Words of the Prophet

Ran77

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With all of the testimony about how the LDS prophets are false and the leadership teach false doctrine, I thought we can just go ahead and look at what is being taught and our critics can point out the flaws with their teachings. In a series of threads: I will post bits of the latest conferrence talks and we can see how unbibilical we are.


This is from Monson's talk: He Is Risen

Who could persuasively argue that man—the noblest work of the Great Designer, with dominion over all living things, with a brain and a will, with a mind and a soul, with intelligence and divinity—should come to an end when the spirit forsakes its earthly temple?

To understand the meaning of death, we must appreciate the purpose of life. The dim light of belief must yield to the noonday sun of revelation, by which we know that we lived before our birth into mortality. In our premortal state, we were doubtless among the sons and daughters of God who shouted for joy because of the opportunity to come to this challenging yet necessary mortal existence.5 We knew that our purpose was to gain a physical body, to overcome trials, and to prove that we would keep the commandments of God. Our Father knew that because of the nature of mortality, we would be tempted, would sin, and would fall short. So that we might have every chance of success, He provided a Savior, who would suffer and die for us. Not only would He atone for our sins, but as a part of that Atonement, He would also overcome the physical death to which we would be subject because of the Fall of Adam.

Thus, more than 2,000 years ago, Christ, our Savior, was born to mortal life in a stable in Bethlehem. The long-foretold Messiah had come.

There was very little written of the boyhood of Jesus. I love the passage from Luke: “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.”6 And from the book of Acts, there is a short phrase concerning the Savior which has a world of meaning: “[He] went about doing good.”7

He was baptized by John in the river Jordan. He called the Twelve Apostles. He blessed the sick. He caused the lame to walk, the blind to see, the deaf to hear. He even raised the dead to life. He taught, He testified, and He provided a perfect example for us to follow.

And then the mortal mission of the Savior of the world drew to its close. A last supper with His Apostles took place in an upper room. Ahead lay Gethsemane and Calvary’s cross.

No mere mortal can conceive the full import of what Christ did for us in Gethsemane. He Himself later described the experience: “[The] suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit.”8

Following the agony of Gethsemane, now drained of strength, He was seized by rough, crude hands and taken before Annas, Caiaphas, Pilate, and Herod. He was accused and cursed. Vicious blows further weakened His pain-racked body. Blood ran down His face as a cruel crown fashioned of sharp thorns was forced onto His head, piercing His brow. And then once again He was taken to Pilate, who gave in to the cries of the angry mob: “Crucify him, crucify him.”9

He was scourged with a whip into whose multiple leather strands sharp metals and bones were woven. Rising from the cruelty of the scourge, with stumbling steps He carried His own cross until He could go no farther and another shouldered the burden for Him.

Finally, on a hill called Calvary, while helpless followers looked on, His wounded body was nailed to a cross. Mercilessly He was mocked and cursed and derided. And yet He cried out, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”10

The agonizing hours passed as His life ebbed. From His parched lips came the words, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”11

As the serenity and solace of a merciful death freed Him from the sorrows of mortality, He returned to the presence of His Father.

At the last moment, the Master could have turned back. But He did not. He passed beneath all things that He might save all things. His lifeless body was hurriedly but gently placed in a borrowed tomb.

No words in Christendom mean more to me than those spoken by the angel to the weeping Mary Magdalene and the other Mary when, on the first day of the week, they approached the tomb to care for the body of their Lord. Spoke the angel:

“Why seek ye the living among the dead?

“He is not here, but is risen.”




:)
 

ZealouS

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Christ paid for our sins on the cross, not in Gethsemane. That is the reason why great importance is placed on the cross throughout the NT, while Gethsemane is not mentioned outside of the Gospels.

Ephesians 2:14-18
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. (NIV, emphasis mine)

Colossians 1:19-20
19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (NIV, emphasis mine)
 
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Ran77

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Christ paid for our sins on the cross, not in Gethsemane. That is the reason why great importance is placed on the cross throughout the NT, while Gethsemane is not mentioned outside of the Gospels.

Ephesians 2:14-18
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. (NIV, emphasis mine)

Colossians 1:19-20
19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (NIV, emphasis mine)


Where does the talk indicate this?


