Musical Instruments in Worship

The psalmist makes it very clear that the psalm  was the words and the  instruments  was to be brought to the words. It might be said, "Take  a psalm, and bring to that psalm the timbrel, the harp, and the psaltery" If someone writes the lyrics to a song it is still a song before he adds the instrumental music to it. In the same way a psalm is a psalm without the instrument.

Some believe that "make melody" means instrumental  music. They will boldly say that  only place melody can be made is on the guitar, piano, or some other instrument. Paul flatly denies this. He says "make melody IN YOUR HEART" The only placed the Christian is to make melody is in the heart. The  heart is the only instrument which pleases God. As we strum the chords of our inner being it brings glory and honor to his name. No other instrument, if you will, can do this. To use anything else would be adding to the word of God and cause your worship to be in vain Mat 15:9. One last thing, if these verses  teach that we are to play musical instruments  then EVERONE would need to play an instrument and sing.

We are to worship God is spirit and in truth John 4:24. The father wants us all to be true worshipers John 4:23. This implies that its possible to be  a false worshiper. For true  worship there  is the proper object which is God. Second there is an  attitude. God must be worshiped in spirit which suggest a dispostion of deep sincerity. Josh 24:14, 1Cor 14:15.  Third the manner of worship is to be regulated by truth which is the word of God. John 17:17.  Worship must be consistent with  the authority of Christ Col  3:17. If any of these elements are missing than the worship is in vain. It amazes me that people think they are free to improvise their own worship system. This  reminds of Jeroboam in 1Kings 12:25-33 and how he made up his own way for the children of God to worship. In fact Paul deals with this very topic of Will-Worship in Col 2:23. Paul was writing to the Colossian Christians about a heresy that was a threat to their faith. This included Judaism, Gnosticism, Pagan system, and worshiping of angels…etc. One thing that was strongly condemned was will-worship.
J.H. Thayer notes  that will-worship is "worship which one devises and prescribes for himself, contrary to the contents and nature of the faith which ought to be directed by Christ" (Greek Lexicon, p 168). Or as W.E. Vine observes, will-worship is "voluntarily adopted worship, whether unbidden or forbidden"(Expository Dictionary, IV , p 236) The NT clearly teaches that the worship is regulate and opposed to the modern view that its unregulated.

Now let me deal with last  part of your argument. What about hymn books, singing in English, and song leaders. I would like to add one, how about the lights or the building we meet at. First of all our worship is to be done decently and in order 1Cor 14:40. Its human decision to choose a place to assembly whether it be a field or a building. It needs to be a place big enough to do things in order. Having electrical lights is an aid to helps us do things in order because it would be very difficult to do things in the dark. None of these aids alter the worship done there. Same thing with  a hymn book it just contain the words that we sing and is an aid to us to keep our singing in order. Nothing  more than singing is done when using the song  book. A song leader again is used to select the songs to keep the worship assembly in order but again nothing more than  singing  is done. However this does not hold true to using a musical instrument. When one plays a piano more than singing is occurring. The noise made from the instrument  might stir up the emotion  in someone but it does not teach, admonish, or speak. It is not an aid because it is used to worship with. Besides all that when God tells us that we are to sing and does not mention using musical instruments I think I will do what God said and not what  man says. I want to clarify the difference between an "aid" and an "addition". An addition occurs when a particular action has been altered, or the fundamental composition or substance of a thing has been changed. An aid alters nothing; it merely facilitates the implementation of the action or substance, without changing anything.


