Special Inward Call?
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Eddie L
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Ok, I'll bite.
This is not a general call, because this passage is limiting God's working together all things for good to those who love God. The love of believers is a result of His calling them for His own purposes.
Here we see a calling sent to those that are predestined, a calling that is between predestination and justification. We believe this is the inward call, and we see that it always results in justification (which we know is by faith).
Paul is indicating a calling that is restricted, one that results in recognition of the power of the Gospel. Paul uses this phrase earlier to identify those who are in fellowship with Christ. Paul emphasizes the call of God, for God's purpose, and shows the result of that calling in those it is given to. Just a verse or two later, Paul seems to use the word "call" to equate to the moment of belief. Calvinists tend to use the term like Paul does, and we emphasize God as the One doing the CALLING. This is not a general call.
These are just a few of the passages that use the word call in the way we would consider to indicate an inward call. The idea is common to Paul. Peter uses it, too:
Peter certainly isn't' referring to a call to all people. He seems to share ideas with Paul. The author of Hebrews did, too:
There is a calling that is shared among the brothers. This is NOT a general call.
This is something I put together quickly. I'm sure there are better explanations out there or even people here who can do a better job.
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28)
This is not a general call, because this passage is limiting God's working together all things for good to those who love God. The love of believers is a result of His calling them for His own purposes.
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:30)
Here we see a calling sent to those that are predestined, a calling that is between predestination and justification. We believe this is the inward call, and we see that it always results in justification (which we know is by faith).
For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Corinthians 1:22-25)
Paul is indicating a calling that is restricted, one that results in recognition of the power of the Gospel. Paul uses this phrase earlier to identify those who are in fellowship with Christ. Paul emphasizes the call of God, for God's purpose, and shows the result of that calling in those it is given to. Just a verse or two later, Paul seems to use the word "call" to equate to the moment of belief. Calvinists tend to use the term like Paul does, and we emphasize God as the One doing the CALLING. This is not a general call.
These are just a few of the passages that use the word call in the way we would consider to indicate an inward call. The idea is common to Paul. Peter uses it, too:
Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. (1 Peter 1:10)
Peter certainly isn't' referring to a call to all people. He seems to share ideas with Paul. The author of Hebrews did, too:
Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession (Hebrews 3:1)
There is a calling that is shared among the brothers. This is NOT a general call.
This is something I put together quickly. I'm sure there are better explanations out there or even people here who can do a better job.
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Ok, I'll bite.
LOL! Thanks EddieL. I will look over your comments and get back with you. I really appreciate these exercises in the Word. God is so good!
LOL! Thanks EddieL. I will look over your comments and get back with you. I really appreciate these exercises in the Word. God is so good!
Upvote
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Hey EddieL,
Thanks for taking the bite (you are in red),
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28)
This is not a general call, because this passage is limiting God's working together all things for good to those who love God. The love of believers is a result of His calling them for His own purposes.
The fact that this verse indicates that they (those who love God and will have all things work for the good), have been called according to His purpose, does not prove that this was a special specific call, an inward call, or that this same call was not issued to others who rejected it. It does seem to be undeniable that they were called and that the call was effective.
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:30)
Here we see a calling sent to those that are predestined, a calling that is between predestination and justification. We believe this is the inward call, and we see that it always results in justification (which we know is by faith).
He sure did and it was effective. They responded. However, this verse like the first does not indicate or prove that this was a special specific call, an inward call, or that this same call was not issued to others who rejected it. It does seem to be undeniable that they were called and that the call was effective. We also see, as you point out, the called in this case have been predestined to justification. I believe God does this because He foresees the effective response to the call.
For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Corinthians 1:22-25)
Paul is indicating a calling that is restricted, one that results in recognition of the power of the Gospel. Paul uses this phrase earlier to identify those who are in fellowship with Christ. Paul emphasizes the call of God, for God's purpose, and shows the result of that calling in those it is given to.
This verse like the others does not indicate or prove that this was a special specific call, an inward call, or that this same call was not issued to others who rejected it. It does seem to be undeniable that they were called and that the call was effective.
Just a verse or two later, Paul seems to use the word "call" to equate to the moment of belief. Calvinists tend to use the term like Paul does, and we emphasize God as the One doing the CALLING. This is not a general call.
It is in the next verse, v26…
1 Cor 1:26
Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
This verse like the others does not indicate or prove that this was a special specific call, an inward call, or that this same call was not issued to others who rejected it. It does seem to be undeniable that they were called and that the call was effective (they are now brothers).
However, if you continue reading we gain a little more insight into the nature of the call.
1 Cor 2:1-5
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
Simply, the call came through the preaching (general call) and was effective for those who believed it. This does not disprove a special inner call, but it certainly does not prove one.
specific references to individuals who have responded positively to the call do not mean the call is not general. The call is general, but it is specifically applied to (effective for) those who believe, thereby making them the called, the chosen, the elect, the few.
1 Cor 1:24
24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. NRSV
1 Cor 1:24
24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. NASB
1 Cor 1:24-25
24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. NASU
It is certain the called referred to here are those who have been effectively called, but this does not necessitate a second special type of call. It can just as easily refer to the two different responses to the same call. For them (who received the call / not different kind of call), the message of Christ crucified is the power of God.
Rom 1:16-17
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
If you believe (the one same gospel, the one same call), you become effectively called and Scripture at times refers to you as being called, or the called (meaning effectively, due to the positive response). Again, this does not mean there is a second special and distinct type of call only for particular individuals.
2 Thessalonians 2:14-15
He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
These are just a few of the passages that use the word call in the way we would consider to indicate an inward call. The idea is common to Paul. Peter uses it, too:
Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. (1 Peter 1:10)
Peter certainly isn't' referring to a call to all people. He seems to share ideas with Paul.
This verse like the others does not indicate or prove that this was a special specific call, an inward call, or that this same call was not issued to others who rejected it. It does seem to be undeniable that they were called and that the call was effective (they are brothers). It can actually be argued here that neither the calling or election are sure unless your faith is genuine.
The author of Hebrews did, too:
Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession (Hebrews 3:1)
There is a calling that is shared among the brothers. This is NOT a general call.
Yes, they are brothers and they share in the calling, but this does not mean that this call was irresistible, distinctively special specific , inward, or that this same call was not issued to others who rejected it.
In each case you have to read Calvinism's claims into the verses to come to your conclusion. Any other verses?
This is something I put together quickly. I'm sure there are better explanations out there or even people here who can do a better job.
Blessings!
Thanks for taking the bite (you are in red),
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28)
This is not a general call, because this passage is limiting God's working together all things for good to those who love God. The love of believers is a result of His calling them for His own purposes.
The fact that this verse indicates that they (those who love God and will have all things work for the good), have been called according to His purpose, does not prove that this was a special specific call, an inward call, or that this same call was not issued to others who rejected it. It does seem to be undeniable that they were called and that the call was effective.
