Church culture and outsiders

timewerx · Feb 28, 2013

TravelerFarAwayFromHome said:
to make the whole thing even sadder, many of them never acknowledge their behavior are sin, they'll come up with all kind of excuses as to why what they are doing is not sin, ranging from, "oh i am not perfect, it does not count" to the down right pathetic " oh , the other is person is just so annoy ( in another word, it is not my fault at all, it is his fault".

Many churches nowadays doesn't make a big deal of sin anymore. After all, you can come back to God ask for forgiveness and He'll forgive you always....

....Besides, avoiding serious discussion of sin, helps member feel easy about themselves.

Just like watching movies whether it's comedy, suspense, or drama, or action, it's no big deal!

tgg · Feb 28, 2013

timewerx said:
The problem with modern churches is that most members live a double life.

They act holy inside the church but outside, they love and do the same things the unbelievers do that it's impossible to tell them apart from unbelievers....

...It is certainly frightening to mingle with people who are only acting as if they're hiding something so terrible like their true nature and true desires..

It's not gonna work! Holiness and worldliness cannot exist in one person, if it did, one is bound to be just an act. You cannot be either an undercover worldly or undercover Christian. The Truth must manifest in you. If you are ashamed of holiness outside the church, God will also be ashamed of you!

You said it! This is exactly the problem I have with 'organised Christianity'.

TravelerFarAwayFromHome · Mar 1, 2013

TheDag said:
this shows your attitude clearly. Not once did I even suggest not calling sin sin. You keep stating that you refuse to call sin not sin as a response. Why is that?[/quote]

shows my attitude clearly?

you are the one who keep insisting my refusal to not call sin as not sin as bashing other Christians?

on one hand, you says you did not suggest not call sin as sin, but when I do call sin as sin, you are accusing me of not following the scripture because I am bashing in an attempt to shut me up?

you know, a few years back I saw this disgusting video on Youtube, it was a news item that showed this primary school teacher, who was angry at something one of his student did, so he ended up beating this student so bad that broke the student spine and the student ended up paralysed.

Did he take any responsibility for his behaviour, apologize and willing to change?

NO

It got to a point where a member of parliament confronted him on camera, and he was as aggressive as ever, acted like he was the victim, it got to a point where the MP mocking tells him " I tell you what, I will apologize to you, and kneel down and kowtow to you, how about that huh?"

but then again, I am sure you would accuse the MP as well as anyone else who dare to confront a human garbage like this as unloving and bashing, correct?

Hidden101 · Mar 2, 2013

Your questions, well this was the reason why evangelical churches sprang up. They are meant to be more approachable to outsiders than your traditional churches. Approachable, by the reverends not wearing any special clothing, less formal services etc.

timewerx · Mar 4, 2013

Hidden101 said:
Your questions, well this was the reason why evangelical churches sprang up. They are meant to be more approachable to outsiders than your traditional churches. Approachable, by the reverends not wearing any special clothing, less formal services etc.

Sadly, this went beyond just clothing to actually compromising Truth... They watered down certain sins to be more appealing to sinners. It didn't bother them to adopt traditions that belonged to Satan. This means many of their members die with certain sins never repenting of these sins for they never knew they were sin in the first place. What made these worse is the general attitude of insincerity towards repenting of sins they do know. All these resting upon hopes that God's mercy overrides His nature of justice (judgement).

For all these reasons I have left Evangelical Christianity which I have been a member for 20 years. Only by God's grace He showed me the real Truth this time.

The Truth is you will be hated for preaching the Truth. People hated Jesus for preaching the Truth the fact they went as far to consign Him to the worst punishment of His time. John 15:18, John 7:7

tgg · Mar 5, 2013

timewerx said:
Sadly, this went beyond just clothing to actually compromising Truth... They watered down certain sins to be more appealing to sinners. It didn't bother them to adopt traditions that belonged to Satan. This means many of their members die with certain sins never repenting of these sins for they never knew they were sin in the first place. What made these worse is the general attitude of insincerity towards repenting of sins they do know. All these resting upon hopes that God's mercy overrides His nature of justice (judgement).

For all these reasons I have left Evangelical Christianity which I have been a member for 20 years. Only by God's grace He showed me the real Truth this time.

The Truth is you will be hated for preaching the Truth. People hated Jesus for preaching the Truth the fact they went as far to consign Him to the worst punishment of His time. John 15:18, John 7:7

People loved Jesus, they flocked to listen to him whenever he was preaching. It was the Pharisees, Romans and Saducees who hated him and wanted him put to death because they saw him as a political agitator.

Gandhi summed it up well when he once said: "I love your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. They are very much unlike him in many ways".

timewerx · Mar 7, 2013

tgg said:
People loved Jesus, they flocked to listen to him whenever he was preaching. It was the Pharisees, Romans and Saducees who hated him and wanted him put to death because they saw him as a political agitator.