Perhaps several examples will help us focus on this.
1. A cane may aid one in taking a walk, but with or without this device, one is just walking. But if one walks for a while, and then rides a bicycle, he is no longer just walking; something has been added to his mode of travel. Now, he's both walking and riding.
2. A mother sends her son to the market to buy a loaf of bread. He brings the bread home in a bag. The bag is merely an aid. Should he purchase a candy bar as well, he has disregarded the instruction of his mother by an addition.
3. A man takes his automobile to the service center for an oil change. The attendant may use a wrench and funnel to aid in his replacement of the oil. There is no problem with that. But we all understand that if he changes the sparks plugs as well, he has augmented the original instructions.
4. Jesus taught that the communion supper is to consist of bread and fruit of the vine. A table, plates, and cups facilitate (aid) the implementation of those commands. But to garnish the bread with peanut butter, and "punch up" the fruit of the vine with ginger ale, is to be guilty of addition.
5. Christians are obligated to preach the gospel everywhere to the extent of their ability. In order to accomplish this, it is acceptable to use aids (e.g., tracts, television, the world wide web, or a building). But if one combines something with that gospel (as the Judaizers did in the first century when they taught that circumcision, an element of the Mosaic law, is also necessary to receive salvation - Acts 15:1), that is an offense.
6. When the church commences the musical portion of its service, the saints may "sing," for such is enjoined by God (Eph. 5:18-19; Col. 3:16). Christians may employ song books, a projection screen, or a tuning fork (to determine the appropriate "pitch"). Still, though, in the final analysis, they would be singing only.
On the other hand, if the church sings to the accompaniment of an organ, those thus participating have added something to what the Lord prescribed. There now are two types of music - vocal and instrumental. The nature of the original command has been supplemented.
Additions are wrong.
And so, the serious Bible student must conclude that the use of a mere aid only accommodates obedience to God's will. Such expediencies may fluctuate from time-to-time and from place-to-place.
On the other hand, those who respect the authority of the sacred Scriptures will not tamper with the divine prescriptions for worship by the clutterment of additions. They will not add to sacred instruction, for to do so is to invite the wrath of God ultimately.
One needs to remember what happened to those who put God's Ark of the Covenant on a "new" cart (2 Sam. 6:3), instead of transporting the sacred chest as the law had required (Ex. 25:12-14). David later admitted that this addition was "not according to the [divine] ordinance" (1 Chron. 15:16). It pays to know the difference between an "aid" and an "addition." To many, such matters perhaps seem rather trivial. This is because they have never fathomed the concept of the necessity of absolute obedience to the sovereign Creator.


Note the following.

INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC:

    1. IS NOT COMMANDED

    2. IS NOT BY FAITH

    3. IS NOT IN THE NAME OF CHRIST

    4. IS NOT IN DOCTRINE

    5. IS NOT IN TRUTH

    6. IS NOT BY HEARING

    7. IS NOT APOSTOLIC

    8. IS NOT PRACTICD IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

    9. IS NOT MENTIONED IN NEW TESTAMENT WORSHIP

   10. IS NOT AUTHORIZED

I have much more to say but I will save it for the rest of your arguments. Your 1st argument has been answered. I find it quite interesting that it is me or those of the COC that are suppose to defend not using musical instruments when no authority for it is found in the new covenant. Instead, it should be the burden of those using them to show  where they are authorized in worship in the NT.

2.Rom 15:9 says to "sing hymns" and uses the word psallo. This word psallo literally means, "make music". It does not forbid any kind of music a person can make nor does it forbid instruments. Paul encourages the church to sing hymns by quoting Psalm 18:49!

I am really surprised your trying to use this argument Scott. This is an old argument that used to be used in public debates but it has been destroyed in the past and should have been buried. At the time that Paul wrote Eph 5:19, Rom 15:9, col 3:16 and 1cor 14:15 "psallo" simply meant "to sing" or "make melody" in koine Greek (the language which Paul wrote) This verb was translated this way by the 47 translators of the KJV. It was translated this way by the 101 of Americas greatest scholars in the ASV. "Psallo" is also translated "to sing" or "make melody" in the Living Oracles, RSV, TSV, NIV and the NKJ. If the use of instrumental music is inherent in "psallo", why did they all fail to reflect this in their translations and paraphrases?

When an instrument  is intended, the instrument is named. Paul was inspired  to name the heart in eph 5:19. Our singing is to be accompanied by melody made with the heart. But a mechanical instrument is not implied by "psallo". If "psallo" included the instrument, then all would need to both sing and play an instrument in order to obey Eph 5:19. It would be wrong to sing spiritual songs without an instrument and Paul and Silias were out of line to sing in prison unless they had mechanical instruments.

The Greek word Psallo is applied among the Greeks of modern times exclusively to sacred music, which in the Eastern Church has never been any other than vocal, instrumental music being unknown in that church, as it was in the primitive church.

Some through the years have attempted to alter the argument that Psallo includes the instrument by saying thatit does not preclude the instrument.  This only serves to confuse people. The proper question is whether or not authority for the instrument can be found in the command to sing. The obvious answer is no. To sing is one thing, to play an instrument is another. Neither word includes or precludes the other. If one understands that he must have a ticket to enter the theater, he will recognize that he will be unable to get it by showing a button and asking if anything in "button" precludes "ticket." We must have divine authority for all that we do in worship. Jn 4:24. Singing does not preclude playing. Neither does giving, or praying. But neither do any of them include it. Playing an instrument cannot ride into the worship on the back of "psallo".

We do not have 1 single example of instruments being used in NT worship. In all of the  verses Mat 26:30, Acts 16:25, Rom 15:9, Eph 5:19, Col 3:16 Heb 2:2, Js 5:13 a mechanical instrument is not named. God excluded everything outside of vocal singing when he tells us to sing and make melody in our hearts. Again, he does not have to specifically say that you cant do this or that all he has to do is tell us what he authorizes and we are to abide by that.

Historically speaking it is agreed that that the general introduction of  instrumental music cannot be assigned a date earlier than the 5th or 6th century.  I have never read or heard of musical instruments used in the early church. In fact when you study the early church history you find that they forbid it to be used in worship. Even the Catholic Church didn't use them until it was sanctioned by Pope Vitalian in 670 AD. There was a time when prominent Protestant leaders spoke out vehemently against its usage. Martin Luther did. He "called the organ an ensign of Baal."
John Wesley, founder of the Methodist Church, and Adam Clarke, most renowned of all Methodist commentators, both opposed its usage. Wesley, according to Clarke, said, "I have no objection to instruments of music in our chapels, provided they are neither heard nor seen." Adam Clark also said: "Music as a science, I esteem and admire: but instruments of music in the house of God I abhor. This is the abuse of music; and here I register my protest against all such corruptions in the worship of the Author of Christianity"
John Calvin, founder of the Presbyterian Church, said that the usage of mechanical instruments in worship was "no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting up of lamps, and the restoration of other shadows of the law."
Charles H. Spurgeon, an Baptist minister who preached for 20 years to thousands of people weekly in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle located in London, England, did not have musical instruments in the worship (Kurfees 196). As musical instruments started getting introduced more in 1700s and latter it was always met with opposition. It wasn't until  after 1851 that men and women really started embracing the idea.

Not only does the word of God go against your use of musical instruments today so does the history of it. Now your 2nd argument is answered.

3.While the Law was fulfilled, we do not see that the Psalms were fulfilled. The psalms are filled with references of using music, the most known is probably Psalm 150. Jesus fulfilled the 600+ laws of the Pentateuch, but we do not see that he negated the use of instruments.

The classic argument that the Psalms are not part of the law. If I wanted to I could completely destroy your argument with 1 verse but I won't. Instead I want to take this opportunity to show that the Mosaic law has passed away and that we are under a new covenant and we can not use the Mosaic law to authorize stuff under the new law. Then I will easily show you that Psalms is part of the law and not separate from it.

The old Law was written for our learning Rom 15:4 and we are to learn from its examples 1Cor 10:11. You must understand that we are not under the old Law today and it is not binding on us. We are to get our authorization from what is spoken of in the New law under Christ. We can not just pick and choose things from the OT and bring them over into the NT to serve our view. If you can take 1 thing from the OT and make it binding under the NT then all of it can be. For instance we would still need to do animal sacrifices today if the OT is still binding today. Now this may sound strange to you but we are not under the 10 commandments nor any of the Laws set forth by Moses. They do not apply to us today. Now does this mean we can murder, steal, etc today? No. Under the new law we were giving the words that we are to live by under the new system and it so happens that 9 out of the 10 commandments have been implemented under the new law. The only one that was left out was the Sabbath day. Now watch I show from scripture how the Old law is gone and the new one is in effect.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
Hebrews 10:9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Here we clearly see that Jesus is Mediator of  a new covenant by means of death. We can all understand this when we relate this to a will. If I write a will for my family the will does not come into effect until I die. The same was true with the new covenant. It did not come into effect until Jesus died on the cross. When this happened the binding of the OT became null and void and we were put under a new law.