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:30)
Here we see a calling sent to those that are predestined, a calling that is between predestination and justification. We believe this is the inward call, and we see that it always results in justification (which we know is by faith).
He sure did and it was effective. They responded. However, this verse like the first does not indicate or prove that this was a special specific call, an inward call, or that this same call was not issued to others who rejected it. It does seem to be undeniable that they were called and that the call was effective. We also see, as you point out, the called in this case have been predestined to justification. I believe God does this because He foresees the effective response to the call.
For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Corinthians 1:22-25)
Paul is indicating a calling that is restricted, one that results in recognition of the power of the Gospel. Paul uses this phrase earlier to identify those who are in fellowship with Christ. Paul emphasizes the call of God, for God's purpose, and shows the result of that calling in those it is given to.
This verse like the others does not indicate or prove that this was a special specific call, an inward call, or that this same call was not issued to others who rejected it. It does seem to be undeniable that they were called and that the call was effective.
Just a verse or two later, Paul seems to use the word "call" to equate to the moment of belief. Calvinists tend to use the term like Paul does, and we emphasize God as the One doing the CALLING. This is not a general call.
It is in the next verse, v26…
1 Cor 1:26
Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
This verse like the others does not indicate or prove that this was a special specific call, an inward call, or that this same call was not issued to others who rejected it. It does seem to be undeniable that they were called and that the call was effective (they are now brothers).
However, if you continue reading we gain a little more insight into the nature of the call.
1 Cor 2:1-5
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
Simply, the call came through the preaching (general call) and was effective for those who believed it. This does not disprove a special inner call, but it certainly does not prove one.
specific references to individuals who have responded positively to the call do not mean the call is not general. The call is general, but it is specifically applied to (effective for) those who believe, thereby making them the called, the chosen, the elect, the few.
1 Cor 1:24
24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. NRSV
1 Cor 1:24
24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. NASB
1 Cor 1:24-25
24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. NASU
It is certain the called referred to here are those who have been effectively called, but this does not necessitate a second special type of call. It can just as easily refer to the two different responses to the same call. For them (who received the call / not different kind of call), the message of Christ crucified is the power of God.
Rom 1:16-17
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
If you believe (the one same gospel, the one same call), you become effectively called and Scripture at times refers to you as being called, or the called (meaning effectively, due to the positive response). Again, this does not mean there is a second special and distinct type of call only for particular individuals.
2 Thessalonians 2:14-15
He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
These are just a few of the passages that use the word call in the way we would consider to indicate an inward call. The idea is common to Paul. Peter uses it, too:
Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. (1 Peter 1:10)
Peter certainly isn't' referring to a call to all people. He seems to share ideas with Paul.
This verse like the others does not indicate or prove that this was a special specific call, an inward call, or that this same call was not issued to others who rejected it. It does seem to be undeniable that they were called and that the call was effective (they are brothers). It can actually be argued here that neither the calling or election are sure unless your faith is genuine.
The author of Hebrews did, too:
Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession (Hebrews 3:1)
There is a calling that is shared among the brothers. This is NOT a general call.
Yes, they are brothers and they share in the calling, but this does not mean that this call was irresistible, distinctively special specific , inward, or that this same call was not issued to others who rejected it.
In each case you have to read Calvinism's claims into the verses to come to your conclusion. Any other verses?
This is something I put together quickly. I'm sure there are better explanations out there or even people here who can do a better job.
Blessings!
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Eddie L
Guest
I don't agree that you have to read Calvin to come to that conclusion. I came to that conclusion before I knew what Calvinism was. I didn't use the labels that Calvinists use, but I understood the concept.
When I became a believer and read the Bible for the first time, I was blown away by the concept of Sovereign Grace. I didn't have a systematic theology's labels to apply to the ideas, but I encountered them loudly and clearly as I read the Bible. When it finally hit me, my love for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exploded because I realized just how far God had gone to save ME. I saw my life as a redemption factory, and every moment of it as a work of God on my behalf, for no other reason than what the Bible called "God's purposes". It didn't take any book for me to understand what the Bible told me. It took books to give me the vocabulary to convey those ideas to other people.
When I became a believer and read the Bible for the first time, I was blown away by the concept of Sovereign Grace. I didn't have a systematic theology's labels to apply to the ideas, but I encountered them loudly and clearly as I read the Bible. When it finally hit me, my love for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exploded because I realized just how far God had gone to save ME. I saw my life as a redemption factory, and every moment of it as a work of God on my behalf, for no other reason than what the Bible called "God's purposes". It didn't take any book for me to understand what the Bible told me. It took books to give me the vocabulary to convey those ideas to other people.
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I understand brother. I was stating specifically that "irresistible", "special", "inward", and that the call "can't be rejected by others" has to be read into the specific passages you presented (not into your theological construct as a whole).
Have a great day in the Lord. It is like the perfect day here in SC.
Together in Him,
gmm4Jesus
Have a great day in the Lord. It is like the perfect day here in SC.
Together in Him,
gmm4Jesus
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Eddie L
Guest
OK, here are some promises in the OT that we see the "call" fulfilling in the NT:
I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. (Jeremiah 32:40)
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Eze 36:27)
I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart (Jeremiah 24:7)
This is just a few. We don't see the gospel as some set of facts to be assented to. We see the work of the Father, Son, and Spirit on the behalf of a sinner as all being a part of the gospel. God promised to do the things above to His people, and we see regeneration as the fulfillment of that promise. In fact, it wouldn't be weird to say that Jesus' death on the cross ensured that the regeneration of the elect would not violate God's justice. His righteousness fulfilled man's covenant with God. His death provided the sacrifice for our sins. Because of His work, God can regenerate our hearts and provide us with an inheritance and remain Holy and just. It is brilliant. It is awe inspiring.
Our regeneration (and the inward call) is a big part of what Jesus purchased for us on the cross. Faith, then, is not something we bring to the table to save us. It isn't a condition that we meet in order to be redeemable. It is the evidence of the Spirit's work in us, a work that is wrought in us because of the promise of the Father and the finished work of the Son.
I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. (Jeremiah 32:40)
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Eze 36:27)
I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart (Jeremiah 24:7)
This is just a few. We don't see the gospel as some set of facts to be assented to. We see the work of the Father, Son, and Spirit on the behalf of a sinner as all being a part of the gospel. God promised to do the things above to His people, and we see regeneration as the fulfillment of that promise. In fact, it wouldn't be weird to say that Jesus' death on the cross ensured that the regeneration of the elect would not violate God's justice. His righteousness fulfilled man's covenant with God. His death provided the sacrifice for our sins. Because of His work, God can regenerate our hearts and provide us with an inheritance and remain Holy and just. It is brilliant. It is awe inspiring.