:)
 
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drstevej

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Obiwan

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Christ paid for our sins on the cross, not in Gethsemane. That is the reason why great importance is placed on the cross throughout the NT, while Gethsemane is not mentioned outside of the Gospels.

Ephesians 2:14-18
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. (NIV, emphasis mine)

Colossians 1:19-20
19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (NIV, emphasis mine)

You should read your Bible a little more carefully instead of just believing what your religion tells you. Also, you should know that through a quick Google search, many Christian religions believe Christ suffered for our sins in Gethsemene and then it was finished on the Cross.

LDS know very well that the Atonement was completed on the Cross, but the actual "suffering for our sins" part occured in the Garden. He "died" for our sins on the Cross.

Matthew 26:
39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and aprayed, saying, O my bFather, if it be possible, let this ccup pass from me: nevertheless not as I dwill, but as ethou fwilt.

Luke 22:
41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, aremove this cup from me: nevertheless not my bwill, but thine, be done.

43 And there appeared an aangel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

44 And being in an aagony he prayed more earnestly: band his sweat was as it were great drops of cblood falling down to the ground.

Pay special attention to verses 42 & 44 above...... This is clearly where Christ "suffered for our sins" with his blood. You should also know Gethsemenee means "oil press", which is where the pressed Olives. So what better place to demonstrate the shedding of His Blood for our sins???



Also, you should know that NIV is one of the worst "translations" you can use on several key scriptures. Is because just like above, Evangelicals have changed the verse in order to reflect their theology, rather than what the scripture actually states. You need to look at the KJV as well as other translations.

Colossians 1 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

Look at the original Greek..... It should be saying "of his cross".....

Colossians 1 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

Thus, you should also know that in almost ALL cases the word "cross" in the scriptures is referring to Christ's "Atonement", "burden", his "mission" etc., not THE actual Cross he died on, save a few clear instances of course. Though, yes after his death they did make the word "cross" as a substitute for those other meanings taking poetic license, cause after all, it's the Atonement, his suffering, or his burden that is being talked about, not the actual cross.

The above is a clear example of how Evangelicals have changed the scriptures in order to more fully reflect their doctrine rather than what the actual Greek and Hebrew states. Again, NIV is one of the worst you can use because of this.

KJV is really the best, while it isn't perfect, on KEY Doctrinal points, it's almost always correct.
 
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William777

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To understand the meaning of death, we must appreciate the purpose of life. The dim light of belief must yield to the noonday sun of revelation, by which we know that we lived before our birth into mortality. In our premortal state, we were doubtless among the sons and daughters of God who shouted for joy because of the opportunity to come to this challenging yet necessary mortal existence.5 We knew that our purpose was to gain a physical body, to overcome trials, and to prove that we would keep the commandments of God.

A few thoughts...

Why would doubtless sons and daughters of God choose to enter into sin? Would this not argue against their claims as children of The Most High?

1 John 3: 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

But here is a serious fault in this doctrine. They have fellowship with God and then they choose to depart from that fellowship? The whole purpose of Christ birth, death, and resurrection was to restore the fellowship lost in the garden of eden. For we find that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. You cannot abound in sin and have fellowship so they would cut fellowship to enter into sin and what for? The wages of sin is death and David declared in sin was I conceived. So they would choose a carnal mind which now puts them at enmity against God and are no longer subject to God's law? (Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.) Notice that this is not a form of enmity, but the extreme object of hatred God sees in his creation, it is not at enmity but enmity itself. And the idea that a creature with the full knowledge of this would choose such an action seems both idle and wicked. And God who desires truth in the inward parts would he not reward such a creature according to his folly? For you reap what you sow, in the flesh to death or in the spirit to life. (Gal 6:7-9)

But if they indeed had fellowship before they were born, would fellowship with God not thirst for greater fellowship? Moses on the top of mt Sini said to God, "Show me your glory." What then did God say? "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

Yet God hid him in the cleft of the rock and allowed His glory to pass him and put His hand over him that he could see God's goodness. Currently God is withholding the full weight of His glory from sinful mankind that if it were not withheld we would be destroyed immediately. Yet His spirit will not always strive with mankind and just as a lamb was used to cover Adam and Eve if our sin is not covered by the blood of the Lamb of God we will be destroyed. Thus the first B attitude my Lord ever gave, "Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God." Christ came to purifty our hearts from sin. God desires fellowship but sin is no arbitrary concept it is the transgression of the law. The law is what God ordained and established that expresses His expectations of His creation which requires complete purity to perform.

