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Words of the Prophet

Obiwan

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We are clearly just going to go around in circles here.....

It's really quite simple..... The Biblical scriptures make clear that BOTH Gethsemane and the Cross are connected in relation to the Atonement. I know you've been programed to believe otherwise, but that is what the scriptures state.

Sure, Christ bled some on the cross obviously, BUT HE DIDN'T BLEED GREAT DROPS OF BLOOD FROM EVERY POOR on the Cross, he did that in Gethsemane. So clearly that is where the "blood letting" occurred for our sins, where we become "justified". Then on the Cross His Death "reconciles" us..... It's just not that complicated.

Further, he used the "symbolism" of the Garden (oil press), and he used the symbolism of Removing The Cup...... Both of these ideas are directly related to Christ's taking our sins upon him.

Anyway, believe what you want..... :(
 
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mirrorrorrim

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Ha ha, you beat me to my next thread idea. I still might post one with the entire talk, especially since this one seems to have gone in a specific direction, one I don't particularly care for.

On that: why does it matter where Christ suffered for our sins, or whether it took three hours or half a day? I'm all for a good debate (okay, I'm not, but I'll participate in one), but only on something that I can see actually mattering to someone who's not a Western-thinking-influenced academic.

If Latter-day Saints were Jehovah's Witnesses and believe Christ died on a torture stake, and that the concept of the shape of the cross was a pagan incorporation possibly started by Constantine's mother, which developed into idol worship, then I could see it being relevent.

I don't personally know any Latter-day Saints that feel that way, though, and President Monson certainly wasn't trying to make that sort of point in his talk.
:)

Please, no one be offended. I may very well be ignorant, and you do have a good reason to be debating it. I'm sorry in advance if I've misunderstood you.

Something I really loved about this talk was how it took the Creation and used it to show evidence for the Resurrection. So often we hear that the Old Testament testifies of Christ, but often I don't think we see the specific examples, and how really everything testifies of Him, His Mission, and His Resurrection. It made me appreciate the Creation even more than I did before.
 
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William777

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The first statement you are addressing involves the premortal existence. They chose to enter into mortality to gain physical bodies.

However, the verse you quoted refers to those who are adopted into the family of God. This is something completely different. But even here, people who have come to God in faith still chose to enter into sin - so I have to ask you why this isn't a problem for your belief system?

The first problem is that a child of God will not continue to sin so any claim for a pre-mortal to be a child of God and then enter into sin makes his claim invalid. This is the same as light changing to darkness it doesn't happen, light is always light and cannot be anything but light. God is light in Him is no darkness so this now makes the claim that God changes occasionally because you are attaching His seed to a pre-mortal that changes from light to darkness.

The Bible makes no claim that a child of God will sin. Christianity teaches that man is born into sin by the actions of one man and men are redeemed by the actions of one man. Christ came to save his people from their sin (Matthew 1:21). Now after a man is washed by Christ, for Christ said, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me". That is the rebirth and the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit now he is a new creation. Will he sin again? Christ said, speaking to the apostles, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean." Yes, but when he passes through final judgement and the blood of Christ has taken the penalty for his sin, through his now proven faith, then that man and Christ will become one flesh(Eph 5). That man will never go back to sin because God's seed remains in him through Christ and he is now a Child of God, yet he is already called a child of God because of foreknowledge. "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." There is only one Son of God that is why Abraham was not before Christ, thus; "Before Abraham was, I AM."

Under your doctrine that is most likely correct. LDS believe that coming to Earth and gaining physical bodies is important, and the purpose of Christ's birth, death, and resurrection was to A) break the bonds of death whereby all men might be resurrected, and B) to pave the way for man to return to live with God in Heaven - not the Garden of Eden.

This is the other problem, why would they ever depart? Personally, I think it would be irrelevant where we spend eternity the Garden of Eden or Heaven, hell excluded :), as long as I am in the presence of God. There is nothing greater than the fellowship and worship with and of God, yet I speak of worship concerning spirit and truth. Beholding the glory of the Lord is better than any gift you can receive. What are rewards compared to the presence of the Almighty? The one who gave us the ability to thirst, to desire, to have, to love, to understand. Did not Paul say, to live is Christ and to die is gain? I ask again why would a creature having access to the presence of God choose a mortal existence and excommunication for a fleshly reward? Wouldn't such a creature would be no different than the sons of Belial in that matter? Was Satan not the one who desired apart from God and didn't that cause his fall?