Our regeneration (and the inward call) is a big part of what Jesus purchased for us on the cross. Faith, then, is not something we bring to the table to save us. It isn't a condition that we meet in order to be redeemable. It is the evidence of the Spirit's work in us, a work that is wrought in us because of the promise of the Father and the finished work of the Son.
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Hey EddieL (you are in red),
OK, here are some promises in the OT that we see the "call" fulfilling in the NT:
I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. (Jeremiah 32:40)
This verse, unlike the others you presented, does not even indicate a call. It also does not state how this is accomplished. The fact that God is affecting the heart does indicate that it is inward, however, it does not indicate if the means by which God will do this is irresistible. From other texts we know that the New Covenant is entered into by faith and we know faith comes by hearing, not by regeneration. An irresistible call only to the elect – not established.
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Eze 36:27)
Again, this does not indicate any type of call. It also does not state that the work is irresistible and that it cannot be rejected. It is established that it is an inner work within the person, but the means by which it is accomplished is not mentioned. Another thing is that it is a specific reference to the captives in Babylon coming back to their land, and you certainly can’t tell me with certainty that every single one of those returning from captivity were regenerated.
I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart (Jeremiah 24:7)
Again, this does not indicate any type of call. It also does not state that the work is irresistible and that it cannot be rejected. It is established that it is an inner work on the heart, but the means by which it is accomplished is not mentioned. Another thing is that it is a specific reference to Judah in Babylonian captivity coming back to their land, and you certainly can’t tell me with certainty that every single one of those returning from captivity were regenerated.
This is just a few. We don't see the gospel as some set of facts to be assented to.
Understood, even though the Gospel is a set of “good news” facts to be assented to. Don’t you think we have to agree with the Gospel?
We see the work of the Father, Son, and Spirit on the behalf of a sinner as all being a part of the gospel.
Amen. I agree.
God promised to do the things above to His people, and we see regeneration as the fulfillment of that promise.
I agree.
In fact, it wouldn't be weird to say that Jesus' death on the cross ensured that the regeneration of the elect would not violate God's justice. His righteousness fulfilled man's covenant with God. His death provided the sacrifice for our sins. Because of His work, God can regenerate our hearts and provide us with an inheritance and remain Holy and just. It is brilliant. It is awe inspiring.
I am in complete agreement and it is amazing!
Our regeneration (and the inward call) is a big part of what Jesus purchased for us on the cross.
Regeneration – I agree. Special irresistible inward call – don’t see it.
Faith, then, is not something we bring to the table to save us.
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 9:2
Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."
Luke 7:48-50
Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." 49 The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
It isn't a condition that we meet in order to be redeemable.
Acts 16:30-31
He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household."
It is the evidence of the Spirit's work in us, a work that is wrought in us because of the promise of the Father and the finished work of the Son.
Okay. However, Scripture does not teach that there is a distinctively special, irresistible, inward call only for the elect.
OK, here are some promises in the OT that we see the "call" fulfilling in the NT:
I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. (Jeremiah 32:40)
This verse, unlike the others you presented, does not even indicate a call. It also does not state how this is accomplished. The fact that God is affecting the heart does indicate that it is inward, however, it does not indicate if the means by which God will do this is irresistible. From other texts we know that the New Covenant is entered into by faith and we know faith comes by hearing, not by regeneration. An irresistible call only to the elect – not established.
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Eze 36:27)
Again, this does not indicate any type of call. It also does not state that the work is irresistible and that it cannot be rejected. It is established that it is an inner work within the person, but the means by which it is accomplished is not mentioned. Another thing is that it is a specific reference to the captives in Babylon coming back to their land, and you certainly can’t tell me with certainty that every single one of those returning from captivity were regenerated.
I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart (Jeremiah 24:7)
Again, this does not indicate any type of call. It also does not state that the work is irresistible and that it cannot be rejected. It is established that it is an inner work on the heart, but the means by which it is accomplished is not mentioned. Another thing is that it is a specific reference to Judah in Babylonian captivity coming back to their land, and you certainly can’t tell me with certainty that every single one of those returning from captivity were regenerated.
This is just a few. We don't see the gospel as some set of facts to be assented to.
Understood, even though the Gospel is a set of “good news” facts to be assented to. Don’t you think we have to agree with the Gospel?
We see the work of the Father, Son, and Spirit on the behalf of a sinner as all being a part of the gospel.
Amen. I agree.
God promised to do the things above to His people, and we see regeneration as the fulfillment of that promise.
I agree.
In fact, it wouldn't be weird to say that Jesus' death on the cross ensured that the regeneration of the elect would not violate God's justice. His righteousness fulfilled man's covenant with God. His death provided the sacrifice for our sins. Because of His work, God can regenerate our hearts and provide us with an inheritance and remain Holy and just. It is brilliant. It is awe inspiring.
I am in complete agreement and it is amazing!
Our regeneration (and the inward call) is a big part of what Jesus purchased for us on the cross.
Regeneration – I agree. Special irresistible inward call – don’t see it.
Faith, then, is not something we bring to the table to save us.
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 9:2
Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."
Luke 7:48-50
Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." 49 The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
It isn't a condition that we meet in order to be redeemable.
Acts 16:30-31
He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household."
It is the evidence of the Spirit's work in us, a work that is wrought in us because of the promise of the Father and the finished work of the Son.
Okay. However, Scripture does not teach that there is a distinctively special, irresistible, inward call only for the elect.
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Eddie L
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You bolded the wrong part of the verse, though. God says that His influence will result in His people not turning away. He will affect the heart of His people to the point that they will not turn away. If they can't turn away, they sort of CAN'T RESIST!
This promise says that whatever God does will CAUSE people to walk in His statutes. He will change the heart of stone to a heart of flesh.
God says He will give a new heart so they they will know Him. The new heart has a purpose: so that He will be known. It is an internal change, and it has a result. Sounds like an irresistible, inward move of God to me.
I don't think we have to. I think we will. The gospel is not a contract. The good news is that Jesus has saved us.
Do you think Jesus was amazed at the man who had the faith, or was Jesus astonished to see the power of God working even in Gentiles? He was not bragging on the man. He was bragging on God.
Faith is certainly the indicator that the sins are forgiven. It is not the cause.
Again, since faith is an indicator of the work of the Spirit, it is the indicator of who is saved. Otherwise, it isn't Jesus who saves. It is man who saves himself.
You and I aren't talking about the experience of salvation. We're talking about its theology. What had happened in the hearts of the jailer? In fact, what had happened to the hearts of his entire household? Paul was not giving a theology lesson. He was telling an excited man how to claim Christ.
This is what I meant by building theology from a non-theological statement. Paul's theology on salvation is in the first few chapters of every epistle he's written. He wasn't explaining the theology of salvation to the jailer. He was celebrating in the jailer's salvation with him.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree, because I see it very clearly.
