Calling All Calvinist/Reformed Christians!

Clare73 · Oct 23, 2012

Evergreen48 said:
God knows in advance what is going to happen, but the reason he knows what is going to happen is not because he has decreed that it shall happen. Many things that God knows in advance that are going to happen are not necessarily decreed by him. There is a difference between his knowing what is going to happen and his decreeing that it shall happen. For instance, God said, "Thou shalt not kill". But he knew in advance that many would break his holy law by killing their fellow human beings. But
to say that God decreed that one should kill another person takes away human free will and makes God the killer. That's not by God.

Well, the Bible presents God as sovereign.

It presents everything that happens as according to his secret and all-wise counsels (Da 11:36; Ac 3:18),
determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created (Mt 25:34; Eph 1:4; Rev 13:8, 17:8).

The Bible does not present God's will as being thwarted by man (2Chr 20:6; Job 9:12, 42:2; Is 14:27).
Nor does it present God's plans as being conditioned on or determined by the actions of men (Ex 9:16; Ac 4:28).
And it does not present God as sustaining loss due to the actions of men (Jn 6:37; Ac 13:48; Mt 5:26).

The Bible does not present God as permitting what happens
(Ex 4:21, 9:16; 1Sa 18:10; 2Sa 24:1, 10; 1Kgs 22;23; Job 12:16; Eze 14:9; Da 4:25).

Nor does it present him as unwillingly granting what he does not wish to happen
(Ex 4:11b; Dt 32:39; 1Sa 2:7; 1Kgs 11:14, 23, 12:15, 24; Job 1:12; Is 45:7, 53:10, 54:16;
Jer 44:27-28; Lam 3:38; Amos 3:6; Zec 11:16; Mt 10:29; Jn 9:2-3).

Rather, the Bible presents God as ordaining or decreeing everything that happens (Lam 3:37),
down to the last detail (Ps 50:11, 139:16, 147:4; Mt 10:30).

So it is man that presents God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do.
The Bible everywhere presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do

(Ge 20:6; Ex 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Dt 2:25, 30; Jos 11:20; 1Sa 10:9; 1Chr 5:26; 2Chr 10:15;
Ezra 1:1, 5, 7:27; Ne 2:12, 7:5; Pr 21:1; Jer 34:22, 46:15, 50:9, 51:1; Da 1:9; Hag 1:14;
Zec 8:10; Jn 6:37; Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; 2Co 8:16; Rev 17:17).

So what about free will?

Biblical free will is the ability to choose voluntarily, according to one's preferences, without external constraint.
God exercises his sovereignty over mankind, not by compelling their acts or wills contrary to their preferences or dispositions, but by operating in and through their dispositions, to which their wills freely respond.
So God's absolute sovereignty is not inconsistent with the free will of mankind, because mankind still acts voluntarily according to his wishes and desires, he still voluntarily chooses to do what he prefers.

And then for the Biblical answer to man's objection to this absolute sovereignty of God, see Ro 9:19-21.

In the faith,
Clare

Evergreen48 · Oct 28, 2012

Clare73 said:
Well, the Bible presents God as sovereign.

Yes, he is that. but what he is able to do and what he does do are two different things.

It presents everything that happens as according to his secret and all-wise counsels (Da 11:36; Ac 3:18),

Dan. 11:36. "And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done."

Acts 3:18. "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled."

Did God predetermine that Israel would come to its final destruction at a specific time? (Daniel 11:36 is part of a prophecy concerning that particular thing) Yes he did, but this scripture in no way speaks that God has decreed EVERYTHING that happens. And it in no way implies that his intent toward this was secret in any way, for if it were secret he never would have sent the prophets to inform them that this was to happen.

God did send prophets to tell about Christ's suffering. But again that in no way implies that Christ, sufferings were a decree from God. Did God foreknow what would happen to his Son when he sent him among men? Yes, God has foreknowledge of everything. But God did not decree these things to happen to his Son.

GOD DOES NOT HAVE TO DECREE THAT MAN DO WICKEDNESS. MANKIND IS FULLY CAPABLE OF DOING WICKEDLY ALL BY HIMSELF.

But God does sometimes have a purpose for ALLOWING the wicked acts of men to take place. And in the case of what men did to Jesus he did have a purpose in allowing it. Surely we see what his purpose was!

determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created (Mt 25:34; Eph 1:4; Rev 13:8, 17:8).

I don't believe that we can say that there is an "eternity past" with God, because all things are, and have always been, and will ever be, before the eyes of God at all times. That God did predetermine that some things would come to pass is true enough, but he only predetermined, thus decreeing, that certain things would come to pass in order that he would accomplish a specific purpose that he had in mind. For instance, if God had not determined to call out and make a nation out of a specific people to be his church, so to keep his holy name alive on the earth until he was ready to bring forth his holy Son, Jesus, from among this people, this surely would not have happened on its own, and by now mankind would be lost forever. But the scriptures do NOT teach that God chose and predestined anyone to have a home in heaven one day (some call that being chosen and predestined to salvation). That is not what he elected or chose them out for. That remains as it has always been since mankind's beginning. If anyone would move into immortality; eternal life, they must do so through Jesus Christ the Savior "by patient continuance in well doing, seek[ing] for glory and honour and immortality" (Rom. 2:7). If God had not chosen and predetermined, even hand picked we might say, those who would receive, and believe on Jesus as the Savior of the *world* even from the Gentiles also, if he had not opened their hearts and minds by EXTRAORDINARY (that which is above and beyond his 'normal') operations of grace, the whole of mankind would by now, once again, be dead to his spiritual 'movings' and lost beyond repair. But we thank him and praise him that he did choose some and open their hearts and minds by EXTRAORDINARY means, who would be responsible for the beginning of the heralding of the good news of his kingdom down through the ages so that his holy name and his holy laws would stay alive on earth, and that we out here in this day and time, and even beyond us for as long as mankind exists, would know the path to immortality or eternal life which is through our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