How is that? God weighs the heart so even the thought of lust or covetousness or greed or anger is enough to sentence the judgement of a Holy and Righteous God. The law requires death for a single infraction and without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. This presents a problem for people whose hearts from birth are deceitful above all else and desperately wicked beyond understanding.

No one can keep the law save the one which is truly born of God (Christ). So here presents another problem, that a premortal being would think he could keep the law then depart from the fellowship of God to fail miserably in his attempt to keep the law and thus alienate himself from God. But if the premortal being truly were a child of God he would not break the law so then no one would qualify under this doctrine save Christ. However, Christ said, "before Abraham was, I AM".

My observations...
 
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ZealouS

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You should read your Bible a little more carefully instead of just believing what your religion tells you. Also, you should know that through a quick Google search, many Christian religions believe Christ suffered for our sins in Gethsemene and then it was finished on the Cross.

LDS know very well that the Atonement was completed on the Cross, but the actual "suffering for our sins" part occured in the Garden. He "died" for our sins on the Cross.

Matthew 26:
39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and aprayed, saying, O my bFather, if it be possible, let this ccup pass from me: nevertheless not as I dwill, but as ethou fwilt.

Luke 22:
41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, aremove this cup from me: nevertheless not my bwill, but thine, be done.

43 And there appeared an aangel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

44 And being in an aagony he prayed more earnestly: band his sweat was as it were great drops of cblood falling down to the ground.

Pay special attention to verses 42 & 44 above...... This is clearly where Christ "suffered for our sins" with his blood. You should also know Gethsemenee means "oil press", which is where the pressed Olives. So what better place to demonstrate the shedding of His Blood for our sins???
No, the Bible verses I provided prove that atonement for sin was made on the Cross. Not only that, the whole OT sacrifice system proves the same. Apparently, I'm not the only person who should read my Bible more carefully.


Also, you should know that NIV is one of the worst "translations" you can use on several key scriptures. Is because just like above, Evangelicals have changed the verse in order to reflect their theology, rather than what the scripture actually states. You need to look at the KJV as well as other translations.

Colossians 1 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

Look at the original Greek..... It should be saying "of his cross".....

Colossians 1 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

Thus, you should also know that in almost ALL cases the word "cross" in the scriptures is referring to Christ's "Atonement", "burden", his "mission" etc., not THE actual Cross he died on, save a few clear instances of course. Though, yes after his death they did make the word "cross" as a substitute for those other meanings taking poetic license, cause after all, it's the Atonement, his suffering, or his burden that is being talked about, not the actual cross.

The above is a clear example of how Evangelicals have changed the scriptures in order to more fully reflect their doctrine rather than what the actual Greek and Hebrew states. Again, NIV is one of the worst you can use because of this.

KJV is really the best, while it isn't perfect, on KEY Doctrinal points, it's almost always correct.
Actually, the NIV is one of the better English translations. Mormons, no doubt, prefer the KJV because it allows the Bible to appear a lot more obscure on subjects such as this, and thus be more easily manipulated.

Also, I fail to see how the wording "of his cross" changes to meaning of scripture and that's probably because it doesn't. Christ died on the cross, and it was through his death that we were reconciled to God. The Lamb has to be slaughtered in order for our sins to be forgiven, not feel anxiety about being slaughtered. Apparently, you need to obtain a better understanding the OT and how it was fulfilled in the NT.

Just for kicks, here is the Greek word for "cross" that is found in Col. 1:20

G4716
σταυρός
stauros
stow-ros'
From the base of G2476; a stake or post (as set upright), that is, (specifically) a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively exposure to death, that is, self denial; by implication the atonement of Christ: - cross.

This word implies the atonement of Christ because the atonement of Christ was made on the cross. Here is further Biblical support for this conclusion:

Romans 5:10-11
10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. (NIV, emphasis mine)

Where did Christ die? Not in Gethsemane, but on the cross. Christ had to die in order to reconcile us to God. You should stop relying on other men to tell you what the Bible says and start reading the Bible for yourself.
 
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Ran77

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A few thoughts...

Why would doubtless sons and daughters of God choose to enter into sin? Would this not argue against their claims as children of The Most High?

1 John 3: 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

The first statement you are addressing involves the premortal existence. They chose to enter into mortality to gain physical bodies.

However, the verse you quoted refers to those who are adopted into the family of God. This is something completely different. But even here, people who have come to God in faith still chose to enter into sin - so I have to ask you why this isn't a problem for your belief system?


But here is a serious fault in this doctrine. They have fellowship with God and then they choose to depart from that fellowship? The whole purpose of Christ birth, death, and resurrection was to restore the fellowship lost in the garden of eden.

Under your doctrine that is most likely correct. LDS believe that coming to Earth and gaining physical bodies is important, and the purpose of Christ's birth, death, and resurrection was to A) break the bonds of death whereby all men might be resurrected, and B) to pave the way for man to return to live with God in Heaven - not the Garden of Eden.


For we find that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. You cannot abound in sin and have fellowship so they would cut fellowship to enter into sin and what for?

To take the next step in their development - which is gaining a physical body.


The wages of sin is death and David declared in sin was I conceived. So they would choose a carnal mind which now puts them at enmity against God and are no longer subject to God's law? (Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.) Notice that this is not a form of enmity, but the extreme object of hatred God sees in his creation, it is not at enmity but enmity itself. And the idea that a creature with the full knowledge of this would choose such an action seems both idle and wicked. And God who desires truth in the inward parts would he not reward such a creature according to his folly? For you reap what you sow, in the flesh to death or in the spirit to life. (Gal 6:7-9)

What they chose is to come to Earth and not only gain a physical body but to learn from the experiences here. Those who come to Earth have already passed their first estate which was to stand by God when the plan of savlation was presented. They knew goodness explicitly and chose it. But here on Earth, we are tested on a different level. Will we chose goodness when we don't have God standing there in front of us. This experience in life presents a much more meaningful test of our faith and loyalty to God. That's the purpose.


But if they indeed had fellowship before they were born, would fellowship with God not thirst for greater fellowship? Moses on the top of mt Sini said to God, "Show me your glory." What then did God say? "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

Yet God hid him in the cleft of the rock and allowed His glory to pass him and put His hand over him that he could see God's goodness. Currently God is withholding the full weight of His glory from sinful mankind that if it were not withheld we would be destroyed immediately. Yet His spirit will not always strive with mankind and just as a lamb was used to cover Adam and Eve if our sin is not covered by the blood of the Lamb of God we will be destroyed. Thus the first B attitude my Lord ever gave, "Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God." Christ came to purifty our hearts from sin. God desires fellowship but sin is no arbitrary concept it is the transgression of the law. The law is what God ordained and established that expresses His expectations of His creation which requires complete purity to perform.

That is answered above.

Thanks for your input.


:)
 
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Obiwan

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No, the Bible verses I provided prove that atonement for sin was made on the Cross. Not only that, the whole OT sacrifice system proves the same. Apparently, I'm not the only person who should read my Bible more carefully.

They do not..... First the Ephesians verse is referring to the Atonement, using the "word" cross as representation of that. The Colossians verse has clearly been manipulated by the Evangelical scholars who created the NIV to make it seem "clear" that the Atonement "only" occured on the cross.

Also, Christ's death on the cross was only "part" of the Atonement, not the only part. I just can't understand why you intentionally are ignoring the "rest" of the picture. Like I said, LDS aren't the only ones that believe this, about half does.

So, in the Old Testament sacrifising did they put an animal on a cross???
No they didn't..... That's why your argument in absurd.

1. When a scrifice was done the animals blood was shed.
2. The animal then slowly died.

Now, what happened in the Garden.....? Christ shed his blood in agony.
What happened then? He was then judged and put to death.

