Flee To The Mountains

1whirlwind said:

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A few days ago a poster asked, "As I live in Galilee...just what am I supposed to do? How do I flee into the mountains?" I never believed it was to be seen literally but didn't quite understand what it meant:

Matthew 24:15-16 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
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The corresponding literal passage is:
The implications of a literal interpretation are also clear ...
Interestingly, whether you interpret standing in the holy place literally or figuratively, the bottom line is the same ... the hour of judgement is come.


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1whirlwind said:

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A few days ago a poster asked, "As I live in Galilee...just what am I supposed to do? How do I flee into the mountains?" I never believed it was to be seen literally but didn't quite understand what it meant:

Matthew 24:15-16 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

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I think it's great when the literalists have to ditch the literalism. I can interpret that prophecy by Jesus as literally happening in the first century. When the Romans came into Judea and Jerusalem, the Christians DID indeed literally flee. Here is Eusebius' account:

Whoever these Christians in Jerusalem, they appearently thought they had some sort of revelation that told them to literally leave the area, so they did. It's fascinating that we find just that sort of revelation coming out of Jesus' mouth. Pella is a small city on the opposite side of the Jordan River, in some mountains overlooking the Jordan Valley.








No need to spiritualize the text at all. It really happened.

Yekcidmij said:

I think it's great when the literalists have to ditch the literalism.

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No need to spiritualize the text at all. It really happened.

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So, you were convinced the text was not literal, before you became convinced that the text was not spiritualized?

Did I get that right, Jimmie?


I like your informative post, btw.


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Yekcidmij said:

I think it's great when the literalists have to ditch the literalism. I can interpret that prophecy by Jesus as literally happening in the first century. When the Romans came into Judea and Jerusalem, the Christians DID indeed literally flee. Here is Eusebius' account:

Eusebius, Church History 3.5.3. But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come there from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.
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Whoever these Christians in Jerusalem, they appearently thought they had some sort of revelation that told them to literally leave the area, so they did. It's fascinating that we find just that sort of revelation coming out of Jesus' mouth. Pella is a small city on the opposite side of the Jordan River, in some mountains overlooking the Jordan Valley.

No need to spiritualize the text at all. It really happened.

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So you believe that the physical reality that GOD Created is "more" literal than GOD'S Spiritual Eternal Reality? I hardly think so!! You might want to pray that Christ Would deliver you from such a "literal" wilderness mentality.

Yekcidmij said:

I think it's great when the literalists have to ditch the literalism. I can interpret that prophecy by Jesus as literally happening in the first century. When the Romans came into Judea and Jerusalem, the Christians DID indeed literally flee. Here is Eusebius' account:

Eusebius, Church History 3.5.3. But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come there from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.
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Whoever these Christians in Jerusalem, they appearently thought they had some sort of revelation that told them to literally leave the area, so they did. It's fascinating that we find just that sort of revelation coming out of Jesus' mouth. Pella is a small city on the opposite side of the Jordan River, in some mountains overlooking the Jordan Valley.

No need to spiritualize the text at all. It really happened.

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Nice post Yek. If you read Josephus's War of the Jews, part II, search for Cestius and follow his campaign against Judea from the moment Nero sent him to stop the revolt in 66 CE. When he got to about seven furlongs from the city of Jerusalem, the seditious had fortified themselves in the temple (abomination that causes desolation). Once there was a great disturbance among the residents there, Cestius' army took the opportunity to surround the area and besiege the walls. They fought for about five days before the residents took fear and opened up the gates to allow Cestius to enter and stop the sedition, lest the city be destroyed. Now, I want to show you a snippet from that book and then combine it with Luke 21:20.

"It then happened that Cestius was not conscious either how the besieged despaired of success, nor how courageous the people were for him; and so he recalled his soldiers from the place, and by despairing of any expectation of taking it, without having received any disgrace, he retired from the city, without any reason in the world." - Josephus, The War of the Jews

Now, take a look at Luke 21:20, which never mentioned the abomination of desolation: “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near."

Normally, when a city is surrounded, it isn't forsaken by the besieging enemy. What Cestius saw is unknown. What is evident, Luke 21:20 was fulfilled and there was cause to leave Jerusalem. This would have been the perfect time because the seditious saw that fortune was on their side, meaning that they no longer needed to fight for approval. This gave the Christians a perfect time to leave while the rebels were focused on sticking it to Caesar.

These men that Eusebius spoke about probably saw both the fortification of the temple by the seditious (which included false messiahs) and the surrounding of the city of Jerusalem as their call to evacuate the city immediately. The Jews that remained suffered the worst calamities and the Jewish nation has endured incredible calamities until the end of the Holocaust. Oh, Josephus also mentioned that the Cestius siege began on the Sabbath.

SeraphimsCherub said:

You might want to pray that Christ Would deliver you from such a "literal" wilderness mentality.

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How about you pray that Christ delievers you from your rejection of the things he's done for his people in the past?

Yekcidmij said:

How about you pray that Christ delievers you from your rejection of the things he's done for his people in the past?

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I haven't rejected anything that Christ has done for His people in the past! As a matter of fact my faith entirely rest's upon everything He Did, and Still does for all of His people both then, and now.

I'd say, let the text speak within its own context. All too often, our generation of eschatologists take the text out of its own historical context and assumes our understanding of modern events to take the place of their historical understanding. People in the first century to second century churches would have understood what the mark of the beast and the number of his name meant.

We keep on assuming that the original audience of Revelation had no understanding of what they saw so they just used whatever language they had for that day to describe it. That is simply a false assumption.

Likewise, the crowd the Gospel of Matthew was written to is VERY important and should not be discarded simply because Jesus has not yet returned.

SeraphimsCherub said:

So you believe that the physical reality that GOD Created is "more" literal than GOD'S Spiritual Eternal Reality? I hardly think so!! You might want to pray that Christ Would deliver you from such a "literal" wilderness mentality.

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SeraphimsCherub, I've come to the conclusion that God equates with truth in all things. Given all of our human failings, I've come to the conclusion in recent years that we benefit immensely from the "literal" world around us. Physical laws represent truths which we must live within. God asks us to adhere to only a few spiritual truths, yet it seems that most people have great difficulty with those few. If one cannot abide by simple and immutable physical laws, then what hope does one have with the spiritual? Consider also, this ...
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Barraco said:

I'd say, let the text speak within its own context. All too often, our generation of eschatologists take the text out of its own historical context and assumes our understanding of modern events to take the place of their historical understanding. People in the first century to second century churches would have understood what the mark of the beast and the number of his name meant.

We keep on assuming that the original audience of Revelation had no understanding of what they saw so they just used whatever language they had for that day to describe it. That is simply a false assumption.

Likewise, the crowd the Gospel of Matthew was written to is VERY important and should not be discarded simply because Jesus has not yet returned.

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Very wise post my brother!

NightHawkeye said:

SeraphimsCherub, I've come to the conclusion that God equates with truth in all things. Given all of our human failings, I've come to the conclusion in recent years that we benefit immensely from the "literal" world around us. Physical laws represent truths which we must live within. God asks us to adhere to only a few spiritual truths, yet it seems that most people have great difficulty with those few. If one cannot abide by simple and immutable physical laws, then what hope does one have with the spiritual? Consider also, this ...

Matthew 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
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Very true my brother!

[/INDENT]What He has "said unto you" is written. The Holy Spirit doesn't teach us to read the written word but He reveals meaning, revelations of the Word.


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Amen that was beautifully said!

1whirlwind said:

Yes, it really happened. Many events happen over and over. They serve as examples of what will be....

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
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It isn't that someone spiritualizes the text...it is because that is what is shown.

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Yes, Paul also realized they were standing at the end of the age (and the word there is "age", not "world"). My point exactly.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


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What He has "said unto you" is written. The Holy Spirit doesn't teach us to read the written word but He reveals meaning, revelations of the Word.


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Those verses don't have much to do with our discussion. The first deals with Paul defending his apostleship and message, mainly against a Jewish group who was probably trying to make the Gentiles adhere to Jewish law/practice. The second deals with what would happen to Jesus' apostles after he ascended. Note that the Spirit would bring to remembrance the things that Jesus said. You weren't there, so there's nothing for you to remember, hence the verse clearly doesn't apply to our discussion.

Your technique is to string verses together to try to prove a theological theory you already have in place. On the other hand, I'm going to stick with the context the best I know how.

1whirlwind said:

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A few days ago a poster asked, "As I live in Galilee...just what am I supposed to do? How do I flee into the mountains?" I never believed it was to be seen literally but didn't quite understand what it meant:

Matthew 24:15-16 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

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This morning He gave me eyes to see the answer:

Matthew 3:1-3 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make His paths straight.

3:4-6 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

3:7-8 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:


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The meaning becomes clearer....."When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"



If we are "in the wilderness of Judaea" then we are not "in Christ," we are not in His holy mountain. We are an abomination standing in the holy place. A hypocrite, a pretend Christian, as were the Pharisees and Sadduces. When we see/understand that fact, recognizing our own hypocrisy, we know we are "in Judaea" and then we must "flee the wrath to come" by repentance, by "confessing their sins."

We must leave the wilderness for the mountains, for God's mountain:

Isaiah 2:2-3 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.


Isaiah 40:9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!

Zion and Jerusalem are symbolic of the man child and the church respectively. They/we are to lift up our voices saying "Behold your God!"
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Joel 2:31-32 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

In the man child and church is deliverance, which is a means of escape from the wrath to come. How? Because they speak the words of the Lord....
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Joel 3:16-17 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of His people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.


Zechariah 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

That is the mountain we flee to for then....we are His holy people, His holy nation, His holy city...His holy mountain!
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1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light;


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So, essentially your disproving the Adventist view of the abomination of desolation of our time, and the endtimes?

1whirlwind said:

They have EVERYTHING to do with this discussion.

All things Jesus said to us is written. Surely you don't think His teaching was only for those people of that time?

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I'm just sticking with the meaning of the text. It's all I can do.

Should we not learn as He reveals truths to us? As we mature He feeds us stronger foods, spiritual understanding, as we are able to bear it. If we can't then we are but "babes in Christ".....

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This isn't an argument. Watch this: maybe YOU'RE the babe in Christ? Maybe YOU'RE the one who needs truth, spiritual understanding, and stronger food?

See how that works?

John spoke by the Holy Spirit in the statement below and he was speaking about the future wrath of Jesus aimed at the Antichrist and his armies which takes place after they capture Jerusalem as described in Zech 14:3.
Zech. 14:1 [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!


3:7-8 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: