Opinions

Originally posted by Starscream
Yeesh, you are one tough customer aren't you?

Here's my take:  "I am sorry, Christianty is an upstanding religion.  I was confused by the history of violence, the pedophile preists, and other such things."

Thou shall not bear false witness.

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Here is MY take: Catholics condemn Christianity's past.  Catholics condemn pedo-priests.  In fact, some of the LOUDEST voices are Catholics. Little Catholic boys were the victims, afterall.

Catholics are demanding the removal of rapist priests.  HOWEVER, where are the Muslims demanding anti-American and anti-Jewish immams (or however you spell that) step down?  Why isnt the Muslim leadership issuing FATWAS against Bin Laden and others who pervert (supposedly) Islam's "peaceful" message?  Where are the Muslim clergy closing down anti-American and anti-Jewish Saudi-funded Muslim Schools (here in the U.S.!!!)?

Silence.

Originally posted by Starscream


Thou shall not bear false witness.

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Yes, and don't forget about the commandments that say moon gods like Allah are not to be worshiped (Allah was the moon god of the kabbah. Muhammad chose the moon gld of Allah because he was the "head god" or something like that).  You obviously think much of peace.  Jesus is the TRUE PRINCE OF PEACE.  Jesus never married 9 year old girls.  Jesus never waged war against non-believers like Muhammad did.  DId I mention Muhammad marrying the 9 year old?  Yes, but it is so vile it is worth saying twice.

Great points Vegan.

For those who are willing to hear.

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Originally posted by vegan
Silence.

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You are lying.  *again*

Have you read *any* of the links I provided for you?

Here's another (it's actually a link from one of the links you've ignored).

It contains sentiments from hundreds of influential Muslim people, hundreds.  It even contain links for more compilations out outrage towards terrorism.

Your posts are full of emotion but lacking in facts.  Sheesh!  Next your going to be telling us that Allah is a moon god.

Yes, and don't forget about the commandments that say moon gods like Allah are not to be worshiped (Allah was the moon god of the kabbah. Muhammad chose the moon gld of Allah because he was the "head god" or something like that).

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I just knew it!

Here's some advice:  when you attempt to bash a religion, it will do you best not to spread the same ignorant falsehoods that we've all heard time and time again.  It will only make you look ignorant at best and a liar at worst.  I'd advise you avoid Chick Tracts as a primary source for education.

You obviously think much of peace.

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I do.  I really do.  Hey, do you value peace?  Don't you realize that your hateful words only make matters worse?  What is a Muslim who happens to read your words to think?  Surely he will conclude that you have only hate for him and his religion - because somehow he wasn't able to satisfy you needs for outrage towards terrorism (even though you didn't even look for such commentary).  How is that going to help?

Jesus is the TRUE PRINCE OF PEACE.

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Uh-huh, and Christian history has just as much blood on it's hands.  Jesus did say a lot regarding peace, including:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!"

"Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division."

And don't forget Jesus on love:

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."


No doubt this bothers you.  No doubt you feel you have an apologetic for each of these verses.  Why oh why oh why can you not understand that other religions have such apologetics for the verses you use to slander them?

DId I mention Muhammad marrying the 9 year old?  Yes, but it is so vile it is worth saying twice.

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How is this any worse than Moses telling his guys to kill every man, every boy, and every woman, but keep the virgins for yourselves?

Did I mention Moses instructed his men to slaughter whole villages but to keep the virgin ladies for themselves?  Yes, but it is so vile it is worth saying twice.

Originally posted by notto
For those who are willing to hear.

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

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"Willing" being the operative word here.

From one of the (ignored) links I gave above:

Over the past year, numerous criticisms have been made that Muslim leaders and organizations have not been outspoken enough in denouncing the violence and horror of September 11, 2001.  Muslims are constantly perplexed by this accusation, as we have heard nothing but unequivocal and unified condemnations by the leaders of our community, both in the United States and worldwide.  But for some reason, people are not listening.

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Tell us Vegan, why are you not listening?  Why are you playing into the hands of terrorists?  You do realize that your hate-filled rhetoric and attitude is exactly what they want, right? 

 

Going back to the first post, sort of...

Maybe that reporter was right. Muhammad might have married a Miss World contestant -- or her nine-year-old sister. Muhammad likes little girls, Catholic priests like little boys, it all balances out pretty nicely, doncha think?

Starscream - I have read the webpages you sent. I have heard that Hooper fellow on the talk shows. I UNDERSTAND that some Muslims have distanced themselves from the events of 9-11. Fine. Enough said.

Now, if you truly believe that Muslims in America (whether they be foreign or nationals) who have grown up in Mosques, homes and schools that preach that American foreign policy results in the death of innocent Muslim Children in Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) have America's best interest in mind then you are misguided.

God will bless those who bless Yisrael and curse them that curse Yisrael.