Gal 3: 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Again we see that the law was our schoolmaster but after faith came we were no longer under the school master. We are not under the old law today.

Col 2: 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Here we see that when Christ died the law died it was nailed to the cross. That is why in verse 16 it tells them not to let man judge by those things that were under the law. You will notice that Sabbath days were included here which shows that the 10 commandments were also nailed to the cross. You can also see that the 10 commandments were included in this by looking at 2Cort 3:7. We can also see this  very  clearly in Rom 7:1-7 but lets look at the following verses.
 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Verse 6 makes it clear we are not under the law and verse 7 makes it clear that the  10 commandments are part of that law. Notice that he mentions, "thou shalt not covet". This clearly shows that the 10 commandments are included since this is one of the 10 commandments.

I have clearly shown from scripture that the new law under Christ did not come into effect until he died, which means anyone who died before his death was under the  old law. Christ was the only one to live this law without sin. When Christ died he made the old covenant obsolete. Heb 8:13. I have clearly shown that the 10 commandments are included in the law that was nailed to the cross.


 

Now I will reveal to you the one verse that destroys your argument about the Psalms not being part of the law. Of course I will mention the other verses as well.

Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

I could rest on this one verse my friend but I wont stop with this one that shows that Jesus fulfilled not only the things of the Law of Moses and the prophets by the Psalms as well.
The book of Psalms is a part of the Law.
1. John 10:34 / Ps 82:6
2. Jn 12:34 / Ps 110:4
3. Jn 15:25 / Ps 35:19
4. Rom 3:10-12,14,19 / Ps 14:1-2, 53:1-2

The book of Psalms is without a doubt a part of the law. Now your third argument is  answered but I want you to consider even more evidence from the article below.

A favorite argument of those desiring to use musical instruments in worship is to refer to Psalms. Since the Jews referred to the Old Testament in three areas - law, prophets (including history books), and psalms (including the Song of Solomon, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Job) - how can we know that Psalms, and the other books of wisdom literature, were annulled along with the law and the prophets?
While it is true that the Jews sometimes divided the Old Testament into three parts (e.g. - the law, the prophets, and the psalms - Lk. 24:44), it is also the case that at times the Old Testament was depicted by different, more abbreviated expressions. For example, it is called the "law and the prophets" (Mt. 5:17), or "Moses and the prophets" (Lk. 16:31) - in which case the poetic books were covered under one of these phrases.
More to the point, however, is the fact that the Psalms were sometimes referred to as "law." In a discussion with the Jews, in which he contended for his own divine nature, Jesus said:
"Is it not written in your law, 'I said you are gods'?" (Jn. 10:35).
The Lord is quoting from Psalms 82:6, yet he simply calls it "law." Thus, the term "law" could embrace the entire Old Testament.
Finally, if the Psalms are binding as law today, then animal sacrifices are still an obligation, because the Psalms contain references to offering sacrifices (see Psa. 66:13-15). That conclusion would nullify the complete and permanent sacrifice of Jesus Christ on behalf of human sin.
One must not resurrect any Old Testament practice in an attempt to justify worship conduct under the New Covenant regime. If the use of instrumental music in Christian worship is to be sanctioned, there must be New Testament authority for such. And the reality is, there is none - a fact which some advocates of instrumental music now concede. A current ploy is that "authority" is an irrelevant issue. This is a disastrous conclusion of last resort.

4.Revelations 14:2-3 suggests that worship in the heavens will be accompanied by music - not just singing! So there we go Music is commanded by God! NT worship can and should include music!


Now your really grasping for straws. It is interesting to note that the singing with harp accompaniment in Revelation  5:8, 14:2 and 15:3 does not use "psallo" in any form.
   "And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8).

