women priests

LivingWordUnity said:

Ordination of gentiles is in Sacred Tradition which comes from the same deposit of faith that Jesus imparted to the apostles. But by contrast, women's ordination is not found anywhere in either Holy Scripture or Sacred Tradition.
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"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right." -Thomas Paine.

LivingWordUnity said:

You argued that the Church was against the casting of lots in Acts 1:26. The Catholic Church is not against what the apostles did in Acts 1:26, and you can't show that she is or has ever been against it. Falsely saying that someone is going against the word of God is a serious offense, especially when this false charge is against the same Church that was founded by none other than Christ Himself. So admit that you have borne false witness against the Catholic Church, and repent.
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Where did I post that the Roman Catholic Church is against the casting of lots. I honestly don't remember posting that. All I can remember posting it is that they don't use it and it is the only example given in Scripture. For that matter Jesus only appointed 12 Apostles why more? Jesus only appointed Jewish men why Gentiles? Do you see how arguments from silence work? Jesus told the Apostles to sell their extra cloaks and buy swords why not require each Bishop to do the same. For that matter Jesus didn't say an awful lot of stuff that the Roman Catholic Church does why do they have authority to do these things but not ordain women?

I did not commit false witness so no repentance is necessary. And I don't believe the Roman Catholic Church is the Apostolic Church.

LivingWordUnity said:

Why would God tell Adam and Eve that they can partake of everything in the Garden of Eden except for one tree with a forbidden fruit? Do you find that "laughable" too? I don't know if you realize it, but your problem with this is actually with Jesus and the apostles who only chose men for ordination.
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So you believe that the story of Adam and Eve is literal?

LivingWordUnity said:

Jesus received all authority from the Father in Heaven, but does that authority include authority to contradict the will of the Father? Of course not. That authority means that when the apostles heard Jesus, they heard the Father, just as when the Catholic Church speaks, we hear Jesus.

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According to the Roman Catholic Church which of course is convenient. The Mormons believe that their 12 Elders also speak for God why not believe them?

"You must follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

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St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8:1-2, AD 107


It's called the Deposit of Faith that was imparted from Christ to the apostles and to their successors via the Holy Spirit through something called Sacred Tradition. To even begin to understand this concept, one has to believe that the Church is divine and not a mere man-made institution.
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I am quote familiar with Roman Catholic doctrine as one of my degrees is in Roman Catholic Theology. Of course one must believe the Roman Catholic Church to be the Apostolic Church to accept that they have possession of the deposit of faith. I am convinced that they are not.

No Swansong said:

Where did I post that the Roman Catholic Church is against the casting of lots. I honestly don't remember posting that. All I can remember posting it is that they don't use it and it is the only example given in Scripture.

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You tried to make a comparison to what the Church says about so called women's ordination and casting of lots done in the book of Acts when there is no comparison. The Church says that women can't be priests, but the Church doesn't say that casting of lots is wrong. And for the third time, casting of lots done in Acts is similar to the process of how the Pope gets elected.

How do you reconcile believing that women can be ordained when the Sacred Tradition, which is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit to be without error, has always been universally held throughout the whole Church east and west that they can't be priests? Do you reject Sacred Tradition? If so, what do you base your Christian beliefs on? Remember that we only know that the Bible is the Bible because of the authority of the Catholic Church to determine the canon of scripture. Also how do you reconcile belief in women's ordination with the Bible saying that the man is the head?
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LivingWordUnity said:

You tried to make a comparison to what the Church says about so called women's ordination and casting of lots done in the book of Acts when there is no comparison.

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Indeed I made the comparison and there is a comparison. The comparison is that the Church according to you doesn't have the authority to ordain women because it wasn't granted to them to do so, yet they did somehow have the authority to change how a successor to an Apostle is chosen.

The Church says that women can't be priests, but the Church doesn't say that casting of lots is wrong. And for the third time, casting of lots done in Acts is similar to the process of how the Pope gets elected.

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How do you reconcile believing that women can be ordained when the Sacred Tradition, which is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit to be without error, has always been universally held throughout the whole Church east and west that they can't be priests?

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Again according to Roman Catholic doctrine the Holy Spirit guarantees that "Sacred Tradition" is guaranteed to be without error. The Scripture actually makes no such guarantee. I don't believe the Roman Catholic Church to be the Church. Why do you keep avoiding the question about Junias? or women Deaconesses?

Do you reject Sacred Tradition? If so, what do you base your Christian beliefs on? Remember that we only know that the Bible is the Bible because of the authority of the Catholic Church to determine the canon of scripture. Also how do you reconcile belief in women's ordination with the Bible saying that the man is the head?

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No I don't reject Tradition but I do not believe either the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Churches to be the Church. Pretty simple answer actually. If I did then there would be a problem. The Canon was decided by the ancient Church. But even then most of them were wrong until the 1500's. Again I don't consider either the Roman Catholic or the Orthodox Churches to be the ancient Church. But even if I did then they would have to explain Junias and the Deaconesses.