Gandhi summed it up well when he once said: "I love your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. They are very much unlike him in many ways".

That's true. People with no affiliations and choose to minimize/eliminate their affiliations with the world (avoid materialism and the ways of this world) would love Jesus naturally.

But note, the Roman Empire is a system. It is the world system that God detests. It is the same system that shed the blood of the Prophets, Jesus, manifested itself as Babylon, Ancient Egyptian Civilization, Islamic empires, large organized religions, and now, the whole world itself. We now call it "The Modern Civilization." The Bible still calls it "Babylon". The central theme among these world systems is the accumulation of wealth and acting in disobedience against God.... ...Their god is money/gold which is also Satan.

The reason I'm pointing this out is because you mentioned "people". Unfortunately, most people nowadays are now sold out to this world... They have this invisible mark saying they are "citizens of the world empire" which is none other than Roman empire, Babylon, etc..

People who does not identify themselves with the world system and would naturally love Jesus are sadly very few nowadays and extremely hard to find!

LottyH · Mar 29, 2013

Hi,

I live in Perth too and can completely relate to your post. And its not just Perth... I have lived in different places over the world and visited many churches. I am not anti-church, but I haven't been to church regularly for a long time. The most important thing is seek the truth about Jesus, who He is and what He wants from you - it may sound clichéd but I cant think of any other way to put it. I have come to a greater knowledge of the gospel in the last few years since its been just me and God. But I do like to talk to people about God and connect with like-minded Christians - that's what church is meant to be about. I'm curious what hope you've been getting along in the last couple of years since you wrote the post??

LottyH · Apr 1, 2013

TravelerFarAwayFromHome said:
TheDag said:

this shows your attitude clearly. Not once did I even suggest not calling sin sin. You keep stating that you refuse to call sin not sin as a response. Why is that?[/quote]

shows my attitude clearly?

you are the one who keep insisting my refusal to not call sin as not sin as bashing other Christians?

on one hand, you says you did not suggest not call sin as sin, but when I do call sin as sin, you are accusing me of not following the scripture because I am bashing in an attempt to shut me up?

you know, a few years back I saw this disgusting video on Youtube, it was a news item that showed this primary school teacher, who was angry at something one of his student did, so he ended up beating this student so bad that broke the student spine and the student ended up paralysed.

Did he take any responsibility for his behaviour, apologize and willing to change?

NO

It got to a point where a member of parliament confronted him on camera, and he was as aggressive as ever, acted like he was the victim, it got to a point where the MP mocking tells him " I tell you what, I will apologize to you, and kneel down and kowtow to you, how about that huh?"

but then again, I am sure you would accuse the MP as well as anyone else who dare to confront a human garbage like this as unloving and bashing, correct?

Click to expand...

Sorry, I replied to your original post before reading your above post along with a whole load of posts (still a bit new here..). I really can't believe some Christians think sin doesn't matter because we can just ask for forgiveness. There seems to be a serious lack of teaching about sin and repentance in churches.

TravellerFarAwayFromHome you are not as far away as you might think. I believe God is really working in Christians like you. As for me, I am just seeking the truth and have had to really go back to basics, pretty much throw out everything I have been told about Christianity and start again, just me with the bible and Jesus. Can I be taught by other people? Sure, but who can you trust as everyone with differing opinions all think they are right? And every single one can be backed up with scriptures so you need to know what the whole bible says not just bits of it. God can and does speak to individual Christians through the scriptures, its important for everyone to know this rather than relying on other Christians to give them answers. But its also good to talk, that's why I've joined this CF. Hang in there! I'm praying for you

LottyH · Apr 1, 2013

timewerx said:
Sadly, this went beyond just clothing to actually compromising Truth... They watered down certain sins to be more appealing to sinners. It didn't bother them to adopt traditions that belonged to Satan. This means many of their members die with certain sins never repenting of these sins for they never knew they were sin in the first place. What made these worse is the general attitude of insincerity towards repenting of sins they do know. All these resting upon hopes that God's mercy overrides His nature of justice (judgement).

For all these reasons I have left Evangelical Christianity which I have been a member for 20 years. Only by God's grace He showed me the real Truth this time.

