Guess how much this Obamacare "surprise" will cost us?

Rion

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I feel very letdown now. Rion, you've posted a bunch since I requested this simple acknowledgment, but not once have you offered that your OP was completely misleading and dishonest. I don't blame you. I blame your source. Perhaps you should learn to be a bit more skeptical of the people you currently trust.

Can I ask again? Was Sen. Sessions providing an analysis that was anything other than pure and utter bullhockey?

A) I did not post "a bunch" between your two posts, that is a lie, as I was hardly on last night.
B) I don't check threads religiously.
C) If we are going to start apologizing, why don't you start us off by apologizing for your firebomb thread where you accused conservatives of being behind it, and then flamed every conservative on this board by saying such attacks were "typical" for us?

I'm not sure what kind of belief that is. All I know is it basically means "After we, the deluge" or something.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Madame_de_Pompadour

Après nous, le déluge.
"After us, the deluge. I care not what happens when I am dead and gone."
Said while the French financial system was on the verge of collapse, as quoted in Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (1898) by E. Cobham Brewer. Brewer states that this was sometimes attributed to the Austrian statesman Klemens Wenzel von Metternich, but that he was probably simply quoting Madame de Pompadour.
 
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SnowCal

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And we're back to pretending that Sen. Sessions was being honest when he claimed that Obamacare increased unfunded liabilities by 17 trillion. The problem is that he wasn't being honest. The bill completely funded that spending and then some.
 
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razeontherock

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And we're back to pretending that Sen. Sessions was being honest when he claimed that Obamacare increased unfunded liabilities by 17 trillion. The problem is that he wasn't being honest. The bill completely funded that spending and then some.

So has it been discovered what the actual cost would be? Frankly, the only justification for such a move I can see is if it were taken out of the public sector entirely and placed squarely upon private individuals, using the advantage of tremendous purchasing power, and relieving the Federal budget from this item.

That's not what's happening. Is it a net increase in Federal spending?
 
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SmellsLikeCurlyFries

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And we're back to pretending that Sen. Sessions was being honest when he claimed that Obamacare increased unfunded liabilities by 17 trillion. The problem is that he wasn't being honest. The bill completely funded that spending and then some.

Yeah, if we want to talk about billions/trillions in unfunded liabilities, let's talk about the mostly Republican Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act of 2003...

Although I suppose, in fairness, the Senate version was pretty bipartisan.
 
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BlessEwe

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How much does Congress cost us a year should be the question.

My 15 year old son is a type 1 diabetic ( type 1 any of your children can get and is not from his lifestyle)
I was just diagnosed with breast cancer in December and with the surgeries, 100's of blood / scans / heart tests and chemo

Why should I lose my house and everything I worked so hard all of my life because an insurance won't pick me up anymore.

These congress people are sitting on their hands for everything it seems while their using our tax payer money for their $$ lifestyles .. Why are these people making my decisions when they are getting Top Notch insurance with our money.

Instead of complaining about everything in this reform Fix it.

We have a Major dysfunction in our System, this is our problem.

I wonder how many of you screaming about this attempt to fix the insurance problems have ever actually had anyone actually really sick, and had to fight the insurance companies for healthcare and insulin for your sick child or a mammogram for a lump you found in your chest. Worried if you were maybe going to lose your home to pay for the thousands I mean thousands of medical bills.

We need to really get into detail research on how much our government costs us and start cutting there. And if they want to continue on with their pitty arguments, we fire them just like I would if I wasn't doing my job.





 
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SnowCal

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Yeah, if we want to talk about billions/trillions in unfunded liabilities, let's talk about the mostly Republican Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act of 2003...

Although I suppose, in fairness, the Senate version was pretty bipartisan.

Yep. One of Dubya's pieces of hallmark legislation. They didn't even bother to fund it. Who cares about deficits ya know?

Interestingly though it certainly blew a big hole into the budget, CBO actually thought that it was going to cost a lot more than it actually ended up costing. People will claim that costs for government programs are always much higher in the end than what was estimated during the bill's passage, but this is actually a great example of exactly the opposite. CBO pretty dramatically overscored the costs of this bill and it turned out being not nearly as expensive as was originally expected.
 
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razeontherock

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These congress people are sitting on their hands for everything it seems while their using our tax payer money for their $$ lifestyles .. Why are these people making my decisions when they are getting Top Notch insurance with our money.

Instead of complaining about everything in this reform Fix it.

I am truly sorry to hear of your circumstances. If you can maintain the payments, you should not lose your home.