As to choosing and predestining before the foundations of the world was laid, since it has already been discovered that there is no such thing as 'eternity past' with God, it would be necessary to examine the aspect of when the foundation of the world was laid, and what the foundation was, and it would be needful also to give some thought to what world is being addressed in these scriptures. (Mt. 25:34, Eph. 1:4 and Rev. 13:8, Rev. 17:8.) We have at least two worlds mentioned in the New Testament. We have oikoumené which meant the inhabited (Roman) world, and we have kosmos which many times in our New Testament writings meant nothing more than the Jewish polity at that time. These were those of God's special people from the kingdom of Judah who had returned to their homeland after having been freed from the the Babylonian captivity. They had built their kingdom up again and had built the magnificent temple in Jerusalem. But They were again finally conquered by Rome in 65 BC. Although they had been conquered by Rome they were allowed independence for the most part, and were able to continue their religious practices through their beautiful temple.
I am not learned enough in the Greek language to be able to tell why they were referred to many times, even by Jesus himself, as the kosmos. But looking at the Greek word kosmos - which is from the base of komizo - [ "to bear, to carry" - "Short Definition: I bring, receive, recover]t

Definition: (a) act: I convey, bring, carry, (b) mid: I receive back, receive what has belonged to myself but has been lost, or else promised but kept back, or: I get what has come to be my own by earning, recover.], I can understand perhaps in a small way, why this people was referred to as the kosmos, but I have no idea why it was translated as "world" in our English language, any more than I can see why the Greek word aión which means 'a space of time or an age" was translated into our English language as 'world'. But be that as it may, we know that the 'world' which is spoken of in the passages is not the earth, its occupants and all else that it holds, but that it speaks to a particular group of people ___ namely the Jews, those from whom our Savior came, and to whom he was first sent. Besides it should be obvious that if the writers meant to say that it was before the foundation of the earth was laid, the word ' gé ' would have been used instead of the word kosmos. So, if the foundations of this *world* was not laid before the foundation of the literal earth was laid, even if it had one, must mean that it was laid afterwards; that foundation being Jesus the Christ who is the fulfillment every holy law that was handed down to that chosen people after he had called and delivered them out of Egypt.

The Bible does not present God's will as being thwarted by man (2Chr 20:6; Job 9:12, 42:2; Is 14:27).
Nor does it present God's plans as being conditioned on or determined by the actions of men (Ex 9:16; Ac 4:28).
And it does not present God as sustaining loss due to the actions of men (Jn 6:37; Ac 13:48; Mt 5:26).

No argument.

The Bible does not present God as permitting what happens

(Ex 4:21, 9:16; 1Sa 18:10; 2Sa 24:1, 10; 1Kgs 22;23; Job 12:16; Eze 14:9; Da 4:25).

The scriptures most certainly do present God as sometimes permitting what happens, but we who have faith in his omnipotence know that he always has a purpose in permitting or allowing some unfavorable things to happen. A good case in point would be his interactions with Pharoah.

Nor does it present him as unwillingly granting what he does not wish to happen
(Ex 4:11b; Dt 32:39; 1Sa 2:7; 1Kgs 11:14, 23, 12:15, 24; Job 1:12; Is 45:7, 53:10, 54:16;
Jer 44:27-28; Lam 3:38; Amos 3:6; Zec 11:16; Mt 10:29; Jn 9:2-3).

Well, I don't know so much about that. Doesn't 2 Peter 3:9 teach that he was NOT willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance? Yet we see that many, many of these people did perish at his Son Jesus' coming in his final judgement in 70 A.D on those who had once been his beloved nation. (which is the 'coming' that is spoken of in this passage of scriptures.)

Rather, the Bible presents God as ordaining or decreeing everything that happens (Lam 3:37),
down to the last detail (Ps 50:11, 139:16, 147:4; Mt 10:30).

That which he ordains or decrees is indeed 'worked out' with preciseness.

So it is man that presents God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do.
The Bible everywhere presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do

(Ge 20:6; Ex 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Dt 2:25, 30; Jos 11:20; 1Sa 10:9; 1Chr 5:26; 2Chr 10:15;
Ezra 1:1, 5, 7:27; Ne 2:12, 7:5; Pr 21:1; Jer 34:22, 46:15, 50:9, 51:1; Da 1:9; Hag 1:14;
Zec 8:10; Jn 6:37; Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; 2Co 8:16; Rev 17:17).

Yes, we have already concluded that if God has a specific purpose to accomplish or in acting to protect those he loves from harm he does SOMETIMES 'interject' thoughts and ideas into the minds of people, which causes them NOT to do what they would have done had he not acted providently. But we have also concluded that these actions from him are not his 'ordinary' role, and he always has a special purpose in mind when he does such.

And for the Biblical answer to man's objection to this absolute sovereignty of God, see Ro 9:19-21.

Man's objection to the absolute sovereignty of God is not the context of Rom. 9. dcyates explains it well.

dcyates said:
As for Romans 9.17 (and practically the entire chapter for that matter), let me begin by confessing that I'm always uneasy whenever I see somebody drawing a theological conclusion based on virtually any text from Romans. It's a notoriously unwieldy letter with numerous rabbit trails, all kinds of archaic rhetorical devices employed, complex and nearly impenetrable arguments, and untold translation difficulties out of all proportion to its popularity (I seriously can't count how many Bible study groups in which I've been involved in one way or another where Romans was inevitably chosen as the book to study.)

So, with that in mind, as far as I'm concerned, to properly and most accurately understand its intent, it's of especial importance when it comes to Romans that we always rely on Paul's own summary of his argument -- if he gives one. And fortunately for us, in this instance he does. With v. 30 Paul begins his summation by asking, "So, what are we to say then?"

Now, if the way Calvinists interpret Romans 9 is correct, Paul would have answer his rhetorical question with something along the lines of: "God is sovereign and he alone determines who will be elect and who will not, and no one has the right to question him." However, Paul's answer is nothing like this. Rather, he summarizes his argument by concluding:

"So, what are we to say? This: that Gentiles, even though they were not striving for righteousness, have obtained righteousness; but it is a righteousness grounded in faith! However, Israel, even though they kept pursuing a law that offers righteousness, did not reach what the Law offers. Why? Because they did not pursue righteousness as being grounded in faith, but instead as if it were grounded in doing legalistic works."

In other words, Paul explains everything he's been talking about in this chapter by appealing to the morally responsible choices of both Jews and Gentiles. The Jews didn't "strive" by faith, though they should have (cf. Rom 10.3), but rather chose to put their faith in their own works. This theme is found throughout Rom 9-11. For instance, Paul later explains that as a nation the Jews "were broken off because of their unbelief" (11.20).

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This is a great piece.

Clare73 · Oct 28, 2012

Evergreen48 said:
Did God predetermine that Israel would come to its final destruction at a specific time? (Daniel 11:36 is part of a prophecy concerning that particular thing) Yes he did, but
this scripture in no way speaks that God has decreed EVERYTHING that happens. And it in
no way implies that his intent toward this was secret in any way, for if it were secret he never would have sent the prophets to inform them that this was to happen.

I presented Da 11:36 for only one reason, to show that the destruction of Israel was ordained by God himself, and not apart from him, as one of several examples that everything is according to his secret and all-wise counsel.

God did send prophets to tell about Christ's suffering. But again that in no way implies that Christ, sufferings were a decree from God. Did God foreknow what would happen to his Son when he sent him among men? Yes, God has foreknowledge of everything. But God did not decree these things to happen to his Son.

Scripture disagrees:

"Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant (child) Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided before hand should happen." (Ac 4:28)

I don't believe that we can say that there is an "eternity past" with God, because all things are, and have always been, and will ever be, before the eyes of God at all times.

"Eternity past" is simpy a way to say "before the foundations/creation of the world" (Eph 1:4).

As to choosing and predestining before the foundations of the world was laid, since it has already been discovered that there is no such thing as 'eternity past' with God, it would be necessary to examine the aspect of when the foundation of the world was laid, and what the foundation was,

That is not orthodox Christianity.

The scriptures most certainly do present God as sometimes permitting what happens,

Please present two examples and explain how they were permitted instead of decreed/ordained.

Yes,we have already concluded that if God has a specific purpose to accomplish or in

acting to protect those he loves from harm he does SOMETIMES 'interject' thoughts and ideas into the minds of people,

Review the Biblical testimony regarding Pharoah in Ex 4:21 (before Moses ever went to Egypt)
and in Ro 9:14-18.

It's not about protecting those he loves from harm.

Man's objection to the absolute sovereignty of God is not the context of Rom. 9.

Ro 9:19-21 is about that objection.
And Ro 9:14-18 states the sovereignty of God to which man objects.

In the faith,
Clare

Evergreen48 · Oct 30, 2012

Clare73 said:
I presented Da 11:36 for only one thing, to show that the destruction of Israel was ordained by God himself, and not apart from him, as one of several examples of this prinicple.

The impression that was left was that it was supposed to be a proof text for the following comment that EVERYTHING that happens has been decreed by God.:

Clare73 said:
It presents everything that happens as according to his secret and all-wise counsels (Da 11:36; Ac 3:18),

Agreed it can be used as one example of when God has decreed that a particular event will happen, but it does not serve as an example that EVERY event that comes to pass has been decreed by God. There are scriptural instances showing that God does sometimes wait to see the outcome of some dilemma or other before he reacts. If we believe that God is truly omniscient, and that ALL things are possible with him, then we will believe that he can see and not see both at the same time, and that he can know and not know both at the same time. Do you believe that?

Evergreen48 said:
Evergreen48 said:

God did send prophets to tell about Christ's suffering. But again that in no way implies that Christ, sufferings were a decree from God. Did God foreknow what would happen to his Son when he sent him among men? Yes, God has foreknowledge of everything. But God did not decree these things to happen to his Son.

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Clare73 said:

]Scripture disagrees:

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Clare73 said:
Clare73 said:

"Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant (child) Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided before hand should happen."

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(Ac 4:28)

It was not the murder of Jesus that was foreordained by God. It was the gathering together, and the people involved; namely and foremost the people of Israel, who gathered together with the rulers and the Gentiles (Romans) against Jesus, that was foreordained by God, for they did what his power and will had decided before hand would be done, which was conspiring against God and his anointed.

God, as he did at other times and other events, for his own purpose, simply put his stamp of approval on something that he foreknew was going to take place anyway. But he did not put his 'stamp of approval' on what these wicked men did to our Lord, nor did he decree that such would happen.God would never decree that such a horrendous crime would be committed against any innocent, let alone his Son Jesus. And to claim that those who were guilty of this crime against Jesus, or any other persons who were innocent, were doing the will of God, is absurd and it lacks reverence for God.

David, God's prophet from whose mouth often came words which referred to Jesus had spoken of this very counsel of the people of Israel with the rulers and the Romans to take counsel against Jesus. This is referred to by the apostle in the 25th verse of the chapter:

Acts 4: 25. "Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? 26.The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

Psalms 2:1 "Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing ? 2. The kings of the earth set themselves and the rulers take counsel together against the LORD and against his anointed saying 3. Let us break their bands asunder and cast away their cords from us . 4. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh, the Lord shall have them in derision. 5. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath and vex them in his sore displeasure."

[And this was all fulfilled in 70 A.D. when God set apart (holy) the Roman Armies and sent them to destroy the holy city and its wicked inhabitants, which most of those who had conspired against Jesus were still alive, and they perished in this onslaught of terror at that time.] ( Ah, yes, "Every eye would see him, even they who pierced him.")

"Eternity past" is simpy a way to say "before the foundations/creation of the world" (Eph 1:4).

Laying the foundation for something is not the same thing as creating it. The word used was kosmos. I don't believe that the New testament writers had such a lackadaisical approach to their recording of events that if the writer had meant to say that it was before the foundation of the earth was laid, the word ' gé ' would have been used and not the word kosmos . Ephesians 1:4 is a prime example of his foreknowing and choosing those who would constitute his church before the foundation (his holy laws) of his world (kosmos) was laid. The laying of the foundation was the handing down of his holy laws to this chosen people whom he had called out of Egypt. And that was when the foundation of that 'world' which was under consideration in that scripture was laid. (every nation is founded upon some set of laws and ordinances, for no nation can exist without a rule of law of some kind, e.g. our country is founded on the Constitution of the United States of America.)

Evergreen48 said:
Evergreen48 said:

As to choosing and predestining before the foundations of the world was laid, since it has already been discovered that there is no such thing as 'eternity past' with God, it would be necessary to examine the aspect of when the foundation of the world was laid, and what the foundation was,

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clare73 said:

That is not orthodox Christianity.

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And I am clearly not an orthodox Christian. That's why I post in Unorthodox Theology.

Would it not be wise for us to seek out and pray for our own understanding instead of just going along with the main crowd and whatever they believe?

Please present two examples and explain how they were permitted instead of decreed/ordained.

That comment sounds a lot like a question that might be on a test that one would take while still a juvenile in school. This discussion is not of that quality, and I will not be "baited" into such a waste of my time, when the already mentioned case of God's dealings with Pharoah is sufficient to that end.

Review the Biblical testimony regarding Pharoah in Ex 4:21 (before Moses ever went to Egypt)
and in Ro 9:14-18.

It's not about protecting those he loves from harm.

I have many times 'reviewed' the passages of scripture regarding God's dealings with Pharoah, and I see each time that I do this, that God allowed Pharoah to prevail by NOT softening his heart towards the matter. This, and much, or all of the Hebrew writings were written in poetic style, mainly because at that time the Hebrew language was very limited. It has been said by some critics that every word of it is contained in the writings of the Old Testament (with none left over). Once again, Pharoah's heart, as well as the rest of mankind's, was already as hard as it could be to begin with, and there was no need for God to harden it any further.

I know from experience that sometimes God's providential hand does protect those he loves from harm. Some might call events such as these miracles I do believe in miracles, but I also know what miracles are made of.

Ro 9:19-21 is about that objection.
And Ro 9:14-18 states the sovereignty of God to which man objects.

I say, "it is not", you say, "it is". Not much is accomplished that way.

That God is sovereign in all matters went without saying here, as no one was saying anything to the contrary. This was not what was being objected to. It seems that some may have questioned why there were those of the Jewish heritage (Rom. 9: 3-4 & fol.) who were denied entrance into his church. No understanding can be obtained by trying to make this passage of scriptures all about God's sovereignty in the general sense, or by trying to use them to prove the claim that God chooses some for salvation while not others. They are simply a summary of what the blessed apostle had been teaching all along: that entrance into, and being a part of his church was not sought and gained by blood lineage or by the keeping the old law and covenants, but by and through faith in Jesus, the only Savior. Between the starting lines of this chapter (9) and the end of it Paul also shows how that God chose or selected those who he would have to constitute his church. No one knows, not even those whom he chose, why he chose them particularly. But the apostle in no way implies that these chosen ones were the only ones to whom immortality was offered. No where within these passages of scripture is anyone's eternal destiny addressed.

We might keep in mind here that the blessed apostle Paul and his constituents taught an especial people in an especial time in our Christian history.

Clare73 · Oct 31, 2012

Evergreen48 said:
The impression that was left was that it was supposed to be a proof text for the following comment that EVERYTHING that happens has been decreed by God.:

Agreed it can be used as one example of when God has decreed that a particular event will happen, but it does not serve as an example that EVERY event that comes to pass has been decreed by God.

I presented other Scriptures that do serve as examples of such. I will present more:

Da 4:35; Mt 10:29; Jn 9:2-3; Dt 32:39; 1Sa 2:7; 1 Kgs 11:14, 23, 12:15, 24; Job 1:12; Is 45:7, 53:10, 54:16; Jer 44:27-28; Amos 3:6; Zech 11:16; Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; Lk 22:22; Ro 8:29-30; 9:14-29, 11:25-34;
Eph 1:4-12; 1Pe 1:2, which are in addition to the following already presented:

Ge 20:6; Ex 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Dt 2:25, 30; Jos 11:20; 1Sa 10:9; 1Chr 5:26; 2Chr 10:15;
Ezra 1:1, 5, 7:27; Ne 2:12, 7:5; Pr 21:1; Jer 34:22, 46:15, 50:9, 51:1; Da 1:9; Hag 1:14;
Zec 8:10; Jn 6:37; 2Co 8:16; Rev 17:17.

The Scriptural evidence that everything is decreed by God is overwhelming.

There are scriptural instances showing that God does sometimes wait to see the outcome of some dilemma or other before he reacts. If we believe that God is truly omniscient, and that ALL things are possible with him, then we will believe that he can see and not see both at the same time, and that he can know and not know both at the same time. Do you believe that?[/b]

Oops. . .that is self-evident absurdity.

The nature (attributes) of God does not do absurdity, contradiction, evil, unrighteousness, unholiness, injustice, ignorance (not knowing), lying, etc., etc., etc.

Ac 4:28:

It was not the murder of Jesus that was foreordained by God. It was the gathering together, and the people involved; namely and foremost the people of Israel, who gathered together with the rulers and the Gentiles (Romans) against Jesus, that was foreordained by God, for they did what his power and will had decided before hand would be done, which was conspiring against God and his anointed.

That's some seriously loose handling of the Scripture. You don't see your truncation there?

The text says that what was done was what his power and will had decided before hand would be done.
And what was done was the murder of Jesus.

God would never decree that such a horrendous crime would be committed against any innocent, let alone his Son Jesus.

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And you know this how, since the word of God written states otherwise (Ac 4:28)?

And I am clearly not an orthodox Christian.

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And I will not be defending "the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints" (Jude 3) to those who are not orthodox.

I will not be "baited" into such a waste of my time, when the already mentioned case of God's dealings with Pharoah is sufficient to that end.

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I have many times'reviewed' the passages of scripture regarding God's dealings with Pharoah, and I see each time that I do this, that God allowed Pharoah to prevail by NOT softening his heart towards the matter.

Granted, that is the meaning of God hardening hearts, as he has done with the majority of Jews to this day (Ro 11:25).

But God never presents his hardening of hearts as his "allowing" it, but always as his ordaining it to accomplish his purpose, by not softening them, as he softens the hearts of his people.

"I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go." (Ex 4:21)

So Pharoah is not an example of God permitting, but of God decreeing.
So please present two examples of God permitting and explain how they were permitted rather than ordained/decreed.

I say, "it is not", you say, "it is". Not much is accomplished that way.

And you truncate Scipture to agree with what you say, as in Ac 4:28, above, et al (Ac 13:48; Jn 8:47).

Agreed, not much is accomplished in truncating Scripure.

That God is sovereign in all matters went without saying here, as no one was saying anything to the contrary.

Then that must include the horrendous crime committed against his Son Jesus, or God is not sovereign in all matters.

In the faith,
Clare

Evergreen48 · Nov 1, 2012

Clare73 said:
I presented other Scriptures that do serve as examples of such. I will present more:

Mt 10:29; Jn 9:2-3; Da 4:35; Dt 32:39; 1Sa 2:7; 1 Kgs 11:14, 23, 12:15, 24; Job 1:12; Is 45:7, 53:10, 54:16; Jer 44:27-28; Amos 3:6; Zech 11:16; Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; Lk 22:22; Ro 8:29-30; 9:14-29, 11:25-34;

Ge 20:6; Ex 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Dt 2:25, 30; Jos 11:20; 1Sa 10:9; 1Chr 5:26; 2Chr 10:15;
Ezra 1:1, 5, 7:27; Ne 2:12, 7:5; Pr 21:1; Jer 34:22, 46:15, 50:9, 51:1; Da 1:9; Hag 1:14;
Zec 8:10; Jn 6:37; 2Co 8:16; Rev 17:17.

The Scriptural evidence that everything is decreed by God is overwhelming.

Each of the scriptures that you have posted speak to ONLY ONE SPECIFIC instance, or ONLY ONE event that God decreed something. None give any evidence that EVERYTHING that happens is decreed by God.

Evergreen48 said:
Evergreen48 said:

There are scriptural instances showing that God does sometimes wait to see the outcome of some dilemma or other before he reacts. If we believe that God is truly omniscient, and that ALL things are possible with him, then we will believe that he can see and not see both at the same time, and that he can know and not know both at the same time. Do you believe that?

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Clare74 said:
Clare74 said:

Oops. . .that is self-evident absurdity.

The nature (attributes) of God does not do absurdity, contradiction, evil, unrighteousness, unholiness, injustice, ignorance (not knowing), lying, etc., etc., etc.

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If God chooses to close his eyes to certain things and not see them, most certainly it is within his power to do so. And it is within his power to see even when he does not see, and the same applies to his knowing and not knowing at the same time. There are no boundaries with God, and because such things are incomprehensible to our finite minds does not mean that he cannot and does not do them. Though this may seem to be an absurdity to us, if we do not accept that this is true of God, then we do not believe that he is omniscient.

Case in point: In Speaking to the Stoics and the Epicureans there at Mars Hill, the apostle Paul said the following.

Acts 17:24. "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25. Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27. That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28. For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29.Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

If God winked at, or overlooked this, then this means that he DID NOT SEE IT. This was by his own choice of course, but the point is, that we know that although he did not see this he most certainly did see it at the same time. All things are possible with God.

Evergreen48 said:
Evergreen48 said:

It was not the murder of Jesus that was foreordained by God. It was the gathering together, and the people involved; namely and foremost the people of Israel, who gathered together with the rulers and the Gentiles (Romans) against Jesus, that was foreordained by God, for they did what his power and will had decided before hand would be done, which was conspiring against God and his anointed.

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Clare73 said:
Clare73 said:

That's some seriously loose handling of the Scripture. You don't see your truncation there?

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Clare73 said:

The text says that what was done was what his power and will had decided before hand would be done.

And what was done was the murder of Jesus.

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No, I did not cut anything out of this scripture, and I did not leave out any significant detail. I stopped where the scripture stopped. The scripture, both in the preceding verse 25, and the Psalms from which the apostles quote, say only that they gathered together to conspire against God and his anointed ( Jesus). That the subsequent crucifixion which resulted in his death is what was decided before hand to happen is assumption and presupposition on your part. The scripture just does not say that. If this had been decreed by God, no one or no thing could have stopped this from happening, not even Jesus. But yet we see that if Jesus himself had decided that he did not want to go through this horrible ordeal, his Father would have sent more than twelve legions of angels to his rescue. (Matt. 26:53)

Evergreen48 said:
Evergreen48 said:

God would never decree that such a horrendous crime would be committed against any innocent, let alone his Son Jesus.

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Clare73 said:
Clare73 said:

And you know this how, since the word of God written states otherwise (Ac 4:28)?

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I don't KNOW anything, but I BELIEVE it because I trust him to be a God of love, and also I trust him to be a just and righteous God who would not do something that he has taught us in our hearts not to do.

Acts 4:28 does not state otherwise. The truth has been shown to you here. You need to accept it.[/COLOR]

Evergreen48 said:
Evergreen48 said:

And I am clearly not an orthodox Christian.

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Clare73 said:

And I will not be defending the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints (Jude 3) to those who are not.

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I can see how this wouldn't be done since proof would have to be given that this really was the faith that was entrusted to saints.

Evergreen48 said:
Evergreen48 said:

I have many times 'reviewed' the passages of scripture regarding God's dealings with Pharoah, and I see each time that I do this, that God allowed Pharoah to prevail by NOT softening his heart towards the matter.

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Clare73 said:

]Granted, that is the meaning of God hardening hearts, as he has done with the majority of Jews to this day (Ro 11:25).

But God never presents his hardening of hearts as his "allowing" it, but always as his ordaining it to accomplish his purpose, by not softening them, as he softens the hearts of his people.

"I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go." (Ex 4:21)

So Pharoah is not an example of God permitting, but of God decreeing.
So please present two examples of God permitting and explain how they were permitted rather than ordained/decreed.

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Yes, Pharoah IS an example of God permitting rather than ordaining/decreeing, no matter how you try to explain it away. " Once again, Pharoah's heart, as well as the rest of mankind's, was already as hard as it could be to begin with, and there was no need for God to harden it any further."

The other example of course, would be his permitting the murder of Jesus to come about. As far as explaining how this was permitted rather than decreed, I believe I have done that previously .

Clare73 said:

And you truncate Scipture to agree with what you say, as in Ac 4:28, above, et al (Ac 13:48; Jn 8:47).
Agreed, not much is accomplished in truncating Scripture.

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Not adding presupposition and assumption to a scripture does not add up to truncation. I left nothing out nor did I cut the scripture short.
I don't remember commenting before on John 8:47 or Acts 13:48 during this discussion. I will do so now.

John 8:47. "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."
It is evident that those to whom Jesus addressed these words were not of God, for they sought to kill him.

We are the children of whom ever we obey. If we obey the devil (which I believe the 'devil' to be nothing more than the fallen, fleshly or carnal mind of a person) then we are of him. But if we obey God, then we are of him. "That which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit." (John 3:6) The apostle Paul addressed this very thing in Rom. 8:9 when he said to the Christians there: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is not of him."

But truly I don't see how this particular scripture proves anything one way or the other toward the discussion at hand.

Acts 13:47. "For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained ( tassó - to draw up in order, arrange) to eternal life believed."

Now, I could not begin to tell you what the Greek word tassó means in regards to the way in which it is used here. But this I do know: the word is not in anyway, even vaguely so, akin to the Greek word proorizó. And so, it proves absolutely nothing toward the Calvinistic doctrine of predestination.
It is mostly agreed that it was Luke who recorded the book of what is called "The Acts Of The Apostles". So seeing that Luke was not an appointed apostle of our Lord, but seemed to be more of a companion, perhaps a physician, to the apostle Paul during his missionary travels, and that nothing is said about his having even seen Jesus while he walked with the other twelve men whom he had chosen, let alone actually being specially sent after having Jesus' holy breath actually breathed on him as did the other faithful eleven, it is not likely that Luke had the foreknowledge that would allow him to know that those present at this gathering who did not believe at that time would not and did not believe on him at a later date.

Evergreen48 said:

That God is sovereign in all matters went without saying here, as no one was saying anything to the contrary. This was not what was being objected to. It seems that some may have questioned why there were those of the Jewish heritage (Rom. 9: 3-4 & fol.) who were denied entrance into his church. No understanding can be obtained by trying to make this passage of scriptures all about God's sovereignty in the general sense, or by trying to use them to prove the claim that God chooses some for salvation while not others. They are simply a summary of what the blessed apostle had been teaching all along: that entrance into, and being a part of his church was not sought and gained by blood lineage or by the keeping the old law and covenants, but by and through faith in Jesus, the only Savior. Between the starting lines of this chapter (9) and the end of it Paul also shows how that God chose or selected those who he would have to constitute his church. No one knows, not even those whom he chose, why he chose them particularly. But the apostle in no way implies that these chosen ones were the only ones to whom immortality was offered. No where within these passages of scripture is anyone's eternal destiny addressed.

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Clare73 said:

Then that must include the horrendous crime committed against his Son Jesus, or God is not sovereign in all matters.

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That is a strange response to my comment. I think you must have lost the most of my comment somewhere. In case you did, I re-posted the rest of it for you so that you will be able to comment on the whole of it and not just one sentence out of it.

Clare73 · Nov 1, 2012

Evergreen48 said:
Each of the scriptures that you have posted speak to ONLY ONE SPECIFIC instance, or ONLY ONE event that God decreed something. None give any evidence that EVERYTHING that happens is decreed by God.

Okay, here are the principles:

Eph 1:11 - "who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will."

Da 4:35 - "does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to Him; What have you done?" (God's absolute power is absolutely just.)

Mt 10:29-30 - "not one sparrow will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. Even the very hairs of your head are all numbered."

God himself works out everything to the smallest detail in conformity with the purpose of his will, from the powers of heaven, to the peoples of the earth, to every sparrow, and to the number of hairs on your head.

Scripture presents the scope of God himself working out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will as all comprehensive and total.

And then I gave 50 examples from Scripture showing his total sovereignty in working out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

You can wink at (overlook/ignore) this overwhelming Biblical testimony of his total sovereignty working out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will if you wish.

if we do not accept that this is true of God, then we do not believe that he is omniscient.

Case in point: In Speaking to the Stoics and the Epicureans there at Mars Hill, the apostle Paul said the following.

Acts 17:24. "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

If God winked at, or overlooked this, then this means that he DID NOT SEE IT.

No, it doesn't, not even in ordinary parlance.

Check out what it means ordinarily.

(Hint: to overlook, to pass over; i.e., to make no just/deserved response)

The scripture. . .say only that they gathered together to conspire against God and his anointed ( Jesus). That the subsequent crucifixion which resulted in his death is what was decided before hand to happen is assumption and presupposition

"This man was handed over to you by God. . .and you with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." (Ac 2:23)

So what does the text show that God handed Jesus over to them for?
A field trip? To make him king? Or to nail him to the cross?

"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! . .And now you have betrayed and murdered the righteous one." (Ac 7:51-52)

"They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen." (Ac 4:28)

What happened is what should have happened, God himself handed Jesus over to be murdered.
That is the clear testimony of Scripture.

I don't KNOW anything, but I BELIEVE it because I trust him to be a God of love, and also I trust him to be a just and righteous God who would not do something that he has taught us in our hearts not to do.

You are measuring God by your self.
You've got it backwards.

I can see how this wouldn't be done since proof would have to be given that this really was the faith that was entrusted to saints.

Orthodox Christianity has held the field for centuries and centuries as the faith entrusted to the saints.
Therefore, the burden is yours to take the field by proving it is not the faith entrusted to the saints.

Acts 13:47. "as many was were ordained to eternal life believed"

Who decreed/ordained that they would believe?

it is not likely that Luke had the foreknowledge that would allow him to know that those present at this gathering who did not believe at that time would not and did not believe on him at a later date.

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So the word of God written is not true.

And that is the only option you have left when the word of God written conflicts with your belief, and you are not willing to bring your belief into line with it.

That God is sovereign in all matters goes without saying. . .

Then he is sovereign in decreeing the crucifixion of Jesus, where he was "working out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will" (salvation), or he is not sovereign in all matters.

In the faith,
Clare

Evergreen48 · Nov 4, 2012

Clare 73 said:
Okay, here are the principles:

Eph 1:11 - "who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will."

Even if the whole of Ephesians 1:11 had been presented it would not stand by itself as being a proof text for the calvinistic doctrine.

Ephesians 1:10. "That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11. "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh ALL THINGS [that are IN CHRIST ] in heaven, and in earth after the counsel of his own will:"

So, we see that this passage of scripture does not speak to ALL THINGS or EVERYTHING in general being decreed or predestined by God, but only to the ALL THINGS in heaven and on earth which he has gathered together IN CHRIST.

Da 4:35 - "does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to Him; What have you done?" (God's absolute power is absolutely just.)

Dan. 4:34. "And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: 35. And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

No one is arguing that God does not have complete power over all things, but this in no way indicates that EVERYTHING that happens is due to a decree from him. Many things that happen, and many events that occur are simply the result of his allowing us to do as we do in our normal everyday life, and not necessarily because God has decreed that they should happen. If I stub my little toe on a chair leg or something (as I have done numerous times down through the years) it hurts like blazes for a couple of minutes but when the pain is gone that is the end of it until the next time I do the same thing all over again, but this event occurs because I wasn't watching what I was doing and could have most likely have been prevented if I had not been walking around without shoes on. God always has a purpose for decreeing something to come to pass, and I can't think for the life of me what purpose God would have for decreeing that I would stub my little toe.

Mt 10:29-30 - "not one sparrow will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. Even the very hairs of your head are all numbered."
God himself works out everything to the smallest detail in conformity with the purpose of his will, from the powers of heaven, to the peoples of the earth, to every sparrow, and to the number of hairs on your head.

Scripture presents the scope of God himself working out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will as all comprehensive and total.
And then I gave 50 examples from Scripture showing his total sovereignty in working out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

You can wink at (overlook/ignore) this overwhelming Biblical testimony of his total sovereignty working out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will if you wish.

To this point I have not questioned the translations of the scriptures that you are using though I find they do seem to be a bit slanted in favor of your doctrine at times. I will give you the translation from the original Greek of Mt. 10:29 so that you can see that there is absolutely nothing about "the will of your Father" in that scripture.

"Are not two sparrows sold for an assarius? Yet neither of them shall fall to the ground without your Father."

By reading the following verse 30. [ "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered."] we can fairly well determine that the context of the verse is not related to God's causing or decreeing that the little bird to fall, but that it speaks to his being aware of (omniscience) of all things at all times, even down to how many hairs were on their head. So God's being aware of the most minute detail about an individual does not necessarilly mean that God had any particular purpose in mind by the naturalness of the many hairs that grows on a person's head and that such as this is controlled by a direct decree from God.

As to your 50 scriptures, it has already been commented on that not one of them speaks to his decreeing EVERYTHING that happens, so, it would behoove you now to post each one and explain how it shows that God has decreed every event that has happened or will happen.

Evergreen48 said:
Evergreen48 said:

Acts 17:24. "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

If God winked at, or overlooked this, then this means that he DID NOT SEE IT.

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Clare73 said:

No, it doesn't, not even in ordinary parlance.

Check out what it means ordinarily.

(Hint: to overlook, to pass over; i.e., to make no just/deserved response)

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No matter how hard you may try to change the definition of the word hupereidon it stands that God did not SEE (by choice) that these idolatrous people had been worshiping false gods. The Greek word hupereidon comes from two Greek words, huper and eidó meaning that on behalf of these people (to hold off his wrath on them for their idolatrous worship) he was NOT aware of, did NOT behold, consider, or perceive their actions. And we know that at the same time he was seeing or beholding, perceiving and considering their actions, else he never would have put into place a remedy to do away with his wrath on them.

"This man was handed over to you by God. . .and you with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." (Ac 2:23)
So what does the text show that God handed Jesus over to them for?
A field trip? To make him king? Or to nail him to the cross?

None of the above. God did not take Jesus captive and and then hand him over to these evil men, saying, "Here he is. You men take him and murder him by crucifixion on a cross." . He ALLOWED them to take him and to kill him according to his foreknowledge ___ what he already knew they would do. He ALLOWED this for a purpose, and at any time during this ordeal, the outcome could have been changed by Jesus' praying to his Father, and 12 legions of angels would have been sent to his rescue. (Matt. 26:53) THAT IS NOT THE WAY A DECREE FROM GOD WORKS! But this fact has been completely ignored throughout this discussion.

You are measuring God by your self.
You've got it backwards.

