Praying for tragedy

GA777

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Hold on. I'm confused.

I had asked if Christians should pray that no tragedy should befall atheists in life, even though this may mean that the atheist might end up in Hell forever. No.The happiness on Earth is no match of that in heaven, neither its duration. So no, the true happiness must be prayed for, not the Earthly one because it can be obtained without much hard work and most of the times after facing some bad events. Even more than 99.9% of the Christians wouldn't have been Christians if they didn't face tragedy. So it's always worth a try especially because of the effect of prayer.

Does this mean that you believe that the Christian should pray that tragedy will befall atheists in life, so that they might possibly rethink their views?If they would never change their views if tragedy wouldn't have fallen, then of course as long as the tragedy brings no damnation/suffering to any soul.



Since when has an atheist ever become a Christian because others prayed for him? I'm guessing that number is precisely zero. Or are you talking about the atheist engaging in prayer?You're guessing. Many atheists/non-Christians who converted, mentioned the importance of being prayed for, not to mention that prayer can lead God to do anything without contradicting his will which is fulfilling justice. Furthermore, there are some specialized prayers for unbelievers and of course all this doesn't make sense to you because you don't believe in what we do. And about engaging in prayer, that may be more effective, but who cares enough to do that? Not so many.


Do you pray that atheists will be unhappy in life? Nope. I never did neither will I. I may in the future if that would lead someone to an eternal happiness instead of a temporary and insignificant one.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Answers in Bold.
 
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Theofane

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Should Christians pray that tragedy will not befall the atheist, knowing that this could mean the atheist will end up in hell forever?


eudaimonia,

Mark

If an atheist's unbelief is strong enough, nothing that happens to him can affect that unbelief. No matter how good or bad things get for him, he'll never stop being an atheist. If there is such a thing as invincible belief, there is such a thing as invincible unbelief. Since Jesus will knock at the door of a person's heart but never force His way in, a determined heart can always keep Him away with motion-sensitive alarms, electrifed fences, and vicious guard-dogs.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Me: Does this mean that you believe that the Christian should pray that tragedy will befall atheists in life, so that they might possibly rethink their views?

GA777 (reply): If they would never change their views if tragedy wouldn't have fallen, then of course as long as the tragedy brings no damnation/suffering to any soul.

So praying for tragedy to befall others is acceptable to you under some circumstances. This isn't surprising, but it never ceases to amaze me that people hold this view.

Me: Since when has an atheist ever become a Christian because others prayed for him? I'm guessing that number is precisely zero. Or are you talking about the atheist engaging in prayer?

GA777: You're guessing.

Yes, that's why I said so.

GA777: Many atheists/non-Christians who converted, mentioned the importance of being prayed for

In what way did they think that the prayers helped in their conversion?

GA777: not to mention that prayer can lead God to do anything without contradicting his will which is fulfilling justice.

Why does God need "leading"? Why wouldn't he simply do the same thing anyway?

GA777: Furthermore, there are some specialized prayers for unbelievers

Specialized prayers? Of what sort? What is being prayed for? Why are there still believers if you have this arsenal of prayers with which to lead God?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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GA777

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According to Britannica: A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity. See: Christianity.

A Christian pronunciation (help·info) is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as recorded in the Canonical gospels and the letters of the New Testament according to Wikipedia





Chris·tian
adjective 
Of, relating to, or professing Christianity or its teachings
- the Christian Church

Having or showing qualities associated with Christians, esp. those of decency, kindness, and fairness


noun 
Christians, plural
A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings According To Google Dictionnary




Chris·tian (krschn)
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
n.
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

Accroding to thefreedictionary

I can go on and on, but I'll limit myself to this bit only.

Conclusion : You should have substituted the term 'Christians' with 'baptized persons' or 'persons who think they are Christians' in the 1st post because everyone knows what are the teaching of Jesus.
 
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GA777

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GA777: Many atheists/non-Christians who converted, mentioned the importance of being prayed for

In what way did they think that the prayers helped in their conversion?

