Who still believes the church is around for the antichrist?

Chaddy · Dec 10, 2010

trialbyfire said:
The answer is we today have a better understanding of a lot of the Scripture because we have 2000 years of historical perspective to compare AND with the invention of computers and Bible software, we have the ability to compare Scripture with Scripture more readily.

But I would also add that regardless of our place/time in history, we have all had access to the same Spirit who teaches us.

When Daniel was given his visions and angelic explanations, he was very perplexed and was told in Daniel 12:

4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The fact that they are Christians standing in heaven wearing white robes that were given in the 5th seal should be a big hint.

God has protected us and will continue to do so until Jesus comes:

1 Peter 1: 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by Gods power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faithof greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by firemay result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

Do you think you could some how make a chart or something, condensing the info of the 7 seals, trumps, and vials, and what all you think happens in each one?

miamited · Dec 10, 2010

Hi TBF,

You responded:
It does not say, "apostasy". It says, apostasia, a Greek word that means departure. Apostasy means departure from principles, religion, place of standing. Forsake means departure from friends, religion, just about anything. "From the faith" is not even implied by Paul but added by men. Paul described the departure in the very first line:

And this 'definition' of yours would be different from our word 'apostasy' how? Our basic definition is a 'departure from religious beliefs or loyalty. Friend, everything that Paul spoke to us about was regarding faith. You believe that the greek word 'apostasia' refers to some spatial separation. I don't find that intent in the greek definitions that I have come across. It seems to always refer to the forsaking of certain thoughts or ideas. To fall away from some earlier held belief.

You then posted:
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

That's a wonderful place of Scripture, but there is no timeline inferred. Yes, the Lord shall descend and the faithful in Christ shall ascend, but when? There is absolutely no inference in this piece of Scripture as to 'when' theis event will occur and just as Paul concludes, we should comfort ourselves with this knowledge, but when does it occur. Now, you may be a pre-trib and throw into this that it obviously will occur before the Antichrist, but you can't 'prove' that through this Scripture. Just as I can say, no, this obviously will occur after the Antichrist, but there is no way I can prove any timeline based solely on this piece of Scripture.

If you want to read into the Scriptures your own prejudices, go ahead, but don't expect your prejudices to 'prove' that some holy writing says what you think it says over and above what someone else thinks it says. Let's look at the Scripture in question and let's base our understanding on the facts entered into evidence in the Scripture. This piece of Scripture gives no indicationn of 'when' Jesus will return.

However, friend, we both agree that those who have trusted in the Lord will rise to meet him in the air to live forever with him whenever he returns and my encouragement is that we persevere in learning and understanding and teaching the righteous things of God until that day, whenever it comes.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

1whirlwind · Dec 10, 2010

Chaddy said:
So Christ returns before the 6th seal?

No. Jesus, who is the only One you should listen to, for there are many wolves in sheeps clothing, many false teachers that appear so holy and righteous, and are misleading God's children today. There is NO RAPTURE, no flying away, no being gathered to Him until the end of Satan's tribulation. We will all be here and will experience his DECEPTION, and this rapture stuff is a huge part of the deception/tribulation.

11 Thessalonians 2:1,3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, (3) Let NO MAN DECEIVE YOU by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The delusion is that Satan comes first...pretending to be Christ, Christ coming to rapture them away. People are being misled into believing Christ comes before that time of the great tribulation but....what does Christ tell us?

Matthew 24:21-23 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ,' or 'there;' believe it not.

24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So, He has written the truth. We must accept it or the word of man (and woman) that tells us we'll be flown away while the rest of the world is in complete turmoil. And, it is important to know this truth for He warned....."And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; That they all might be damned who believed not the truth."

.

SwordoftheLord · Dec 10, 2010

trialbyfire said:
The answer is we today have a better understanding of a lot of the Scripture because we have 2000 years of historical perspective to compare AND with the invention of computers and Bible software, we have the ability to compare Scripture with Scripture more readily.

But I would also add that regardless of our place/time in history, we have all had access to the same Spirit who teaches us.