What they chose is to come to Earth and not only gain a physical body but to learn from the experiences here. Those who come to Earth have already passed their first estate which was to stand by God when the plan of savlation was presented. They knew goodness explicitly and chose it. But here on Earth, we are tested on a different level. Will we chose goodness when we don't have God standing there in front of us. This experience in life presents a much more meaningful test of our faith and loyalty to God. That's the purpose.

I don't deny life is a test to reveal our quality, Deut 13:3 as well as many other scriptures give light to that. However, the only experience a pre-mortal would learn is that his new heart of flesh is deceitful above all else and desperately wicked beyond understanding. They would have no hope of God apart from His mercy to reveal Himself to them. Yet, have they not chosen poorly and forsaken the Lord to gain a carnal mind? What merit do they earn from this? I don't have to live a year in the trash to know it stinks or commit murder to know its wrong. Yet they are worse than murders by doing this for they know better and still decide to become lawbreakers. By choosing mortality are they not choosing death and revealing their true depravity? And for what purpose, the sake of experience? Or a body with its sensual desires and carnal thoughts which God hates? Furthermore they have now forsaken holy living and without holiness no man will see God. Forgive me but that still seems both idle and wicked. :(


That is answered above.

Thank you for your time :)

Thanks for your input.

No problem.

-W
 
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Ran77

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The first problem is that a child of God will not continue to sin so any claim for a pre-mortal to be a child of God and then enter into sin makes his claim invalid. This is the same as light changing to darkness it doesn't happen, light is always light and cannot be anything but light. God is light in Him is no darkness so this now makes the claim that God changes occasionally because you are attaching His seed to a pre-mortal that changes from light to darkness.

Do you have any scripture to back this up?

In non-LDS belief, God is our creator. That makes us children of God. The only difference between LDS and non-LDS doctrines in this matter is that we believe that we existed before this mortal life.

As creations (children) of God I have seen nothing that indicates that we would not sin. We made the decision to enter mortality, where we could be tempted, and where we could make the decision to follow God under adverse circumstances.

We have the light of God within us. It has not changed to darkness. We know right from wrong. You seem to be replacing our existence as enlightened beings and the ability to make choices with this analogy of light and dark. We are not physically light.

We are children. And as children, we have not fully developed. We are not fully grown. This earthly existence allows us to grow to adults.


The Bible makes no claim that a child of God will sin.

What does it say on the matter?


Christianity teaches that man is born into sin by the actions of one man and men are redeemed by the actions of one man. Christ came to save his people from their sin (Matthew 1:21).

Okay.


Now after a man is washed by Christ, for Christ said, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me". That is the rebirth and the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit now he is a new creation. Will he sin again?

Man is imperfect. Even after we are reborn we make mistakes. Fortunately, the atonement allows us to recover from those mistakes. This statement of yours here is faulty. It implies a level of perfection once we are reborn that doesn't exist in anyone except the Savior. Other than Christ, the only person that doesn't sin again is someone who has passed on.


Christ said, speaking to the apostles, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean." Yes, but when he passes through final judgement and the blood of Christ has taken the penalty for his sin, through his now proven faith, then that man and Christ will become one flesh(Eph 5). That man will never go back to sin because God's seed remains in him through Christ and he is now a Child of God, yet he is already called a child of God because of foreknowledge.

This backs up my previous statement. This speaks of a bath and thereafter a washing of the feet. A great cleansing that leaves us needing only lesser cleansings thereafter. If we no longer sinned, then these lesser cleansings would be unnecessary.


"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." There is only one Son of God that is why Abraham was not before Christ, thus; "Before Abraham was, I AM."

I'm not following you here. Christ is the only begotton Son of God in the flesh. And this is a different relationship than I previously described. We are children of God because He created us. That is not the same situation as Christ.


This is the other problem, why would they ever depart?

I already explained that. We have left so that we may continue to mature.


Personally, I think it would be irrelevant where we spend eternity the Garden of Eden or Heaven, hell excluded :), as long as I am in the presence of God.

That's your choice to believe that.


