Should I eat breakfast or not?

Byfaithalone1

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Some of the laws were given specifically to the priesthood, these were primarily in regards to the rites carried out in the Temple. The priesthood no longer exists and the Temple no longer exists. Some of the laws were given specifically to the civil authorites of ancient Israel, a regime that no longer exists. As a general rule though, the laws given to people of Israel are applicable to us today.

Can you explain why you believe it is possible for some jots and tittles to pass while others remain?

Can certain jots and tittles pass before all is accomplished?

If someone is offended by my decision not to eat the burrito, even after I have clearly explained the reason for my choice, then I can only conclude that they are offended by my faith. I can't help those who are offended by my faith unless they are willing to change their attitude.

Personally, I believe it is offensive when Christians conduct themselves in a matter that communicates that the greatest commandment is something other than love.

BFA
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Byfaithalone1 said:
Can you explain why you believe it is possible for some jots and tittles to pass while others remain?

I don't.

Byfaithalone1 said:
Can certain jots and tittles pass before all is accomplished?

No.

Byfaithalone1 said:
Personally, I believe it is offensive when Christians conduct themselves in a matter that communicates that the greatest commandment is something other than love.

Exactly how is not eating pork inimical to love?
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Then can you explain why we should believe that some laws have passed while others remain?

Exactly how is not eating pork inimical to love?

I believe that 1 Corinthians 10:27 contains an important principle, one that extends beyond the subject of meat offered to idols. That principle is set out in Verses 32-33:
"Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God; just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved."
In contrast to the above statement from Paul, I've noticed that it is your opinion that "I can't help those who are offended by my faith unless they are willing to change their attitude."

I've noticed something quite interesting as I've reviewed responses to the original post in this thread. It seems clear that there are some who choose to abstain from eating certain foods for "religious reasons." This begs the following question:
Q: Among those SDAs who abstain from eating certain foods, do they do so for "religious reasons," "health reasons" or for a combination of reasons? If the ceremonial law has passed away, what are the "religious reasons" for abstaining from pork, seafood and other similar products?
BFA
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Byfaithalone1 said:
Then can you explain why we should believe that some laws have passed while others remain?

You shouldn't. The question was whether there were any laws that didn't apply to us today, and I responded that there were some laws that were only given to a certain segment of God's people in the first place (the priesthood or the judges). It's not that they "passed".

Byfaithalone1 said:
I believe that 1 Corinthians 10:27 contains an important principle, one that extends beyond the subject of meat offered to idols. That principle is set out in Verses 32-33:
"Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God; just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved."
In contrast to the above statement from Paul, I've noticed that it is your opinion that "I can't help those who are offended by my faith unless they are willing to change their attitude."

If someone is offended by my faith the only thing that can be done about it for me to compromise my faith or for them to change their attitude. The former is out of the question; I doubt that you would compromise your faith just because somebody was offended by it. As for your Scriptural quotation, Paul's preaching offended many people. He was ultimately martyred for his faith because some people were offended by it. Paul was not talking about offending people by acts done in faith, otherwise he would be a hypocrite. He was talking about personal habits that are neither commanded nor forbidden by Scripture.

Byfaithalone1 said:
I've noticed something quite interesting as I've reviewed responses to the original post in this thread. It seems clear that there are some who choose to abstain from eating certain foods for "religious reasons." This begs the following question:
Q: Among those SDAs who abstain from eating certain foods, do they do so for "religious reasons," "health reasons" or for a combination of reasons? If the ceremonial law has passed away, what are the "religious reasons" for abstaining from pork, seafood and other similar products?

I can't speak for SDA's, but personally, by reason forabstaining from unclean meats is as follows:

God created our bodies. God created all the creatures of the earth. God knew what he was talking about when he told us that certain animals were not to be food for us. I have difficulty believing that one day he just said "I'm bored. Hey, I know what I'll do! I'll tell the children of Israel not to these certain species of animals just to see if they'll really do it!" I think God really had our best interests at heart when he gave us the dietary laws. Contrary to what you seem to be suggesting, I believe that the dietary laws, like the rest of the Law, were given in love. If he had created pigs and non-piscene sea creatures for human consumption, there would be no reason for Him to forbid them in Scripture. I don't really see a reason to make a distinction between "religious" and "health" reasons for abstaining from unclean meats. Also, I don't recall saying "the ceremonial law has passed away", I don't find the distinction between the "moral law" and the "ceremonial law" to be a useful one.
 
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StormyOne

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when did this directive end?
Gen 9:2-4 The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. (3) Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. (4) But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

After the flood, God told Noah and his family that everything that moved, they could eat.... when did that end?
 
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seangoh

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So you would anticipate that a host would be more concerned with your individual needs than the needs of the rest of his household? Is this a reasonable expectation?

When responding to the situations of life, which is more important:
(1) Love

-OR-

(2) Dietary laws?
Among God's commands, which is greatest?

BFA

BFA, you're missing my point. If the host was my friend, he/she would know my dietary habits so them knowing isn't the issue. If he somehow forgets it and whips out pork for breakfast, i'll just remind him again and he will be fine with it. Perhaps others in the group will eat it. It's not an issue about whether i'm showing love or not when accepting something to eat.