    This is very obviously figurative language, and even the people who use instrumental music readily agree that at least a part of the passage is figurative, for none of them contend that the elders were carrying prayers about in literal bowls!  If the bowls are not literal, then neither are the harps.  Even if it could be proved (which it cannot) that there will be literal instruments of music in heaven, it would prove absolutely nothing for the use of instruments in the church.  Question: Are the advocates of instrumental music in the worship of the church willing to accept the conclusion from their premise that anything in heaven is Scriptural in the church?  There will be babies in heaven.  Are the denominational preachers (and others) ready to contend that infant membership in the church is scriptural?  Denominational preachers who advocate and practice infant membership are absolutely wrong in their contention and practice.  However, most Christian Church preachers deny that infant membership is scriptural, so this poses a real problem for them.  There will be none married to each other in heaven (Matt. 22:29-30). Are the apologists for instrumental music in the worship of the church prepared to contend that, therefore, marriage upon the earth is now sinful (See Matt. 19:3-9; Rom. 7:4; Heb. 13:4)?  You should remember that what proves too much proves nothing!

    "And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and the voice which I heard was as the voice of harpers harping with their harps" (Rev. 14:2).

    This passage also contains figurative language, and the advocates of instrumental music in the church freely admit that most of it (in fact all of it except the harps) is figurative.  None of them, for example, believe that John heard the voice of many waters but that he heard a voice "as of many waters."  They do not believe that he heard a great thunder but that he heard a voice from heaven "as a voice of a great thunder."  Friends, neither did he hear harpers harping on literal harps, but rather he heard a voice that was "as the voice of harpers harping on their harps"!  The voice that John heard was comparable to the sound of "many waters," "a voice of a great thunder, "and "the voice of harpers harping on their harps."

    "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and them that come off victorious from the beast, and from his image, and from the number of his name, standing by the sea of glass, having harps of God" (Rev. 15:2).

    As shown in the above discussion of Rev. 14:2, John said that what he heard was "as the voice of many waters," and "as the voice of a great thunder," and "as the voice of harpers harping with their harps."  As stated in the discussion of Rev. 14:2, the entire thing is a comparison and, therefore, not literal.
Now your 4th  argument is answered. I put a great deal of time and effort to answer your arguments honestly and scriptural and I hope that you will consider what I have written. I just hope and pray that you will listen to reason and serious think about these things.
God bless all of you,
Cougan

Um. Hi.

I go to a Church of Christ, and we use all sorts of musical instruments, from piano and organ to dulcimer and harp, and everything in between, even the traditional bells and chimes.

Rich Mullins was a life-long member of COC churches. And look at all the instruments he played!

AMISH are the ones who don't allow musical instruments because the aren't mentioned in the NT.

Whoever told you that COC doesn't allow instruments is a liar.

Originally posted by lambslove
Um. Hi.

I go to a Church of Christ, and we use all sorts of musical instruments, from piano and organ to dulcimer and harp, and everything in between, even the traditional bells and chimes.

Rich Mullins was a life-long member of COC churches. And look at all the instruments he played!

AMISH are the ones who don't allow musical instruments because the aren't mentioned in the NT.

Whoever told you that COC doesn't allow instruments is a liar.

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I just heard a broadcast on NPR which highlighted a famous country singer whom the Smithsonian Institute had recently declared a living piece of American history (or something like that.) The interviewer, Morra Liasson, I believe noted that his church would never permit him to play his guitar in Sunday services and he confirmed not only that this was true but that his church was a Baptist church in West Virginia.  The same spectrum of instrumental/non-instrumental churches exists in the Baptist communion. 

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
I don't even know that musical instruments are inappropriate let alone sinful but I do know that they end up monopolizing the worship and pushing congregants into passivity.

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Is there some sort of scientific theory to back that statement up or have you (through your world travels) reached this conclusion through experience? My own personal experience has taught me the opposite. I have been in churches that use no instruments and the people look like zombies at a sing along. On the other hand, I've been to churches that use a full band and the people are standing up clapping their hands and singing at the top of their lungs. Which is right? Who are we to say?