Let me ask you something..... Why don't you tell us what he was doing then to be in so much agony, that he said to "take this cup from me" even using "Abba" to his Father, and then to sweat blood, and not just sweat blood, but "great drops" of blood???

I don't see any symbolism like that when he was on the Cross.....
The Garden is clearly where he "suffered" for the sins of the world, and the Cross is where he "died" for the sins of the world. Are you really so ingrained in your dogma that you can't see beyond what you have been told??? At least, if you don't want to believe me, then study our best scholarship on the issue.

See guy, we are Christ's "Restored" Church on the earth. You simply aren't going to see and understand anything unless you step outside your box and start thinking that there is much more to Christ's Truths and mormonism than you think.

Actually, the NIV is one of the better English translations. Mormons, no doubt, prefer the KJV because it allows the Bible to appear a lot more obscure on subjects such as this, and thus be more easily manipulated.

I already know that the NIV is one of the "better" translations over all, but it's not in MANY key respects, and it's not just mormons who think this. Plenty of Christians out there have serious problems with the NIV and/or prefer the KJV.

"A lot more obscure"??? The Colossians verse is a complete fabrication, not even consistent with the Greek, and not even consistent with almost all other translations. So spare me the "manipulation" lecture.... Your people are the ones who have manipulated. And by the way, you are simply making a wild negative assumption. On most issues the NIV is completely consistent with standard doctrines, the NIV changes nothing. However, like this verse, there are a few BAD ones, and it's your Evangelical buddy's who created the NIV that have manipulated the scriptures. I've studied this issue, and I know what I'm talking about, and I studied it from NON-LDS sources.... Like the Colossians verse, they have severely changed some verses which ARE NOT consistent with the original Greek or Hebrew. So, don't just "assume" vagary when that's not the issue at all, because the NIV changes nothing for most scriptures, LDS understanding is still well within it. LDS doctrines are not based on "vague" scriptures. And the ones that have some evidence in the Bible, are still vague no matter the translation because there is little on the subject in the Bible. But, like I've said many times, the LDS Church is in the Bible, and it's the only one that is fully and accurately so, and I knew that before ever knowing the LDS Church existed.

Also, I fail to see how the wording "of his cross" changes to meaning of scripture and that's probably because it doesn't. Christ died on the cross, and it was through his death that we were reconciled to God. The Lamb has to be slaughtered in order for our sins to be forgiven, not feel anxiety about being slaughtered. Apparently, you need to obtain a better understanding the OT and how it was fulfilled in the NT.

The Colossians verse changes things around and adds the words "sheds his blood on the cross" or whatever. It's a completely different translation that exists in almost no other translation, and is completely different from the Greek.

As I've already explained above, the Atonement is accomplished by Christ's suffereing and dying for our sins, and that occured in two different places. Not that there wasn't "some" suffering on the cross and the road to it, but if you actually read the scriptures I reference and others, the bulk of the suffering for the sins occured in the Garden. And if you recall Old Testament sacrifices, they killed the animal by shedding his blood, not by simply stabbing the animal to death.

And I never said anything about "feeling anxiety about the slaughter". You are grossly ignoring what the scriptures are saying and what Christ went through. Bottom line is, no matter how you try to "rationalize" it, the Atonement began in the Garden with Christ's suffering, and ended on the cross. Actually, technically it ended at the Resurrection, but the suffering and dying for our sins occured from the Garden to the cross.

And by the way, do you really think he went through all that just because he was "scared"??? What a doppy statement. :doh:

Just for kicks, here is the Greek word for "cross" that is found in Col. 1:20

G4716
σταυρός
stauros
stow-ros'
From the base of G2476; a stake or post (as set upright), that is, (specifically) a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively exposure to death, that is, self denial; by implication the atonement of Christ: - cross.

Dude.... I linked you those references..... I know.

This word implies the atonement of Christ because the atonement of Christ was made on the cross. Here is further Biblical support for this conclusion:

Yes, I know..... That is how the English language got the dual meaning also. "Cross" as a trial or burden. Or "Cross" as a stick causing torture and death.