No Swansong,

I think the main difference between you and me is that you view the Church as a fallible man-made institution whereas I believe the Church is divinely instituted and guided by the Holy Spirit in all truth regarding faith and morals.
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Your epistemology needs work.

LivingWordUnity said:

No Swansong,

I think the main difference between you and me is that you view the Church as a fallible man-made institution whereas I believe the Church is divinely instituted and guided by the Holy Spirit in all truth regarding faith and morals.
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You're close I believe the Roman Catholic Church to be a fallible man-made institution.

I believe The Church to be divinely instituted and guided by the Holy Spirit in truth, but that man is not always capable enough to understand or recognize this truth right away. \


You are, in my opinion, confusing The Roman Catholic Church with The Church.

fragmentsofdreams said:

Your epistemology needs work.

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That's what the Bishop of the Diocese I live in said too. Of course the Dean of the Lutheran Seminary here thinks it's spot on.

No Swansong said:

That's what the Bishop of the Diocese I live in said too. Of course the Dean of the Lutheran Seminary here thinks it's spot on.

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Well said!

No Swansong said:

You're close I believe the Roman Catholic Church to be a fallible man-made institution.

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Name that man.
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I personally don't have any problem with women taking part in the ordained ministry. I know that as with the Orthodox, the church has decreed (mostly on the grounds of tradition) that it has no authority or power to ordain women, and this was endorsed by John Paul II. Because of this, many Catholics feel the matter has been settled for all time. On the other hand, it is clear both in the scriptures and also in the history of the church that women have been important, both in salvation history and also as ministers in the church. Unfortunately though, there has been strong prejudice against women in the church down the ages, and that can be seen also today in some of the more hysterical rantings of conservatives in various churches who seem to really despise the idea of women doing anything much at all and would prefer that women 'be silent and not teach' as the author of the Epistle of Timothy urged.

There are many examples of great women in the church. Mary is perhaps the prime example of a great woman but there have also been many great women saints in the church (i.e. Julian of Norwich, Metchild of Magdeburg, Joan of Arc, Hildegard of Bingen, Teresa of Avila, Teresa of Jesus, Benedicta of the Cross, Mary McKillop, etc) whose lives have been examples of holiness and authentic life in Christ without them being ordained to the priesthood. Today of course we have many women who do positive lay roles in the church, or who are religious, or teach theology. I think the church should, if it feels it cannot ordain women, do more to encourage lay women to participate more in various ministries of the church, particularly in light of the serious priest shortage.

Ultimately it is a decision each church has to make. Even so, women used to be excluded from most professions and also from university education. The fact we have accepted women as corporate CEO's, scientists, university chancellors, judges and leaders of nations in my view also means that we should not exclude women from the roles of highest importance and power in the spheres of religious leadership.

no....the keys are to the authority of Jesus, given to the church...the Pope cannot do anything that contradicts the bible or the sacred tradition laid down by the fathers....

the binding and loosing is to enforce the law laid down by Jesus to bind people to the truth, and to loose them from the power of darkness ....Jesus who went about healing all who were oppressed by the devil....type of thing...not for Peter or one of his descendants to rewrite canon law or church precepts, because gloria steinem said so....

LivingWordUnity said:

Name that man.
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All of them?

plmarquette said:

no....the keys are to the authority of Jesus, given to the church...the Pope cannot do anything that contradicts the bible or the sacred tradition laid down by the fathers....

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Well since Jesus contradicted both Scripture and Tradition, and reminded us that they are for man, not the other way around, I would assume that we can follow HIS example.

I wouldn't have anything against women catholic priestesses. I see no fundamental reasons why there cannot be. But it doesn't bother me that much that there aren't... I think the Catholic Church can do what it wants with the religious orders and rules, it's not a big deal.

And regarding with the foundation of the Church, of course "that man" is Jesus. He founded the Church, but it didn't certainly make it "infallible". St.Peter himself was often wrong (both in actions such as when he refused to recognize Jesus three times, and in ideas when he was corrected by St.Paul) but that didn't make him less Saint. But the most important thing is that Jesus warned everyone, and in particular the apostles, not to call themselves or anyone "father" because the only Father is in heaven, and not to call themselves or anyone "master" because the only Master is Jesus Christ. That is very much a strong warning against the vanity of thinking yourself "infallible".

The Church remains Saint even if it makes a mistake... the Church is Holy but it's human, and indeed you need to be human to be a Saint!

I find it amusing that in a discussion about women ordination, there is only one post actually written by a woman.

But since men make most of the decisions regarding what is and is not acceptable for women in society anyway, why should this not spill over into religious life.

JasonV said:

When Christ gave St Peter the Keys of the Kingdom, with the power to "loose and bind" that certainly means that The Church can adjust anything it deems necessary.

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Except what God ordains- and on the issue of female priests, Pope John Paul II wrote the the Church does not have the authority to do so.

SpiritualAntiseptic said:

Except what God ordains- and on the issue of female priests, Pope John Paul II wrote the the Church does not have the authority to do so.

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How do you figure a church imposed ban is the same as what God ordains?