I think we would all do well to remember 1 Corinthians 3:19

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"

Originally posted by muzikdude
Is there some sort of scientific theory to back that statement up or have you (through your world travels) reached this conclusion through experience? My own personal experience has taught me the opposite. I have been in churches that use no instruments and the people look like zombies at a sing along. On the other hand, I've been to churches that use a full band and the people are standing up clapping their hands and singing at the top of their lungs. Which is right? Who are we to say?

I think we would all do well to remember 1 Corinthians 3:19

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"

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Keep posting, my dear muziktime!  I have no better ally here than you.

k..we could go all legalistic here about instruments (argue how david used a harp maybe?) but the point is..this is worship! perhaps the most personal/emotional connecting point we have with God. i believe that the style of music is to reflect the person, whatever is more personal, or inimate. now if you are all into choir style and you feel a connection then thats your thing..but i have been in urban missions before where the only thing is christian hip-hop. how could one argue that it is wrong? personally? im in a third day/jars/lifehouse style band, im all about the instruments. its a talent the lord gave us, that should be used in worship. as well as a tool in ministry. dont be legalistic, listen to the whisper in your heart.

Originally posted by rev_prodeji
k..we could go all legalistic here about instruments (argue how david used a harp maybe?) but the point is..this is worship! perhaps the most personal/emotional connecting point we have with God. i believe that the style of music is to reflect the person, whatever is more personal, or inimate. now if you are all into choir style and you feel a connection then thats your thing..but i have been in urban missions before where the only thing is christian hip-hop. how could one argue that it is wrong? personally? im in a third day/jars/lifehouse style band, im all about the instruments. its a talent the lord gave us, that should be used in worship. as well as a tool in ministry. dont be legalistic, listen to the whisper in your heart.

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Not to burst your bubbly myths or anything but Jesus' condemnation of the scribes and Pharisees was that they violated sound legal analysis to justify their hypocrisy.  If you read Jesus, you will discover he uses the same methods of quoting the law, interpreting the law, and citing PRECEDECENCE which the Apostles and all the Reformers used.

When discussing their payments to the temple as an excuse to avoid supporting their parents, Jesus used a "legalism" which Luther and any lawyer would recognize and support.

The denigration of sound legal analysis under the rubric of "legalism" has given us such horrors as abortion on demand in the Constitution and divorce upon demand in the Bible.  Denigrate it all you want but it will remain the stock and trade of interpreting and applying the scripture and the constitution.

Well lets see I used the bible to prove my propostion and so far all that has been giving in response against what I set out is mere words.

Muzi you would have us belive that one can not truely worship God unless they a jumping up and down claping their hands and doing cart wheels down the ailes. Instruments are used to stir up the emotion in a person. They also are distracting and people will stop to listen to them and at times the isturments are played  by themselves. People will leave one church for another just because the have a more professional band. The mentality is what can the church do for me and can the hold my attention and entertain me. People are losing site of what worship is today. It is not about what I want or if I am entertained we are worship God and we should only be concerned at what pleases him. He is first and we are last. Worship is what you make it and it makes me very happy knowing that I am pleasing God and that the his word is being taught in truth and spirit. People today are like the rich man in Jesus Parable in Luke 12:16-21. Its time we shake the its all about me attitude and relize its all about God. He is our master and we are his servants and we loving our master will do those things that are master approves of.

Rev what do you mean by legallistic? If I am legalistic what does that make you illegal? Now if want to accuse me of trying to follow Gods word to the best of my abilty then I am guilty.

John 14:15 " If you love Me, keep My commandments.

We are under a law today Christ law. If we are not under a law than we cannot sin and we have no commandments to keep.