Romans 5:10-11
10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. (NIV, emphasis mine)

So.... I know this. But why don't you read Verse 9....???

Romans 5:
9 Much more then, being now ajustified by his bblood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Where did Christ die? Not in Gethsemane, but on the cross. Christ had to die in order to reconcile us to God. You should stop relying on other men to tell you what the Bible says and start reading the Bible for yourself.

It is by BLOOD AND DEATH the Atonement is accomplished, by Blood we are Justified and by Death we are Reconciled, not simply by Death.

Actually, you need to stop relying on other men and read the scriptures yourself. And again..... I read the Bible for myself long before I knew of mormonism, and had plenty of religions to compare it too, having not judgements or biases of my own. So, don't tell me who "I" listen too, my experience FAR outways yours.....
 
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With all of the testimony about how the LDS prophets are false and the leadership teach false doctrine, I thought we can just go ahead and look at what is being taught and our critics can point out the flaws with their teachings. In a series of threads: I will post bits of the latest conferrence talks and we can see how unbibilical we are.


This is from Monson's talk: He Is Risen

Who could persuasively argue that man—the noblest work of the Great Designer, with dominion over all living things, with a brain and a will, with a mind and a soul, with intelligence and divinity—should come to an end when the spirit forsakes its earthly temple?

To understand the meaning of death, we must appreciate the purpose of life. The dim light of belief must yield to the noonday sun of revelation, by which we know that we lived before our birth into mortality. In our premortal state, we were doubtless among the sons and daughters of God who shouted for joy because of the opportunity to come to this challenging yet necessary mortal existence.5 We knew that our purpose was to gain a physical body, to overcome trials, and to prove that we would keep the commandments of God. Our Father knew that because of the nature of mortality, we would be tempted, would sin, and would fall short. So that we might have every chance of success, He provided a Savior, who would suffer and die for us. Not only would He atone for our sins, but as a part of that Atonement, He would also overcome the physical death to which we would be subject because of the Fall of Adam.

Thus, more than 2,000 years ago, Christ, our Savior, was born to mortal life in a stable in Bethlehem. The long-foretold Messiah had come.

There was very little written of the boyhood of Jesus. I love the passage from Luke: “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.”6 And from the book of Acts, there is a short phrase concerning the Savior which has a world of meaning: “[He] went about doing good.”7

He was baptized by John in the river Jordan. He called the Twelve Apostles. He blessed the sick. He caused the lame to walk, the blind to see, the deaf to hear. He even raised the dead to life. He taught, He testified, and He provided a perfect example for us to follow.

And then the mortal mission of the Savior of the world drew to its close. A last supper with His Apostles took place in an upper room. Ahead lay Gethsemane and Calvary’s cross.

No mere mortal can conceive the full import of what Christ did for us in Gethsemane. He Himself later described the experience: “[The] suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit.”8

Following the agony of Gethsemane, now drained of strength, He was seized by rough, crude hands and taken before Annas, Caiaphas, Pilate, and Herod. He was accused and cursed. Vicious blows further weakened His pain-racked body. Blood ran down His face as a cruel crown fashioned of sharp thorns was forced onto His head, piercing His brow. And then once again He was taken to Pilate, who gave in to the cries of the angry mob: “Crucify him, crucify him.”9

He was scourged with a whip into whose multiple leather strands sharp metals and bones were woven. Rising from the cruelty of the scourge, with stumbling steps He carried His own cross until He could go no farther and another shouldered the burden for Him.

Finally, on a hill called Calvary, while helpless followers looked on, His wounded body was nailed to a cross. Mercilessly He was mocked and cursed and derided. And yet He cried out, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”10

The agonizing hours passed as His life ebbed. From His parched lips came the words, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”11

As the serenity and solace of a merciful death freed Him from the sorrows of mortality, He returned to the presence of His Father.

At the last moment, the Master could have turned back. But He did not. He passed beneath all things that He might save all things. His lifeless body was hurriedly but gently placed in a borrowed tomb.

No words in Christendom mean more to me than those spoken by the angel to the weeping Mary Magdalene and the other Mary when, on the first day of the week, they approached the tomb to care for the body of their Lord. Spoke the angel:

“Why seek ye the living among the dead?

