What's the Deal?: Lying

DCJazz said:

A thought occurred in my head while preparing for bed tonight. I was thinking about the subject of lying and whatnot, then I remembered that we're not to bear false witness against our neighbor (according to the Ten Commandments, anyway).

But what about other circumstances, where a lie might be beneficial? Like say if an innocent life were in danger, or some other circumstance you might be able to think of.

Basically... when is lying not a sin, if at all?

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It's always a sin.
It's always forgivable, whether it saves flesh or destroys it.
The key is knowing your doin' it and repent.

Proverbs 6: 16 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

I can't see that we should lie. I'd hate to think that God hated my tongue!

Yes, I have also been aware and thought about those passages (except lying to gain riches???) but especially Rahab. I think that she was still living in sin at that time, and maybe in her culture, it was acceptable to lie--some cultures seem to accept lies from woman as expected (or maybe she was a prostitute so didn't care as she did other things that were worse.) I know that she eventually went with the Jewish religious beliefs and married into Israel. So could hers have been a lie as an unbeliever?

My conclusion was that I wasn't sure why we were told not to lie and then given specifics not to lie against certain people. So I just decided I would err on the side of caution. That always seems like a good place to be.

It's impossible to say when something like lying is/isn't a sin. You can't justify any moral action in advance.

Clearly lying is a sin.

Moral courses love to create the delema and ask what is the right course of action. Lying to save an innocent life is fine in my book. Like when Corrie Tin Boom's family hid Jews to protect them from the Nazies that were going to kill them.

I knew a guy who lied all the time. It wasn't pretty. But I've noticed that few people will say to a persons face they don't like their new hair cut.

I like that last one dayhiker, it reminds me of my mother in laws potatos, she asks me, "are my potatoes good"? Well.... I didnt particularly think they were good, but God says all that He made is good (and potatoes are one of those things)... However if I say no, (out of my opinion) wouldnt I be speaking against what God has said in His? So is agreeing with God verses my opinion and speaking his words (that they are good) make one a liar because your personal preference might not be toward those potatoes?

Or like the previous Rahab discussion, Rahab obviously didnt tell the truth to the enemies of God, but she didnt betray those who were of the truth. Betraying the Lords people or being as traitors to Christ as was Judas, (who was truthful) as to where to find the Lord in order to deliver him up to be killed). It speaks of those who would be delivered up to death.

However, if you think about what it takes to be labeled a liar (very simply put) just to say (in word) I love GOD (no one else) just God (and that you love Him) yet (in your heart or in your actions) hate your brother= a liar.

How is that the same as our first thought on what a liar is?

So, if I say (in word) I love God, but in my actions toward my brother I hand my brother over to those who hate him and seek his life (to be killed unjustly) wouldnt that by itself make me a liar, a betrayer, or traitor and thus tossing in my lot in with murderers to do harm to my brothers in Christ? Would faithfulness to my Lord and His kingdom, and his people be better expresed in lying to the enemy about the whereabouts of my brothers and being my brothers keeper (or exposing his whereabouts to his demise and thus become his betrayer?)

Sorta like knowing harm will come to my brother who is being unjustly pursued to be put to death, and I find myself in a spot of either saving his life or destroying it. So would I do as Rahab (who protected from ill will and harm) or do as Judas did? Would I be as those who let down Paul to escape harm or be a traitor to my Lords people and be the vehicle through which that harm may come?

I'm glad Rahab is in the scripture showing how faith works by love and how love ultimately will do no harm to others.

DCJazz said:

A thought occurred in my head while preparing for bed tonight. I was thinking about the subject of lying and whatnot, then I remembered that we're not to bear false witness against our neighbor (according to the Ten Commandments, anyway).

But what about other circumstances, where a lie might be beneficial? Like say if an innocent life were in danger, or some other circumstance you might be able to think of.

Basically... when is lying not a sin, if at all?

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The one who tells a lie is called a liar. Here is a verse about liar:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So, even a white lie is a lie. What WE think is good may not really be good.

Dear DCJazz. In Matthew, Jesus gives us 2 Commandments, on which hang all the Law and the Prophets: 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. 2) Love our neighbour as ourselves. It is Love which God wants from us, freely given and absolutely selfless. We also have free will to follow God`s loving advice, ( Commandments) or to ignore them. We know when we are lying, and why we are lying, and we can be sure that God will know, too. You choose, DCJazz. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

The prohibitions applying to mankind are referring to one's self gain. For one to lie for no other reason but to get someone into trouble for your own fun because you don't like them and or for some other gain such as financial. These last 6 prohibitions were meant to be 'qualified' and were not meant to be a moral blanket for every instance. It would have been 'murder' for the Nazi officers had they been successful in killing Hitler, but they would have spared millions of lives.

1Prophetess said:

Proverbs 6: 16 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

I can't see that we should lie. I'd hate to think that God hated my tongue!

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It's interesting to note that all these verses surround detestable deeds that hurt others, which is detestable to God. You have to look at the context of the entire passage. Using a lying tongue to harm others or cause strife is detestable. I wouldn't think this really applies to keeping your mouth closed or using candor when someone asks if you think their child is cute, or if they look good with the new haircut they're excited about, or to save someone's life

I am curious--do you think that the Bible should have said, "lies that hurt others" instead of a lying tongue?

I would like to lie to protect a person. But I think it is wrong. My mother used to say, "Oh please, don't get me involved" about anything she didn't want to discuss between others. That got her out of it.

If a person says to me, "Do you like my (horrible) haircut?" I'd say, "I liked the one you had last time better, but this is okay." It would be okay (even if it was horrible) because they liked it not because I liked it.

If a person said, "Isn't my child cute?" I'd say, "What beautiful eyes!" Or pick out something else that makes the child cute to me. I have never seen a person that I couldn't find something good even if it was only manners.

So I'd sure try not to lie with my tongue because I don't think that the Lord qualified it.

If someone told me, "tell me the truth and ye shall live" and I told him the whole truth but that person knew I would be requestioned about the truth of our conversation (which I did tell) but he turns and tells me not to disclose the truth of the conversation to them but instructs me to conceal it and I obeyed him would that be lying?

Fireinfolding - I love that you are taking a balanced approach to this, i.e., balancing biblical writ with biblical practice. It seems to me that if we don't balance the two, it leads us to a sort of 2-dimensional approach to life, where we see everything in black and white when it is actually multicolored and multidimensional. I think the flat, unbalanced view is probably easier to deal with for most.

Not to disparage your love of truth, Prophetess... I most definitely see where you are coming from. I would only ask, if a lie would save thousands (as can very well be the case for those in certain positions, especially in government), would you lie? Or would you speak a truth which would lead to massive tragedy? And if you would speak the truth here and justify it by saying you were not the one who pulled the trigger, only the one who armed the killer with the mighty weapon of truth, would you truly be justified? In your own eyes? In God's (I understand the cross justifies you before God, but what about your actions)? In the eyes of those who lost their loved ones?

Fireinfolding said:

If someone told me, "tell me the truth and ye shall live" and I told him the whole truth but that person knew I would be requestioned about the truth of our conversation (which I did tell) but he turns and tells me not to disclose the truth of the conversation to them but instructs me to conceal it and I obeyed him would that be lying?

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Not to give direct information is not lying.

You: Did you use my cup?
Me: (while I did), I used my cup for the tea one hour ago (it is true).

So far, I am NOT lying.

juvenissun said:

Not to give direct information is not lying.

You: Did you use my cup?
Me: (while I did), I used my cup for the tea one hour ago (it is true).

So far, I am NOT lying.

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Hi Juvenissun, deceit is also considered to be sinful (Leviticus 19:11).

--David

DCJazz said:

Basically... when is lying not a sin, if at all?

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Hey DCJazz, I cannot think of an instance where a lie that will cause harm is not sinful, but I'm with several others here in (carefully) believing that lying (or perhaps giving a false impression) is not sinful in certain, extreme circumstances (for instance, when a life is at stake). Along with that, I also say this with GREAT caution, that I believe that a person who intends to cause harm to another does not deserve, nor are they entitled to hear, the truth (if the harm they intend can be avoided by lying).

Also, remember that God commanded Samuel to lie (or perhaps, "deceive" or "cover up" the truth would be better) for that very reason. In 1 Samuel 16, God instructed Samuel to go to Bethlehem for the express purpose of anointing another to be King over Israel in Saul's place. Needless to say, Samuel was afraid for his life. So in order to protect him, God had him lie about why he had truly come to Bethlehem (see 1 Samuel 16:1-5)

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Yours and His,
David