Each one pretty much had his way. There is an infinity of factors which may lead to God, but each one may have a certain influence, depending on the number of those who prayed, how they prayed and how long they prayed and other factors. For example, some unbelievers met Christians in their lives not much after and started sharing their beliefs, others had some unexplainable thoughts about discovering if God exists or not or sudden keen interest about reading the bible or praying to see if God may hear them. Some for example, who were committing serious sins against ~everybody would face a certain tragedy making them change their ways for a specific period and maybe forever. If prayer was serious enough, some unbelievers may even witness miracles or something alike. This is rare unfortunately and Christians pray for other Christians instead of atheists much more frequently. But there's one thing which is certain : Everyone has his own free will, so nobody converts if he doesn't choose to. Tho. everyone would after some point.

GA777: not to mention that prayer can lead God to do anything without contradicting his will which is fulfilling justice.

Why does God need "leading"? Why wouldn't he simply do the same thing anyway?

Because if he does it, the number of saved souls will significantly decrease considering how selfish and how much indifference we often show to God that it would be very just for him not to interfere. (I believe the number of saved souls is higher than most imagine it to be btw.). Someone praying to God (sacrificing his time doing something which may be very boring to most of us and suffering to stay focused maybe all night or for a whole week) will move God and make him look at what the one who is praying wants, causing some events to happen in our lives getting us to know him better or to convert which weren't supposed to happen from the first place. He gave us enough anyways in order to be able to lead ourselves : The bible (His word), Prayer (A mean in communicating with him) and a brain. Anyone can easily get saved without getting help from anyone else if he desires to as much as he desires to do other pleasuring things in this life that he may even risk his life at anytime for doing so.


GA777: Furthermore, there are some specialized prayers for unbelievers

Specialized prayers? Of what sort? What is being prayed for? Why are there still believers if you have this arsenal of prayers with which to lead God?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Prayers which are designed to be prayed to help nonbelievers which were prayed by some saints who were very close to God or maybe suggested by Jesus Christ or Virgin Mary (According to some known and trusted apparitions). There may be a place for that in the psalms in the bible. Anyone can make his own easily anyways because God listens to the heart more than he does to the words. And in such prayers, Christians pray for the salvation of nonbelievers.

There are still unbelievers because praying, especially nowadays, is decreasing a lot. Very few do that, and much fewer pray while focusing and meaning what they pray and even if they do that, they pray for a very short period. And I'm pretty sure that small number is helping many atheists without them knowing it and any other Christian or nonbeliever or other religious, because it could get much worse than now. Imagine a world with much less churches or priests and its consequences . Fewer people will have the chance to be preached and the number of believers would be seriously declining, not to mention how the few believers may be affected by the others... Not to mention that the number of people suffering would incredibly increase, wars,famine,diseases and fear will take over our planet. (According to Christianity of course)


Note : I'm not 100% sure of every statement as I came to most statements after some interpretation which may sometimes be wrong of course.
 
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JGG

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A Christian pronunciation (help·info) is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as recorded in the Canonical gospels and the letters of the New Testament according to Wikipedia





Chris·tian
adjective 
Of, relating to, or professing Christianity or its teachings
- the Christian Church

Having or showing qualities associated with Christians, esp. those of decency, kindness, and fairness


noun 
Christians, plural
A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings According To Google Dictionnary




Chris·tian (krschn)
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
n.
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

Accroding to thefreedictionary

I can go on and on, but I'll limit myself to this bit only.

Conclusion : You should have substituted the term 'Christians' with 'baptized persons' or 'persons who think they are Christians' in the 1st post because everyone knows what are the teaching of Jesus.

Okay, so what's your point?
 
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GA777

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I thought I made it clear in my conclusion.
These people are no Christians, because they don't follow Jesus teachings which mean nothing but love.
So Christians must be from the best people there are on this Earth as Christianity teaches the commandments showing the Highest degree of love. (You know what Jesus taught: absolute forgiveness, mercy, sacrifice ...)
 
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JGG

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I thought I made it clear in my conclusion.
These people are no Christians, because they don't follow Jesus teachings which mean nothing but love.

Who said anything about following "Jesus teachings?" I see "believe in," "profess belief in," and "receive baptism," but nothing about following them.

Do you think if we were to ask that preacher in Tennessee who had his congregation beat his own gay son, he would say he doesn't believe in the teachings of Jesus? Professing belief in, and following the teachings are two completely different things. If we were to hold a meeting of all the people who actually follow Jesus' teachings, it seems pretty li kely that nobody would be eligible to attend.
 