Do I think all Muslims are evil? No. But I think their leaders, even when posting a comment how they think the death of 3000 Americans was a bad thing (freakin' humanitarians, they are) have spread a feelings of anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism.

Obviously you will disagree with this post, so why don't you tell me something new instead like:

1. Are you a Muslim?
2. Are you a Christian?
3. Why are you posting on a Christian board? THere are plenty of Muslim boards, I am sure.

Just a reminder:&nbsp&nbspUse your e-mail or private message option through the profile page to express personal, negative opinions to each other. Do not post them here. If the bickering and flaming continue, the thread will be closed and/or warnings issued.

Thank you for your cooperation.


[noflame]Think twice before posting.[/noflame]

I wonder who insulted whom. I know I launched no personal attacks. I hope this admin messg is in refrence to me being called hate-filled and told that Chick-Tracks are my sole intellectual endevor.

I say support the president when he is right.

  I don't go along with something that I don't believe in, just because he is president.

I don't think we should have a bloody war and kill many people to take out one man.

 I say support our president when he is in the right.

 To support him at any cause is insane and that is just taking one more freedom away.

   Democracy we are supposed to be.

How that last post of mine got there I don't know.

 Sorry people

Well... First of all GOOD BOY Star Scream, I think I have debated with you before and you were against me!... But I would like to thankyou for being one of the minority on Christianforums who isn't Racist and prejudice towards the Muslim religion and those who live in the middle east.

Its very refreshing.

Christianity has HUGE flaws? Why? Because Christianity is run by SINNERS... (im referring to the institution not the teachings of the bible).

Muslim beliefs have HUGE flaws? Why? Because Islam is run by SINNERS... (Again I am referring to the institution not the quaran - im sorry i know i spelt it wrong).

Something that seems to blind a WHOLE lot of people on these forums is the difference between the institution and the actual faith and beliefs.

A lot of you will probably already know my stance on This war. And yes you are about to hear it again.
Vegan - You say you want peace? and that Star Scream doesn't??? If America goes ahead with this Middle east conflict what do you think it is going to do? Bring peace? REMIND ME AGAIN WHY THERE IS A CONFLICT IN THE FIRST PLACE??? Are we trying to get Osama or are we trying to get Weapons of Mass Destruction?? If we are after Osoma then how does bombing a whole country relate at all??? If we are going to get rid of weapons of mass destruction then we better bomb Usa, Russia, North Korea, UK, France, Israel, Pakistan and India too???
Since I know we are all to lazy to follow links I will cut and paste a few things.....

"Like people everywhere, most people in the US think it's wrong to kill civilians as a means of pressuring their government. But for many, the link between this conviction and opposition to the US plan to attack Iraq is severed by fear, misinformation and a desensitization to what war will really mean for ordinary people in Iraq. This guide is intended to help combat the euphemisms ("collateral damage") and passive language ("bombs fell") that obscure the suffering that the Bush Administration's plans will cause. We hope it will be useful to you in navigating conversations about the war and encouraging family and friends to take a stand for peaceful alternatives.

What does war mean for women and families in Iraq?

The Bush Administration wants to bomb Baghdad, a city of five million people. This would cause a humanitarian catastrophe equivalent to a heavy air bombardment of Los Angeles.

A November report by the global health organization Medact estimates that at least 50,000 civilians are likely to be killed by a US attack.

Many more civilians are likely to die from longer-term effects of a bombing, including environmental damage and the destruction of food supplies, agriculture and critical infrastructure, such as pharmaceutical plants and hospitals.

Remind people that this war is broader than the attack now being planned by the Bush Administration. It includes the combined impact of the 1991 Desert Storm bombing and the 12 years of sanctions and intermittent bombing since then. British and US forces have bombed Iraq more than 50 times this year alone and killed over 500 people since 1999.

What has been the impact of US-led sanctions and bombing on Iraqi women and families?

According to UNICEF and the World Health Organization, US-led sanctions have killed over one million people.

Nearly 60% of the dead are children under the age of seven.

4,500 children die every month from starvation and preventable disease (a six-fold increase since 1990).

The number one killer of young children is dehydration from diarrhea caused by water-borne illnesses, on the rise since the US bombed the electricity grids that powered Iraq's water treatment plants. Sanctions have prevented Iraq from importing replacement parts for chemicals needed to treat water.
Iraq's public health sector is nearing total collapse from a lack of basic medicines and supplies.

Diseases not seen for decades have reemerged -- cholera, typhoid and an epidemic of malaria.

Southern Iraq has seen a three-fold rise in childhood cancers since the US dropped radioactive uranium-tipped bombs on the area.

Without hard currency, Iraq's economy has virtually collapsed.

Iraq's social fabric is unraveling, with a huge increase in begging, street children, crime and prostitution.

This widespread suffering is occurring in a country that was, thanks to oil revenues and Ba'athist social policies, fairly prosperous, with an educated workforce, solid middle class, modern infrastructure and sound public services.

