To all athiests out there: bring it on

Originally posted by tacoman528
I challenge anyone who thinks that science disproves the bible.

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Science doesn't disprove the Bible. Science only disproves certain narrow interpretations of the Bible.

Reply to this message if anyone thinks there is evidence for The Big Bang, evolution, or anything else that is anti-bible and anti-science and I will personally make sure that you never use that against a new christian who doesn't absolutely know every little trick that you use on the likes of them.

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Sounds like you want to meet me in the alley and beat me up. Anyway, consider the picture below:



As you probably know, humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, while apes have 24. In the diagram above, the leftmost chromosome is from a human, while the others are the analogous chromosomes from chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.

As you can see, the human chromosome clearly appears to match a fused version of two ape chromosomes. Detailed study of the human chromosome has even found vestiges of telomeres (special markers at the ends of chromosomes) at the fusion point and a vestigial centromere (the narrow part in the middle) in the lower part of the human chromosome.

If humans and apes do NOT share a common ancestor, then how else do you explain this rather bizarre coincidence of facts?

(A full discussion of this evidence can be found here.

You know, as a general rule, we usually give the newbies a little slack, but you did say, "Bring it on..."

Originally posted by tacoman528
To seebs,
That is my definition of a rediculous question. but I'll answer it anyway. in my experience, God doesn't lie. It even says in the Bible that he cannot lie. If he says he created the earth in six days, there was a flood that overran the earth, and Jesus walked in Palestine 2000 years ago, I'll believe it. And if you don't believe in god or the bible, that how did the universe suddenly appear 5 minutes ago without anything to put it there.

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You probably shouldn't believe everything you read...

So you believe that science can't disprove talking snakes? (Genesis 3:1)

So you believe that clouds are not collections of water vapor, but are the dust God kicks up as he walks across the land? (Nahum 1:3)

So you believe that thunder is not caused by static electricity, but is the voice of God, and lightning is his weapon? (Job 37:2-3)

So you believe that rainbows are not caused by refracting light, but caused by God to remind himself not to destroy the world with another flood? (Genesis 9:13-15)

So you believe that earthquakes are not caused by shifting tectonic plates, but by God's wrath? (Psalms 18:7)

So you believe that the Bible is the infalliable Word of God, and you believe the Bible is God's word because it says it is. Circular reasoning won't cut it around here.

Please don't ask me questions that relate to things like this and what I previously stated in my first message because I will ignore them.

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Well then it really isn't an open challenge if you get to pick and choose your questions, now is it?

 

Originally posted by tacoman528
To seebs,
That is my definition of a rediculous question. but I'll answer it anyway. in my experience, God doesn't lie. It even says in the Bible that he cannot lie. If he says he created the earth in six days, there was a flood that overran the earth, and Jesus walked in Palestine 2000 years ago, I'll believe it. And if you don't believe in god or the bible, that how did the universe suddenly appear 5 minutes ago without anything to put it there.

Please don't ask me questions that relate to things like this and what I previously stated in my first message because I will ignore them.

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Well, if you won't provide *scientific* evidence, this is pointless. I can talk to a friend who believes in the Norse creation myth, and his "evidence" is just as good as "this is how I read the Bible".

I believe the Bible's material on creation to be metaphorical and mythological. This fits better with my experience. I believe in God just fine, thanks, and the God I believe in told me to look at creation, and see if it does not bear testimony to His glory. So... I look, and I take it seriously, and I assume that the world itself is real, and I try to find out what I can about it.

Based on what I have seen, I do not believe the world to be young, and I do not believe in a global flood. If you want to convince me otherwise, talk to me about physical evidence that stays true no matter what you believe. If the world doesn't testify to God, we have a real problem with our theology.

Just to be fair: I don't think science can disprove talking snakes. I think science can demonstrate that such an occurrence would necessarily be miraculous, but that doesn't, IMHO, prove that it can't happen.

I agree with your points about clouds and lightning, however, when we discuss miracles, the objection that "it's contrary to science" is a meaningless one. The ancient people who wrote this stuff down knew it was contrary to science! That's *WHY* they wrote it down as a "miracle" instead of as "an everyday occurrence".

Originally posted by Warrior FC
Some lived to be over 900 yrs. old....The bible also says that later God shortened peoples life span to 120 yrs.

where?

You can't trust the bible which is claimed to be inspired words from God, but why do you trust what other men say? The same men you trust in for evolution, science, etc.. are the same men that are capable of lying, cheating, stealing, and killing!