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GA777

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Who said anything about following "Jesus teachings?" I see "believe in," "profess belief in," and "receive baptism," but nothing about following them.

Do you think if we were to ask that preacher in Tennessee who had his congregation beat his own gay son, he would say he doesn't believe in the teachings of Jesus? Professing belief in, and following the teachings are two completely different things. If we were to hold a meeting of all the people who actually follow Jesus' teachings, it seems pretty li kely that nobody would be eligible to attend.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7635977-3/#post59960023 You called these people Christians. They didn't follow Jesus teachings.You accused Christians of being evil, so I just corrected your statement because Christians do no evil.

There are many pedophile Priests. Does that mean they follow Jesus teachings too?
And beating isn't always bad , I was beaten hardly when I was a kid, and that helped me out a lot to get my path corrected. I won't change the subject btw. but many times beating must be advised

And No, you're completely wrong. I personally "know" many who follow more than 95% of Jesus teachings. (Many are monks and priests btw). If you can't spot any in your entourage, it doesn't mean there is none. And from the priests and monks I got to know, it is pretty much 70% of them who are that good whether you believe it or not.
 
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JGG

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What teaching are they not following?

They didn't follow Jesus teachings.You accused Christians of being evil, so I just corrected your statement because Christians do no evil.

Christians do no evil? That's what you said, right? I'll come back to it.

There are many pedophile Priests. Does that mean they follow Jesus teachings too?

Again, by your own definitions, a Christian is someone who believes in Jesus and His teachings, not necessarily one who follows them.

And beating isn't always bad , I was beaten hardly when I was a kid, and that helped me out a lot to get my path corrected. I won't change the subject btw. but many times beating must be advised

Wow. So, what are the specific guidelines for when it is advisable to assault someone, and when is it sinful? For instance, telling a congregation to assault a grown man because he's gay, is righteous. But if they dance on his grave once he's dead then they're not even Christians?

And No, you're completely wrong. I personally "know" many who follow more than 95% of Jesus teachings. (Many are monks and priests btw).

Well, that's still 5% where they're not following Jesus' teachings, isn't it? That's 5% where they're doing evil, right? So, by your new revised definition of "Christian" (One who does no evil), they are not Christians at all, are they?

If you can't spot any in your entourage, it doesn't mean there is none. And from the priests and monks I got to know, it is pretty much 70% of them who are that good whether you believe it or not.

It seems to me by Christians tradition, none of them are good. By your own definition they certainly aren't Christians.
 
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JGG

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http://www.christianforums.com/t7635977-5/#post60029490


I had to post this again in case you had forgotten about it.
Once you get the meaning of the word "Christian" and "Christianity", it would be wiser to use any of them in a phrase.

Yes, but each of those defintions seems significantly different from each other (one is a rather outdated adjective, while the others are nouns, some refer to someone who believes in something), and more importantly, from the one you seem to want to employ (while none of the definitions use the term "follow" you continue to do so).

Perhaps you could write your own definition of what a Christian is and is not, and see how that goes.
 
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GA777

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They all show that Christianity doesn't require belief, but showing concern and working also.

You claim to be good and everything while you seriously seem the complete opposite here. Either your IQ is very low (which is impossible of course) or either you're here for fun and entertainment. So, I won't waste any time in such a meaningless discussion. :wave:
 
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JGG

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They all show that Christianity doesn't require belief, but showing concern and working also.

I thought the motto was "faith not works?"

You claim to be good and everything while you seriously seem the complete opposite here.

I have made no such claim. Frankly, my challenging your authority doesn't necessarily make me evil.

Either your IQ is very low (which is impossible of course) or either you're here for fun and entertainment. So, I won't waste any time in such a meaningless discussion. :wave:

Well, not much I can say to that then. Have a good `un.
 
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GA777

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I thought the motto was "faith not works?"



I have made no such claim. Frankly, my challenging your authority doesn't necessarily make me evil.



Well, not much I can say to that then. Have a good `un.

Whose motto?Your motto?

Good was meant here to signify a good person. And that was for many reasons, like twisting words, not admitting being mistaken, giving no importance to a very long PM, playing the drama queen... And of course this can show many negative characteristics.
If you simply did all of this on a forum like this, you wouldn't do any better in society like you claim you do.
 
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