Remind people that although the media ignores the humanitarian disaster caused by sanctions, they constitute a devastating attack on the most vulnerable Iraqis and should be considered weapons of mass destruction.

What would a new US-imposed government mean for Iraqi women?

Iraqi women are among the most emancipated in the region, although they suffer severe repression as citizens of Iraq. For while their government suppresses civil and political rights, it has guaranteed women social and economic rights.

Before US-led sanctions destroyed Iraq's ability to provide public services, women enjoyed rights to education, employment, freedom of movement, equal pay for equal work, universal day care and five years maternity leave. The 2002 United Nations Arab Human Development Report rates Iraq first among Arab countries for women's empowerment.

While Iraqi women long for democratic rights, they have little reason to be optimistic about a new, US-backed regime, which is most likely to be a military dictatorship under different leadership ("Unveiled: The Thugs Bush Wants in Place of Saddam").

Iraqi women know that the US supports governments guilty of some of the world's worst human rights violations against women (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the early years of Afghanistan under the Taliban).

Remind people that unlike "regime change" in Afghanistan, where the oppression of women was a key public relations point for the Bush Administration, no effort has been made by the US to push for the inclusion of women in a "post-Saddam" Iraq."

http://www.g7welcomingcommittee.com/ideas/

If America is a "Christian State" and we should support "Christians" because George W. Bush is and because this religion is so peaceful then how do you explain the HUGE human rights violations that have come out of America??? Where has there been any appologies? Why have they not knocked on every door of the 27 countries they have bombed???
You can take the bible out of context very easily (especially the old testement) and turn christianity into a religion of war and hate. Just like you can the Quaran (sorry again - spelling).

Mass generalising Muslims is not a very helpful thing to do. Just like Mass generalising Christianity is not a helpful thing to do. If I did Generalise Christianity I would be as far away for it as I could get.

Have I gone totally off the topic????

Laume

Originally posted by laumelilu
Well... First of all GOOD BOY Star Scream,

Vegan - You say you want peace? and that Star Scream doesn't???

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No. THat is not what I said.  i said I want peace and Star Scream wants peace.  Now, am I a good boy too?

Originally posted by laumelilu
If America goes ahead with this Middle east conflict <snip>

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where did this come from?

Originally posted by laumelilu
Have I gone totally off the topic????

Laume

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Yes, you have.

Vegan,

Thanks for that message.. I can see all points I briught up were well considered and thought through.......

and yes that is sarcasism...Dahhh..

When I said that you think you are for peace and startscream wasn't I refer to your quote
"Now, if you truly believe that Muslims in America (whether they be foreign or nationals) who have grown up in Mosques, homes and schools that preach that American foreign policy results in the death of innocent Muslim Children in Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) have America's best interest in mind then you are misguided."

You seem to be saying that Muslims in America are all unpeaceful people. And for standing up for them this in turn is standing up for violence.

As for american foriegn policy resulting in the death of innocent muslim chilkdren... he is not misguided at all.... again READ my last post. i really cant be bothered writing out another one. Over 50% of Iraq are children, it is one of the youngest countries in the world. ZBy bombing and placing sanctions on Iraq and sending in armies etc. children are dying and have been dying for the past 12 years and even beyond that.

As to the relevence of my post to the topic.. i take that back i think its extremely relevent as you are saying that the muslims are a violent religion. Read about christianity/american government which claims to be christian and tell me its promoting a peaceful religion and belief.. Tell me how bombing 27 countries and holding sanctions on them is being peaceful when people are dying?

Yes i know it ois only the government.... but in supporting the government you are an accomplise to the deaths of those people. Like Islam, It is only those as you say that are there leaders that are violent yes? SAME THING... again.. sinners are sinners... you cant say that Islam is a violent and unpeaceful religion because evidence suggests christianity is far far worse...

MNUCH MUCH RELEVANCE... please read my post again.

Laume

A "Christian" nation doesnt kill children; If the U.S. is a Christian theocracy, then I demand the reversal of Vermont's gay-marriage law and the reversal of roe v. wade.

Please check out what Islamic schools are teaching. They teach an opposition to U.S. foreign policy in a way that states our support of Israel results in Palestinian youth's deaths. FUnny, I thought the fact that they attack Israeli soldiers results in their deaths.

THe Immams are leading muslim youth on a road to hell. THeir rhetoric kills more Muslims than U.S. smart bombs.


For the record, I did read your entire post.  Here is my problem with it: no offense, but you are 19 y.o. and a student.  your view of the world is quite different than mine.  it is often easy to be left of center when you are a student.  trust me.  i have been anywhere from a member of the Revolutionary Communist Party to an anarchist.  I have been involved with ARA (anti-racist action), The Young SOcialists, The Wobbleys (Industrial Workers of the World), campus progressive parties, etc. 

Besides, you called most of the people on this board "racists."  pretty harsh words.  I can only assume you are refering to me also (considering the context of your quote; if you didnt mean me i would be more careful of what you say and where you say it; consider who will read it and how it will be taken).

I have nothing personal against you, but as my friend's father said: If you are a conservative before you are 30, you have no heart; if you are liberal after 30, you have no brain.


God Bless America.

OOO right right right right right... so im 19, it means all my information that has been researched is irrelevant? right?

Nice.... now thats an intelligent remark.

The bible prepares me for this. 1 Timothy 4:11
11Command and teach these things. 12Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity. 13Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.

Another thing, yes I am a student... But not of a university where outrageous political views are placed in front of you... I took 2 years off before starting to study... in this time i was not influenced by anyone except for myself, I researched myself with help from no political groups etc. Now I am at a natural therapies college... there are no political groups there, it is too small. I have placed information on notice boards before in regard to rallies and information, everytime i do they always "disapear" off the notice boards. Besides this over 50% of the students at the college are over 45.. so no young extremeists.


"Please check out what Islamic schools are teaching. They teach an opposition to U.S. foreign policy in a way that states our support of Israel results in Palestinian youth's deaths. FUnny, I thought the fact that they attack Israeli soldiers results in their deaths. "

And i agree with them. I believe that Palestine is an oppressed country, being taken over by Israel with 80% of arms supplied by America... Palestine is a young country with much of its population children. As opression has managed to kill all the men and women alredy. Palestiniains and Israeli's have attacked each other. It is not one sided and is very complicated. But if I was to choose to stand up for one country I would stand up for palestine. For it is them that are being oppressed by a world super power and two contries that have "weapons of mass destructiuon" ooooooo i thought countries that had weapons of mass destruction had to be bombed! Isnt that what your media is telling you!?????

Yes racist is the correct word, because many people I have spoken to on this board have said that America and Israel is superior to other countries in the world... tell me another word for this and i will believe you.

Thats it for now from me....

Laume

Originally posted by vegan
1. If you wish to bad-mouth christians, why not go to a non-christian page? Makes perfect sense to me.

2. Muslims do anything BUT condemn muslim terrorism. I have heard some secular arab organizations condemn 9-11, but rarely do i hear muslim leaders... religious leaders, condemn attacks on jews in israel, the anti-american/jewish teachings in madrassas, etc.

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That's probably because you're not very well-read, and prefer to bash muslims than to learn about them.

This is an opportune moment to take vegan's nonsense comment and bury it for good.  The following is just a beginning list of Muslim expressions of grief and outrage at the 9/11 attacks.  It includes individuals, organizations in this country and outside.  It also includes expressions from several governments.

Hint:  anyone interested in a balanced viewpoint might want to archive these.  Misinformed fundamentalist opinions like vegan's seem to pop up faster than crabgrass:

PART ONE OF THREE

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"[T]his is nothing but a manifestation of injustice, oppression and tyranny . . . and it is amongst the greatest of sins." Sheik Abdul-Azeez Aal ash-Sheik, grand mufti of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and head of the Council of Senior Scholars, commenting on the 9-11 attacks.

Qatari Foreign Minister Sheikh Hamad bin Jassem al-Thani told a news conference at the end of the meeting that: "We don't generally support military action but then again we don't support terrorism either and we also have to identify terrorism and see its causes, which is why we asked for it to be discussed...at the United Nations in future."

Saudi Arabia's Foreign Minister Prince Saud al-Faisal told reporters that Muslim states wanted to help "eradicate terrorism ...(which) harms the Islamic world and Islamic causes and had never served the Palestinian cause.

Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh (Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama): "Hijacking Planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood constitute a form of injustice that can not be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts." 2001-SEP-15.

Shiek Mohammed Sayyed al-Tantawi, leader of Egypt's great mosque, Al-Azhar: "[The attacks] will be punished on the day of judgment."

Fatwa, signed by: Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Countil, Qatar; Judge Tariq al-Bishri, First Deputy President of the Council d'etat, Egypt; Dr. Muhammad s. al-Awa, Professor of Islamic Law and Shari'a, Egypt; Dr. Haytham al-Khayyat, Islamic scholar, Syria; Fahmi Houaydi Islamic scholar, Syria; Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, Chairman, North America High Council: "The terrorists acts, considered by Islamic law,... [constitute] the crime of hirabah (waging war against society)." 2001-SEP-27.

Zaki Badawi, Principal of the Muslim College in London: "Neither the law of Islam nor its ethical system justify such a crime." Cited in Arab News, 2001-SEP-28.

Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan: "It is wrong to kill innocent people. It is also wrong to Praise those who kill innocent people." Cited in New York Times, 2001-SEP-28.

Abdullah II, King of Jordan and descendent of the Prophet Muhammad: "What these people stand for is completely against all the principles that Arab Muslims believe in." ; cited in Middle East Times, 2001-SEP-28

The Canadian office of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR CAN) and the Canadian Muslim Civil Liberties Association (CMCLA) issued a joint statement on 2001-OCT-17.

They denounced a series of statements made by Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaeda network that state that Muslims should wage a "jihad" against Americans. They wrote: "Islam respects the sacredness of life, and rejects any express statement or tacit insinuation that Muslims should harm innocent people. Despite our disagreement with certain American policies, we must never abuse the concept of Jihad to target innocent civilians."

"Jihad, which literally means 'struggle,' has an internal, societal and combative dimension. The internal dimension of Jihad encompasses the struggle against the evil inclinations of the self, and the spiritual project to adorn the self with virtues such as justice, mercy, generosity and gentleness. The societal dimension includes struggling against social injustice and creating a communal identity based on charity, respect and equality. Finally, the combative aspect of jihad is only to be used as self-defense against aggression or to fight oppression, and, even then, to be observed with strict limits of conduct that preserves the life of innocents and the sanctity of the environment. Moreover, this latter type of Jihad can only be declared by a legitimate, recognized religious authority."

"Using the concept of Jihad to justify harming the innocent is contrary to the letter and spirit of Islam. We condemn any violence that springs from this misguided interpretation."

Imam Kutty of the Jami Mosque in Toronto, ON Canada:

He told his congregation in 2001-OCT that fanaticism is the enemy of Islam.

"Let us make no mistake about it: Today, Muslims have no enemy greater than fanatics in their midst...Let us know that fanaticism is ignorance; it is nothing but sickness and bigotry; let us know that fanaticism is opposed to both scripture and reason...We Muslims therefore condemn these barbaric attacks against innocent people."

"We condemn them unconditionally; we condemn them because it is opposed to reason and revelation. It is contrary to the fundamental principles of Islam which teach the sanctity of life. Make no mistake about it, We Muslims cannot be Muslims unless we affirm the sanctity of life in all forms."

"Let every Muslim know that there is no room in Islam for fanaticism, for hatred, for racism, for terrorizing innocent people, for indiscriminate killing, even in a state of war."

"Let us Muslims shoulder our responsibility in this crisis facing our society by distancing ourselves from all those who have perpetrated such a heinous and dastardly crime. I appeal to every Muslim to cooperate with the authorities in bringing the culprits to justice. Let no Muslim harbor such criminals in their midst; doing so is violating the laws and values that we cherish dearly in our religion."

Professor Haykel is an assistant professor of Islamic Studies at New York University. He has written many articles on Islamic movements in Yemen and Saudi Arabia.

He joined the CNN.com chat room on 2001-OCT-11 to discuss Osama bin Laden's earlier statement to the Arab world. Some of his points:

"I applaud the fact that the Organization of the Islamic Conference condemned the terrorist attack. It doesn't surprise me, because most Muslims around the world have done so already."

"It is true that the Koran contains verses that are antagonistic to Jews, Christians and non-Muslims. That said, the Koran also has verses that are positive and favorable to Christians and Jews. It is important to know that the Koran cannot be interpreted without the knowledge of the wider body of legal and theological Islamic literature. Verses don't stand on their own without context, and the context is always much more nuanced and sophisticated than the literal meaning of the verse."

"I think it is extremely important for Muslims to realize that the phenomenon of bin Laden is as dangerous to Islam as it is to the West; that unless Muslims themselves ostracize bin Laden and his pernicious interpretation of the Koran and of the prophet's sayings, the Muslim world, as well as the rest of the world, will suffer a tremendous amount of physical and military abuse."

Abdull-Rehman Malick, a high school history teacher, suggested that the future for Muslims in Canada is towards a pluralist, diverse Islam. He said:

"It is to this spirit we as a community have to return. What Osama bin Laden has done is to turn our prophet [Muhammad] to hate when he came as a prophet of love...I am a Canadian Muslim. That is becoming more obvious to me as I see the reaction of my extreme co-religionists abroad, and the reaction of my community at home."

Jsamin Zine, an education and sociology graduate student, said:

"There needs to be reflection on whether the values of social justice, peace, equity are represented in our homes, in our mosques, in our community."

Shabir Ally, president of the Islamic Information Centre and a TV host explained how the Qur'an is interpreted by bin Laden and the Taliban. They follow a literal translation of the 7th century CE text that was written in the middle of tribal warfare. "He's using an interpretation of the Qur'an that has not kept up with our changing times. It's like taking a battle cry and shouting it at a hockey game."

Saleha Kahn, coordinator of the Canadian Association for Islamic Relations said: "I feel very distressed. I'm unable to sleep at night. I'm losing weight -- which is good. [But] I'm unable to enjoy life." She referred to her son's first name: Osama. "It is a beautiful name in the Muslim religion." Osama was a contemporary of the prophet Muhammad. "Now it is equated with terrorism." A few hours after the terrorist attack, she told her son to expect a backlash in the schoolyard because of his name. Her prediction came to pass.

