Did the early church fathers believe in the real precsence of Jesus in the Eucharist

T

Thekla

Guest
Her accusers weren't very aware of metaphor & so naturaly equated what they heard with some form of cannibalism.

Update:

Actually, the French language would not have developed at that time; France was largely Celtic (hence Gaul, historically speaking Gallic, a p-Celt language, and Latin) and maybe Franks (now French, the origin of both the French and German peoples).

The Celts were known by the Greeks to be masters of rhetoric; a rare complement given by the Greeks to any barbarian. Both Celts and Romans (their conquerors) would have been aware of metaphor - though this cannot perhaps be proven with the Gauls without extant writings.

Legal findings would more likely have been handled in Latin ( the language of the conquerors, and eventually the Gallic aristocracy), which has long used metaphor.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Not necessarily. The Latin Church is what it is, and the tendency to do things like making special crumb-less bread is a feature of being Latin. Belief in the Real Presence does not create that tendency, as you will not find that feature outside of Latin influence.

We use regular bread ( we make it ourselves on the local level and what not, but it's not a special "kind" of bread), we consecrate it, and we eat it, and we'll reserve some for the sick and bed-ridden so that they can consume it as well. Our belief in the Real Presence has not led to any tendencies like Eucharistic Adoration, the hyper-defining of Gifts, or anything of the sort. Again, it is not the belief that leads to those things; it is being Latin that leads to those things.
I think so, necessarily.
It isn't the result of a vague motivation, it is very specific. And the specific difference that frees "real presence" believers from the "crumbs of Jesus" dilema is difference between substance & presence.

Jesus has already declared Himself present where two or more are gathered, so the fact of His spiritual presence anywhere is no paradigm shift. The problem with real presence is it's redundancy when trying to localize it within the elements themselves.

We don't need to literaly eat Jesus & drink His blood. To do so would in fact be cannibalism as the Romans who accused Blandina, thought.
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I don't know that the Eucharist is *really* the body and blood of Jesus, but I do think Scripture is clear that that is how we're supposed to treat it.

I really think that in their reaction against Catholism too many Protestants have developed a very cavalier attitude about communion, and they justify it by saying "it's not really the body and blood - it's just symbolic." I've been in churches were they let toddlers take communion - toddlers who have no idea of the significance of it. Yet, we have the nerve to hate on Catholics for baptizing babies. I've been in services where they were just very flippant about the whole thing, talking, cracking jokes, etc. It's not right.
I agree that is too true.
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Update:

Actually, the French language would not have developed at that time; France was largely Celtic (hence Gaul, historically speaking Gallic, a p-Celt language, and Latin) and maybe Franks (now French, the origin of both the French and German peoples).

The Celts were known by the Greeks to be masters of rhetoric; a rare complement given by the Greeks to any barbarian. Both Celts and Romans (their conquerors) would have been aware of metaphor - though this cannot perhaps be proven with the Gauls without extant writings.

Legal findings would more likely have been handled in Latin ( the language of the conquerors, and eventually the Gallic aristocracy), which has long used metaphor.
Even English speaking people today are aware of & use metaphor.
That doesn't eliminate a lack of awareness & misuse by a less literate majority. And the articulations around this concern are not of lasting interest to the majority, in my opinion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sunlover1
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest
Even English speaking people today are aware of & use metaphor.
That doesn't eliminate a lack of awareness & misuse by a less literate majority. And the articulations around this concern are not of lasting interest to the majority, in my opinion.

Gaul (by that time) was conquered by the Romans; Latin was the lingua franca of legal and political action. The Gauls were not literate, but as the Greek attestation demonstrates, fully literary.
 
Upvote 0

Defensor Christi

Well-Known Member
Oct 25, 2012
2,202
75
Florida
✟18,281.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Defensor Christi

Well-Known Member
Oct 25, 2012
2,202
75
Florida
✟18,281.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Tertullian believed the bread as body of Christ was a figure, a symbol.


Really?

Tertullian:

"[T]here is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe whilst it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh which actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul may be cleansed . . . the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands [in confirmation], that the soul also may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God" (The Resurrection of the Dead 8 [A.D. 210]).
 
Upvote 0

Defensor Christi

Well-Known Member
Oct 25, 2012
2,202
75
Florida
✟18,281.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I understand your emotional investment in this, but please don't confuse my understanding of the eucharist metaphor with, & please don't be so obtuse as to compare it with, whatever you might imagine my understanding of anything else to be.
About the word mystery, I meant exactly what I said, especialy the part where I said I didn't mean it in a perjorative sense.
Surely you didn't mean to assault my dignity with provocatively impetuous assumptions.

