What do you make of this story?

Redguard · Dec 5, 2008

I'm posting this because I've been questioning my position on prayer for a while now. My thoughts have been that God's will triumphs, regardless of how or what you pray for.

Anyway, read this story and tell me your thoughts. It's marriage related, so it qualifies.

Source: http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_29826.aspx

It was to be the marriage proposal of a lifetime, a question popped in the most romantic movie-like setting imaginable.

But it ended in a way that will forever haunt a would-be groom.

When Scott Napper decided to propose to 22-year-old Leafil Alforque, he wanted it to be perfect. So on Monday, he took his beloved up to a place called Proposal Rock near Neskowin Beach, Oregon, several hundred kilometres from Portland.

Everything seemed perfect for the pair. They'd met online in 2005 and she'd just arrived from the Philippines three days before, after waiting to get a visa to come to the U.S.

They climbed to the elevated spot and he was about to take out a ring and ask for her hand.

And then fate stepped in.

A huge wave about three feet high suddenly swept in from nowhere and headed straight for them. Napper heard the roar and tried to grab Alforque, but it was too late.

The 4'11", 93-pound woman was caught in the rush of swollen water and was swept away, virtually out of the arms of her future husband.

The 45-year-old jumped in after her, but watched helplessly as she disappeared into the lake. His efforts to rescue her were dashed when she sank beneath the waves.

"She was about nine metres away, getting swept away," he recalls, with tears in his eyes. "That's the last I saw of her."

Rescue crews arrived quickly and dove into the surf, looking for any sign of the missing woman. They still haven't found her and bad weather and darkness forced their efforts to a halt.

Alforque's devastated family doesn't blame Napper for the tragedy but hopes her body can be recovered so she can receive a proper burial. Her sister says her mother is inconsolable.

"My mother is always crying, day and night," reveals Nova Alforque, back in the Philippines. "She wants my sister back. Even if she is dead, she wants her body to bury."

It's something she shares with the man who would have been her son-in-law.

"I yelled for her," Napper remembers. "I was praying to God."

But his prayers weren't answered.

Police probing the death say they don't suspect any foul play and believe it's simply a case of bad timing and almost unbelievable bad luck.

snoochface · Dec 5, 2008

I can see both sides -- ultimately, God's will does override pretty much everything, regardless of what we pray for.

It bothers me a little when I hear, like in that article, that someone prayed but God didn't answer. I think that's crap, really. God does answer, but he's not a magic slot machine where prayers go in and wishes come out. It's become cliche now, but it really is true that sometimes God's answer is just simply "No", or maybe it's "Not now." But just because his answer isn't "Yes" doesn't mean he didn't answer.

But, I believe the Bible when it says that we don't have because we don't ask. That pretty much tells me that we have to ask.

James 4:2
You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God.

I think there are going to be times when God's will is set. A wave is going to come wash out your girlfriend right before you ask her to marry you, sorry, but this is the plan and it can't be changed. But I think there must be plenty of times where God's will is flexible enough to consider our prayers.

And I've seen personally in my life where there have been plenty of times when I was going to the same end result, but my path to that result changed I believe based on my prayers. Like, we're going to move to California. Going to happen, not going to change, but what path are we going to take getting there? Am I going to fight it and try to wrest control away from God and do everything on my own terms? I'll still get to California, but it's not going to be a whole lot of fun getting here. Or am I going to finally say, "Sorry God, you handle this, your way is better than mine" and let him take over? I'll still get to California, but all of a sudden it's going to be a much easier road getting here.

LoisGriffin · Dec 5, 2008

That is bad luck. I am always a cynic but if the police believe it was one of those things then maybe it was.

I do hope they find the body so they can give her a burial and get closure.

Its hard sometimes to understand why things happen especially freak accidents.

Redguard · Dec 5, 2008

See now, if I were that guy... I would be scrubbing through my recent actions to find out what it is that I did to deserve this.

Given the way everything in that story took place, it seems as though it was very deliberate and that a message was trying to be sent to this guy. Because if it was God's will for this girl to die, why was she not just killed before leaving the Phillipines? Or if it was God's will for this guy not to marry this girl, why could there not have been another way to deal with that?

I really don't want to get into trouble for questioning God. The source of questions like this truly come from other events that I've either witnessed or read about; events where the necessity of the situation escape me, no matter how broad I am in my efforts to rationalize it.

Again though.. having her swept away by a wave in the middle of a marriage proposal just seems like a message being sent.

JulySheMustFly · Dec 5, 2008

I agree for the most part with Snooch. Something else we have to remember is we don't see how our lives work with each others. So, while it may seem our prayers are not answered. We received an answer and the action that did happen very well could have been the action that was needed to set another set of actions into play to make something else happen. Yes, God can do anything but often he uses people and our messed up circumstances to bring around His will which very well could be someone else's answer to prayer.

LovesToRead · Dec 5, 2008

I'm in the midst of an ongoing conversation with an irl friend over this very question.

The Bible teaches us we should pray. Prayer is for our benefit...God wants that as part of His relationship with us. And yet, so often we neglect it, rather than turning to it first.