The Scriptures Declare:

      1. A law of faith (Rom. 3:27)

      2. The law of the Spirit (Rom. 8:2)

      3. Under law to Christ (1 Cor. 9:21)

      4. The law of Christ (Gal. 6:2)

      5. Law of liberty (James 1:25; 2:12)

      6. Royal law (Jas. 2:8)

      7. New Covenant -- my laws (Heb. 8:7-10)

THE NEW COVENANT IS A COVENANT OF LAWS!  (Heb. 8:10)

    "For this is the covenant that I will make ... I will put my laws into their mind and write them in their hearts."  -- Note:

    1. We are under law to Christ (1 Cor. 9:21).

    2. Because the laws of God are in the heart does not mean we are without law (Ps. 119:11).

It is those christians that obey Gods word that will have eternal salvation.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Then you say well if someone has a talent let him use it in worship to God. This is true a person should use their talent in worship but only if it is authorized by the word of God. People have all kinds of talents that even you would not allow in to your place of worship. You want to use this arguement for the use of musical instruments but I know you will not stand behind this arguement to is full extent. A few examples.

1. A person has a talent at shooting their gun very accuratly. So you should allow a person to shoot their gun in worship at a target so they could use their talent to worship God.

2. A former women who used to dance in strip club was very good at doing this and it was her only real talent. You would need to install a pole in your building so she could dance using her talent to worship God.

3. A person is talented in jumping on the trampoline. Now its time to install a trampoline so the person can jump and use their talent in the worship service.

4. A mans talent is being an autioneer. You could let him preach the word autionneer style so he could use his talent. Just visualize this because I cant put it into words.

The list could go on and on. So you see it very important for us to go back to the bible and use its examples and adhere to what the word asks of us to do.

Originally posted by muzikdude
I have been in churches that use no instruments and the people look like zombies at a sing along.

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You know if I had said something like that about "happy-clappy" worshippers, you would have accused me of judging others.

Perhaps you should extend a heart of love to those "zombies" whose hearts may just be pleasing God as they sing along.  The graves to which you relegate them may be a more defensible and holy place than the indefensible plain you have staked out.  The scripture says nothing to require hand clapping and dancing of true worshippers.  However laudable these be, Jesus simply failed to say "A time is coming, and now is come, when the true worshippers of God will worship Him with hand-clapping and dancing."  Your statement indicates you recognize these alone as proof of true worship.

What are you guys gonna do when you get to heaven and the angels are playing harps and other instruments?

Originally posted by Cammie
What are you guys gonna do when you get to heaven and the angels are playing harps and other instruments?

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Since John's revelation indicates that the saints will each be given a harp upon arrival in heaven, I'm going to learn to play a harp to the glory of God.  Until then, I'll play my music with my autoharp to the glory of God outside the corporate worship assembly. 

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
You know if I had said something like that about "happy-clappy" worshippers, you would have accused me of judging others.

Perhaps you should extend a heart of love to those "zombies" whose hearts may just be pleasing God as they sing along.  The graves to which you relegate them may be a more defensible and holy place than the indefensible plain you have staked out.  The scripture says nothing to require hand clapping and dancing of true worshippers.  However laudable these be, Jesus simply dailed to those "A time is coming, and now is come, when the true worshippers of God will worship Him with hand-clapping and dancing."  Your statement indicates you recognize these alone as proof of true worship.

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I'm only referring to what they looked like. I would never presume to know what's in their hearts. Secondly, I am only referring to the small number of churches that I have visited. I don't pretend to have visited enough churches to enable myself to generalize.  I recall asking the questions: Which is right? and Who are we to say? My point is that no matter what our perception is we need to overcome our tendency to be arrogant and realize that no matter how eloquent and insightful we think we are, it is wrong to tell someone that their particular form of worship is biblically incorrect. Unless, of course, it is obvious like human sacrifice...(facetiousness)

Which is more pleasing to God? Connecting with Him in a room full of instruments playing or connecting with Him in a silent room? I don't think it would matter to God if I connected with Him while sitting on a toilet. If instruments distract worshippers then the entire worship program needs to be evaluated. Maybe we should also look at the worshippers themselves. Maybe the problem is a lukewarm church. Either way, I play guitar and I feel the Holy Spirit when I'm playing worship songs but I don't feel that a guitar is a necessity for successful worship.

Worship is a lifestyle, music is my tool of choice to show fruit of the Spirit. Don't tell me I'm wrong or sinning when the Holy Spirit is leading me in what I'm doing and others follow in what I'm doing.