Huh? :confused:
 
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟66,235.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Against those of the body as phantom (birth not of water and blood, 1Jn), bread crucified, and what Tertullian understood:

When He so earnestly expressed His desire to eat the passover, He considered it His own feast; for it would have been unworthy of God to desire to partake of what was not His own. Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, “This is my body,”50835083 Luke xxii. 19. [See Jewell’s Challenge, p. 266, supra.] that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there were first a veritable body.50845084 Corpus veritatis: meant as a thrust against Marcion’s Docetism. An empty thing, or phantom, is incapable of a figure. If, however, (as Marcion might say,) He pretended the bread was His body, because He lacked the truth of bodily substance, it follows that He must have given bread for us. It would contribute very well to the support of Marcion’s theory of a phantom body,50855085 Ad vanitatem Marcionis. [Note 9, p. 289.] that bread should have been crucified! But why call His body bread, and not rather (some other edible thing, say) a melon,50865086 Peponem. In his De Anima, c. xxxii., he uses this word in strong irony: “Cur non magis et pepo, tam insulsus.” which Marcion must have had in lieu of a heart! He did not understand how ancient was this figure of the body of Christ, who said Himself by Jeremiah: “I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter, and I knew not that50875087 [This text, imperfectly quoted in the original, is filled out by Dr. Holmes.] they devised a device against me, saying, Let us cast the tree upon His bread50885088 So the Septuagint in Jer. xi. 19, Ξύλον εἰς τὸν ἄρτον αὐτοῦ (A.V. “Let us destroy the tree with the fruit”). See above, book iii. chap. xix. p. 337. which means, of course, the cross upon His body. And thus, casting light, as He always did, upon the ancient prophecies,50895089 Illuminator antiquitatum. This general phrase includes typical ordinances under the law, as well as the sayings of the prophets. He declared plainly enough what He meant by the bread, when He called the bread His own body. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new testament to be sealed “in His blood,”50905090 Luke xxii. 20. affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body which is not a body of flesh. If any sort of body were presented to our view, which is not one of flesh, not being fleshly, it would not possess blood. Thus, from the evidence of the flesh, we get a proof of the body, and a proof of the flesh from the evidence of the blood.

ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,678
18,559
Orlando, Florida
✟1,262,020.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
Yes, the early Church Fathers believed in the "real presence". They did not have a problem accepting that a sign and a thing signified could be connected in a real way. So they literally believed when they received the breand and wine they received the Body and Blood of Christ, and not mere bread and wine.

How this happens in a mystery. The Swiss Reformer Zwingli was a humanist (and also very moralistic) and refused to take the idea of mystery seriously, prefering the simple explanation that the bread and wine were not truly the Body and Blood of Christ at all, in any sense.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Defensor Christi

Well-Known Member
Oct 25, 2012
2,202
75
Florida
✟18,281.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Against those of the body as phantom (birth not of water and blood, 1Jn), bread crucified, and what Tertullian understood:

When He so earnestly expressed His desire to eat the passover, He considered it His own feast; for it would have been unworthy of God to desire to partake of what was not His own. Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, “This is my body,”50835083 Luke xxii. 19. [See Jewell’s Challenge, p. 266, supra.] that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there were first a veritable body.50845084 Corpus veritatis: meant as a thrust against Marcion’s Docetism. An empty thing, or phantom, is incapable of a figure. If, however, (as Marcion might say,) He pretended the bread was His body, because He lacked the truth of bodily substance, it follows that He must have given bread for us. It would contribute very well to the support of Marcion’s theory of a phantom body,50855085 Ad vanitatem Marcionis. [Note 9, p. 289.] that bread should have been crucified! But why call His body bread, and not rather (some other edible thing, say) a melon,50865086 Peponem. In his De Anima, c. xxxii., he uses this word in strong irony: “Cur non magis et pepo, tam insulsus.” which Marcion must have had in lieu of a heart! He did not understand how ancient was this figure of the body of Christ, who said Himself by Jeremiah: “I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter, and I knew not that50875087 [This text, imperfectly quoted in the original, is filled out by Dr. Holmes.] they devised a device against me, saying, Let us cast the tree upon His bread50885088 So the Septuagint in Jer. xi. 19, Ξύλον εἰς τὸν ἄρτον αὐτοῦ (A.V. “Let us destroy the tree with the fruit”). See above, book iii. chap. xix. p. 337. which means, of course, the cross upon His body. And thus, casting light, as He always did, upon the ancient prophecies,50895089 Illuminator antiquitatum. This general phrase includes typical ordinances under the law, as well as the sayings of the prophets. He declared plainly enough what He meant by the bread, when He called the bread His own body. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new testament to be sealed “in His blood,”50905090 Luke xxii. 20. affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body which is not a body of flesh. If any sort of body were presented to our view, which is not one of flesh, not being fleshly, it would not possess blood. Thus, from the evidence of the flesh, we get a proof of the body, and a proof of the flesh from the evidence of the blood.

ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Perhaps I am dense...but I dont see your argument here. Tertullian is arguing against Docetism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Not against the real presence...maybe you could highlight your argument?
 
Upvote 0

Knee V

It's phonetic.
Sep 17, 2003
8,415
1,741
41
South Bend, IN
✟100,823.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Each of the four Gospel writers wanted to emphasize different things. Matthew, Mark, and Luke, being written in the same general time frame, approached their Gospels in similar ways, living within a similar general cultural and ecclesiastical environment.

John, however, was different. One reason for that was that he wrote decades later, within the Church's 3rd generation. But also, there were different things going on in the Church that he felt the need to address. One of things - and we see it more directly in his epistles - is the need to address Gnosticism as a serious threat to the Church. So while John experienced the same Christ as, say, Matthew, John needed to emphasize different aspects of Christ for his different audience, and in order to battle Gnosticism.

One feature of (certain kinds of) Gnosticism was the idea that the flesh is an illusion masking the true spiritual reality underneath. That is what prompted John to say in his first Epistle "Whoever denies that Christ is come in the flesh is a deceiver and an antichrist." But John's battle against Gnosticism is not limited to his Epistles; he does the same thing in the Gospels, but not polemically. Rather, he battles Gnosticism by emphasizing certain aspects of Christ's words and actions.

One instance of that is in John 6. In that passage he emphasizes Jesus insistence in the reality of Jesus' actual flesh and actual blood being what is consumed in the Eucharist. What John is essentially doing is saying, "Not only was Jesus' flesh not an illusion, it was so real, in fact, that we eat it." The reason that John calls attention to the reality of actually eating His actual flesh and His actual blood is to demonstrate that the reality of the Eucharist is a strong weapon against the Gnosticism of his day. So, in other words, we know that Jesus' flesh was not an illusion because it is truly present in the Eucharist, and Christ tells us as much, as John calls attention to in the 6th chapter of his Gospel.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,678
18,559
Orlando, Florida
✟1,262,020.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
A metphor is not literal.
And Jesus did not say "My presence is in the bread & wine."

The "metaphors" as you see it are really mysteries, they are things that cannot be reduced in complexity without distorting what they are.

Luke 22:19 "And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." I remember Christ's sacrifice at Calvary during communion which is what Christ commanded that we do. I don't see any "real presence" here just remembrance.

LST

"This is my body". It's amazing how people who otherwise are prone to taking the Bible literally assume this is mere metaphor just because its difficult to understand, and more perversely, it suits themselves to do so. This attitude has its origin in human self-will and pride, especially when it goes against 1500 years of tradition. We aren't talking about one issue of doctrine here, we are talking about a whole humanistic mindset that is a threat to the very heart of Christian faith and spiritual health.

The reason that John calls attention to the reality of actually eating His actual flesh and His actual blood is to demonstrate that the reality of the Eucharist is a strong weapon against the Gnosticism of his day. So, in other words, we know that Jesus' flesh was not an illusion because it is truly present in the Eucharist, and Christ tells us as much, as John calls attention to in the 6th chapter of his Gospel.

It still is a strong weapon against gnosticism. I don't think its coincidental that many liberal Protestants that flirt with the idea that the Resurrection was merely a metaphor also tend to think of salvation in gnostic terms- getting in touch with your true, authentic self, or realizing that you are just part of the divine. And there's an unhealthy interest in spiritual experiences, too. Gnosticism never really died, its one of the oldest heresies in Christendom and still going strong.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Defensor Christi

Well-Known Member
Oct 25, 2012
2,202
75
Florida
✟18,281.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
How do those that dont believe in the real presence interpret the following passage?


48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink
(John 6:48-55)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Historicus
Upvote 0

Cappadocious

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2012
3,885
860
✟30,661.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Book of Leviticus 24:5-9
"Then you shall take fine flour and bake twelve cakes with it; two-tenths of an ephah shall be in each cake. 'You shall set them in two rows, six to a row, on the pure gold table before the LORD. 'You shall put pure frankincense on each row that it may be a 'memorial' [Septuagint Greek: Anamnesin] portion for the bread, even an offering by fire to the LORD. 'Every sabbath day he shall set it in order before the LORD continually; it is an everlasting covenant for the sons of Israel. 'It shall be for Aaron and his sons, and they shall eat it in a holy place; for it is most holy to him from the LORD’S offerings by fire, his portion forever."

Epistle to the Hebrews 10:1-3
"For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those there is a 'reminder' [Greek: Anamnesis] of sins year by year."

Gospel of Luke 22:17-20
"And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, 'Take this and share it among yourselves; for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.' And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is My Body which is given for you; do this in 'remembrance' [Greek: Anamnesin] of Me.' And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, 'This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My Blood."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

seashale76

Unapologetic Iconodule
Dec 29, 2004
14,006
4,404
✟173,624.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Speaking of remembrance, it bears recalling the thief on the cross, who asked Christ to remember him when He came into His kingdom. Christ remembered him in a very literal way. He didn't tell the thief, 'I'll think of you fondly'. It is not simply a memorial.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums