Thank you! I appreciate the kind words. Just to let you know, I updated what I had written under Ephesians 2:8-9 with a more detailed explanation that will be more helpful.
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Does God grant faith, repentance and belief? Or does man do it on his own?
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Thank you! I appreciate the kind words. Just to let you know, I updated what I had written under Ephesians 2:8-9 with a more detailed explanation that will be more helpful.
Calminian
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Hey, CmRoddy, I'm not sure if you realize this, but the fact that you're using the word grant, instead of gives, is actually a concession to the arminian side of the argument. Grant implies opportunity or choice. You may want to change the title.
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Hello, Calminian
I used "grant" because it can have several different meanings. I also used it because Phil. 1:29 uses it. But Eph. 2:8-9 implies gives.
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Calminian
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And it's interesting that generally all translations use the english word "granted" in the Philippian passage. It's primary meaning is to consent, allow, permit, give the right privilege, etc.
a: to consent to carry out for a person : allow fulfillment of <grant a request> b: to permit as a right, privilege, or favor <luggage allowances granted to passengers>
Arminians content God grants faith. Calvinists content he gives it. At best it leaves a slight possibility for your case. At worse in refutes it.
Eph. 2:8-9 speaks of grace through faith as a gift. As you know, gifts can be rejected. And in the bible we often see gifts being rejected, which was a grievous insult in ANE culture. I'm assuming you're angling for the doctrine of irresistible or efficacious grace. If that's the case, both the words, gift and granted work against you.
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There you go again quoting LB. Have you heard the term the blind leading the blind? Dogs run in packs, cattle stampede in herds, fish swim in schools, water runs down stream, hot air raises, etc. and RT Calvinist follow RT / Calvinist: Now is that a revelation or what? Did the light come on?
or are you confussed 
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There you go again quoting LB. Have you heard the term the blind leading the blind? Dogs run in packs, cattle stampede in herds, fish swim in schools, water runs down stream, hot air raises, etc. and RT Calvinist follow RT / Calvinist: Now is that a revelation or what? Did the light come on?
You were refuted on CARM and you will be refuted here.
You still haven't answer my question on Ephesians 2:8-9. You said that faith isn't a gift, but Ephesians 2 says it is. Can you explain yourself?
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Actually the arminian attempt would be to establish that God grants the ability to believe. Were God to grant belief itself, then the person would have belief.
Just as luggage allowances are granted. If an airline granted luggage to all its passengers then all its passengers would have luggage.
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There you go again quoting LB. Have you heard the term the blind leading the blind? Dogs run in packs, cattle stampede in herds, fish swim in schools, water runs down stream, hot air raises, etc. and RT Calvinist follow RT / Calvinist: Now is that a revelation or what? Did the light come on?
Is that all you have anymore? That wasn't even close to a refutation. Your arguments were much better before you went to CARM. Now you don't even have any.
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LamorakDesGalis
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Not so sure?? Where is the connection of faith and repentance with the individual? God doesn't repent for the individual. God doesn't believe for the individual. And God does not override the person's will.
When a person remains in unbelief, they are held responsible by God. Responsibility implies choice - it implies second cause. Historic Calvinists affirm both God's sovereignty AND human responsibility:
Westminster Confession:
I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
John Flavel:
Coming to Christ notes the voluntariness of the soul in its motion to Christ. It is true, there is no coming without the Father's drawing; but that drawing has nothing of coaction in it; it does not destroy, but powerfully, and with an overcoming sweetness, persuade the will. It is not forced or driven, but it comes; being made "willing in the day of God's power"...
I suppose no one is disturbed to see that the resident Hyper-Calvinist agrees with the OP. Overreacting toward one error often leads to another.
LDG
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LamorakDesGalis
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No, Ephesians 2:8-9 does not refer to faith as a gift. The gender of "this" and "faith" are different in the Greek. "This" refers to the concept of salvation by grace through faith.
LDG
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By your logic, none of the first part is a gift because "that" is a neuter while "grace", "salvation", and "faith" are either feminine or masculine.
Ephesians. 2:8-9 (ESV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
By grace refers to God's favor upon those who have transgressed his law and sinned against him. But grace may also be understood as a “power” in these verses. God's grace not only offers salvation but also secures it. Saved refers to deliverance from God's wrath at the final judgment (Rom. 5:9); “by grace you have been saved” is repeated from Eph. 2:5 for emphasis. The verb form for “have been saved” (Gk. sesōsmenoi, perfect tense) communicates that the Christian's salvation is fully secured.
through faith. Faith is a confident trust and reliance upon Christ Jesus and is the only means by which one can obtain salvation.
this. The Greek pronoun is neuter, while “grace” and “faith” are feminine. Accordingly, “this” points to the whole process of “salvation by grace through faith” as being the gift of God and not something that we can accomplish ourselves. This use of the neuter pronoun to take in the whole of a complex idea is quite common in Greek (e.g., 6:1); its use here makes it clear that faith, no less than grace, is a gift of God. Salvation, therefore, in every respect, is not your own doing.