We live in a fallen world, and bad happens as part of that world. That wasn't His original intention, but He allowed us that measure of free will. Somethings are at our own hands. If I stand in front of that oncoming train and ask God to bring it to a stop...well, that's not how He operates.

I've seen a lot of twists and turns in my life...things that surely should have gone another way...but they didn't. A lot of it is a mystery, really. But God wants us talking to Him so we can know Him better and know His will.

We can ask why about a lot of things...and God can handle all of our questions. But He still wants us talking to Him and not just giving up.

Some things we will just never know in this life. Some things we will see the answer to, if not right away, then eventually. It's just not easy, but that's where our trust comes in.

drpepper101 · Dec 5, 2008

We all have to go some time, whether it's a car wreck, the slow effects of time, or a big unexpected wave. Prayer in the Judeo-Christian since has nothing to do with getting what you want. It's long been understood that while we do pray for certain things the reality of prayer is making yourself a better person and able to deal with the things that happen in life. It's not to be understood in a pagan since as some sort of barter between man and the correct god for the business at hand.

JustBeachy · Dec 6, 2008

JulySheMustFly said:
I agree for the most part with Snooch. Something else we have to remember is we don't see how our lives work with each others. So, while it may seem our prayers are not answered. We received an answer and the action that did happen very well could have been the action that was needed to set another set of actions into play to make something else happen. Yes, God can do anything but often he uses people and our messed up circumstances to bring around His will which very well could be someone else's answer to prayer.

That was what I thought as well, and I also agree with Snooch.

If you're interested, Red, here's a more detailed version of that story:
http://www.katu.com/news/specialreports/35519369.html
It occurred about 20 minutes north of my town.

It is tragic that their two-year courtship culminated in her death.

invisiblebabe · Dec 6, 2008

See, I always say that proposals are silly... but this story proves that proposals are not only silly, but evil!

Seriously though I feel really bad for the guy, although it is strange to me why a 45-year-old man would want to marry a 22-year-old woman....

moonkitty · Dec 7, 2008

I read that stroy recently. Oh my gosh, but that is one of the saddest things I have read in a long time. Of course, I do not know the man and woman, but I really doubt either of them had ever done anything in thier lives that that they would deserve such a thing.

We all want answers for such things. But none of us were ever given the guarantee that we would go through life getting answers. I really, and truly believe that sometiems there are just no answers to some questions.

I hope that man and the womans' family and love ones will find peace.

JulySheMustFly · Dec 7, 2008

I would be scrubbing through my recent actions to find out what it is that I did to deserve this.

I really doubt either of them had ever done anything in thier lives that that they would deserve such a thing.

I see this word come up often in conversations like these and I'm always left wondering where/why we get the idea that we deserve anything that happens to us.

Red, if you'd like that to spin off just let me know. I don't want to take your OP too far off topic.

Caffeinated · Dec 7, 2008

moonkitty said:
We all want answers for such things. But none of us were ever given the guarantee that we would go through life getting answers. I really, and truly believe that sometiems there are just no answers to some questions.

I agree.

Adamantium · Dec 7, 2008

invisiblebabe said:
Seriously though I feel really bad for the guy, although it is strange to me why a 45-year-old man would want to marry a 22-year-old woman....

Please do not go there.

--52 year old woman married to a 34 year old man

Redguard, I don't have an answer for you. Sometimes things happen for no reason, I guess. Or, no reason that we can comprehend, at least.

Redguard · Dec 7, 2008

JulySheMustFly said:
I see this word come up often in conversations like these and I'm always left wondering where/why we get the idea that we deserve anything that happens to us.

Red, if you'd like that to spin off just let me know. I don't want to take your OP too far off topic.

No, it's okay. I don't think the discussion would go off topic. I didn't really plan for the discussion to go in any particular direction.

When I read the story, there were two thoughts that came to mind. The first was "Prayer", and the other was "Just Deserts".

As for prayer, my thought was that it doesn't matter what we pray for because it's up to God in the end anyway. For instance, my relative may be deathly ill and I can come here asking you guys for prayer... but if it's God will that my relative has to die tomorrow, then the prayers are null and void. I know this isn't exactly how we should view prayer, but this is just a sinful human thought that runs through my head. I once expressed it during a Small Group meeting at my house and I was branded a heretic.

As for Just Deserts (which you highlighted in one of my quotes), it's just another one of those regrettable human thoughts. Something bad happens in our life and we ask what we did to deserve it. It's correct that things aren't always deserved. But one might think that people can be removed from our lives in more painful ways than others.

I did a course this past year for which I wrote an exam this past October. I made friends with a girl in the class who was a very devout Christian.

Recently, her husband had left her and she had to put her house up for rent and move in with her neighbour so as not to forclose on the mortgage. We studied together and even prayed together before the exam. I passed, but she failed. (What sucks about this is that she has to wait another 6 months for a rewrite and shell out an extra $400).