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I trust what other men say b/c I can test their claims to see if what they claim is true. that is what we commonly call science. I can not test the claims of humans living 200+ years. According to all the data that is not possible with out gene therapy.

Is there going to be any addressing of the science by the original poster?

For some reason I am impatient to hear what they have to say.

I think it might have something to do with the grandiose nature of the op ... but I am probably just being mean.

Originally posted by tacoman528
Reply to this message if anyone thinks there is evidence for The Big Bang, evolution, or anything else that is anti-bible and anti-science and I will personally make sure that you never use that against a new christian who doesn't absolutely know every little trick that you use on the likes of them.

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Geesh!  What's with all the hostility?  Mellow out, man.  It sounds like you want to agrue with your fists, not your mind.

I keep hearing this rumor that Christians are gentle and peaceful folk - who love everyone.  Could it be I was lied to?

 

 

I have a few questions about the flood (assuming we're talking about a global deluge a mere 4000 or so years ago).

Where did all the water come from, assuming enough water to cover the entire planet? (And keep in mind, you have to account for the energy released by such a deluge of water and/or tectonic activity at the time; most calculations I've seen put the amount of energy released at being enough to boil the entire planet.)

How did predators survive after the flood? Predators require a large amount of food to sustain them, so a vastly diminished food source after the flood would throw the whole ecosystem out of whack.

Assuming Noah took a "reasonable" number of animals onto the Ark (i.e. a number that is physically possible), how do you then explain the current biodiversity on the planet? Or, if Noah took every species of every land-dweller on the Ark, where did he put them all (and even that still doesn't address the issue of biodiversity)?

Originally posted by David Gould
Is there going to be any addressing of the science by the original poster?

For some reason I am impatient to hear what they have to say.

I think it might have something to do with the grandiose nature of the op ... but I am probably just being mean.

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Methinks he bit off more than he could chew. I've seem debates rage for pages on just one of any of the topics posted, let alone all of them.

Originally posted by Pete Harcoff
Methinks he bit off more than he could chew. I've seem debates rage for pages on just one of any of the topics posted, let alone all of them.

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You are probably right - everything from the Big Bang to evolution and the whole of the Bible is probably a bit too much. Perhaps he should take a deep breath and post one topic that he wishes to discuss.

I apologise to him for being mean.

Hey Peter Harcoff! There was a Global flood about 4,000 years ago. There are many proofs. I'll try to do it as simply as I can.
1) The water came from a canopy that covered the earth, creating a Greenhouse type effect. God caused this canopy to fall like rain. Millions of Gallons.
2) The tectonic activity was great, enough to form great mountains and volcanos and undergraound earthquakes. And it did pretty much throw the ecosystem out of whack, that is one reason why man does not live as long as they used to before the flood (Adam 900+ years).
3) Predators survived the Flood because they were on the Ark, just like every other species of animals except the marine life.
4) Noah's Ark was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. Do you realize how big that is? Noah took two of every animal right, in fact he took two of every dinosaur as well. So how did they all fit? They were babies and youth.
You might ask, if there were dinosaurs on the ark then why aren't they alive today. Well, like I said, 1) the canopy was gone and 2) the ecosystem was very different. Most dinosaurs died after the flood. Some survived, but no longer grew to the size that they once had. Others could still be alive today, just at a smaller scale.
Really good question Pete!! Good thought!
God Bless, Willowolf : )

I would just like to say, as a christian, that I do not believe in the 6000 year theory, I've researched it, but find it lacking.

I don't think science disproves the bible, nor does it impact someone's faith. Certainly, very little of what is in the bible is supported by scientific evidence - but that does not mean one should throw their bible away. It just means that the bible is not a science textbook. Just because someone does not believe everything that is in the bible, does not mean they don't beleive in God (they just don't beleive in a God that you find acceptable).

"1) The water came from a canopy that covered the earth, creating a Greenhouse type effect. God caused this canopy to fall like rain. Millions of Gallons."

I thought that the pressure of that much water vapor would have crushed every living thing on earth. This canopy would have had to be several miles thick.

Originally posted by Willowolf
Hey Peter Harcoff! There was a Global flood about 4,000 years ago. There are many proofs. I'll try to do it as simply as I can.
1) The water came from a canopy that covered the earth, creating a Greenhouse type effect. God caused this canopy to fall like rain. Millions of Gallons.
2) The tectonic activity was great, enough to form great mountains and volcanos and undergraound earthquakes. And it did pretty much throw the ecosystem out of whack, that is one reason why man does not live as long as they used to before the flood (Adam 900+ years).
3) Predators survived the Flood because they were on the Ark, just like every other species of animals except the marine life.
4) Noah's Ark was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. Do you realize how big that is? Noah took two of every animal right, in fact he took two of every dinosaur as well. So how did they all fit? They were babies and youth.
You might ask, if there were dinosaurs on the ark then why aren't they alive today. Well, like I said, 1) the canopy was gone and 2) the ecosystem was very different. Most dinosaurs died after the flood. Some survived, but no longer grew to the size that they once had. Others could still be alive today, just at a smaller scale.
Really good question Pete!! Good thought!
God Bless, Willowolf : )

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What did the predators eat when they were on the ark? To ask another question, what did the herbivores eat? How was it stored and preserved?

Originally posted by Willowolf
Hey Peter Harcoff! There was a Global flood about 4,000 years ago. There are many proofs. I'll try to do it as simply as I can.
1) The water came from a canopy that covered the earth, creating a Greenhouse type effect. God caused this canopy to fall like rain. Millions of Gallons.
2) The tectonic activity was great, enough to form great mountains and volcanos and undergraound earthquakes. And it did pretty much throw the ecosystem out of whack, that is one reason why man does not live as long as they used to before the flood (Adam 900+ years).
3) Predators survived the Flood because they were on the Ark, just like every other species of animals except the marine life.
4) Noah's Ark was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. Do you realize how big that is? Noah took two of every animal right, in fact he took two of every dinosaur as well. So how did they all fit? They were babies and youth.
You might ask, if there were dinosaurs on the ark then why aren't they alive today. Well, like I said, 1) the canopy was gone and 2) the ecosystem was very different. Most dinosaurs died after the flood. Some survived, but no longer grew to the size that they once had. Others could still be alive today, just at a smaller scale.
Really good question Pete!! Good thought!
God Bless, Willowolf : )

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I'm sorry did you say he took dinosaurs on the ark well "baby dinosaurs" lol do you know how crazy that sounds. lol I guess the dinosaurs never grew, or ate, or anything like that. You are a funny dude. Thanks for the laugh.

I am curious as to how Noah and his sons gathered the 40,000 + species of beetles alone, much less all the other insects from all over the world, many of which require very very specific environments and food to live. You can't just stick a delicate butterfly from the Amazon in a  cage for 40 days.
Also, which of Noah's family carried the Plague, anthrax, smallpox, and all the deadly viruses which REQUIRE a human host?

How did the kangaroos and koala bears get from Mt. Ararat to Australia? Swim?

Originally posted by Willowolf
Hey Peter Harcoff! There was a Global flood about 4,000 years ago. There are many proofs. I'll try to do it as simply as I can.

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First off, I've seen all the "proofs" of the global flood. I've also seen them all soundly refuted.

1) The water came from a canopy that covered the earth, creating a Greenhouse type effect. God caused this canopy to fall like rain. Millions of Gallons.
2) The tectonic activity was great, enough to form great mountains and volcanos and undergraound earthquakes. And it did pretty much throw the ecosystem out of whack, that is one reason why man does not live as long as they used to before the flood (Adam 900+ years).

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You missed the point about the energy released from these cataclysmic events. Where did it go?

3) Predators survived the Flood because they were on the Ark, just like every other species of animals except the marine life.

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I don't care how they survived while on the Ark. I care how they survived after the Ark. Think about it for a second. You have, for arguments sake, 2 of all these different animals. After leaving the Ark (I'll assume they were fed while on board), all these predators have to eat something, if they're going make lots of predator babies. Well, there needs to be a suffiencient "prey" population for the predators to feast on. If the limited population of "prey" is being eaten at that time, you've got a rather big ecological problem (for the survivability of both predators and prey).

4) <snip>

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Seen the Hovind video, got the T-Shirt.

First of all, there's absolutely no way to fit every species of land-dwelling animal, both past and present on board the Ark, and have room for all the food required by all those animals. Reasonable assumptions I've seen puts the number of animals ranging from a few thousand to upwards of twenty thousand (still not possible in my estimation, especially considering they had only eight human caretakers)

But, if we assume a "realistic" number, then how do you account for current biodiversity on the planet? You didn't address that one.

moo

Okay, I'll bite-why don't we find cows in Jurassic Rocks if yhere was a worldwide flood?\\Chris