The solutions are truly simple, and I point out the vast bulk of Constitutional amendments have been enacted in roughly 2 years from their inception.

SOLUTION 1: place all elected officials on the same health plan and social security the rest of us get. Watch how fast they fix it!

We need to really get into detail research on how much our government costs us

SOLUTION 2: (actually first in terms of time urgency) actually complete a full audit of the fed. The Federal Reserve banking system is a for profit corp., not a part of the US Gov't. They have denied we the people the right to do this, and currently need us to go in at gunpoint, with nobody leaving til it's done. As we speak, they are scrambling to hide assets and cover their ... assets. Since their inception in 1913 their most basic transaction with the US Treasury has been to screw we the people and it MUST be stopped.

SOLUTION 3: once those 2 are done this Nation will be unrecognizable, but we will still need to turn the IRS and their tax code on it's ear, as well as every other regulatory agency. They defy the Constitutional provision of separation of powers.

These are the true issues of our day, and all the media does is divert attention away from that, and sling mud at elections to deter interest.

And if they want to continue on with their pitty arguments, we fire them just like I would if I wasn't doing my job.

This is TRUE GRIT: you do realize you just spoke armed revolution, right? And that our founders thought that would be necessary every 20 years to maintain the type of Gov't they founded? We're 220+ years late to that party ...

http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Shoot-Bastards-Yet-Salvage/dp/1559501898
 
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razeontherock

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People will claim that costs for government programs are always much higher in the end than what was estimated during the bill's passage, but this is actually a great example of exactly the opposite. CBO pretty dramatically overscored the costs of this bill and it turned out being not nearly as expensive as was originally expected.

Is that fact that US budgeting is on par with the accuracy of our weatherman perhaps related to our budget crises?
 
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SnowCal

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So has it been discovered what the actual cost would be?

CBO has provided its estimates. The spending over the past few years is easy to calculate. But unless you have a fancier crystal ball than CBO does, I don't think your wild speculation is of any relevance to serious discussion.

Sen. Sessions estimated what he claimed to be a "$17 trillion unfunded liability" by calculating the increases in Medicare and Medicaid combined over the next 75 years ($17 trillion) and simply slapping the word "unfunded" onto it. The problem here is that this wasn't actually an unfunded expansion. As a sitting Congressman while this bill was being passed I'm certain that Sessions is well aware that the bill provided revenues well in excess of its spending provisions. That, in fact, this legislation created the exact opposite of a "$17 trillion unfunded liability". There's stupidity and then there's intentional dishonesty and this seems firmly in the latter camp.

Frankly, the only justification for such a move I can see is if it were taken out of the public sector entirely and placed squarely upon private individuals, using the advantage of tremendous purchasing power, and relieving the Federal budget from this item.

Can you name anybody who can (and does) use the "advantage of tremendous purchasing power" better than Medicare? Can you name anybody who has less bureaucracy and fewer useless administrators in their system than Medicare? Can you name anybody who throws away less good money on needless medical underwriting than Medicare?

I remember when Paul Ryan proposed his plan to "voucherize" Medicare. The CBO did in fact estimate that it would save the government money (because the vouchers were worth less than the Medicare benefits), but the CBO also estimated that it would dramatically increase the total cost to our society of providing medical care to seniors. Why? Because the amount of bureaucracy exploded. And as the vouchers became more and more of a pittance over the years, ultimately seniors would basically be put in a position where they were back in the days before Medicare, paying staggering premiums almost entirely out of pocket just to have insurance to cover their medical expenses.

That's not what's happening. Is it a net increase in Federal spending?

It is. The specific provisions Sen. Sessions discussed caused a net increase of $17 trillion over 75 years. But it wasn't an "unfunded liability" as Sen. Sessions alleged. The bill raised revenues to cover the expense of those spending programs. Hence the reason why Sessions claim is extremely dishonest. He knows better.
 
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razeontherock

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C unless you have a fancier crystal ball than CBO does, I don't think your wild speculation is of any relevance to serious discussion.

Completely un-called for. What I stated is that if Gov't is going to cash in on (supposed) power to force the public into commerce, it had bloody well be doing it to relieve the Federal budget.

And for as long as your response was, you gave no actual figure of what Obamacare would cost. It's still completely unknown? Somebody's gotta be able to do better'n that ...
 
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SnowCal

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Is that fact that US budgeting is on par with the accuracy of our weatherman perhaps related to our budget crises?