There is nothing greater than the fellowship and worship with and of God, yet I speak of worship concerning spirit and truth. Beholding the glory of the Lord is better than any gift you can receive.

Again, that is your choice to believe that.


What are rewards compared to the presence of the Almighty?

The opportunity to grow to become like the Almighty. The opportunity to follow His plan for our happiness. The ability to gain a physical body and all the joys that are associated with that. The joy of knowing that when our intimate knowledge of Him was taken away we still chose to be in His presence.


The one who gave us the ability to thirst, to desire, to have, to love, to understand. Did not Paul say, to live is Christ and to die is gain?

I don't know, did he?


I ask again why would a creature having access to the presence of God choose a mortal existence and excommunication for a fleshly reward?

I have answered that several times. No need to keep asking. Except, that this is not excommunication. That is a term you have applied to it because you reject the idea and want it to sound undesireable.


Wouldn't such a creature would be no different than the sons of Belial in that matter? Was Satan not the one who desired apart from God and didn't that cause his fall?

I'm unsure of what you are saying here. Satan's fall is due to his wanting to promote a different plan than the one Heavenly Father devised, so that he could bring glory to himself, rather than the Father. It dealt with the taking away of free will and the ability to make meaningful choices in this life.


I don't deny life is a test to reveal our quality, Deut 13:3 as well as many other scriptures give light to that. However, the only experience a pre-mortal would learn is that his new heart of flesh is deceitful above all else and desperately wicked beyond understanding.

You may choose to limit your vision of what can be learned in this life if you wish, but I know that there is a great deal more to be learned than what you have suggested. I have already learned more than what you have suggested.


They would have no hope of God apart from His mercy to reveal Himself to them. Yet, have they not chosen poorly and forsaken the Lord to gain a carnal mind?

This has already been answered. They have subjected them to a testing ground that will allow them to make a meaningful choice to accept God.


What merit do they earn from this?

Answered.


I don't have to live a year in the trash to know it stinks or commit murder to know its wrong. Yet they are worse than murders by doing this for they know better and still decide to become lawbreakers. By choosing mortality are they not choosing death and revealing their true depravity? And for what purpose, the sake of experience? Or a body with its sensual desires and carnal thoughts which God hates? Furthermore they have now forsaken holy living and without holiness no man will see God. Forgive me but that still seems both idle and wicked.

You talked first about light. And that is what we gain in mortality - an enlightenment that we can obtain in no other way. We grow as adults through our experiences here. Sensationalizing the negative in this manner doesn't change any of that.

And you talk about forsaking holy living, but many of us seek holy living. We haven't forsaken it. Otherwise, as you stated, none of us could possibly see God. And the truth is that each of us have the possibility to be with God again. It is all based on our choices here.

Forgive me as well, but I find it silly to bring up being idle as a negative when you have promoted the same. Remaining with Heavenly Father, we were idle (as in not progressing). This experience is so that we will not be idle. God commanded Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. And well it is that He did, because that is what it takes for us not to be idle. And that is exactly the reason why we have all chosen this earthly journey, so that we can grow to lead truly meaningful lives instead of idly standing around God and selfishly taking from Him rather than giving our best effort.



:)
 
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skylark1

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In non-LDS belief, God is our creator. That makes us children of God. The only difference between LDS and non-LDS doctrines in this matter is that we believe that we existed before this mortal life.

I disagree with the quoted statement. In orthodox Christain theology, God is our creator. However, there are more differences about this matter between LDS doctrine and orthodox Christianity than just the LDS belief that we existed prior to our mortal life.

Gospel Principles, an introductory LDS Sunday School manual, explains:
God is not only our Ruler and Creator; He is also our Heavenly Father. All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God. “Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335).

Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family,” Gospel Principles, (2009),8–12​

So, LDS do not teach that we are children of God because he created us, but because we are literally children of God, begotten of heavenly parents. This significantly differs from orthodox Christian beliefs.




Disclaimer: This post is addressed to the forum at large.
 
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William777

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I do not rely on other men to interpret the Bible for me. That is what you honestly do as a Mormon. Your experience lacks truth, which makes it meaningless.

