add a word of caution. Although the Bible very explicitly states that there will be a rapture, it simply does not explicitly state when this will happen. All positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretations of the meanings of various scriptures. Pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath trib, and post trib are all interpretations of scripture, not scripture. While I am very decided in my position on the timing of the rapture, and while I am persuaded that a true understanding of scripture can lead to no other conclusion, I readily admit that this is an interpretation.

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James, you should consider adopting the ARV, Anytime Rapture View, a term I use to describe my view which is based on Luke 21:34-36.

The Anytime Rapture view is that a person be ready and watching for the Rapture to happen "anytime". Anytime is between now and when the Rapture happens.

As you pointed out, all of the (certain) timing views are based on the individuals interpretations of the scriptures as to when God's exact time for the rapture takes place. And from there, there is the never ending Rapture timing debates, because the (certain) timing views mandate that the Rapture can't happen except under the times constraints of those various views. Suppose a person is wrong in his interpretation?

The Anytime Rapture view eliminates all those restrictive timing debates by those timing views, for the holder of the Anytime Rapture view. The cornerstone of the Anytime Rapture view is to be ready and watching... for the Rapture to happen anytime between now and when it does.

Doug

yeshuasavedme said:

No rants, please.
No attacking the messenger, please.
Attacking the messenger only shows your absence of Bible knowledge and understanding and your absolute refusal "to study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed".

The doctrine of the gathering together of the dead in Christ and the living in Christ saints in their regenerated bodies made for the glory is revealed by the Holy Spirit for those who study the living oracles for truth, which teach us the truths of God's one plan.

The gathering together unto Christ in heaven, before His heavenly tabernacle door, and entry in, is revealed in the Oracles which are the "Instructor/Teacher" of God's doctrine on His gathering of His people unto Himself, in heaven, and in new creation human being garments of priesthood; and gathered unto Him [in those garments typed in Leviticus 8] as adopted sons of God in the New Man name, so as to celebrate their week of consecration to the heavenly priesthood.

Numbers 10:1-7
Leviticus 8
Psalm 50
Psalm 75:2,3 -in Hebrew
Isaiah 26:19-21

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Why would the Lord come from heaven to the clouds above the earth only to make a U turn and go back to heaven?

JLB

Douggg said:

There is nothing in the bible that says that the rapture can't happen pre-trib. I personally am ARV, Anytime Rapture View.

Doug

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Could you give the scripture for your view of "anytime"?


JLB

I wish everyone could do what BW did (in #33 above about the rapture) about futurism. Apparently I'm the only with with opinions. When BW speaks it is Bible.

JLB777 said:

Could you give the scripture for your view of "anytime"?


JLB

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Hi JLB, ARV is based primarily on just three verses.

Luke 21:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Douggg said:

Hi JLB, ARV is based primarily on just three verses.

Luke 21:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

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That scripture is referring to "anytime" your hearts be...

Not Jesus could return at anytime!

The very signs that Jesus gave us to show us when His return would take place, keep us from that Day overtaking us unexpectedly.


JLB