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Eddie L
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I'm curious why you think it should be understood that an act of God to fulfill a promise to change the heart of people is ever resistible. Why would we ever consider that those chosen according to an election of grace could resist that grace, if the promise of that grace is a new heart that is purposed to cause us to know God and obey Him? This is the Creator of All Things promising to redeem a people, and that redemption is objectively valuable. What would make us suppose that His promise would ever be a negotiation with those who lack the insight to recognize the value of what is being offered?
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Hey EddieL (you are in red),
OK, here are some promises in the OT that we see the "call" fulfilling in the NT:
I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. (Jeremiah 32:40)
This verse, unlike the others you presented, does not even indicate a call. It also does not state how this is accomplished. The fact that God is affecting the heart does indicate that it is inward, however, it does not indicate if the means by which God will do this is irresistible. From other texts we know that the New Covenant is entered into by faith and we know faith comes by hearing, not by regeneration. An irresistible call only to the elect – not established.
You bolded the wrong part of the verse, though.
Okay.
God says that His influence will result in His people not turning away. He will affect the heart of His people to the point that they will not turn away. If they can't turn away, they sort of CAN'T RESIST!
Well, if this is talking about regeneration, then I agree. Once you have believed in Christ, been justified through that faith, and subsequently been born again by the Spirit, then you do have a new heart and you will persevere in the faith. There can still be resistance to greater or lesser degrees to the promptings of the Spirit and the Will of the Father throughout the sanctification process; however, the truly regenerated individual will ultimately be conformed to the image of Christ.
Still, this verse, unlike the others you presented, does not indicate a call. It also does not state how God accomplishes. It doesn’t say that He puts the fear of Himself in the hearts of those who have faith in Him, but this could be a condition for entrance into the covenant. It just doesn’t say. He is speaking to His covenant people, but yet we know that true Israel is Israel by faith. Is he speaking to natural Israel, spiritual Israel, contemporary Israel, future New Covenant Israel? It just doesn’t say. Does He draw the sinner? It doesn’t say. Does He use the Word to bring them to this place? It doesn’t say.
Does this establish an irresistible call only to the elect – not established.
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Eze 36:27)
Again, this does not indicate any type of call. It also does not state that the work is irresistible and that it cannot be rejected. It is established that it is an inner work within the person, but the means by which it is accomplished is not mentioned. Another thing is that it is a specific reference to the captives in Babylon coming back to their land, and you certainly can’t tell me with certainty that every single one of those returning from captivity were regenerated.
This promise says that whatever God does will CAUSE people to walk in His statutes. He will change the heart of stone to a heart of flesh.
A regenerated new creature in Christ individual has a new nature and will want to walk in His statutes. Even when we fail in that new desire, Jesus has accomplished it, and by virtue of His righteousness that we have received by faith, we walk rightly before the Father. However, as stated before, this text does not indicate any type of call. It does not indicate how God will CAUSE it or if there are any conditions that need to be met for God to CAUSE it. Do they have to be true Israel by faith or just born into the natural lineage of Abraham? It does not say.
It is established that it is an inner work within the person, but the means by which it is accomplished is not mentioned. Another thing is that it is a specific reference to the captives in Babylon coming back to their land, and you certainly can’t tell me with certainty that every single one of those returning from captivity were regenerated.
Ezra 9:1-4, After these things had been done, the leaders came to me and said, "The people of Israel, including the priests and the Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the neighboring peoples with their detestable practices, like those of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites. 2 They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness." 3 When I heard this, I tore my tunic and cloak, pulled hair from my head and beard and sat down appalled. 4 Then everyone who trembled at the words of the God of Israel gathered around me because of this unfaithfulness of the exiles. And I sat there appalled until the evening sacrifice.
These exiles returned from exile and their hearts were still unfaithful. Did they resist God’s Spirit, because they weren’t careful to obey His rules? Were they not Israel? They were priests and Levites? My point is I don’t think you can use these texts to support an inward call. I see regeneration, but there are many questions about how this comes about.
I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart (Jeremiah 24:7)
Again, this does not indicate any type of call. It also does not state that the work is irresistible and that it cannot be rejected. It is established that it is an inner work on the heart, but the means by which it is accomplished is not mentioned. Another thing is that it is a specific reference to Judah in Babylonian captivity coming back to their land, and you certainly can’t tell me with certainty that every single one of those returning from captivity were regenerated.
God says He will give a new heart so they will know Him. The new heart has a purpose: so that He will be known. It is an internal change, and it has a result. Sounds like an irresistible, inward move of God to me.
Again, it sounds like regeneration. But, this does not indicate any type of call. It also does not state if there is a condition (such as faith) to have Him do this work. It is established that it is an inner work on the heart, but the means by which it is accomplished is not mentioned. Another thing is that it is a specific reference to Judah in Babylonian captivity coming back to their land, and you certainly can’t tell me with certainty that every single one of those returning from captivity were regenerated.
This time I’ll use Nehemiah’s account of the returning exiles:
Nehemiah 13:6-1,1Some time later I asked his permission 7 and came back to Jerusalem. Here I learned about the evil thing Eliashib had done in providing Tobiah a room in the courts of the house of God. 8 I was greatly displeased and threw all Tobiah's household goods out of the room. 9 I gave orders to purify the rooms, and then I put back into them the equipment of the house of God, with the grain offerings and the incense. 10 I also learned that the portions assigned to the Levites had not been given to them, and that all the Levites and singers responsible for the service had gone back to their own fields. 11 So I rebuked the officials and asked them, "Why is the house of God neglected?" Then I called them together and stationed them at their posts.
Neh 13:17-18, I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, "What is this wicked thing you are doing-desecrating the Sabbath day? 18 Didn't your forefathers do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity upon us and upon this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath."
Neh 13:27, Must we hear now that you too are doing all this terrible wickedness and are being unfaithful to our God by marrying foreign women?"
Where is the heart that has been given to know Him?
These verses do not teach a special irresistible call. They do show that God regenerates hearts. Of course, I believe He does this… But, I believe He regenerates (makes alive) the hearts of those who have entered the New Covenant and have come into union with Christ (Life) by faith.
OK, here are some promises in the OT that we see the "call" fulfilling in the NT:
I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. (Jeremiah 32:40)
This verse, unlike the others you presented, does not even indicate a call. It also does not state how this is accomplished. The fact that God is affecting the heart does indicate that it is inward, however, it does not indicate if the means by which God will do this is irresistible. From other texts we know that the New Covenant is entered into by faith and we know faith comes by hearing, not by regeneration. An irresistible call only to the elect – not established.
You bolded the wrong part of the verse, though.
Okay.
God says that His influence will result in His people not turning away. He will affect the heart of His people to the point that they will not turn away. If they can't turn away, they sort of CAN'T RESIST!
Well, if this is talking about regeneration, then I agree. Once you have believed in Christ, been justified through that faith, and subsequently been born again by the Spirit, then you do have a new heart and you will persevere in the faith. There can still be resistance to greater or lesser degrees to the promptings of the Spirit and the Will of the Father throughout the sanctification process; however, the truly regenerated individual will ultimately be conformed to the image of Christ.
Still, this verse, unlike the others you presented, does not indicate a call. It also does not state how God accomplishes. It doesn’t say that He puts the fear of Himself in the hearts of those who have faith in Him, but this could be a condition for entrance into the covenant. It just doesn’t say. He is speaking to His covenant people, but yet we know that true Israel is Israel by faith. Is he speaking to natural Israel, spiritual Israel, contemporary Israel, future New Covenant Israel? It just doesn’t say. Does He draw the sinner? It doesn’t say. Does He use the Word to bring them to this place? It doesn’t say.
Does this establish an irresistible call only to the elect – not established.
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Eze 36:27)
Again, this does not indicate any type of call. It also does not state that the work is irresistible and that it cannot be rejected. It is established that it is an inner work within the person, but the means by which it is accomplished is not mentioned. Another thing is that it is a specific reference to the captives in Babylon coming back to their land, and you certainly can’t tell me with certainty that every single one of those returning from captivity were regenerated.
This promise says that whatever God does will CAUSE people to walk in His statutes. He will change the heart of stone to a heart of flesh.
A regenerated new creature in Christ individual has a new nature and will want to walk in His statutes. Even when we fail in that new desire, Jesus has accomplished it, and by virtue of His righteousness that we have received by faith, we walk rightly before the Father. However, as stated before, this text does not indicate any type of call. It does not indicate how God will CAUSE it or if there are any conditions that need to be met for God to CAUSE it. Do they have to be true Israel by faith or just born into the natural lineage of Abraham? It does not say.
It is established that it is an inner work within the person, but the means by which it is accomplished is not mentioned. Another thing is that it is a specific reference to the captives in Babylon coming back to their land, and you certainly can’t tell me with certainty that every single one of those returning from captivity were regenerated.
Ezra 9:1-4, After these things had been done, the leaders came to me and said, "The people of Israel, including the priests and the Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the neighboring peoples with their detestable practices, like those of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites. 2 They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness." 3 When I heard this, I tore my tunic and cloak, pulled hair from my head and beard and sat down appalled. 4 Then everyone who trembled at the words of the God of Israel gathered around me because of this unfaithfulness of the exiles. And I sat there appalled until the evening sacrifice.
These exiles returned from exile and their hearts were still unfaithful. Did they resist God’s Spirit, because they weren’t careful to obey His rules? Were they not Israel? They were priests and Levites? My point is I don’t think you can use these texts to support an inward call. I see regeneration, but there are many questions about how this comes about.
I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart (Jeremiah 24:7)
Again, this does not indicate any type of call. It also does not state that the work is irresistible and that it cannot be rejected. It is established that it is an inner work on the heart, but the means by which it is accomplished is not mentioned. Another thing is that it is a specific reference to Judah in Babylonian captivity coming back to their land, and you certainly can’t tell me with certainty that every single one of those returning from captivity were regenerated.
God says He will give a new heart so they will know Him. The new heart has a purpose: so that He will be known. It is an internal change, and it has a result. Sounds like an irresistible, inward move of God to me.
Again, it sounds like regeneration. But, this does not indicate any type of call. It also does not state if there is a condition (such as faith) to have Him do this work. It is established that it is an inner work on the heart, but the means by which it is accomplished is not mentioned. Another thing is that it is a specific reference to Judah in Babylonian captivity coming back to their land, and you certainly can’t tell me with certainty that every single one of those returning from captivity were regenerated.
This time I’ll use Nehemiah’s account of the returning exiles:
Nehemiah 13:6-1,1Some time later I asked his permission 7 and came back to Jerusalem. Here I learned about the evil thing Eliashib had done in providing Tobiah a room in the courts of the house of God. 8 I was greatly displeased and threw all Tobiah's household goods out of the room. 9 I gave orders to purify the rooms, and then I put back into them the equipment of the house of God, with the grain offerings and the incense. 10 I also learned that the portions assigned to the Levites had not been given to them, and that all the Levites and singers responsible for the service had gone back to their own fields. 11 So I rebuked the officials and asked them, "Why is the house of God neglected?" Then I called them together and stationed them at their posts.
Neh 13:17-18, I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, "What is this wicked thing you are doing-desecrating the Sabbath day? 18 Didn't your forefathers do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity upon us and upon this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath."
Neh 13:27, Must we hear now that you too are doing all this terrible wickedness and are being unfaithful to our God by marrying foreign women?"
Where is the heart that has been given to know Him?
These verses do not teach a special irresistible call. They do show that God regenerates hearts. Of course, I believe He does this… But, I believe He regenerates (makes alive) the hearts of those who have entered the New Covenant and have come into union with Christ (Life) by faith.
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Hey EddieL (you are in red),
This is just a few. We don't see the gospel as some set of facts to be assented to. Understood, even though the Gospel is a set of “good news” facts to be assented to. Don’t you think we have to agree with the Gospel?
I don't think we have to. I think we will. The gospel is not a contract. The good news is that Jesus has saved us.
If you will, you must think you have to. The Gospel is a contract / covenant between Father and Son (perfect man) and is applied to idividuals by faith.
Faith, then, is not something we bring to the table to save us.
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Do you think Jesus was amazed at the man who had the faith, or was Jesus astonished to see the power of God working even in Gentiles? He was not bragging on the man. He was bragging on God.
Mark 6:6 And he was amazed at their lack of faith.
Would you use your same argument here? Is Jesus amazed at how little God’s faith actually was?
To the original verse… Here’s Luke’s account: Luke 7:9-10,
When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.”
Matthew 9:2 Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."
Faith is certainly the indicator that the sins are forgiven. It is not the cause.
No, its not the cause that sins are forgiven, but it is the means by which forgiveness is applied.
Luke 7:48-50 Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." 49 The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Again, since faith is an indicator of the work of the Spirit, it is the indicator of who is saved. Otherwise, it isn't Jesus who saves. It is man who saves himself.
Sorry, they weren’t saved before faith; they were perishing. Man does not save himself, he receives Jesus’ salvation by faith.
It isn't a condition that we meet in order to be redeemable.
Acts 16:30-31 He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household."
You and I aren't talking about the experience of salvation. We're talking about its theology.
The observable recordings of the experience of salvation directly relate to soteriology (the study of it).
What had happened in the hearts of the jailer?
He wanted to be saved.
In fact, what had happened to the hearts of his entire household?
They wanted to be saved.
Paul was not giving a theology lesson.
Experience is a great teacher.
He was telling an excited man how to claim Christ.