When I go into the General Apologetics forum Atheists are constantly cutting Christians down for their arrogance and  hypocrisy and now I see why. Some of us act like we are so far above the others because we analyze Gods word and brotherly love is thrown to the wind.

That is the reason I quoted Galations. How intelligent and insightful do you think you are? That's not rhetorical, I really want you to admit it.

My answer to that question is: "I'm ignorant and always will be, that's why I rely on the Holy Spirit for guidance"

I try to keep my focus on God so I came to this forum for some fellowship. I love music so I thought this would be a good thread. Instead of fellowship I find belittlement and bickering.

So much for the Christian image and evangelizing.

You can reply to this and claim that it's just a civil debate and no harm is done but I truly believe tha God never intended for His word to divide His children.

Originally posted by muzikdude
Which is more pleasing to God? Connecting with Him in a room full of instruments playing or connecting with Him in a silent room? I don't think it would matter to God if I connected with Him while sitting on a toilet. If instruments distract worshippers then the entire worship program needs to be evaluated. Maybe we should also look at the worshippers themselves. Maybe the problem is a lukewarm church. Either way, I play guitar and I feel the Holy Spirit when I'm playing worship songs but I don't feel that a guitar is a necessity for successful worship.

Worship is a lifestyle, music is my tool of choice to show fruit of the Spirit. Don't tell me I'm wrong or sinning when the Holy Spirit is leading me in what I'm doing and others follow in what I'm doing.

When I go into the General Apologetics forum Atheists are constantly cutting Christians down for their arrogance and  hypocrisy and now I see why. Some of us act like we are so far above the others because we analyze Gods word and brotherly love is thrown to the wind.

That is the reason I quoted Galations. How intelligent and insightful do you think you are? That's not rhetorical, I really want you to admit it.

My answer to that question is: "I'm ignorant and always will be, that's why I rely on the Holy Spirit for guidance"

I try to keep my focus on God so I came to this forum for some fellowship. I love music so I thought this would be a good thread. Instead of fellowship I find belittlement and bickering.

So much for the Christian image and evangelizing.

You can reply to this and claim that it's just a civil debate and no harm is done but I truly believe tha God never intended for His word to divide His children.

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You raise a lot of interesting points and I regret very much that you have felt what you have.  Since you are not enjoying the discussion, I certainly insist that you end it.  When you are ready to give a defense of what you believe, you must be prepared for someone to disagree with you.  When that day comes, you will discover a great deal about yourself, some good and some not so good.  Be kind to yourself and you'll be able to engage in discussion without feeling personally smitten.

I certainly have not attacked you for playing your instrument to the glory of God.  In fact I have insisted that you have an obligation to do so. 

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
I certainly have not attacked you for playing your instrument to the glory of God.  In fact I have insisted that you have an obligation to do so. 

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I appreciate the clarification. I truly felt attacked. You are very condescending and it offends me especially when you insist that I do ANYTHING. I could have this same conversation with a seemingly more humble brother and be fine with it. I'll write it off to a personality conflict.

I have no problem standing up for what I believe but many of your comments seem to say that my heart (or the heart of anyone who plays instruments during worship) is in the wrong place. That's personal, and judgemental. I apologize if that isn't the point you are trying to make but it surely is the impression you give.

You seem to be delighted with yourself. I'm glad you're happy.

God bless

Originally posted by muzikdude
I appreciate the clarification. I truly felt attacked. You are very condescending and it offends me especially when you insist that I do ANYTHING. I could have this same conversation with a seemingly more humble brother and be fine with it. I'll write it off to a personality conflict.

I have no problem standing up for what I believe but many of your comments seem to say that my heart (or anyone who plays instruments during worship) is in the wrong place. That's personal, and judgemental. I apologize if that isn't the point you are trying to make but it surely is the impression you give.

You seem to be delighted with yourself. I'm glad you're happy.

God bless

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Thank you for your comments.  I will take them to heart in analyzing how to respond in a medium which imperfectly communicates not only intent but manner.  I will not let that imperfection prevent me from seriously considering that I am arrogant and proud.  Thank you for admonishing me to be a better person.  You will forgive me if I do not return the kindness.