When Daniel was given his visions and angelic explanations, he was very perplexed and was told in Daniel 12:

4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The fact that they are Christians standing in heaven wearing white robes that were given in the 5th seal should be a big hint.

God has protected us and will continue to do so until Jesus comes:

1 Peter 1: 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by Gods power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faithof greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by firemay result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

Ok so because of computers and history we have@a better understanding than the early church fathers. That is nuts. The pretrib, or rapture theory didn't come about until john nelson darby met with a catholic schoolgirl who had a vision of this rapture. And christians ever since have been perverting and twisting scripture to try and prove it.

So by your post your telling me that POLYCARP who was a student of JOHN(who wrote the book of revelation) was wrong because he didn't believe in your rapture theory? Or iraneus, or ignatius are wrong because they didn't believe it yet they lived around 100-300 a.

Chris81 · Dec 10, 2010

SwordoftheLord said:
Ok so because of computers and history we have@a better understanding than the early church fathers. That is nuts. The pretrib, or rapture theory didn't come about until john nelson darby met with a catholic schoolgirl who had a vision of this rapture. And christians ever since have been perverting and twisting scripture to try and prove it.

So by your post your telling me that POLYCARP who was a student of JOHN(who wrote the book of revelation) was wrong because he didn't believe in your rapture theory? Or iraneus, or ignatius are wrong because they didn't believe it yet they lived around 100-300 a.

Thank you that was an excellent response. Yes the idea that we are somehow more enlightened and can reason the 'true' meaning of scriptures better than the early church fathers is preposterous. The early Christians who lived during or near the time of the writing of the New Testament scriptures understood the original intent of scripture which should always be the basis for our interpretation.

In the last 2000 years we have not gained a better understanding of scriptures, instead it seems that many instead have sought to manipulate scripture from its true original intent in order to rationalize their own modern theological leanings.

ivebeenshown · Dec 10, 2010

1whirlwind said:
The Lord tells us....it is wicked to hunt souls to make them fly. God's salvation of the church doesn't have anything to do with flying away in a rapture scenario. It is just the opposite!

I'm sorry but seriously, what?

New Living Translation (©2007)
This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against all your magic charms, which you use to ensnare my people like birds. I will tear them from your arms, setting my people free like birds set free from a cage.

Even if you just look at the Hebrew it's not about 'hunting souls to make them fly', it's imagery of people trapped like birds in a cage of superstitious magic charms. Do you realize how nonsensical 'sewing pillows to armholes' is, let alone 'sewing pillows to armholes to hunt souls to make them fly'?

JesusServant · Dec 10, 2010

trialbyfire said:
Scripture indicates in several places that the church departs before the antichrist is revealed on the Day of the Lord (wrath).

Who dares to dispute that fact and wants to debate it?

(You'd better know your Bible!)

Unless Paul lied we'll be here for the revealing of the antichrist...

2nd Thessalonians 2:2-3 -

that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

Okay, to use your words, you obviously don't know your Bible, not just people who disagree with the view you've been taught and accepted.

And the rapture is easy to disprove with the words of Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. Both places Jesus says AFTER the tribulation of those days the elect will be gathered. To get around this fact, the sellers (and yes, they're making some loot on this fiction) of the pre-tribulation rapture theorists have to come up with at least two raptures.

Stop underestimating our Lord. He is able to preserve us in the fires to come. Did He not protect Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego in the furnace? Did He HIMSELF not protect them? And if you are one of the ones to be killed with the sword, is absence from the body not to be present with the Lord?

Stop setting people up to be disappointed when they're still here. Now, without the Holy Spirit we won't persevere (10 virgins parable), but with and through Him we will be able to take on whatever the Lord puts in our path.

God bless and stop perpetuating false teaching please
-JS

visionary · Dec 10, 2010

Of course, the anti-christ will encounter the church, after all that is what is the ultimate test for a believer..even the elect will have a hard time if the Lord hadn't cut it to just a short time.

trialbyfire · Dec 10, 2010

Chaddy said:
Do you think you could some how make a chart or something, condensing the info of the 7 seals, trumps, and vials, and what all you think happens in each one?