Statement from scholars of the Islamic religion 2001-SEP-17

We are grief-stricken at the horrifying events of this past week. Yet as scholars of the Islamic religion, we must take time from our grief, and the counseling of our students, to help prevent the continuing persecution of Muslims on American soil. The attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center are nothing short of murder. Those office workers did nothing wrong, nothing to deserve such a terrible fate, and the murder of innocents can never be justified and must not be tolerated. Anger and frustration at the death of these men and women are completely understandable and shared by us all, yet that anger must not be directed at individuals utterly innocent of these terrible crimes...

...the Qur'an commands all Muslims "If they incline toward peace, then you should too!"

Suicide is utterly forbidden in Islam, and war must be declared by the State, not by individuals. These injunctions explain clear statements by the governments of Syria, Saudi Arabia and Libya denouncing Tuesday's attacks.

Radical groups like Hamas have also denounced it, along with the Palestinian leadership. Such political statements must be taken seriously as they are backed up by all major religious authorities, from the Rector of al-Azhar University to the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, who forbid suicide missions, especially terrorist attacks against civilians...

...Just as most would regard bombers of abortion clinics to be outside the pale of Christianity, so the actions of these terrorists should not be accepted as representing Islam in any way.

As Tuesday's events gradually shift into the past, the horror of what has occurred becomes even clearer. Many of us have been hit personally by these attacks; we grieve, we cry and we search for answers. Let us now join together as Americans and respond to this act of hatred with compassion and understanding, reaching out to our Muslim neighbors and stopping the cycle of violence

 

Originally posted by vegan

2. Muslims do anything BUT condemn muslim terrorism.

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PART TWO OF THREE

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Islamic Statements Against Terrorism in the Wake of the September 11 Mass Murders

Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:

"The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur'an: 'No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another' (Surah al-Isra 17:15)."

MSANews, September 14, 2001, http://msanews.mynet.net/MSANEWS/20...0010917.15.html; Arabic original in al-Quds al-Arabi (London), September 14, 2001, p. 2, http://www.alquds.co.uk/Alquds/2001...0Fri/Quds02.pdf

Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi, Qatar; Tariq Bishri, Egypt; Muhammad S. Awwa, Egypt; Fahmi Huwaydi, Egypt; Haytham Khayyat, Syria; Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, U.S.:

"All Muslims ought to be united against all those who terrorize the innocents, and those who permit the killing of non-combatants without a justifiable reason. Islam has declared the spilling of blood and the destruction of property as absolute prohibitions until the Day of Judgment. ... [It is] necessary to apprehend the true perpetrators of these crimes, as well as those who aid and abet them through incitement, financing or other support. They must be brought to justice in an impartial court of law and [punished] appropriately. ... [It is] a duty of Muslims to participate in this effort with all possible means."

The Washington Post, October 11, 2001, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2001Oct10.html Full text of this fatwa in English and Arabic.

Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt:

"Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. ... It's not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack." Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

Abdel-Mo'tei Bayyoumi, al-Azhar Islamic Research Academy, Cairo, Egypt: "There is no terrorism or a threat to civilians in jihad [religious struggle]." Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 20 - 26 September 2001, http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/p4fall3.htm

Muslim Brotherhood, an opposition Islamist group in Egypt, said it was "horrified" by the attack and expressed "condolences and sadness":

"[We] strongly condemn such activities that are against all humanist and Islamic morals. ... [We] condemn and oppose all aggression on human life, freedom and dignity anywhere in the world." Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 13 - 19 September 2001, http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/551/fo2.htm

Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, spiritual guide of Shi'i Muslim radicals in Lebanon, said he was "horrified" by these "barbaric ... crimes":

"Beside the fact that they are forbidden by Islam, these acts do not serve those who carried them out but their victims, who will reap the sympathy of the whole world. ... Islamists who live according to the human values of Islam could not commit such crimes." Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

'Abdulaziz bin 'Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:

"Firstly: the recent developments in the United States including hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts.

Secondly: any Muslim who is aware of the teachings of his religion and who adheres to the directives of the Holy Qur'an and the sunnah (the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad) will never involve himself in such acts, because they will invoke the anger of God Almighty and lead to harm and corruption on earth." http://saudiembassy.net/press_relea...09-15-Islam.htm

Shaykh Muhammad bin 'Abdallah al-Sabil, member of the Council of Senior Religious Scholars, Saudi Arabia:

"Any attack on innocent people is unlawful and contrary to shari'a (Islamic law). ... Muslims must safeguard the lives, honor and property of Christians and Jews. Attacking them contradicts shari'a." Agence France Presse, December 4, 2001

Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, a prominent religious scholar in Qatar:

"Our hearts bleed for the attacks that has targeted the World Trade Center [WTC], as well as other institutions in the United States despite our strong oppositions to the American biased policy towards Israel on the military, political and economic fronts. Islam, the religion of tolerance, holds the human soul in high esteem, and considers the attack against innocent human beings a grave sin, this is backed by the Qur'anic verse which reads:

'Who so ever kills a human being [as punishment] for [crimes] other than manslaughter or [sowing] corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and who so ever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind' (Al-Ma'idah:32)." http://www.islamonline.net/English/...article25.shtml See also Qaradawi's web-site: www.qaradawi.net

Ayatollah Ali Khamene'i, supreme jurist-ruler of Iran:

"Killing of people, in any place and with any kind of weapons, including atomic bombs, long-range missiles, biological or chemical weopons, passenger or war planes, carried out by any organization, country or individuals is condemned. ... It makes no difference whether such massacres happen in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Qana, Sabra, Shatila, Deir Yassin, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq or in New York and Washington." Islamic Republic News Agency, September 16, 2001, ttp://www.irna.com/en/hphoto/010916000000.ehp.shtml

President Muhammad Khatami of Iran:

"The horrific terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, in the United States were perpetrated by cult of fanatics who had self-mutilated their ears and tongues, and could only communicate with perceived opponents through carnage and devastation." Address to the United Nations General Assembly, November 9, 2001, reported in The New York Times, November 10, 2001, http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/10/i...nal/10KHAT.html

League of Arab States:

"The General-Secretariat of the League of Arab States shares with the people and government of the United States of America the feelings of revulsion, horror and shock over the terrorist attacks that ripped through the World Trade Centre and Pentagon, inflicting heavy damage and killing and wounding thousands of many nationalities.

These terrorist crimes have been viewed by the League as inadmissible and deserving all condemnation. Divergence of views between the Arabs and the United States over the latter's foreign policy on the Middle East crisis does in no way adversely affect the common Arab attitude of compassion with the people and government of the United States at such moments of facing the menace and ruthlessness of international terrorism.

In more than one statement released since the horrendous attacks, the League has also expressed deep sympathy with the families of the victims. In remarks to newsmen immediately following the tragic events, Arab League Secretary-General Amre Moussa described the feelings of the Arab world as demonstrably sympathetic with the American people, particularly with families and individuals who lost their loved ones.

"It is indeed tormenting that any country or people or city anywhere in the world be the scene of such disastrous attacks," he added. While convinced that it is both inconceivable and lamentable that such a large-scale, organised terrorist campaign take place anywhere, anytime, the League believes that the dreadful attacks against WTC and the Pentagon unveil, time and again, that the cancer of terrorism can be extensively damaging if left unchecked.

It follows that there is a pressing and urgent need to combat world terrorism. In this context, an earlier call by [Egyptian] President Hosni Mubarak for convening an international conference to draw up universal accord on ways and means to eradicate this phenomenon and demonstrate international solidarity is worthy of active consideration.

The Arabs have walked a large distancein the fight against cross-border terrorism by concluding in April 1998 the Arab Agreement on Combating Terrorism." September 17, 2001, http://www.leagueofarabstates.org/E...es_17_09_01.asp

Dr. Abdelouahed Belkeziz, Secretary-General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference:

"Following the bloody attacks against major buildings and installations in the United States yesterday, Tuesday, September 11, 2001, Dr. Abdelouahed Belkeziz, secretary-general of the 57-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), stated that he was shocked and deeply saddened when he heard of those attacks which led to the death and injury of a very large number of innocent American citizens.

Dr. Belkeziz said he was denouncing and condemning those criminal and brutal acts that ran counter to all covenants, humanitarian values and divine religions foremost among which was Islam." Press Release, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, September 12, 2001, http://www.oic-oci.org/press/englis...on%20attack.htm

Organization of the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers:

"The Conference strongly condemned the brutal terror acts that befell the United States, caused huge losses in human lives from various nationalities and wreaked tremendous destruction and damage in New York and Washington. It further reaffirmed that these terror acts ran counter to the teachings of the divine religions as well as ethical and human values, stressed the necessity of tracking down the perpetrators of these acts in the light of the results of investigations and bringing them to justice to inflict on them the penalty they deserve, and underscored its support of this effort.

In this respect, the Conference expressed its condolences to and sympathy with the people and government of the United States and the families of the victims in these mournful and tragic circumstances."

Final Communique of the Ninth Extraordinary Session of the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers, October 10, 2001, http://www.oic-oci.org/english/fm/A...load/frmex9.htm

Originally posted by vegan


2. Muslims do anything BUT condemn muslim terrorism.

Click to expand...

PART THREE OF THREE

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Mehmet Nuri Yilmaz, Head of the Directorate of Religious Affairs of Turkey:

"Any human being, regardless of his ethnic and religious origin, will never think of carrying out such a violent, evil attack. Whatever its purpose is, this action cannot be justified and tolerated." Mehmet Nuri Yilmaz, "A Message on Ragaib Night and Terrorism," September 21, 2001, http://www.diyanet.gov.tr/duyurular/regaibing.htm

Harun Yahya (Adnan Oktar), Turkish author:

"Islam does not encourage any kind of terrorism; in fact, it denounces it. Those who use terrorism in the name of Islam, in fact, have no other faculty except ignorance and hatred." Harun Yahya, "Islam Denounces Terrorism," http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com

Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi, Pakistani-American Muslim leader:

"The sudden barbaric attack on innocent citizens living in peace is extremely distressing and deplorable. Every gentle human heart goes out to the victims of this attack and as humans we are ashamed at the barbarism perpetrated by a few people.

