Was Joshua a Gentile?

talmidim said:

Easy G,

If you are going to use that standard to determine someone's gentile heritage, then you better count King David among that number.

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As numerous Jews have always done, there's no issue---for his grandmother (as well as another ancestor, Rahab the Prostitute) were both Gentiles...and the Messianic line of Christ includes it as well. There's nothing in scripture (or really Messianic) to support the concept that one isn't "Hebraic" simply because they're Gentile or Mixed. For what made one a Jew or a Hebrew wasn't ethnicity alone---but how they lived. It's why others could be Gentile in their origins and yet included as one of the people when they joined together/had children with them.....

Ezra 9-10 speaks on that to a good degree. With Ezra 9:8 /Ezra 9-10...as it concerns the priests/people intermarrying...since the time of the judges, Israelite men had married heathen women and then adopted their religious practices (Judges 3:5-7), Even Israel's great King Solomon was guilty of this sin ( I Kings 11:1-8). Although this practice was forbidden in God's Law (Exodus 34:11-16, Deuteronomy 7:1-4), it happened in Ezra's day and again only a generation after him (Nehemiah 13:23-27). Opposition to mixed marriages was not a racial prejudice, because Jews and non-Jews of this area were of the same semitic background. The reasons it seems were purely spiritual.....for one who married a heathen spouse was inclinded to adopt that person's heathen practices. If the Israelities were insentive enough to disobey God in something as important as marriage, they couldn't be strong enough to oppose their spouses's idolatry.

One can go to the NT to see a similar principle when it notes that believers should not marry non-believers (II Corinthians 6:14)....

With Ezra, in Ezra 10:3 and Ezra 10:11 , it has always been interesting to see how the people were commanded by the scribe to DIVORCE their wives and leave their children. Although the measure was extreme, I've heard that others say the intermarriage to heathens was already forbidden---with even the priests and the Levities intermarrying. The equivalent would be a Christian marrying to a devil worshipper. Some have noted that Ezra's strong act was necessary to preserve Israel as nation committed to God. For some of the exiles of the Northern Kingdom of Israel had lost both their spiritual and physical identity through intermarriage...and their heathen spouses caused them to worship idols (I Kings 16:29-34, I Kings 21, II Kings 17, II Chronicles 18, II Chronicles 22-24, II Kings 11-12, etc).



But that leaves open the issue of how to deal with those other Jews who were the product of Mixed marriages.The Story of Esther comes to mind, as she is an example of a Jew who was greatly connected to Gentile culture. For the culture she lived in was one of many differing groups connected together in the Persian Empire...and with multi languages and one where Jews were involved in each ( Esther 1:21-22 , Esther 3:11-13, Esther 8:8-10 ).
Esther 2:1-18 shows how she chose to learn whatever it was she needed for success---with God blessing it. And by her and her uncle placed in leadership, Jews rose to prominence. This is especially interesting in light of how Jews were already returning to Jerusalem after the 70yrs were up (Ezra 1-4) and some had chosen to stay where they had made homes for themselves/lives


As Esther was married to the KING OF PERSIA (Esther 2-8), she was used greatly to save her people.....but nonetheless, she was married to a pagan king. Moreover, as it stands, her story is 30 yrs prior to the events recorded in Nehemiah....and essentially right after what occurred in Ezra 4 with Zerubbabel and prior to Ezra (a contemporary of Nehemiah). If she had children with the King of Persia, would they be considered Jewish? Would they have to consider themselves PERSIAN only? Or would Esthers Jewish faith be imparted to them just like it was with Timothy's mother/grandmother in Acts 16:1-5 and II Timothy 1:5 ? If those children Queen Esther had were to interact with others in the time of Ezra, would they have been exiled/cast away as Ezra requested with the children given to the men who were involved with intermarriage?

I'd side with those who note having a Gentile genetic/cultural background as apart of your ancestry doesn't preclude you from embracing/walking in the Jewish/Hebraic aspect of their culture...and with Esther, although the children from her marriage with Xeres would be half-Gentile, that would not keep them from being deemed Jewish and apart of the Jewish people if they walked accordingly. For a child to be born to a couple where the father was Jewish and the mother wasn't made that child considered as Jewish. Its no different than what often occurs with biracial individuals. People can be both 100% Caribbean and 100% Italian if they are of a mixed background, sharing both cultures within myself. I know Brother Shimshon has often spoken on the subject many times whenever people question him about his being Taino, Puerto Rican and Jewish..( #2#4 #35 #164 )..


But as he well noted as it concerns the issue of how those not ethnically Hebrew were still seen as Israel:
It's the lifestyle rather than the genetics alone that count...

There's no real logic in denying the reality of Joshua having a Gentile background in part due to his Egyptian ancestry, genetically and culturally. That doesn't fade away with generations, although being adopted fully into a tribe changes the emphasis of what culture takes center stage---and with Joshua's ancestry, because Ephraim/Manasseh were adopted as Hebrews, that's is what was considered of Joshua in his time. Didn't mean Joshua wasn't Gentile as part of his identity--but his Hebrew background took precedence.

Lulav said:

If we are to believe this:


Moses speaking:

From Deuteronomy 13

and he was reiterating what happened 39 years before when:

From Numbers 13


All of them were leaders of the Israelites.

4These are their names:

from the tribe of Reuben, Shammua son of Zaccur;
5from the tribe of Simeon, Shaphat son of Hori;
6from the tribe of Judah, Caleb son of Jephunneh;
7from the tribe of Issachar, Igal son of Joseph;
8from the tribe of Ephraim, Hoshea son of Nun;
9from the tribe of Benjamin, Palti son of Raphu;
10from the tribe of Zebulun, Gaddiel son of Sodi;
11from the tribe of Manasseh (a tribe of Joseph), Gaddi son of Susi;
12from the tribe of Dan, Ammiel son of Gemalli;
13from the tribe of Asher, Sethur son of Michael;
14from the tribe of Naphtali, Nahbi son of Vophsi;
15from the tribe of Gad, Geuel son of Maki.



Levi and Joseph are missing. Ephraim and Manasseh take Josephs place and Levi's as well.

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WHAT? :o Believe Torah??

From Numbers 13


All of them were leaders of the Israelites.

4These are their names:

from the tribe of Reuben, Shammua son of Zaccur;
5from the tribe of Simeon, Shaphat son of Hori;
6from the tribe of Judah, Caleb son of Jephunneh;
7from the tribe of Issachar, Igal son of Joseph;
8from the tribe of Ephraim, Hoshea son of Nun;
9from the tribe of Benjamin, Palti son of Raphu;
10from the tribe of Zebulun, Gaddiel son of Sodi;
11from the tribe of Manasseh (a tribe of Joseph), Gaddi son of Susi;
12from the tribe of Dan, Ammiel son of Gemalli;
13from the tribe of Asher, Sethur son of Michael;
14from the tribe of Naphtali, Nahbi son of Vophsi;
15from the tribe of Gad, Geuel son of Maki.



Levi and Joseph are missing. Ephraim and Manasseh take Josephs place and Levi's as well.

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There's an interesting dynamic that occurs with tribes/ancestral aspects when considering how people were adopted into them and given the same status--with future generations treating those adopted as if they had always been apart of that tribe. For Joshua and Caleb, Caleb being descended from Easu and Joshua having Gentile ancestry from the interracial marriage of Joseph and his Egyptian wife/the adoption of their children by Jacob, it wouldn't be an issue for them to come into the camp since they had been included by their forefathers.


Also, there was, if I'm not mistaken, the factor that the Levities were not to have any land given to them due to their duties as priests...and the curse placed upon them by Jacob due to what happened in Shechem with Dinah (

Genesis 49:4-6 Genesis 49 ).

Thankfully, the Lord took that curse/made it into a blessing by using those from the Levite line to establish a nation of priests (with Moses/Aaron leading ) who'd lead the people/be supported by them ( Numbers 35:1-3/ Numbers 35, Leviticus 25:32-34, Deuteronomy 12:11-13/ Deuteronomy 12, Deuteronomy 14:26-28 /Deuteronomy 14 , Joshua 21 etc )--and the Lord commanded at times for them not to be counted ( Numbers 2:32-34 / Numbers 2, Numbers 4:33-35 / Numbers 4 ), especially in regards to going to war and spying out land since that was for the other tribes....whereas the Levites in those situations were to stay at home/do ministry before others.

Joshua was native born in the generation that their patents didn't circumcise their males.

Caleb was a gentile who became an Israelite through 'conversion'.

mpossoff said:

Joshua was native born in the generation that their patents didn't circumcise their males.

Caleb was a gentile who became an Israelite through 'conversion'.

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Joshua 5:1 is fascinating in that regard when considering how the generation that Joshua came from was not circumcised...and even though they were considered to be Israelities, they still were not fully doing as their parents before and had to be circumcised later on.

mpossoff said:

Joshua was native born in the generation that their patents didn't circumcise their males.

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And?

mpossoff said:

Caleb was a gentile who became an Israelite through 'conversion'.

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Don't you mean that Caleb's ancestors were gentile that were joined to the tribe of Judah many generations before Caleb's time?

visionary said:

We know that Ephraim is not one of the twelve tribes.. and if we go by the mother line.. today Joshua wouldn't even be considered a candidate for being made a citizen of Israel because he is not a Jew by today's standards.

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Since Jacob, or Israel, adopted Ephraim and Manasseh as sons, they received what would have been Joseph's inheritance. Thus, there are 13 tribes, not 12, though at times they are counted together as the tribe of Joseph.

It's a good thing that they didn't follow today's standards back then. Inheritance was always by the male line as long as there was a male to inherit.

visionary said:

Males can not inherit their father's Jewishness if their mother is a gentile...

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By today's standards, even though the genetics cannot be removed--and the Judaic lifestyle can still be taught

visionary said:

Yeah.. but they are treated like a Gentile and have to go through the same process as a Gentile.

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More than realized that, seeing how many friends/family that has occurred with where they were Jewish...but due to their mixture, they were not treated according to their cultural heritage. Similar in many ways to how Samaritans were treated by the Jews due to being percieved as being "half-breeds." One of the ladies in my fellowship is Puetro-Rican, but her grandmother is Jewish--and she has had alot of battles to go through in having to deal with those in the family having issue with it (as her father never spoke of it to she was an older adult and began to have suspicions/confirmation from the Lord...and her father confessed it).

Brother Shimshon has gone through this alot, as he has mentioned in many of his discussions when sharing his ethnic background as being Jewish with a Dutch/Taino Indian and Puerot-Rican background (seen here in #2#4 #35 and #164 )..--and it's rather fascinating (although saddening as well). Within Judaism itself, there's alot going on to address that reality--and as shared elsewhere, for more, one can consider one organization from Judaism known as Be'chol Lashon that does alot of work on discussing multiculturalism within Judaism (Especially with those who are biracial)--such as seen here from the article they made entitled ""Be’chol Lashon: Media Center: In the News: June 28, 2000: Shades Of Gray: Multiracial families are growing rapidly and changing " ():

visionary said:

Males can not inherit their father's Jewishness if their mother is a gentile...

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Granted. This is what happens when you put your trust in the traditions of man instead of the Torah.

visionary said:

If he is anything like the one who came to our synagogue, and tells of his childhood being raised by his cohan faither, caretaker of an Egyptian synagogue, only to be rejected because of a mixed marriage.. it is mentally, socially, and spiritually devastating..

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Yeah I get that. But Y'shua doesn't discriminate!

visionary said:

If he is anything like the one who came to our synagogue, and tells of his childhood being raised by his cohan faither, caretaker of an Egyptian synagogue, only to be rejected because of a mixed marriage.. it is mentally, socially, and spiritually devastating..

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Devestating is an understatement...although I never understood why that is the case that so many people trip at. With the person you mentioned having a cohan faither who was a caretaker of Egypt, some of it is rather fascinating to see others throw a fit and yet not considering the many ways Egypt was seen in a positive light in scripture---including giving example of those who were Egyptian Jews....and showing (as mentioned before) the example of Joseph--the Steward/Caretaker of an entire Egyptian nation of which he was a Prince and so were his sons.

Historically, when seeing what occurred with Joseph (Genesis 39-50 , Exodus 1:7-9 , Psalm 105:16-18 , Acts 7:9-11 / Acts 7), it's rather shocking how much power he carried as one intermarried to a woman from the Egyptian Elite. One book that did an interesting job of addressing that was known as The Hebrew Pharaohs of Egypt: The Secret Lineage of the Patriarch Joseph ....and to read the online version of it (although it may not be complete) one can go here to GoogleBooks and see it for themselves (or read here for small excerpts ). Very amazing to consider what was noted, with the book being a reinterpretation of Egyptian and biblical history that shows the Patriarch Joseph and Yuya, a vizier of the eighteenth dynasty king Tuthmosis IV, to be the same person...in light of the king's mixed background and the rise of monotheism during that king's dynasty.

Joseph was used by the Lord to save both the Egyptians and the Hebrews for perishing physically--and it's possible he was used to reform Egypt in other ways...specifically in regards to turning others toward Monotheism/faith in the God he served, as he was already acknowledged as having the Spirit of the Lord within him when Pharoah saw his wisdom ( Genesis 41:37-39 ). Although the author has some perspectives overall that believers can sharply disagree with (such as saying Egyptology and Jews are linked, with Jesus being the end result of "SunGod"worship" like some do and other things some have pointed out ), alot of things have some very plausible points. As some reviewers said of the book:
It doesn't take one being a believer, Messianic or otherwise, in order to acknowledge where a historical individual was referenced in scripture...nor does it take one believing in the Lord in order to acknowledge where certain biblical events did indeed occur. .and it's a blessing to see others who seek to confirm what the scriptures note--such as what has often gone down with giving evidence for the Exodus of Egypt (as seen here , here , here, here and here)---and it has also been a benefit to see the many discussions by scholars that've noted how Joseph was actually around during the era of the Hyskos control of Egypt (as discussed here). Some say that the reasons for Joseph being able to influence the Egyptians is due to where the Egyptians of his day came from--as many suspect they were Hyskos.

As one group of scholars said best:

FAMILY IN EGYPT (GEN. 46–50).

​

Of course, there's alot of debate as it concerns the chronology of events and whether the Hyskos were truly the ones ruling Egypt when Joseph entered the scene/possibly began cultural exchanges in the name of the Lord. For those saying that it seems most likely that Joseph rose to power during the time of the Hyksos, or just before in the 12th Dynasty when many Asiatics came into Egypt, there's also the view that it also seems most likely that the Exodus from Egypt should be equated with the expulsion of the Hyksos..for not all the Hyksos were Israelites, although it does say in Exodus that a great mixed multitude came out of Egypt with Moses (Exodus 12:38).

There are a myriad of considerations one can have...And for other places for good discussion/research:

• Joseph, Egypt and the Hyksos...
• The Advance - Google Books Result
• The Duration of the Israelite Sojourn in Egypt
• IBSS - The Bible - Genesis: The Story of Joseph
• IBSS - Biblical Archaeology - Evidence of the Exodus from Egypt
• Joseph, Egypt, and the Hyksos | Black People Meet | African ...
• A dictionary of the Bible: comprising its antiquities, biography, ... - Google Books Result

Ultimately, with Ephraim and Manesseh being deeply connected/rooted in Egyptian culture and considering that the Hysksos were foreigners themselves, it simply makes no reasonable sense for others (be it Jews or Gentiles) to trip about those who are Jews with a rich Gentile background....

visionary said:

Yeah.. but they are treated like a Gentile and have to go through the same process as a Gentile.

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When it seeing the ways Gentiles are often treated when they have mixed heritage, it really can help to consider what occurred with Joshua and his half-Egyptian/Gentile desendants were adopted/blessed by Jacob....with the calling/ lifestyle being the basis for acceptance--and the act of adoption carrying significant weight. In one of the books I read earlier last year (recommended by another Messianic Jew) entitled "Arabs in the Shadow of Israel: The Unfolding of God's Prophetic Plan for Ishmael's Line" by Dr.Tony Maalouf, it was very insightful studying up on the bloodlines that the scriptures note---and showing how many of them blended (such as Ishmael's line and Easu's as well, for example) and why they often did so through the act of adopting members into the tribe....and making them one of the people just as it often occurred in Middle-Eastern/African culture. More on what he said on that can be seen here, including discussing where other tribes from the Israelite culture adopted others/blended for the sake of survival (as what occurred with the line of Simeon or Reuben assimilating in with others for the sake of survival).