I can but it will take a little time. I'm better with outlines.

trialbyfire · Dec 10, 2010

miamited said:
Hi TBF,

You responded:
It does not say, "apostasy". It says, apostasia, a Greek word that means departure. Apostasy means departure from principles, religion, place of standing. Forsake means departure from friends, religion, just about anything. "From the faith" is not even implied by Paul but added by men. Paul described the departure in the very first line:

And this 'definition' of yours would be different from our word 'apostasy' how? Our basic definition is a 'departure from religious beliefs or loyalty. Friend, everything that Paul spoke to us about was regarding faith. You believe that the greek word 'apostasia' refers to some spatial separation. I don't find that intent in the greek definitions that I have come across. It seems to always refer to the forsaking of certain thoughts or ideas. To fall away from some earlier held belief.

You then posted:
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

That's a wonderful place of Scripture, but there is no timeline inferred. Yes, the Lord shall descend and the faithful in Christ shall ascend, but when? There is absolutely no inference in this piece of Scripture as to 'when' theis event will occur and just as Paul concludes, we should comfort ourselves with this knowledge, but when does it occur. Now, you may be a pre-trib and throw into this that it obviously will occur before the Antichrist, but you can't 'prove' that through this Scripture. Just as I can say, no, this obviously will occur after the Antichrist, but there is no way I can prove any timeline based solely on this piece of Scripture.

If you want to read into the Scriptures your own prejudices, go ahead, but don't expect your prejudices to 'prove' that some holy writing says what you think it says over and above what someone else thinks it says. Let's look at the Scripture in question and let's base our understanding on the facts entered into evidence in the Scripture. This piece of Scripture gives no indicationn of 'when' Jesus will return.

However, friend, we both agree that those who have trusted in the Lord will rise to meet him in the air to live forever with him whenever he returns and my encouragement is that we persevere in learning and understanding and teaching the righteous things of God until that day, whenever it comes.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Paul said the same thing in 1 Thess 4 AND 5 that he did in 2 Thess 2.

The timing of the departure of the church, according to Paul in both of those passages is just before the Day of the Lord.

Here are the pertinent scriptures that give us the timing:

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Think over that passage. Do you not see that Paul said that Christ removes the church before the Day of the Lord (wrath) begins?

He said the exact same thing in this passage:

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first,

So, yes, those passage do indeed tell us that the church is gathered to Christ before the Day of the Lord (wrath) begins.

Joel 2 confirms it. Revelation 6-8 confirms it. Revelation 12 confirms it.
Isaiah 26:19-21 confirms it. Psalm 50:4-5 confirms it. Psalm 75:2 confirms it.

The church is removed before the Day of the Lord (wrath) and is the first to be judged.

trialbyfire · Dec 10, 2010

1whirlwind said:
No. Jesus, who is the only One you should listen to, for there are many wolves in sheeps clothing, many false teachers that appear so holy and righteous, and are misleading God's children today. There is NO RAPTURE, no flying away, no being gathered to Him until the end of Satan's tribulation. We will all be here and will experience his DECEPTION, and this rapture stuff is a huge part of the deception/tribulation.

11 Thessalonians 2:1,3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, (3) Let NO MAN DECEIVE YOU by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The delusion is that Satan comes first...pretending to be Christ, Christ coming to rapture them away. People are being misled into believing Christ comes before that time of the great tribulation but....what does Christ tell us?

Matthew 24:21-23 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ,' or 'there;' believe it not.

24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So, He has written the truth. We must accept it or the word of man (and woman) that tells us we'll be flown away while the rest of the world is in complete turmoil. And, it is important to know this truth for He warned....."And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; That they all might be damned who believed not the truth."

.

God shows the church in heaven prior to wrath (Day of the Lord), when the devil is kicked down, before the antichrist arises and blasphemes we who dwell in heaven while killing/imprisoning the remnant of the woman's seed.

The scriptures you posted are scriptural contortionism. You left out the verse 2 of 2 Thess 2 which says exactly what "it" is that shall not be unless the departure comes first. Same with Jesus' words in Matt 24. Jesus describes exactly when the antichrist and his false miracles arise and you just skipped right over it. You should take your own advice, there whirlwind.
The strong delusion is not our blessed hope, the coming of our salvation. The strong delusion is the false miracles the antichrist does in an attempt to prove his lie that he is god.

Jesus told us when the tribulation began, when it ends and what happens after it (wrath - Day of the Lord, rise of the antichrist). Joel 2 and Revelation 6 confirm it.

trialbyfire · Dec 10, 2010

SwordoftheLord said:
Ok so because of computers and history we have@a better understanding than the early church fathers. That is nuts. The pretrib, or rapture theory didn't come about until john nelson darby met with a catholic schoolgirl who had a vision of this rapture. And christians ever since have been perverting and twisting scripture to try and prove it.

Daniel admitted in Daniel 12 that he did not understand the explanation of the visions that he saw. Historically, we know what much of Daniel 11 was referring to. Prophecies, you know, are history that hasn't happened yet.

Acts 1 shows the disciples asking Jesus right before He ascended if he was going to now restore the Kingdom to Israel. They didn't understand from Scripture (prophets) that Israel would be abandoned for 2000 years. But we understand it now.

There are many such examples. Unless a person has all of the Law, Prophets and Psalms in hand and the ability to read and study them daily (as we do) there could be much that is missed.

So, no, the early church fathers did not have the benefit of an historical perspective, a computer, or even a hand-held Bible that they could study daily.

So by your post your telling me that POLYCARP who was a student of JOHN(who wrote the book of revelation) was wrong because he didn't believe in your rapture theory? Or iraneus, or ignatius are wrong because they didn't believe it yet they lived around 100-300 a.

I don't know Polycarp. I know Scripture. The removal of the church prior to the Day of the Lord is not a theory. It was written in both the Old and New Testaments and Paul certainly understood it as did Peter. John was shown in Revelation when it would take place if he didn't understand it before (which I doubt - I'm certain that he did understand when it would take place but he might've been expecting the Day of the Lord to come sooner than 2000 years).

trialbyfire · Dec 10, 2010

Chris81 said:
Thank you that was an excellent response. Yes the idea that we are somehow more enlightened and can reason the 'true' meaning of scriptures better than the early church fathers is preposterous. The early Christians who lived during or near the time of the writing of the New Testament scriptures understood the original intent of scripture which should always be the basis for our interpretation.

In the last 2000 years we have not gained a better understanding of scriptures, instead it seems that many instead have sought to manipulate scripture from its true original intent in order to rationalize their own modern theological leanings.

"Modern theological leanings"?

Isaiah is not modern:

19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Psalms is not modern:

Psalm 50

1The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
2Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. 5Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

Psalm 75

1Unto thee, O God, do we give thanks, unto thee do we give thanks: for that thy name is near thy wondrous works declare.
2When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly. 3The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

Jesus is not modern:

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jhn 11:25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
Jhn 11:26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Jhn 14:2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

And of course, Paul is not modern. Revelation is not modern.

I do not follow the teachings of men. I follow Scripture. Scripture says there is a resurrection and departure of God's people to heaven before the Day of the Lord begins. I believe it.

trialbyfire · Dec 10, 2010

JesusServant said:
Unless Paul lied we'll be here for the revealing of the antichrist...

2nd Thessalonians 2:2-3 -

that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

Okay, to use your words, you obviously don't know your Bible, not just people who disagree with the view you've been taught and accepted.

And the rapture is easy to disprove with the words of Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. Both places Jesus says AFTER the tribulation of those days the elect will be gathered. To get around this fact, the sellers (and yes, they're making some loot on this fiction) of the pre-tribulation rapture theorists have to come up with at least two raptures.

Stop underestimating our Lord. He is able to preserve us in the fires to come. Did He not protect Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego in the furnace? Did He HIMSELF not protect them? And if you are one of the ones to be killed with the sword, is absence from the body not to be present with the Lord?