In speaking to her afterwards, she said that she spent a week in bed crying and asking God what she was doing to deserve all of this punishment. In a way, we can look at situations like this and remember Lot, or other figures from the Bible who had to endure suffering.

After her week of mourning, she said that she'd realized that it wasn't appropriate to question the matter of deserts with God, but it was also difficult to understand why she, as a Christian, had to endure the things that she was being put through.

So I'm saying all of this to really say that the post isn't one where I'm in search of an answer (thanks to those of you who apologized for not having one ^_^

), but rather to just discuss the matter of why things happen in our lives in certain ways.

snoochface · Dec 7, 2008

Red, your last post reminded me of verses I just read sometime in the last week, about how we are God's children, and just like our father's disciplined us God sometimes disciplines us too. The verses go on to say that we respected our fathers for their discipline, even though it doesn't feel good at the time, but that it is for our good. God's discipline is for our good too. (I'll look up the verses but for now I'm paraphrasing, sorry.)

I don't think we always understand why we are being disciplined, but I also don't think it's always because we have done something wrong, or are in need of some kind of correction. Sometimes it's just for the purpose of discipline in the other sense of the word -- the character building, resilient, enduring kind of discipline, where we need to learn something for some reason and so God is teaching us. But his teaching isn't always a whole lot of fun for us.

I often find myself praying that God teach me gently. I tell him I want to learn his lessons, but if he could please go about it in as gentle and painless way as possible, I'd really appreciate it. I don't know how he takes that, heh, but I don't think it hurts to ask.

snoochface · Dec 7, 2008

Here it is. Hebrews 12:

7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

drpepper101 · Dec 8, 2008

Every year in the early summer when the high schools were graduating their classes I'd end up responding to a couple of calls where freshly graduated students had been involved in a car crash. Often alcohol and speed were involved and there'd be a couple of dead kids in the car. I distinctly remember one year when the guy from the meat wagon was loading a body, this kid was dead in the sort of way that the paramedics don't even bother going through the motions, and commented that the timing was such a shame. Couldn't help but wonder why we put so much importance on the timing of things, would this kid's death have been any better if he'd been killed a week earlier? In the case at hand, would this have been any better if they were just out for a day at the beach and she drown?
The human tendency to view occurances of concidence as omens is a powerful pyschological drive. Finding paterns where there is only the random give us feelings of control, if we can detect something we can change our behaviors accordingly. When we can't it just leaves us with a big unknown, the scariest thing of all.

moonkitty · Dec 8, 2008

Personally, yes, I think this would have been just as sad if they had just went down for a stroll on the beach. They were in love, and she was so young--she barely had time to really live her life.

To me it's always harder to accept death when it's the young because they have not had that chance to grow, and develop and have a life. My father in law passed away last sunday. It was sad, and my poor mother in law is having a rough time of it. But he was 68, and lived a full life, so in a small way it is eaiser to let go then when they are so young.

felinity · Dec 8, 2008

This kind of story resonates with me because the couple in question went through the same visa process my husband and I did. The visa itself requires lots of bureaucracy and waiting. You have to convince the government that your intentions are noble, you have to have background checks, you have to provide proof of your relationships, and so forth. There's so much hope and uncertainty tied up in the process, and unless you've been through it, I think it would be hard to understand how you'd feel when your spouse (to-be) finally winds up in your arms.

And then to lose her a few weeks later? Oh my goodness, I can't even imagine how horrible that would be. I hug my husband tight every day, because I still remember, 2 1/2 years on, how it was not to be able to hug him, and I can't stand the thought of a future without his hugs.

Rebekka · Dec 8, 2008

JulySheMustFly said:
I see this word come up often in conversations like these and I'm always left wondering where/why we get the idea that we deserve anything that happens to us.

Yes. When someone says "Person X didn't deserve Y to happen to him," it is implied that person A deserved B to happen to him. I don't think we get what we deserve in this life. Things happen. I don't know why. I don't see life as a game or a race where the one who has the most good luck or the best results (number of friends or depth of friendships; career; money; number of children; good health, etc) is the winner. Death comes unexpectedly - or sometimes it comes expectedly - but living longer doesn't mean anything from an ethical point of view. Life is hard and it often sucks. And I don't know why anything on this world happens.

Sometimes my answers seem to be answered, sometimes I don't think they were answered, but I do think God hears me always.

If my fiancé had died like that I would probably have lost my faith - but if you believe God has a plan, this would have been part of that, too. Also, what is lost may be found again later.

snoochface said:
I don't think we always understand why we are being disciplined, but I also don't think it's always because we have done something wrong, or are in need of some kind of correction. Sometimes it's just for the purpose of discipline in the other sense of the word -- the character building, resilient, enduring kind of discipline, where we need to learn something for some reason and so God is teaching us. But his teaching isn't always a whole lot of fun for us.

That's my opinion, too.
His teaching isn't always fun for us, and I don't think it offends God if we let it show that we don't understand him, or that we are even angry because of what happens to us. He knows it anyway.

I don't think it's wrong to ask God to be gentle with us. The bible tells us to ask for things we want.

What do you make of this story?

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