Specifically, he was telling him what he must do to be saved because prior to belief in Christ he was perishing.
This is what I meant by building theology from a non-theological statement.
Do you think this is the only verse contained in Scripture that teaches that faith is a necessary condition for the application of redemption?
Rom 3:22-26
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
I could blog the forum, but I’ve already done that. J
Paul's theology on salvation is in the first few chapters of every epistle he's written.
I agree.
He wasn't explaining the theology of salvation to the jailer. He was celebrating in the jailer's salvation with him.
??? He was answering the question, “What must I do to be saved?”
It is the evidence of the Spirit's work in us, a work that is wrought in us because of the promise of the Father and the finished work of the Son.
Okay. However, Scripture does not teach that there is a distinctively special, irresistible, inward call only for the elect.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree, because I see it very clearly.
Amen. I’m okay with that. We both love and trust in the God who has saved us through His Son!
I'm curious why you think it should be understood that an act of God to fulfill a promise to change the heart of people is ever resistible?
The many verses that say people refuse His offers, gifts, provision. The very term “refuse” implies an ability to receive.
Why would we ever consider that those chosen according to an election of grace could resist that grace, if the promise of that grace is a new heart that is caused to know God and obey Him?
They are chosen based on the condition of faith.
Rom 5:1-2
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.
You gain access into the election of grace by faith. Faith precedes a new regenerated heart.
This is just a few. We don't see the gospel as some set of facts to be assented to. Understood, even though the Gospel is a set of “good news” facts to be assented to. Don’t you think we have to agree with the Gospel?
I don't think we have to. I think we will. The gospel is not a contract. The good news is that Jesus has saved us.
If you will, you must think you have to. The Gospel is a contract / covenant between Father and Son (perfect man) and is applied to idividuals by faith.
Faith, then, is not something we bring to the table to save us.
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Do you think Jesus was amazed at the man who had the faith, or was Jesus astonished to see the power of God working even in Gentiles? He was not bragging on the man. He was bragging on God.
Mark 6:6 And he was amazed at their lack of faith.
Would you use your same argument here? Is Jesus amazed at how little God’s faith actually was?
To the original verse… Here’s Luke’s account: Luke 7:9-10,
When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.”
Matthew 9:2 Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."
Faith is certainly the indicator that the sins are forgiven. It is not the cause.
No, its not the cause that sins are forgiven, but it is the means by which forgiveness is applied.
Luke 7:48-50 Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." 49 The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Again, since faith is an indicator of the work of the Spirit, it is the indicator of who is saved. Otherwise, it isn't Jesus who saves. It is man who saves himself.
Sorry, they weren’t saved before faith; they were perishing. Man does not save himself, he receives Jesus’ salvation by faith.
It isn't a condition that we meet in order to be redeemable.
Acts 16:30-31 He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household."
You and I aren't talking about the experience of salvation. We're talking about its theology.
The observable recordings of the experience of salvation directly relate to soteriology (the study of it).
What had happened in the hearts of the jailer?
He wanted to be saved.
In fact, what had happened to the hearts of his entire household?
They wanted to be saved.
Paul was not giving a theology lesson.
Experience is a great teacher.
He was telling an excited man how to claim Christ.
Specifically, he was telling him what he must do to be saved because prior to belief in Christ he was perishing.
This is what I meant by building theology from a non-theological statement.
Do you think this is the only verse contained in Scripture that teaches that faith is a necessary condition for the application of redemption?
Rom 3:22-26
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
I could blog the forum, but I’ve already done that. J
Paul's theology on salvation is in the first few chapters of every epistle he's written.
I agree.
He wasn't explaining the theology of salvation to the jailer. He was celebrating in the jailer's salvation with him.
??? He was answering the question, “What must I do to be saved?”
It is the evidence of the Spirit's work in us, a work that is wrought in us because of the promise of the Father and the finished work of the Son.
Okay. However, Scripture does not teach that there is a distinctively special, irresistible, inward call only for the elect.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree, because I see it very clearly.
Amen. I’m okay with that. We both love and trust in the God who has saved us through His Son!
I'm curious why you think it should be understood that an act of God to fulfill a promise to change the heart of people is ever resistible?
The many verses that say people refuse His offers, gifts, provision. The very term “refuse” implies an ability to receive.
Why would we ever consider that those chosen according to an election of grace could resist that grace, if the promise of that grace is a new heart that is caused to know God and obey Him?
They are chosen based on the condition of faith.
Rom 5:1-2
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.
You gain access into the election of grace by faith. Faith precedes a new regenerated heart.
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Eddie L
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It's been established that its there, gmm4j. I see it and you don't. I suppose there's a conclusion we'll have to trust the Spirit to get us to, to whichever direction He chooses.
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Eddie L
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I logically have to believe the gospel in order to be justified as a person being saved, but we see God's grace as the cause of our believing, the Spirit's power as a primary means of our believing, and the work of Christ as the reason that the Spirit's power caused our faith.
"How little God's faith actually was?" I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. Jesus is amazed that the people in his hometown have less faith than what He had been experiencing elsewhere. He was amazed that a Gentile had more faith than most of the Jews. The core of the reason is the same, I'm sure. He's getting to see what the Father is doing.
Do you really think that Jesus was amazed or impressed by some innate, self-wrought faith of people? If that's true, and Jesus is really going around the countryside bragging on people, why aren't we running around doing the same? Why didn't the apostles?
Sure, but how does "it is the means by which it is applied" negate grace as the cause of faith?
They weren't justified before faith, but justified does not equal saved. Those whose name is in the Lamb's Book of Life have been in the process of being saved before the foundation of the world was laid. We were being saved when God walked between the pieces after he put Abraham to sleep. We were being saved as Jesus earned the title of Passover Lamb. We were being saved as He died on the cross. The Spirit applied that salvation -- He intersected salvation to our personal life experience -- when we believed. We walked among those that are perishing for a time, but our destination was always set. You have to believe this even if you believe that predestination is based on foreseen faith.
We're not discussing whether or not faith is necessary. We're talking about whether or not faith is the result of an inward call.
I think, though, that you impose a double standard. You think you can imply that faith is self-wrought, but even with all the verses that indicate the purpose and result of the gift of the Spirit, you require explicit texts for irresistible grace. You are okay with implications that grace depends on the will of man. Aren't you just bringing a presupposition of ability to the text?
You side-stepped the question. What is there in Scripture that permits us to suppose that a promise of God for a new heart that causes people to know Him could be resisted?
I can see how you could get that interpretation from this passage, but I don't believe that Paul is crediting people as to being the cause of their faith. There are a lot of things from God that can be referred to as grace. Whenever we see the word grace, it doesn't automatically mean forgiveness or influence on the heart or regeneration. To understand what Paul is saying, we need to understand which grace he's referring to. The peace we have with God, made possible by the forgiveness of our sins, is apparently the grace that Paul is referring to. That doesn't mean that we haven't received some other unmerited help from God prior to our faith.