The Truth is you will be hated for preaching the Truth. People hated Jesus for preaching the Truth the fact they went as far to consign Him to the worst punishment of His time. John 15:18, John 7:7

I totally agree with you! I've just realised your other post about 'sinning and just asking forgiveness' wasn't something you were seriously condoning...

timewerx · Apr 5, 2013

LottyH said:
Hi,

I live in Perth too and can completely relate to your post. And its not just Perth... I have lived in different places over the world and visited many churches. I am not anti-church, but I haven't been to church regularly for a long time. The most important thing is seek the truth about Jesus, who He is and what He wants from you - it may sound clichéd but I cant think of any other way to put it. I have come to a greater knowledge of the gospel in the last few years since its been just me and God. But I do like to talk to people about God and connect with like-minded Christians - that's what church is meant to be about. I'm curious what hope you've been getting along in the last couple of years since you wrote the post??

Yes, God's true Church is one made of God's Words, not by masonry or wood or metal built by man.

Ironically, I too have learned more alone with God when circumstances got me out of 'worldly churches' and I can't attend regularly for a long time.

It's like a rehabilitation from wrong beliefs that you can learn nothing properly outside of other matured Christians when John 16:13 and 1 John 2:27 speaks otherwise. ^_^

LottyH · Apr 5, 2013

timewerx said:
Yes, God's true Church is one made of God's Words, not by masonry or wood or metal built by man.

Ironically, I too have learned more alone with God when circumstances got me out of 'worldly churches' and I can't attend regularly for a long time.

It's like a rehabilitation from wrong beliefs that you can learn nothing properly outside of other matured Christians when John 16:13 and 1 John 2:27 speaks otherwise.

Great scriptures!

TheDag · Apr 5, 2013

timewerx said:
Yes, God's true Church is one made of God's Words, not by masonry or wood or metal built by man.

Ironically, I too have learned more alone with God when circumstances got me out of 'worldly churches' and I can't attend regularly for a long time.

It's like a rehabilitation from wrong beliefs that you can learn nothing properly outside of other matured Christians when John 16:13 and 1 John 2:27 speaks otherwise.

That just means you haven't found a good group of believers. Only one church i have attended didn't like questions and even then you could still question things including the teaching.

Yeah the church is not a building but just going alone ignores biblical instruction to not forsske meeting with other believers.

StormHawk · Apr 6, 2013

LottyH said:
... The most important thing is seek the truth about Jesus, ...

Many people have never actually been to a church like the one Jesus set up, where all members have received his Spirit, with the new prayer language whereby God ministers his love joy & peace "that passes understanding", and where the gifts and ministries are operated in an orderly way so there is clear vision and unity (1 Cor. 14).

I had been to various churches, deeply traditional, traditional were they raised hands and got involved in community works, and "charismatic" / "pentecostal" groups but there was never the fire of God in the belly I found with those that just do it the original way, even though they stand separate from the others and are referred to as a sect (what's new!)

Why not come and see for yourself, we are in Perth (though I'm near London).

LottyH · Apr 6, 2013

StormHawk said:
Many people have never actually been to a church like the one Jesus set up, where all members have received his Spirit, with the new prayer language whereby God ministers his love joy & peace "that passes understanding", and where the gifts and ministries are operated in an orderly way so there is clear vision and unity (1 Cor. 14).

I had been to various churches, deeply traditional, traditional were they raised hands and got involved in community works, and "charismatic" / "pentecostal" groups but there was never the fire of God in the belly I found with those that just do it the original way, even though they stand separate from the others and are referred to as a sect (what's new!)

Why not for yourself, we are in Perth (though I'm near London).

Hi StormHawk, thanks for the info - I had a look your link for the Revival Church, I guess the particular individuals that make up a church make all the difference. I like fellowship with Christians but I'm not seeking church attendance as such. Thanks for the invite though

StormHawk · Apr 6, 2013

LottyH said:
Hi StormHawk, thanks for the info - I had a look your link for the Revival Church, I guess the particular individuals that make up a church make all the difference. I like fellowship with Christians but I'm not seeking church attendance as such.

"Fellowship" originally meant common union, appreciating what union with God means both for the individual Christian in the world and for relationships with others who have that union. I short, sharing and growing in the love of God.

"Follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts ... If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 14)

"Church attendance" isn't the goal, active participation to fulfil your potential and in so doing, that of others is. The various gifts and ministries and activities are given for that reason.

You say: "The most important thing is seek the truth about Jesus, who He is and what He wants from you"
I agree, and go further by saying that he wants all Christians, (all people that have received what the disciples received in Acts 2 -the love of God, not just human love), to see the church he set up as his family and you love, serve and follow Jesus by building this church.

Jesus' teachings to this end are innumerable ...

"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches:" John 15:4-5

"there shall be one fold, and one shepherd ... Feed my lambs" (John 10, 21:15)

I know we are doing it, that makes a difference that Jesus is looking for.

LottyH · Apr 7, 2013

StormHawk said:
"Fellowship" originally meant common union, appreciating what union with God means both for the individual Christian in the world and for relationships with others who have that union. I short, sharing and growing in the love of God.

"Follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts ... If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 14)

"Church attendance" isn't the goal, active participation to fulfil your potential and in so doing, that of others is. The various gifts and ministries and activities are given for that reason.

You say: "The most important thing is seek the truth about Jesus, who He is and what He wants from you"
I agree, and go further by saying that he wants all Christians, (all people that have received what the disciples received in Acts 2 -the love of God, not just human love), to see the church he set up as his family and you love, serve and follow Jesus by building this church.

Jesus' teachings to this end are innumerable ...

"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches:" John 15:4-5

"there shall be one fold, and one shepherd ... Feed my lambs" (John 10, 21:15)

I know we are doing it, that makes a difference that Jesus is looking for.

Hi StormHawk, your interaction with me is also considered fellowship as we are both Christians and you are sharing your faith, quoting scriptures for encouragement/edification. I came on this thread to give Hirowla support as I have many of the same issues as well as other thoughts about this topic. To discuss it further with you is probably more appropriate in private however saying that I really don't want to discourage people who are currently happy with church.

TheDag · Apr 7, 2013

One other comment. Don't use the "Jesus wasn't popular" line as a copout. Jesus was very popular mist of the time. crowds followed him everywhere. how else did he end up with a crowd of 5000 men to feed???? Yes he did a few things that were unpopular but for most if his ministry he was popular. yed the crowd was stirred up to ask for barabas to be set free but it was jewish leaders who plotted for his death and influenced things so the crowd was given that choice. Most of the time when people use that line it is nothing more than an excuse to be rude to people

timewerx · Apr 11, 2013

TheDag said:
That just means you haven't found a good group of believers. Only one church i have attended didn't like questions and even then you could still question things including the teaching.

Yeah the church is not a building but just going alone ignores biblical instruction to not forsske meeting with other believers.

Yes that is true but note, I've been through many different churches under different organizations across three continents.

However, I was limited under Pentecostal, Evangelical, and on few occasions, Baptist churches.

Sadly, out of the thousand Christians I may have come across in person, I have seen only one person who actually takes the teachings of Jesus seriously, and despise the teachings of the world.

TheDag said:
One other comment. Don't use the "Jesus wasn't popular" line as a copout. Jesus was very popular mist of the time. crowds followed him everywhere. how else did he end up with a crowd of 5000 men to feed????

If you read the whole John 6, most of those 5000 men quit following Jesus for they can no longer tolerate the Truth. They did this out of their own convictions and hostility against God's Words, not because someone else influenced them.

While it's true, Jesus is quite well-known, only few seem to appreciate Him for who He is. Many appreciate Jesus only for what He can do for them (John 6:26-27). And to many others, Jesus is popular to them as a false prophet/messiah like the Pharisees and to many Jews.

Jesus is popular but not in a good way to many people.

If most people stood by Him, there's no way He would be crucified as Pontius Pilate was only acting to appease his subjects (to avoid a bloody rebellion) and if not for his deluded subjects, he would have chosen to set Jesus free.

Being influenced is not an excuse. If anyone truly loved Jesus, they would have stood by Him even 'til death. This is a concept that was later on understood by His disciples which later paid with their lives for the Truth.

TheDag · Apr 11, 2013

timewerx said:
Yes that is true but note, I've been through many different churches under different organizations across three continents.

However, I was limited under Pentecostal, Evangelical, and on few occasions, Baptist churches.

Sadly, out of the thousand Christians I may have come across in person, I have seen only one person who actually takes the teachings of Jesus seriously, and despise the teachings of the world.

If you read the whole John 6, most of those 5000 men quit following Jesus for they can no longer tolerate the Truth. They did this out of their own convictions and hostility against God's Words, not because someone else influenced them.

While it's true, Jesus is quite well-known, only few seem to appreciate Him for who He is. Many appreciate Jesus only for what He can do for them (John 6:26-27). And to many others, Jesus is popular to them as a false prophet/messiah like the Pharisees and to many Jews.

Jesus is popular but not in a good way to many people.

If most people stood by Him, there's no way He would be crucified as Pontius Pilate was only acting to appease his subjects (to avoid a bloody rebellion) and if not for his deluded subjects, he would have chosen to set Jesus free.

Being influenced is not an excuse. If anyone truly loved Jesus, they would have stood by Him even 'til death. This is a concept that was later on understood by His disciples which later paid with their lives for the Truth.

yes many did walk away later but the point i was making was that for a lot of the time he was popular yet many use the verse saying you will be hated because of jesus to justify themselves behaving like complete jerks. even when the crowd turned against jesus we see jesus being polite not a jerk. that is a important point many who claim to be hated shoukd consider. i have never once had someone hate me because of my beliefs even though they most certainly hated my beliefs.

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