No, not really. Look at the things causing our current budget deficits. We have the 2003 Bush tax cuts. CBO informed him at the time that those tax cuts would almost certainly cause a substantial increase in deficits. They were passed anyways. CBO isn't really capable of estimating the costs for wars abroad, but it wasn't exactly a secret that fighting multiple wars for a decade on the farthest corner of the globe might blow a hole in the budget. You can also look at the Recovery Act. It wasn't a secret that this was going to significantly increase the deficit and CBO scored it as just that.

The major cause of our currently huge budget deficits is a lot older than what we're talking about here though. It's the concept of "automatic stabilizers". The idea dates back to the New Deal. Basically as the economy slips into a recession tax revenue automatically decreases and social spending automatically increases. It operates completely on autopilot. Conversely as you're working your way out of a recession and into a boom, these stabilizers are designed to work in reverse helping to prevent the economy from overheating and to recoup some of the deficit spending by putting the budget into surplus during the boom (as we saw during 2003 though, it's far too easy for politicians to take those surpluses and simply squander them).

Here's some of the big automatic stabilizers:

  • Unemployment: As people lose their jobs during a recession the unemployment rolls swell. This dramatically increases government spending until employment starts to recover.
  • Food Stamps: As people lose their jobs or end up being unable to find anything better than a minimum-wage gig at McD's, the number of food stamp recipients soars. Once again this results in a dramatic increase in public spending.
  • Social Security: Many elderly Americans work past the retirement age because they like doing what they do, aren't ready to give up their livelihood, would like to save a little more for their golden years, or whatever. During recessions countless elderly Americans end up moving to Social Security earlier than they intended to. My employer laid off 800 workers last year (nearly 1/8 of our workforce). We were pretty successful in making sure that the guys ready for retirement took the layoffs so we didn't have to can so many young guys with their entire lives ahead of them. But needless to say, this sudden influx into Social Security once again causes a pretty sharp increase in spending.
  • Marginal taxes: These are also designed as an automatic stabilizer. The idea is that as peoples' incomes decline or vanish altogether, they drop into lower marginal tax rates. As a result they end up paying lower effective tax rates. Federal tax revenue drops dramatically, both in total dollar amount and as a percentage of the economy.
  • EITC: Same thought as marginal taxes. This was an innovation of the Reagan years by the way. As incomes drop during a recession a lot more people become eligible for the EITC. In some cases people actually receive more in their tax refund than they paid in taxes. Tax revenue drops dramatically as a result.
There's plenty more. You could point out all the young Americans going to college today because entry-level jobs aren't available right now. That causes a big spike in spending. You could point out the increase in poverty-level families eligible for Medicaid. Once again.

My point being is that the major cause of huge budget deficits today is because of these automatic stabilizers. They are doing exactly what they were designed to do. But it's also important to remember that during a recovery they work in reverse. Public spending on the stabilizers drops. Tax revenue increases, as do effective tax rates and the share of the total economy. If we don't irresponsibly squander the good years (as politicians are wont to do), this is designed to roughly balance out. But back to the CBO, politicians routinely write and sign legislation that the CBO tells them will blow huge holes in the budget. Why let the stabilizers do their job when you can squander the surpluses on tax cuts and Medicare giveaways, you know?

As the economy recovers, these stabilizers will start to work in reverse and the deficits will erase themselves. Maybe not all the way, there is currently a structural imbalance in the federal budget due to things like the unfunded 2003 tax cuts and Medicare Part D that will still be there until Congress makes decisions about them. But most of the deficit will disappear as the economy recovers and the stabilizers start working the other way.

Onto a very different topic that is also relevant, we often talk about long-term budget deficits. You know, the nightmare that is the federal budget 25, 50 years from now. This is completely different from the current budget deficit. If you look at CBO estimates (which are generally what this discussion is based around), our current deficits mostly disappear and then gradually start to increase, and increase, and increase until their mammoth. Why? A couple causes. Social Security plays a small role. Demographic changes mean that revenues vs spending need to be adjusted. Small tweaks can accomplish this on either the revenue or spending side. It stops having an effect as demographics stabilize a couple decades from now.

The big player, the one that is causing 95% of the nightmare is Medicare. Healthcare spending across our economy has been growing at a rate much higher than inflation for quite some time. It continually swallows an ever greater portion of our economy. The CBO has no rational reason to expect that this is going to stop tomorrow or 5 years from now. And as you may or may not know our government is a huge player in healthcare. It spends more money providing healthcare than the entire private sector does by a pretty good amount. Thus it stands to reason that they are heavily affected by the inflation in medical costs. We need to find a way to deal with this. Simply flinging all Medicare recipients to private companies doesn't resolve the problem. Medical price inflation is as bad there as it is for the public dime. We have to figure out something that will actually work to control medical inflation. One reason I will be tremendously disappointed if Obamacare is struck down is that the bill basically threw the kitchen sink at the problem. They included almost every idea that's been proposed to help control healthcare costs that didn't fundamentally dismantle what Medicare is today. Most have effects on the private market as well and if some work they should help to stop the deterioration of that market.