Islam, which is a religion of peace and tolerance, condemns this act and sees this is as a wounding scar on the face of humanity. I appeal to Muslims to strongly condemn this act, express unity with the victims' relatives, donate blood, money and do whatever it takes to help the affected people." "Messages From Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi," http://www.icna.org/wtc_islahi.htm

Abdal-Hakim Murad, British Muslim author:

"Targeting civilians is a negation of every possible school of Sunni Islam. Suicide bombing is so foreign to the Quranic ethos that the Prophet Samson is entirely absent from our scriptures."

"The Hijackers Were Not Muslims After All: Recapturing Islam From the Terrorists," http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/masud/...recapturing.htm

Syed Mumtaz Ali, President of the Canadian Society of Muslims:

"We condemn in the strongest terms possible what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Canadians in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts." Canadian Society of Muslims, Media Release, September 12, 2001, http://muslim-canada.org/news09112001.html

15 American Muslim organizations:

"We reiterate our unequivocal condemnation of the crime committed on September 11, 2001 and join our fellow Americans in mourning the loss of up to 6000 innocent civilians."

Muslim American Society (MAS), Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), Muslim Alliance of North America (MANA), Muslim Student Association (MSA), Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), United Association for Studies and Research (UASR), Solidarity International, American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (AMGPJ), American Muslim Alliance (AMA), United Muslim Americans Association (UMAA), Islamic Media Foundation (IMF), American Muslim Foundation (AMF), Coordinating Council of Muslim Organizations (CCMO), American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ), Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA), October 22, 2001, http://www.icna.org/wtc_pr.htm

American Muslim Political Coordination Council:

"American Muslims utterly condemn what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts." http://capwiz.com/cair/issues/alert...8&type=CU&azip=

Dr. Agha Saeed, National Chair of the American Muslim Alliance:

"These attacks are against both divine and human laws and we condemn them in the strongest terms. The Muslim Americans join the nation in calling for swift apprehension and stiff punishment of the perpetrators, and offer our sympathies to the victims and their families." http://www.amaweb.org/AMA%20Condemns.html

Hamza Yusuf, American Muslim leader:

"Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people [who committed murder on September 11] indeed are Arabs, Muslims, they're obviously very sick people and I can't even look at it in religious terms. It's politics, tragic politics.

There's no Islamic justification for any of it. ... You can't kill innocent people. There's no Islamic declaration of war against the United States. I think every Muslim country except Afghanistan has an embassy in this country.

And in Islam, a country where you have embassies is not considered a belligerent country. In Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battlefields and engage nobly. The Prophet Muhammad said,

``Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,'' and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, ``Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.''

The Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet, say that no one can punish with fire except the lord of fire. It's prohibited to burn anyone in Islam as a punishment. No one can grant these attackers any legitimacy. It was evil."

San Jose Mercury News, September 15, 2001, http://www0.mercurycenter.com/local/center/isl0916.htm

Nuh Ha Mim Keller, American Muslim author:

"Muslims have nothing to be ashamed of, and nothing to hide, and should simply tell people what their scholars and religious leaders have always said: first, that the Wahhabi sect has nothing to do with orthodox Islam, for its lack of tolerance is a perversion of traditional values; and second, that killing civilians is wrong and immoral."

"Making the World Safe for Terrorism," September 30, 2001, http://66.34.131.5/ISLAM/nuh/terrorism.htm

Muslims Against Terrorism, a U.S.-based organization:

"As Muslims, we condemn terrorism in all its forms and manifestations. Ours is a religion of peace. We are sick and tired of extremists dictating the public face of Islam." http://www.muslimsagainstterrorism.org/aboutus.html

Abdulaziz Sachedina, professor of religious studies, University of Virginia:

"New York was grieving. Sorrow covered the horizons. The pain of separation and of missing family members, neighbors, citizens, humans could be felt in every corner of the country. That day was my personal day of "jihad" ("struggle") - jihad with my pride and my identity as a Muslim. This is the true meaning of jihad - "struggle with one's own ego and false pride." I don't ever recall that I had prayed so earnestly to God to spare attribution of such madness that was unleashed upon New York and Washington to the Muslims. I felt the pain and, perhaps for the first time in my entire life, I felt embarrassed at the thought that it could very well be my fellow Muslims who had committed this horrendous act of terrorism. How could these terrorists invoke God's mercifulness and compassion when they had, through their evil act, put to shame the entire history of this great religion and its culture of toleration?"