“He is not here, but is risen.”




:)

Wow. After reading that, I've just realised that this is the first time that I truly appreciate what Christ did for me.
 
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drstevej

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Feel free to read the talk and respond to what the speaker had to say about it and how you believe it is incorrect. That is the topic of this thread.


:thumbsup:

Speaker:
No mere mortal can conceive the full import of what Christ did for us in Gethsemane.

drstevej:
So zackly what did He do for us in Gethsemane?


=======
I am on topic. His statement is sentiment without substance. Gethsemane is not the place where atonement was made.
 
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Ran77

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Speaker:
No mere mortal can conceive the full import of what Christ did for us in Gethsemane.

drstevej:
So zackly what did He do for us in Gethsemane?


=======
I am on topic. His statement is sentiment without substance. Gethsemane is not the place where atonement was made.


What did the article say about it? And if that is problematic, tell us what you think Jesus did for us in Gethsemane.


:)
 
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drstevej

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Gethsemane is not the place where atonement was made for us.

He Himself later described the experience: “[The] suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit.”8

This is LDS addition. It is not the blood of His pores in Gethsemane but His blood shed at Calvary that is redemptive. This is misleading at best.
 
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Ran77

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Gethsemane is not the place where atonement was made for us.



This is LDS addition. It is not the blood of His pores in Gethsemane but His blood shed at Calvary that is redemptive. This is misleading at best.


The talk does not say that the atonement was made for us in Gethsemane. How about finding something wrong that he actually said.


:)
 
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drstevej

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“[The] suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit.”8

This adds to the Bible.
 
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ZealouS

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They do not..... First the Ephesians verse is referring to the Atonement, using the "word" cross as representation of that. The Colossians verse has clearly been manipulated by the Evangelical scholars who created the NIV to make it seem "clear" that the Atonement "only" occured on the cross.
Even if that were the case, the word cross would be used to represent the atonement because, like I said, it was on the cross that Christ's atoned for the sins of the world. That being the case, it is clear the verse has not been manipulated - it has been translated to reflect the actual meaning, which is that Christ paid for our sins with his blood that was shed on the cross.

Also, Christ's death on the cross was only "part" of the Atonement, not the only part. I just can't understand why you intentionally are ignoring the "rest" of the picture. Like I said, LDS aren't the only ones that believe this, about half does.
Well, why don't you show me the "big picture"? Where in the Bible is Gethsemane used to represent Christ's atonement?

So, in the Old Testament sacrifising did they put an animal on a cross???
No they didn't..... That's why your argument in absurd.

1. When a scrifice was done the animals blood was shed.
2. The animal then slowly died.
Did I say that the animal was put on the cross? No. What matters is that the animal was sacrificed in a way that it's blood was shed and life was taken. Christ's life was taken on the cross. Also, between the crown of thorns, the nails in his hands and feet, and the spear thrust into his side, I'd say plenty of blood was shed on the cross as well.

Now, what happened in the Garden.....? Christ shed his blood in agony.
What happened then? He was then judged and put to death.

Let me ask you something..... Why don't you tell us what he was doing then to be in so much agony, that he said to "take this cup from me" even using "Abba" to his Father, and then to sweat blood, and not just sweat blood, but "great drops" of blood???
Christ was feeling great anxiety over what laid before him - the Atonement.

Now you tell me, what was Christ doing on the cross that made him cry out - "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" He was paying the price for our sins, and because of our sins, he was separated from God.


I don't see any symbolism like that when he was on the Cross.....
The Garden is clearly where he "suffered" for the sins of the world, and the Cross is where he "died" for the sins of the world. Are you really so ingrained in your dogma that you can't see beyond what you have been told??? At least, if you don't want to believe me, then study our best scholarship on the issue.
I just know the Bible and what has been written. I will not waver on what has been written and follow the doctrines of men.

See guy, we are Christ's "Restored" Church on the earth. You simply aren't going to see and understand anything unless you step outside your box and start thinking that there is much more to Christ's Truths and mormonism than you think.
I don't know about not understanding anything, but there is always more to learn.