Stop setting people up to be disappointed when they're still here. Now, without the Holy Spirit we won't persevere (10 virgins parable), but with and through Him we will be able to take on whatever the Lord puts in our path.

God bless and stop perpetuating false teaching please
-JS

2 Thess 2 does not say apostasy (departure from the faith). It says the Greek word apostasia which means departure. Paul said who is departing in the very first line of that passage. He said it 1 Thess 4 & 5 as well. He said the church is gathered prior to the Day of the Lord because the church is not appointed unto wrath.

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

Secondly, I agree that the church endures the tribulation. Every single believer in Christ has endured the tribulation. It is the wrath (which includes the antichrist) that the church is not apppointed to suffer. Jesus said the tribulation began with the desolation of Israel and will be cut short just before the sun and moon darkening of the 6th seal, followed by the rise of false christs and false prophets and false miracles in Matt 24.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) DANIEL 11:31-35
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

trialbyfire · Dec 10, 2010

visionary said:
Of course, the anti-christ will encounter the church, after all that is what is the ultimate test for a believer..even the elect will have a hard time if the Lord hadn't cut it to just a short time.

The elect is the remnant of Israel who are sealed by God on earth before the Day of the Lord begins (rev 7). Revelation 9 shows that they are around while the antichrist is doing his false magic tricks and making war.

Jesus said that the tribulation that began with the desolation of Israel has to be cut short for the sake of the elect of Israel, described in Rev 7. God has foreordained that a remnant of Israel will survive and He is going to protect them.

The reason the great tribulation is cut short, immediately followed by the 6th seal (earthquake, sun and moon darkening, stars falling) is because of the massive Northern army invasion that God steps in and saves Israel from. Joel 2 shows that army invading at that time.

The church is dwelling in heaven when the devil is cast down saying "woe to the earth for the devil come down to you" before the antichrist takes power. The antichrist goes after the remnant of the woman's seed (not the church) and blasphemes those who dwell in heaven, the church.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Chris81 · Dec 10, 2010

trialbyfire said:
"Modern theological leanings"?

........................................................................................
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And of course, Paul is not modern. Revelation is not modern.

I do not follow the teachings of men. I follow Scripture. Scripture says there is a resurrection and departure of God's people to heaven before the Day of the Lord begins. I believe it.

Well of course I am not saying that the scripture itself is modern, instead it is quite clear to many of us reading your posts that your interpretation of those scriptures is clearly derived from the 19th century dispensational theological tradition.

You can claim all you want that you only derive your understanding of scripture from a pure reading of the Bible but I have read plenty of material from others in this forum and throughout Christian community to see the influences of modern Pretrib apologetic arguments within your Posts.

You may be able to convince some with your claims of being guided purely through the Holy Spirit in your understanding of the Bible but I am not convinced.

SeraphimsCherub · Dec 10, 2010

"No. Jesus, who is the only One you should listen to, for there are many wolves in sheeps clothing, many false teachers that appear so holy and righteous, and are misleading God's children today. There is NO RAPTURE, no flying away, no being gathered to Him until the end of Satan's tribulation. We will all be here and will experience his DECEPTION, and this rapture stuff is a huge part of the deception/tribulation."

What do you think of this "little" vision Isaiah saw:Isaiah 60:8 (KJV) Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
Such a hidden pearl that...i'm guessing not to many people in the past 2000 years even noticed!

visionary · Dec 10, 2010

Yeshua prayed that his followers would not be taken out of this world, but given strength to go through the tribulation.. John 17:15

miamited · Dec 10, 2010

Hi TBF,

So, let me get this straight. In 2 Thess. 2:3
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

The original greek that you have says nothing about man of lawlessness or mentions any person. It says nothing about anyone doomed to destruction or some other greek phrase or word that would translate to that?

You also wrote:
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Think over that passage. Do you not see that Paul said that Christ removes the church before the Day of the Lord (wrath) begins?

Oh yes, you'll get no argument from me that the church will not endure the wrath of the Day of the Lord, but, and this is a very big but, the Day of the Lord is not the days of the tribulation of the Antichrist. I agree wholeheartedly 100% without any equivocation that believers will never suffer under God's wrath. Paul makes this abundantly clear.

Here's a quick timeline for you, as I understand the Scriptures. The world is going to move further and further away from God. There is coming an apostasy like we can't even imagine today. We think taking prayer out of school is the beginning of the end? No, we, none of us, can probably imagine the apostasy that is coming. The RCC is moving steadily in that direction and many other fellowships of many other denominations are also moving steadily in that direction. The issue of evolution has separated the 'church' and could well be the delusion spoken of regarding the end times. Nevertheless, issues such as abortion, sexual immorality, evolution and accepting all religions as a valid way to God are pulling and splitting the 'church'. With many, who call themselves believers, claiming that all religions lead to God, that science has 'proven' evolution and so it must, therefore, be true, that we should be open and accepting of all sexual perversions, after all who are we to judge. The 'church' and the people of the world who claim in themselves to identify with the Lord are moving steadily towards a great apostasy. It will come!

At some point the people of the world are going to lift someone up to run a worldwide type of government. Even today, because of monetary issues, people are looking for some sort of worldwide, even across the board system that will put all nations on an even par politically and financially. Oil has always, since we first began to need it in this country, been denominated across the globe in dollars. Today many nations are not happy with that. They think it unfair that our currency seems to be more valuable than theirs. Look what has happened in Europe. Some dozen countries have thrown out their currencies by which they trades with for several centuries and agreed to use the euro. However, today that is also proving problematic. If Ireland still had it's own currency it wouldn't have to go begging to the powers that control the euro for financial help. Just like the US they could have made their own public policy and used their currency as they see fit. There was even a write up just two days ago about the ex-chancellor of Germany who had been one of the big guns pushing the euro who now says it may have been a mistake.

So, world financial and political issues are going to get to the point that we're all going to want some one person or group, such as the UN, to be the 'top' of the government for the whole world. The Scriptures declare that there will come a time that some one is going to set foot on that stage that the whole world follows after.
That person is probably going to be irreligious and work out some sort of peace agreement with the Arabs and Israel and many of the other warring nations of the world. Hence the whole world we be crying peace, peace when there is no peace.

This apostate 'church' and irreligious government will join together and just as prayer has left our schools, the name of Jesus as the only way of salvation will be spurned. The leader that so many followed after is going to turn in wickedness and break his peace covenant with Israel and there will be a great tribulation against those who follow the commands of God. We will be here for that great time of tribulation brought on by the hands of the Antichrist, but when it seems hopeless, God is going to shorten those days and send His Son to receive all those who have trusted in him and we will all be raised in the clouds to remain with him forever and God is going to loose His very great wrath upon the remainder left on the world.

It is this time of God's wrath that believers will not fall under.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

trialbyfire · Dec 10, 2010

Chris81 said:
Well of course I am not saying that the scripture itself is modern, instead it is quite clear to many of us reading your posts that your interpretation of those scriptures is clearly derived from the 19th century dispensational theological tradition.

Except that I've never read any "19th century dispensational theological tradition" works. I've read the Bible.

You can claim all you want that you only derive your understanding of scripture from a pure reading of the Bible but I have read plenty of material from others in this forum and throughout Christian community to see the influences of modern Pretrib apologetic arguments within your Posts.

What an odd thing to say. Why would I care what other people think about what type of arguments are in my posts? I quote scripture. I underline the pertinent parts.

You may be able to convince some with your claims of being guided purely through the Holy Spirit in your understanding of the Bible but I am not convinced.

Nothing I've said contradicts God's Word but in fact, I repeatedly quote it.

Everything written in Scripture has at least one other, if not more, confirming passages.

I really don't care if you think I'm lying about the Holy Spirit's influence over me and in me. I know the Truth and so does God.

Who still believes the church is around for the antichrist?

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