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Hey EddieL (you are in red),
Originally Posted by gmm4j http://www.christianforums.com/t7690263-2/#post61460954
Hey EddieL (you are in red),
This is just a few. We don't see the gospel as some set of facts to be assented to. Understood, even though the Gospel is a set of “good news” facts to be assented to. Don’t you think we have to agree with the Gospel?
I don't think we have to. I think we will. The gospel is not a contract. The good news is that Jesus has saved us.
If you will, you must think you have to. The Gospel is a contract / covenant between Father and Son (perfect man) and is applied to idividuals by faith.
I logically have to believe the gospel in order to be justified as a person being saved, but we see God's grace as the cause of our believing, the Spirit's power as a primary means of our believing, and the work of Christ as the reason that the Spirit's power caused our faith.
I agree and see it the same way, however, I stop short at saying that the Spirit irresistibly makes us have faith. According to Total Inability He has to instantaneously regenerate the stubborn wicked unwilling sinner against His will before he can have faith.
Instead, I believe the Holy Spirit, convicts, leads, and draws through various means, (All of which the stubborn wicked unwilling sinner of Calvinism would reject before regeneration). I see the unregenerate person as having the ability (by the grace of God) to be convicted, led, and drawn by the Holy Spirit as He uses various means to bring the individual to a place of genuine faith. God foresees those who will savingly believe (His elect by faith) and He adequately and effectively provides the impetus needed for them to actually in-time have that faith (their faith) – Though again, I don’t believe He irresistible does this. I believe He wants genuine free-will loving responses toward Him from His creatures; not responses that are forced (irresistible). A puppet can’t resist the string, but God doesn’t want puppets. I do believe once we have believed and have entered into Christ, and into new life in His New Covenant by faith, that He will keep us forever. We are sealed by His Spirit.
So, for example, the OT texts that you presented to show that they would not fall away, etc… I believe those are examples of a new regenerated heart that is granted once an individual enters into the New Covenant by faith. That is why I kept saying that it doesn’t indicate how those promises of a new heart were entered into or the means by which they are given. And, it does not show that there was some kind of special irresistible call (your view), nor do they show that they had faith in order to receive this new heart (my view). These verses simply do not show one way or the other.
Originally Posted by gmm4j http://www.christianforums.com/t7690263-2/#post61460954
Hey EddieL (you are in red),
This is just a few. We don't see the gospel as some set of facts to be assented to. Understood, even though the Gospel is a set of “good news” facts to be assented to. Don’t you think we have to agree with the Gospel?
I don't think we have to. I think we will. The gospel is not a contract. The good news is that Jesus has saved us.
If you will, you must think you have to. The Gospel is a contract / covenant between Father and Son (perfect man) and is applied to idividuals by faith.
I logically have to believe the gospel in order to be justified as a person being saved, but we see God's grace as the cause of our believing, the Spirit's power as a primary means of our believing, and the work of Christ as the reason that the Spirit's power caused our faith.
I agree and see it the same way, however, I stop short at saying that the Spirit irresistibly makes us have faith. According to Total Inability He has to instantaneously regenerate the stubborn wicked unwilling sinner against His will before he can have faith.
Instead, I believe the Holy Spirit, convicts, leads, and draws through various means, (All of which the stubborn wicked unwilling sinner of Calvinism would reject before regeneration). I see the unregenerate person as having the ability (by the grace of God) to be convicted, led, and drawn by the Holy Spirit as He uses various means to bring the individual to a place of genuine faith. God foresees those who will savingly believe (His elect by faith) and He adequately and effectively provides the impetus needed for them to actually in-time have that faith (their faith) – Though again, I don’t believe He irresistible does this. I believe He wants genuine free-will loving responses toward Him from His creatures; not responses that are forced (irresistible). A puppet can’t resist the string, but God doesn’t want puppets. I do believe once we have believed and have entered into Christ, and into new life in His New Covenant by faith, that He will keep us forever. We are sealed by His Spirit.
So, for example, the OT texts that you presented to show that they would not fall away, etc… I believe those are examples of a new regenerated heart that is granted once an individual enters into the New Covenant by faith. That is why I kept saying that it doesn’t indicate how those promises of a new heart were entered into or the means by which they are given. And, it does not show that there was some kind of special irresistible call (your view), nor do they show that they had faith in order to receive this new heart (my view). These verses simply do not show one way or the other.
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Hey EddieL (you are in red),
Mark 6:6 And he was amazed at their lack of faith.
Would you use your same argument here? Is Jesus amazed at how little God’s faith actually was?
"How little God's faith actually was?" I'm not sure what you mean by that statement.
In the Matthew text that I provided, Jesus was astonished at how the Centurion had great faith. You said, “Do you think Jesus was amazed at the man who had the faith, or was Jesus astonished to see the power of God working even in Gentiles? He was not bragging on the man. He was bragging on God.”
I then presented Mk 6:6 and Jesus’ amazement at their “lack of faith” to see if you would use the same argument. Which you rightly did not, because; of course, Jesus was not bragging on how God had or had not given those the ability to have faith.
If Jesus were a Calvinist, and God regenerated in order for the Centurion to have great faith, and He did not regenerate those in Jesus’ hometown leaving them with a lack of faith, why would Jesus be amazed at this? If Jesus were a Calvinist, He would be not be amazed at who had faith and who didn’t. The Father either gave it or He withheld it. In fact, as a Calvinist, Jesus should have expected the absence of faith from unregenerate men, and He should have expected nothing less than a faith response from those (Jew or Gentile) who had been regenerated.
However, if man plays a part (synergism), then Scripture can say as it does, “he was amazed at him”, “he was amazed at their”, etc. If Jesus were amazed at the Spirit regenerating some and not others, Scripture would have said so, but it doesn’t.
Mark 6:6 And he was amazed at their lack of faith.
Would you use your same argument here? Is Jesus amazed at how little God’s faith actually was?
"How little God's faith actually was?" I'm not sure what you mean by that statement.
In the Matthew text that I provided, Jesus was astonished at how the Centurion had great faith. You said, “Do you think Jesus was amazed at the man who had the faith, or was Jesus astonished to see the power of God working even in Gentiles? He was not bragging on the man. He was bragging on God.”
I then presented Mk 6:6 and Jesus’ amazement at their “lack of faith” to see if you would use the same argument. Which you rightly did not, because; of course, Jesus was not bragging on how God had or had not given those the ability to have faith.
If Jesus were a Calvinist, and God regenerated in order for the Centurion to have great faith, and He did not regenerate those in Jesus’ hometown leaving them with a lack of faith, why would Jesus be amazed at this? If Jesus were a Calvinist, He would be not be amazed at who had faith and who didn’t. The Father either gave it or He withheld it. In fact, as a Calvinist, Jesus should have expected the absence of faith from unregenerate men, and He should have expected nothing less than a faith response from those (Jew or Gentile) who had been regenerated.