Source: ESV Study Bible
Any Greek scholar can see this.
Let me give you another source. This one from The Potter's Freedom by James White.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
"The Greek term for "that" is the neuter singular demonstrative pronoun. The basic rule of thumb is to look for a singular neuter noun in the immediate context as the antecedent of the pronoun. Yet, there are no neuter singular nouns in the first phrase of Ephesians 2:8. "Grace" is feminine singular; "have been saved" is a masculine participle; "faith" is feminine singular. So to what does "that" refer?
The simple answer is: the entirety of the phrase "for by grace you have been saved through faith." It is good Greek grammar to use a neutral pronoun to "wrap up" a phrase or a series of thoughts into a single whole. Paul's point is that the entirety of the work of salvation does not find its basis in men but in God: true salvation is the gift of God, not a work of man. All of it is free, all of it is divine, not human" (White 295-296).
As can be plainly seen based on the Greek grammar, the entire first part of Eph. 2:8 is a gift. The grace and salvation are just as much a gift as the faith that man practices.
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Yeh, people believe, people repent, people will. But for what cause: not so sure.
- Persons do not thereby exercise autonomy. They aren't conferred the power to rightly exercise sinful directions.
- If God didn't change something about the person's will, to where he's now desiring something he didn't used to desire -- then the will would not be changed.
- I also worry that if we don't consider the role of our union with Christ that is so critical to our salvation and pervasive throughout Scripture, then the individual essentially becomes much more highly considered than "Christ in us, the hope of glory."
Sure, there's individual responsibility for unbelief, and there's persuasion as well as conversion. But we're utterly dependent on their being shared responsibility for sin; so it would bother me to assert that our responsibility in faith and repentance is somehow unshared, at least. Semi-Pelagians even hold to shared responsibility here; even the Roman Catholic position (slightly less even than semi-Pelagianism) has a shared responsibility. Calvinists hold to a much larger share -- a full bearing of responsibility for our sin, through grace -- going over to God in Christ. There's an unusual kind of calculation at work, in union.
It's really along this line that you can see differences in the theologies, yes. Hypercalvinism tends to bottom-out this responsibility completely, when Calvinism tends to point to responsibility as a result of God's work, and an instrument of His saving application more than a cause.
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LamorakDesGalis
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No, that's not how Greek grammar works. In Greek touto - this - commonly takes a conceptual antecedent. In this verse it refers to the whole phrase salvation by grace through faith. "Grace" and "faith" are the other potential antecedents, but very unlikely because they are feminine while touto is neuter.
No - ESV footnotes are not the original Greek. The ESV note on Ephesians 2:8 "this" overstates its case; they want to have their cake and eat it too. One cannot make the Greek "this" refer to the concept of the whole process AND distribute it to all the individual "parts" (grace, faith). "This" refers to one antecedent, not three. Check Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics.
All of what White said is fine except the last paragraph, which like the ESV note, he then overstates the case. Again, we are looking at one antecedent - not three.
There are certain assumptions going on here as well. Paul never calls faith a "work" - in fact with regard to justification he contrasts faith with the works of the law. We really get back to the questions I originally asked that were never answered -what is the nature of faith?
LDG
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cygnusx1
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why do you suppose there is hostility towards Christians and the Gospel (when it is truly preached ) why is it , that the Gospel message , seeing as it is so wonderful and life giving is not accepted by even the majority , why do the majority of sinners reject Christ , and only a small minority of mankind recognise , realise and willingly submit to the reign of Christ ?
You can tell me nothing about the flesh and it's power that I am not fully aware of ........... even in the Christian there is left a nature that is at war with God ......... that loves sin and hates righteousness and prefers darkness to light , that is not in subjection to God and His law , that is willfull , ignorant , repugnant and more stubborn than a mule ............ and that is in THE CHRISTIAN!!!!
So where does that leave the unregenerate! ............ in total darkness and at war with God , in a dispicable place , hostile in mind and deed , and without purity , good conscience and in desperate need of Grace.
You can tell me nothing about the flesh and it's power that I am not fully aware of ........... even in the Christian there is left a nature that is at war with God ......... that loves sin and hates righteousness and prefers darkness to light , that is not in subjection to God and His law , that is willfull , ignorant , repugnant and more stubborn than a mule ............ and that is in THE CHRISTIAN!!!!
So where does that leave the unregenerate! ............ in total darkness and at war with God , in a dispicable place , hostile in mind and deed , and without purity , good conscience and in desperate need of Grace.
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