Does that make sense? That our short-term and long-term deficit problems are actually completely unrelated and that fixing one will have no effect on the other?
 
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SnowCal

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Completely un-called for. What I stated is that if Gov't is going to cash in on (supposed) power to force the public into commerce, it had bloody well be doing it to relieve the Federal budget.

And for as long as your response was, you gave no actual figure of what Obamacare would cost. It's still completely unknown? Somebody's gotta be able to do better'n that ...

It's not unknown and I pointed you to the most respected estimate. That provided by the CBO. But as I said, it's not an actual amount. They can't provide an actual amount. Only people with fully functioning crystal balls and God can do that and I somewhat doubt either exists (I'm much fonder of the latter to be fair).

You could certainly look up what current CBO estimates are. And being as you considered it important, I can assure you that they currently anticipate that Obamacare will reduce the federal budget deficit by hundreds of billions over the next 10 years. The legislation more than pays for itself.
 
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razeontherock

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Healthcare spending across our economy has been growing at a rate much higher than inflation for quite some time.

We need to find a way to deal with this.

We have to figure out something that will actually work to control medical inflation.

:thumbsup: I have said this since Clinton took office, and I was hoping he might accomplish something on this front.

One reason I will be tremendously disappointed if Obamacare is struck down is that the bill basically threw the kitchen sink at the problem. They included almost every idea that's been proposed to help control healthcare costs that didn't fundamentally dismantle what Medicare is today.

Ok so what is the projected net decrease of actual cost in this program? that is something I haven't seen even touched.

Drs charging fee-for-service, will not result in paying less per service, right? If we're going to socialize medicine, wouldn't it make sense to put them on salary? Make the small private (overhead) office go the way of the Mom and pop grocery store and small farm? Economy of scale, have large facilities operate at peak efficiency? Low population areas would be where the least change occurs?

Does that make sense? That our short-term and long-term deficit problems are actually completely unrelated and that fixing one will have no effect on the other?

I'm not sure if this is tongue-in-cheek, but it seems to me that if we can control actual healthcare costs, we will address both short and long-term problems. (Cough) *Defense* (Cough)
 
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razeontherock

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It's not unknown and I pointed you to the most respected estimate.

17 trillion unfunded liability? What else did you point me to - I missed that

I can assure you that they currently anticipate that Obamacare will reduce the federal budget deficit by hundreds of billions over the next 10 years. The legislation more than pays for itself.

If it more than pays for itself, in my terms that means it puts money into our Treasury. That's what I'm saying needs to happen, or at least not take any $ out of it, in order to be worth allowing the Gov't to force the public into commerce. If this were true I'd be all for it, but if that were the case I'd expect that to be major headlines.
 
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EdwinWillers

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[serious];60166216 said:
17 trillion? is that over 75 years or something crazy like that rendering the figure essentially meaningless?

Yes, it is.
I'm sorry - $17,000,000,000,000 is "meaningless?" Oy vay :doh:

Sort of like the $8,000,000,000,000 we've thrown away on the "war on poverty" is "meaningless" too no doubt (nevermind that the "war on poverty" has failed miserably to change the numbers of the poor one iota).

That's the problem with those who view other people's money as theirs - it has no meaning; they can be as irresponsible with as they like.
 
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Rion

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"That" what? Are you agreeing with me? Are you trying to say that the $17 trillion is to be spent sometime within the next five years? What?

I was answering your question.

And we're back to pretending that Sen. Sessions was being honest when he claimed that Obamacare increased unfunded liabilities by 17 trillion. The problem is that he wasn't being honest. The bill completely funded that spending and then some.

I see a lot of posting, but not a lot of apologizing. :(

Forgive me, but do you have a reliable sourcr that shows it's dishonest?
 
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razeontherock

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I'm sorry - $17,000,000,000,000 is "meaningless?" Oy vay :doh:

You have to admit, if we could look at what we expect would happen to costs and overall budget in the first year, it would be a lot more meaningful

Considering rates of inflation esp wrt cost of healthcare, the next 75 years is *kinda* hard to project, and awfully vague
 
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