I already know that the NIV is one of the "better" translations over all, but it's not in MANY key respects, and it's not just mormons who think this. Plenty of Christians out there have serious problems with the NIV and/or prefer the KJV.

"A lot more obscure"??? The Colossians verse is a complete fabrication, not even consistent with the Greek, and not even consistent with almost all other translations. So spare me the "manipulation" lecture.... Your people are the ones who have manipulated. And by the way, you are simply making a wild negative assumption. On most issues the NIV is completely consistent with standard doctrines, the NIV changes nothing. However, like this verse, there are a few BAD ones, and it's your Evangelical buddy's who created the NIV that have manipulated the scriptures. I've studied this issue, and I know what I'm talking about, and I studied it from NON-LDS sources.... Like the Colossians verse, they have severely changed some verses which ARE NOT consistent with the original Greek or Hebrew. So, don't just "assume" vagary when that's not the issue at all, because the NIV changes nothing for most scriptures, LDS understanding is still well within it. LDS doctrines are not based on "vague" scriptures. And the ones that have some evidence in the Bible, are still vague no matter the translation because there is little on the subject in the Bible. But, like I've said many times, the LDS Church is in the Bible, and it's the only one that is fully and accurately so, and I knew that before ever knowing the LDS Church existed.
If you recall, I provided another verse that stated the same thing and there are still others that I did not provide that state the same thing? Am I to believe that they are all wrong? You see, that is what Mormonism demands of it's adherents - they must believe that verses in the Bible have been manipulated or mistranslated. Otherwise, Mormonism contradicts the Bible.

The Colossians verse changes things around and adds the words "sheds his blood on the cross" or whatever. It's a completely different translation that exists in almost no other translation, and is completely different from the Greek.
As I stated, the wording reflects the meaning. You have not disproved this.

As I've already explained above, the Atonement is accomplished by Christ's suffereing and dying for our sins, and that occured in two different places. Not that there wasn't "some" suffering on the cross and the road to it, but if you actually read the scriptures I reference and others, the bulk of the suffering for the sins occured in the Garden. And if you recall Old Testament sacrifices, they killed the animal by shedding his blood, not by simply stabbing the animal to death.
The atonement is accomplished by Christ dying for our sins. Again, read the OT. It will help you understand the NT.

And I never said anything about "feeling anxiety about the slaughter". You are grossly ignoring what the scriptures are saying and what Christ went through. Bottom line is, no matter how you try to "rationalize" it, the Atonement began in the Garden with Christ's suffering, and ended on the cross. Actually, technically it ended at the Resurrection, but the suffering and dying for our sins occured from the Garden to the cross.

And by the way, do you really think he went through all that just because he was "scared"??? What a doppy statement. :doh:
I haven't ignored anything. And I spoke of anxiety (stress) because it's an actual medical condition called Hematidrosis: Hematidrosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Dude.... I linked you those references..... I know.
But you didn't provide them in the thread.


Yes, I know..... That is how the English language got the dual meaning also. "Cross" as a trial or burden. Or "Cross" as a stick causing torture and death.
So why do you think that Christ atoned for our sins in Gethsemane?


So.... I know this. But why don't you read Verse 9....???

Romans 5:
9 Much more then, being now ajustified by his bblood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.



It is by BLOOD AND DEATH the Atonement is accomplished, by Blood we are Justified and by Death we are Reconciled, not simply by Death.
This takes us back to Colossians 1:20:

20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (KJV, for you)

Christ justified and reconciled us to God through the blood of His cross. Do you really think that Jesus shed no blood on the cross? What of the nails drive into his hands and feet? What of the spear thrust into his side? What of the crown of thorns on his head? Not only was Christ's blood shed on the cross, but it was there that he died, atoning for the sins of Mankind.


Actually, you need to stop relying on other men and read the scriptures yourself. And again..... I read the Bible for myself long before I knew of mormonism, and had plenty of religions to compare it too, having not judgements or biases of my own. So, don't tell me who "I" listen too, my experience FAR outways yours.....
I do not rely on other men to interpret the Bible for me. That is what you honestly do as a Mormon. Your experience lacks truth, which makes it meaningless.
 
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