I disagree to a point, the only thing that makes all experiences meaningless; "Christian", Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Mormon, "Fill in the blank", is the lack of Christ. The scripture is clear, he that has Christ has life so it does not matter what men call you if you posses Christ but how many men truly posses Him? Clearly I disagree with Mormonism 100% doctrinally but what did Paul say concerning salvation? He spoke that mens salvation would not rest in the wisdom of man but in the power of God.

The problem is so many professing believers that have a knowledge of God and a form of godliness but have denied the power thereof. What good does it to a man to learn about being born again if he has not been freed from his sin and does not know the tangible aspects of being a new creation in Christ? If he has never been quickened from his dead godless state of existence and truly been brought from death to life then that profession is meaningless. If that man continues in lawless behavior in the depravity of his own heart and life what good does that knowledge? What is the purpose of knowing High doctrines concerning the washing of regeneration and rejuvenation if it is not a reality in our own hearts and lives if our hearts have not been truly cleaned?

God desires truth in the inward parts and fake religion of every kind has been the death rattle of every nation and no one wants to talk about the reality of it all that if you don't repent and turn to Christ you will die in your sins. And those pious Jews when they came to Christ discussing the acts of Herod on some unfortunate Jews, what did He say to them? "Think that those Galileans were worse sinners above all the Galileans? No! I tell you, but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." We fundamentalist are really getting away from it, often we think because our doctrines are right we can flirt with the things of this world and get by with it and everything will be ok. I don't buy it, blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God. Seems as if we've forgotten that a leather bound Bible means its to be bound in shoe leather. Ill get off my soap box :preach: but that is the real issue in every "profession" that makes it all meaningless.

-W
 
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sk8Joyful

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We are not physically light.
You don't say.
What do you believe you are? then, at the sub-atomic ;) level.

We have the light of God within us.
It has not changed to darkness. We know right from wrong.
so on the planet where you now live, people do not suffer
from abnormal & chronic conditions
? - Kewl! :cool:

We are children. And as children, we have not fully developed.
We are not fully grown. This earthly existence allows us to grow to adults.
We have left so that we may continue to mature.
so you would tell God/Christ that He is wrong??
because He counsels: "Verily, except ye Convert AS a little-child, ye can not enter God's kingdom".

Where in the Bible, did you find God's advice to fully develop, grow to adults, & mature??

Other than Christ, the only person that doesn't sin again -is someone who has passed on.
Another area, where in the Bible, God made a mistake?

God continually encourages us to Allow "new-birth" :
Romans12:2, & Ephesians 4:22-24 being renewed in the spirit of your mind, new ways of thinking,
living according to the Word-of-God. When one pays the price of no longer sinning, the spirit of the mind will be renewed... :thumbsup:

Others not so inclined, often think a new-Christian as being 'beside himself', and may mis-judge such as crazy.
Many family & friends will desert, those who live FOR God as we wisely would. One could get fired
from all manners of jobs. One could lose everything one has, but existing as a sinner no more, instead gain Christ. :clap:

The opportunity to grow to become like

the Almighty
in your dreams? - that :sorry: arrogance, Please shed.

How do you propose to grow the capacity?? like GOD, to
be omniPresent?, omniScient, omniLOVING, omniAudient, omniVoyant, omni-whatevers, &
omniPotent;
when you still have difficulty grasping being claire-audient, claire-voyant, & other related abilities, etc.


The joy of knowing that when our intimate knowledge of Him was taken away, we still chose to be in His presence.

The opportunity to follow His plan for our happiness. The ability to gain a physical body and all the joys :) that are associated with that.
This JOY :thumbsup: we can agree on: Imagine, at an age
when most others will at all costs avoid! setting foot on ice ;) -
yet, I cont. discovering & learning more... of what moves one can so much Enjoy, Yes! as an iceskater... PRAISE :clap: God :wave:
.
 
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sk8Joyful

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I really have trouble trying to determine what you are saying.
Simple.
I cared to take the time to respond to 6 of your ideas,
you posited as 'truths'; and challenged :) your beliefs.

I just don't see it as worth my effort to continue to sort through it.
Simple.
You take the time to respond to each of my responses.

Unless about others you don't :confused: care? to continue :) learning...

GOD's Peace :angel: Love :hug: & JOY :clap: to you!
.
 
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sk8Joyful

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With all of the testimony
about how the LDS prophets are false and the leadership teach false doctrine,
I thought we can just go ahead and look at what is being taught
and our critics can point out the flaws with their teachings.

This is from Monson's talk: He Is Risen :)
I don't like to point-out flaws. -
Because
I choose believing God Blessed :angel: us with this Beautiful-earth & life, for much grander :thumbsup: purposes.
In support, I also think & favor HONEST-prophets & TRUE-teachings.

I read here today, something that while in the Church, was taught just the opposite: that the Printing-press in Nauvoo
was destroyed by evil-doers & haters of God, as part of persecution.

But history ( The Wives of Joseph Smith ) reported just the opposite: "[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+1]In the relative stability of Nauvoo,
Joseph Smith
would try to establish polygamy, a practice he had flirted with in Kirtland and Missouri. Between 1841 & 1843, Joseph would marry more than 30 wives. He veiled [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+1]the practice [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+1]from the public and from his wife, Emma.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+1]In early 1844, dissenters in Nauvoo learned of Joseph’s polygamy,
and published the “Nauvoo Expositor” which accused him of
introducing the doctrine of “the plurality of wives”. As Mayor of Nauvoo, Joseph ordered the printing press destroyed.[/SIZE][/FONT]

IF Mormon-prophets, leadership plus doctrines are all TRUE,
why did Joseph Smith lead a double-life, and, then when found out, why did Joseph Smith try to destroy the evidences?

---- and
Yes! He/Christ is Risen :clap: Praise :clap: GOD - This is
TRUE-doctrine, for which all Christianity :clap: rejoyces...
 
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RufustheRed

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<text omitted>​

Obiwan said:
Now, what happened in the Garden.....? Christ shed his blood in agony.

That's NOT what that passage says, in any translation. It says that his sweat was LIKE or "as it were" great drops of blood. The passage does NOT say that his sweat was blood.

Obiwan said:
Let me ask you something..... Why don't you tell us what he was doing then to be in so much agony, that he said to "take this cup from me" even using "Abba" to his Father, and then to sweat blood, and not just sweat blood, but "great drops" of blood???

Like you are so fond of saying, you need to read the Bible more and more closely. Also, do not depend on what your church tells you it says. Read the text. What's your favorite version? KJV? Here it is (without all of the footnote markings that make the scriptures stutter, i.e. aprayed; bfather; or ccup)

Luke 22:44 (KJV) 44And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Luke 22:44 (NIV) 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

Luke 22:44 (Wescott-Hort 1881) 44&#954;&#945;&#953; &#947;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#962; &#949;&#957; &#945;&#947;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#945; &#949;&#954;&#964;&#949;&#957;&#949;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#961;&#959;&#957; &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#951;&#965;&#967;&#949;&#964;&#959; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#947;&#949;&#957;&#949;&#964;&#959; &#959; &#953;&#948;&#961;&#969;&#962; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965; &#969;&#963;&#949;&#953; &#952;&#961;&#959;&#956;&#946;&#959;&#953; &#945;&#953;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#946;&#945;&#953;&#957;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962; &#949;&#960;&#953; &#964;&#951;&#957; &#947;&#951;&#957;]]


Obiwan said:
I don't see any symbolism like that when he was on the Cross.....
The Garden is clearly where he "suffered" for the sins of the world, and the Cross is where he "died" for the sins of the world. Are you really so ingrained in your dogma that you can't see beyond what you have been told??? At least, if you don't want to believe me, then study our best scholarship on the issue.

Ditto, except why don't stop listening to those of your religion and STUDY the texts for what they say.

Rufus :wave:
 
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Obiwan

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That's NOT what that passage says, in any translation. It says that his sweat was LIKE or "as it were" great drops of blood. The passage does NOT say that his sweat was blood.
Like you are so fond of saying, you need to read the Bible more and more closely. Also, do not depend on what your church tells you it says. Read the text. What's your favorite version? KJV? Here it is (without all of the footnote markings that make the scriptures stutter, i.e. aprayed; bfather; or ccup)

Luke 22:44 (KJV) 44And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Luke 22:44 (NIV) 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

Luke 22:44 (Wescott-Hort 1881) 44&#954;&#945;&#953; &#947;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#962; &#949;&#957; &#945;&#947;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#945; &#949;&#954;&#964;&#949;&#957;&#949;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#961;&#959;&#957; &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#951;&#965;&#967;&#949;&#964;&#959; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#947;&#949;&#957;&#949;&#964;&#959; &#959; &#953;&#948;&#961;&#969;&#962; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965; &#969;&#963;&#949;&#953; &#952;&#961;&#959;&#956;&#946;&#959;&#953; &#945;&#953;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#946;&#945;&#953;&#957;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962; &#949;&#960;&#953; &#964;&#951;&#957; &#947;&#951;&#957;]]

Ditto, except why don't stop listening to those of your religion and STUDY the texts for what they say.

Rufus :wave:

You are correct..... I appologize. I wasn't paying attention in this case. However, some of the translations it "could" still be meaning that his sweat was transformed 'as blood'. The use of the word "like" may not be accurate. One other thing to note, Verses 43-44 ARE NOT in any of the "earliest" transcripts. Thus, which may indicate that this is a later addition and thus NOT actually and accurate retelling of the event. Who knows..... Nevertheless, LDS are not bound by the Bible Alone.

The LDS belief for this comes from Christ's "actual" words as recorded in D&C 19:18

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

Nevertheless, it should be clear that the Atonement began in the Garden and was finished at the Cross, and in LDS belief that is where he actually "suffered for our sins".

That should make it more clear..... Again, I appologize for me brain making a mistake. I wonder why you all never admit mistakes??? Oh well.
 
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sk8Joyful

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You are correct..... I appologize. I wasn't paying attention in this case.
I wonder
why you all never admit mistakes??? Oh well.
Obi,

Yesterday, after one too many insults from you,
against people who Politely respond to you, I about gave up. - And then,
today you actually "apologized" :thumbsup: Good! boy ;)
Now
I think, that like myself admitting Learning-mistakes readily :cool:, so do others also :)

Enjoy! a wonderful weekend :wave:
 
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RufustheRed

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You are correct..... I appologize.

Apology accepted.

I wasn't paying attention in this case.

You should always be "paying attention."

However, some of the translations it "could" still be meaning that his sweat was transformed 'as blood'. The use of the word "like" may not be accurate."

Go on. Which translations? Which Greek text are you referring to? Why do you say that the word may not be accurate when you just said that I was correct?

One other thing to note, Verses 43-44 ARE NOT in any of the "earliest" transcripts. Thus, which may indicate that this is a later addition and thus NOT actually and accurate retelling of the event.

Call for reference.

Who knows..... Nevertheless, LDS are not bound by the Bible Alone.

The LDS belief for this comes from Christ's "actual" words as recorded in D&C 19:18

Then why bother using a biblical reference when it doesn't support your D&C?

<text omitted>​

Nevertheless, it should be clear that the Atonement began in the Garden and was finished at the Cross, and in LDS belief that is where he actually "suffered for our sins".

While it may be clear to you and other LDS, it is not clear nor accepted doctrine amongst orthodox Christianity.

That should make it more clear..... Again, I appologize [sic] for me [sic] brain making a mistake. I wonder why you all never admit mistakes??? Oh well.

I do every day. However, I go to great lengths to insure that my posts are accurate. I wonder why you feel the need to attack me for not apologizing, when you haven't pointed out what I need to apologize for.

Rufus :wave:
 
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Obiwan

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Jul 19, 2006
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1. I'm human and sometimes error, especially when writing stuff in the middle of the night. I had forgotten that on this particular belief it wasn't directly stated Biblically, but only alluded to.

2. The Bible verses have a direct relation and symbolism to the Atonement as to what else is said, even if it was "like blood" rather than actual blood. Plus, it could have been actual blood, no definitive answer on that given the issues. Given the verses in question, they seem to indicate something "significant". Even if the Bible isn't as clear on the subject, the addition of Latter-day Revelation from Christ Himself makes clear that the Garden was a significant event.

3. Some of the Bible translations mention in their "notes" on verse 43-44 that those verses do not exist in the earliest known texts and/or some of the earliest texts.

See the different verses at BibleGateway.com

4. As to you, just a general comment in relation to my experience with critics and contras. We always correct you as to LDS beliefs and history (let alone Biblical things), yet you never correct yourselves. Not necessarily a statement directed at you per se, I don't know or remember you that well. That's why I said "you all".
 
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