Easy G (G²);59505108 said:

When it seeing the ways Gentiles are often treated when they have mixed heritage, it really can help to consider what occurred with Joshua and his half-Egyptian/Gentile desendants were adopted/blessed by Jacob....with the calling/ lifestyle being the basis for acceptance--and the act of adoption carrying significant weight. In one of the books I read earlier last year (recommended by another Messianic Jew) entitled "Arabs in the Shadow of Israel: The Unfolding of God's Prophetic Plan for Ishmael's Line" by Dr.Tony Maalouf, it was very insightful studying up on the bloodlines that the scriptures note---and showing how many of them blended (such as Ishmael's line and Easu's as well, for example) and why they often did so through the act of adopting members into the tribe....and making them one of the people just as it often occurred in Middle-Eastern/African culture. More on what he said on that can be seen here, including discussing where other tribes from the Israelite culture adopted others/blended for the sake of survival (as what occurred with the line of Simeon or Reuben assimilating in with others for the sake of survival).

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There you go, harpin' on poor old Joshua the half-breed again. It's reminiscent of the treatment the former leader of Israel got for marrying a woman with dark skin. These poor guys were treated like they held public office or something.

talmidim said:

There you go, harpin' on poor old Joshua the half-breed again.

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There you go squeaking again via missing (in context) what's being discussed fully before even speaking up For as the OP is on that and y was discussing that, there's no "harping"--as it is what it is when noting people having aspects of Gentile background..and anyone denying that is harping needlessly on how it was "impossible" for Joshua to be a Gentile when the Book says otherwise

There's no avoidance of the plain reality that Joshua's ancestral line had a strong Gentile background, for as Genesis 41:41-57 and Genesis 50 notes plainly, Pharoah made Joseph more acceptable to the Egyptian/Gentile populace by giving him an Egyptian name/wife--most likely trying to (1) play down on the fact that Joseph was a nomadic shepherd, an occupation disliked by Egyptians, (2) make Joseph's name easier for Egyptians to pronounce and remember, and (3) show how highly he was honored by giving him the daughter of a prominent Egyptian official. And many other honors were given unto Joseph after that as well---with his sons, Ephraim and Manesseh, all partaking of those honors/benefits that came with the Egyptian culture..be it provision from the Egyptians, riches, or even having their grand-father being embalmed at his death among other things.


Although Jacob adopted his Gentile sons/considered them his own, not all aspects of their Egyptian experience/heritage were automatically erased---and that was well in play with Joshua, who would've been aware of that/his descent and being partially Gentile...with the legacy of having ancestors that actively sought to protect Gentiles as well as the Hebrews. With Joshua, He was blessed in having his Hebrew heritage take precedence due to his ancestors being adopted by Jacob---the entire basis of what was said with what Dr.Tony Maalouf mentioned with tribal clains adopting others and setting precedent for others not ethnically apart of something fully being able to gain acceptance/seen as one of the people

It's reminiscent of the treatment the former leader of Israel got for marrying a woman with dark skin. These poor guys were treated like they held public office or something.

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With Moses, that was rather beautiful in regards to his marriage to a woman from Cush--people living in the southern Nile valley..and either in reference to Ethopian or Midian. Either way, the woman was very stunning black woman...and what occurred in Numbers 12:1-3 Numbers 12 was one of the greatest examples of how much the Lord HATES those against mixed marriages (as often said when people say "Well, if her ethnicity is different from yours, it's not right!!!").

Mose's wife was considered as being apart of the people, regardless of her not being a Hebrew ethnically---and that same dynamic occured throughout scripture with others, as noted. The office often made people more susceptible to pot shots from others who didn't like their authority/tried to mask it with other issues (as with what occurred with Miriam/Aaron who were jealous of Moses' position/influence---and chose to criticize his wife since they could not find fault with the way Moses was leading), creating a diversion from the real issue. Happens all the time and it's always a pity whenever I've seen it with friends/family who have folk saying they're "concerned" for them and their children in how they'll handle the pressure of being in a multicultural marriage...but the real issue is that they just don't like anything of mixture/try to cover it.



That said, if you REMOTELY assumed anyone speaking about the difficulties of being mixed as being in the same category as Miriam/Aaron when they said it shouldn't happen, you seriously need to go back/understand what others mean about the difficulties of being mixed...or may need to interact more with others with mixed ancestry/really study what it's like for them For as already said, the issue of mixed background is one of the reasons many see Joshua as amazing, considering his Egyptian heritage from his mother who was the daug

mpossoff said:

Joshua was native born in the generation that their patents didn't circumcise their males.

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Do you feel there was any specific significance in the fact that the generation of parents not entering the land seemed to not circumcise their sons--Joshua included?