However, if man plays a part (synergism), then Scripture can say as it does, “he was amazed at him”, “he was amazed at their”, etc. If Jesus were amazed at the Spirit regenerating some and not others, Scripture would have said so, but it doesn’t.
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Hey EddieL (you are in red),
Jesus is amazed that the people in his hometown have less faith than what He had been experiencing elsewhere.
Surely He did not just learn that a prophet is without honor in his own hometown and was astonished at the fact.
How about when Jesus asked Peter, “why did you doubt?”
Matthew 14:31
Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"
Is the answer outside of Peter? Is the answer, “I doubt because God has only given me a little gift of faith.”
He was amazed that a Gentile had more faith than most of the Jews.
Why would He be astonished that the Holy Spirit regenerates? Does the Holy Spirit have a hard time regenerating Gentiles, or rich men (another thread)?
The core of the reason is the same, I'm sure. He's getting to see what the Father is doing.
No. He rebukes for little faith. He rebukes for a lack of faith. Mark 16:14, Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
He wouldn’t rebuke the Father’s work or be astonished by it.
Don’t you think Jesus knew how the Father operated? If the Father, through the Holy Spirit, were directly regenerating these people causing them to have faith, or not, Jesus would not be amazed. However, if it were within the ability of man (without the Spirit being the direct cause), then it would be amazing to see one have great faith and another have a lack of faith.
Jesus is amazed that the people in his hometown have less faith than what He had been experiencing elsewhere.
Surely He did not just learn that a prophet is without honor in his own hometown and was astonished at the fact.
How about when Jesus asked Peter, “why did you doubt?”
Matthew 14:31
Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"
Is the answer outside of Peter? Is the answer, “I doubt because God has only given me a little gift of faith.”
He was amazed that a Gentile had more faith than most of the Jews.
Why would He be astonished that the Holy Spirit regenerates? Does the Holy Spirit have a hard time regenerating Gentiles, or rich men (another thread)?
The core of the reason is the same, I'm sure. He's getting to see what the Father is doing.
No. He rebukes for little faith. He rebukes for a lack of faith. Mark 16:14, Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
He wouldn’t rebuke the Father’s work or be astonished by it.
Don’t you think Jesus knew how the Father operated? If the Father, through the Holy Spirit, were directly regenerating these people causing them to have faith, or not, Jesus would not be amazed. However, if it were within the ability of man (without the Spirit being the direct cause), then it would be amazing to see one have great faith and another have a lack of faith.
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Hey EddieL (you are in red),
Do you really think that Jesus was amazed or impressed by some innate, self-wrought faith of people? If that's true, and Jesus is really going around the countryside bragging on people, why aren't we running around doing the same? Why didn't the apostles?
Ya, but it is not exactly how you are trying to frame it…
Hebrews 12:1
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.
Luke 1:45
Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"
Hey, I’m amazed you have faith in Calvinism.
Do you really think that Jesus was amazed or impressed by some innate, self-wrought faith of people? If that's true, and Jesus is really going around the countryside bragging on people, why aren't we running around doing the same? Why didn't the apostles?
Ya, but it is not exactly how you are trying to frame it…
Hebrews 12:1
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.
Luke 1:45
Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"
Hey, I’m amazed you have faith in Calvinism.
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Hey EddieL (you are in red),
Faith is certainly the indicator that the sins are forgiven. It is not the cause.
No, its not the cause that sins are forgiven, but it is the means by which forgiveness is applied.
Luke 7:48-50 Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." 49 The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Sure, but how does "it is the means by which it is applied" negate grace as the cause of faith?
I didn’t say that it did. It doesn’t negate grace as the cause of faith. However, without faith, “the means by which (forgiveness) is applied”, forgiveness will not be applied to you.
Sorry, they weren’t saved before faith; they were perishing. Man does not save himself, he receives Jesus’ salvation by faith.
They weren't justified before faith, but justified does not equal saved. Those whose name is in the Lamb's Book of Life have been in the process of being saved before the foundation of the world was laid. We were being saved when God walked between the pieces after he put Abraham to sleep. We were being saved as Jesus earned the title of Passover Lamb. We were being saved as He died on the cross. The Spirit applied that salvation -- He intersected salvation to our personal life experience -- when we believed. We walked among those that are perishing for a time, but our destination was always set. You have to believe this even if you believe that predestination is based on foreseen faith.
Hey that’ll preach. I do agree with this based on foreseen faith. However, it is still true that prior to faith they were perishing. We not only walked among the perishing for a time, we were dead and perishing, and under wrath as they are. You are right we add nothing to the Covenant, we don’t bring anything to the table… we just receive by faith what He has done. And, He justifies and saves those who believe it.
Do you think this is the only verse contained in Scripture that teaches that faith is a necessary condition for the application of redemption?
We're not discussing whether or not faith is necessary. We're talking about whether or not faith is the result of an inward call.
Amen. I’m still waiting on any Scripture that explicitly shows a special irresistible inward call for the elect that results in regeneration???
Faith is certainly the indicator that the sins are forgiven. It is not the cause.
No, its not the cause that sins are forgiven, but it is the means by which forgiveness is applied.
Luke 7:48-50 Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." 49 The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Sure, but how does "it is the means by which it is applied" negate grace as the cause of faith?
I didn’t say that it did. It doesn’t negate grace as the cause of faith. However, without faith, “the means by which (forgiveness) is applied”, forgiveness will not be applied to you.
Sorry, they weren’t saved before faith; they were perishing. Man does not save himself, he receives Jesus’ salvation by faith.
They weren't justified before faith, but justified does not equal saved. Those whose name is in the Lamb's Book of Life have been in the process of being saved before the foundation of the world was laid. We were being saved when God walked between the pieces after he put Abraham to sleep. We were being saved as Jesus earned the title of Passover Lamb. We were being saved as He died on the cross. The Spirit applied that salvation -- He intersected salvation to our personal life experience -- when we believed. We walked among those that are perishing for a time, but our destination was always set. You have to believe this even if you believe that predestination is based on foreseen faith.
Hey that’ll preach. I do agree with this based on foreseen faith. However, it is still true that prior to faith they were perishing. We not only walked among the perishing for a time, we were dead and perishing, and under wrath as they are. You are right we add nothing to the Covenant, we don’t bring anything to the table… we just receive by faith what He has done. And, He justifies and saves those who believe it.
Do you think this is the only verse contained in Scripture that teaches that faith is a necessary condition for the application of redemption?
We're not discussing whether or not faith is necessary. We're talking about whether or not faith is the result of an inward call.
Amen. I’m still waiting on any Scripture that explicitly shows a special irresistible inward call for the elect that results in regeneration???
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