I am not measuring God at all. I just believe that this faith that I have pertaining to this came from his teaching me this in my heart, as I don't know what other source it could have come from, and I believe that he is not a God of "Do as I say, not as I do".

Orthodox Christianity has held the field for centuries and centuries as the faith entrusted to the saints.
Therefore, the burden is yours to take the field by proving it is not the faith entrusted to the saints.

I don't find that this burden is mine particularly, as I believe it behooves each of us to search out for our self what is truth and what is not. I've never been one who is much for "following the leader" when it comes to what the scripture teaches. If I were, most likely I would still be a Calvinist like my parents and grandparents taught me to be.

Acts 13:47. "as many was were ordained [tassó] to eternal life believed"
Who decreed/ordained that they would believe?
So the word of God written is not true.

And that is the only option you have left when it conflicts with your belief, and you are not willing to bring your belief into line with it.

Once again: the Greek word tassó which has been translated as 'ordained' in our English language is not in anyway, even vaguely so, akin to the Greek word proorizó [foreordain, determine]. So this scripture does not teach that anyone was ordained or decreed to believe. The fact that Luke, who had no way of knowing as to whether or not there might have been some in this gathering that did not believe at that time, but may have believed at a later time, said that AS MANY as were ordained [tassó] to eternal life believed, proves that the word tassó does NOT mean that they were ordained or decreed to believe.

That God is sovereign in all matters goes without saying. . ..

The above quote is not mine. My original quote was: "That God is sovereign in all matters went without saying here, as no one was saying anything to the contrary. " I was referring to what is written in Romans 9:14-22. And there was quite a bit more said in my comment than just that. But you 'cherry picked' one phrase out of my original comment (just as you have cherry picked out of all my comments in our discussion) to respond to, which really made no sense at all. I called your attention to this by telling you that you must have lost the rest of my comment, and then I re-posted it. Now you come back with the quote below, of which you did not identify the person who said it, and bring back basically the same answer to it which has nothing to do my original comment. What is your problem ? ? ?

Then he is sovereign in decreeing the crucifixion of Jesus, or he is not sovereign in all matters

It has already been shown to you that God did not decree that Jesus should be crucified, (Matthew 26:53) but you choose to ignore it. Why?

Clare73 · Nov 4, 2012

Evergreen48 said:
Even if the whole of Ephesians 1:11 had been presented it would not stand by itself as being a proof text for the calvinistic doctrine.

How did Calvin get in Eph?

Ephesians 1:10. "That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11. "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh ALL THINGS [that are IN CHRIST ] in heaven, and in earth after the counsel of his own will:"

So God is in control only of believers, but nothing else?
I try not to add or change the word of God.
It is the source of error and misunderstanding.

Dan. 4:34. "And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: 35. And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

No one is arguing that God does not have complete power over all things, but this in no way indicates that EVERYTHING that happens is due to a decree from him.

No, that is stated in Eph 1:11.

"Are not two sparrows sold for an assarius? Yet neither of them shall fall to the ground without your Father."

we can fairly well determine that the context of the verse is not related to God's causing or decreeing that the little bird to fall, but that it speaks to his being aware of (omniscience) of all things at all times

Its context is Jesus addressing their fear (Mt 10:26, 28).
It takes more than God's omniscience of the situation to calm one's fear.
It's takes God's control of the situation to calm one's fear.

Mt 10:29-30 are not about God's omniscience, they are about God's control, even of the smallest details.

I'm going to leave it all at your handling of the word of God is too loose, for the post [post=61679808]here[/post] speaks for itself.

In the faith,
Clare

Evergreen48 · Nov 4, 2012

Clare73 said:
How did Calvin get in Eph?

I can't believe you don't know that Ephesians 1:3-6 is one of the most used, or should I say misused, passages of scripture as proof text for the doctrine of election and predestination.

I try not to add or change the word of God.
It is the source of error and misunderstanding.

Me too. Or is that another accusation that I have, as you say,truncated a scripture?

No, that is stated in Eph 1:11.

Please give the specific details as to how Ephesians 1:11 states that that EVERYTHING that happens is due to a decree from him.

Not in its context of Jesus addressing their fear (Mt 10:26, 28).
It takes more than God's omniscience of a situation to calm one's fear.
It's takes God's control of the situation to calm one's fear.

No, actually it takes one's faith in God that he is in control to calm their fear.

Mt 10:29-30 are not about God's omniscience, they are about God's control, even of the smallest details.

No, actually I see it as being about how if God takes note of such a minute detail as a sparrow falling to the ground, surely since those to whom he spoke were of much more value than many of the almost worthless little birds, he would certainly be aware of what could be happening to them whom he loved much more than a little bird, thus giving the hope that even if men did kill their natural bodies (which they did in time) there was something much better waiting for them after that, because they could not touch their immortal soul.

I'm going to leave it at your handling of the word of God is too loose, for the post speaks for itself.

Does that mean you are quitting? Guess I can't blame you for that.
Have a nice day, Clare, and May God bless you.

Clare73 · Nov 4, 2012

Evergreen48 said:
Clare73 said:

How did Calvin get in Eph?

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I can't believe you don't know that Ephesians 1:3-6 is one of the most used, or should I say misused, passages of scripture as proof text for the doctrine of election and predestination.

But I used Eph 1:11.

I said nothing about election and predestination.

More loose handling.

It's just as well.

In the faith,
Clare

Evergreen48 · Nov 4, 2012

Clare73 said:
But I used Eph 1:11.

I said nothing about election and predestination.

More loose handling.

It's just as well.

In the faith,
Clare

But the scripture does.

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things in heaven, and in earth after the counsel of his own will."

Granted the conversation did not last long enough for us to get around to the main tenet of Calvinism, that is, that Calvinists agree that being elected or chosen and predestined to salvation is the same as God's decreeing that one will be saved while others are not decreed to this end. You do believe that, don't you?

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