And my choice of food draws from the distinction that was made long before God told moses about clean/unclean meats. The first occurence of it was when God told Noah to bring 7 pairs of clean beast/fowls and 2 pairs of unclean beast/fowls. Gen 7:2-3. This was long before the ceremonial laws that some of you have been talking about.Thus the clean/unclean distinction existed already. I can't speak for SDAs, but to me, my body is a temple of God and it would make logical sense that not all things are fit for eating and fit for our bodies. Eating in moderation doesn't even apply here coz in my view, you can say that some animals are more harmful than others to our bodies. (or some are more poison than others). You wouldn't eat poison in moderation right?
 
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seangoh

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God told Noah after the flood that everything that moved was suitable for food....

Hi there. Good point there. Gen 9:3 does seem to say that all moving things are to be food for you. However, if we were to read this as is, then we would have big problems about continuity. You can draw out a timeline of all texts which unequivocally talk about clean/unclean animals and you would end up briefly with something like this:

=============
Gen 7:2-3 - God commands Noah to bring 7 clean pairs of beast/fowl and 2 pairs of unclean beast/fowl.

Leviticus 11,Deuteronomy 14 - Clean/Unclean distinction is re-emphasized.

Isaiah 65:4;and 66:17 - "who eat the flesh of pigs, and whose pots hold broth of unclean meat"...."those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things—they will meet their end together,”"

Acts 10:9-22. Peter's vision where he said "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.".

Revelation 18:2 - "She has become a home for demons and a haunt for every evil spirit, a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird." While this text obviously is not talking about literal birds, the unclean birds that are mentioned here to provide this image obviously are those that are categorized as such in Leviticus 11. At the very least one can say that still at the end of the first century Christians were quite aware of the distinction between clean and unclean meat, regardless of how observant or nonobservant they may have been.
=======================

God, Noah. Peter, John clearly knew that those distinctions.
Back to Gen 9:3. This permission did not imply an unrestrained and unlimited eating of every kind of animal. The phrase, “moving thing that liveth,” clearly excludes the eating of carcasses of animals that had died or been killed by other beasts, which the Mosaic law later specifically forbade (Ex. 22:31; Lev. 22:8). This distinction must have been known to early man so well that it was not necessary for God to draw Noah’s special attention to it. It was only when this distinction had been lost through the centuries of man’s estrangement from God that new and written directives were issued regarding clean and unclean animals (see Lev. 11; Deut. 14).

If indeed after the flood, God had allowed man to eat anything that moves, then why did Peter and John in the NT still kept these distinctions so strongly even after Jesus had ascended to heaven? Hadn't they read Gen 9:3? Or did they understood then what God really meant?
 
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Byfaithalone1

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I responded that there were some laws that were only given to a certain segment of God's people in the first place

If this is to be the important consideration, could we not add the seventh-day sabbath to the list (please see Exodus 31 and Deuteronomy 5)?

If someone is offended by my faith the only thing that can be done about it for me to compromise my faith or for them to change their attitude.

Is it about compromising one's faith, or is it about recognizing which command is the greatest? If one behaves as though the dietary laws are the greatest, has he not compromised his faith?

The former is out of the question

Why? Because dietary laws are of greater importance than the greatest commandment?

I doubt that you would compromise your faith just because somebody was offended by it.

Offer up an example and let's explore it further. I seriously doubt that I would compromise my faith by hurting a person who is seeking to do a good thing for me and by placing a higher priority on dietary laws as opposed to the law of love.

As for your Scriptural quotation, Paul's preaching offended many people. He was ultimately martyred for his faith because some people were offended by it.

The quote included a very specific setting, a setting that is quite relevant to my hypothetical. Did you miss those similarities?

Paul was not talking about offending people by acts done in faith, otherwise he would be a hypocrite. He was talking about personal habits that are neither commanded nor forbidden by Scripture.

Such as the following:
"And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" Thus He declared all foods clean." Mark 7:18-19
My hypothetical in the original post relates only to personal choices that are not forbidden by Scripture.

God knew what he was talking about when he told us that certain animals were not to be food for us.

Did He also know what He was talking about when He declared all foods clean?

I think God really had our best interests at heart when he gave us the dietary laws.

He also had someone's best interest at heart when He gave them feast days, circumcision, animal sacrifices and sanctuary practices. We know that the SDA denomination does not advocate for these. Do you?

Contrary to what you seem to be suggesting, I believe that the dietary laws, like the rest of the Law, were given in love.

So why do so many pick and choose the laws that they like as though the law was a Sunday afternoon buffet. Why conclude that some laws are eternal and others are temporary? If jots and tittles have passed, then shouldn't we conclude that all is accomplished?

If he had created pigs and non-piscene sea creatures for human consumption, there would be no reason for Him to forbid them in Scripture.

Did he not create fruit for human consumption? And yet we have record that He forbad it in Scripture. Who are we to question God?

I don't really see a reason to make a distinction between "religious" and "health" reasons for abstaining from unclean meats.

If your reasons are "religious" in nature, then there must be a Biblical basis for them. Why does Mark write that Jesus declared all foods clean?

Also, I don't recall saying "the ceremonial law has passed away", I don't find the distinction between the "moral law" and the "ceremonial law" to be a useful one.

It was raised because, to many SDAs, it is a useful one. And that is certainly the context of this forum. If you don't find such a distinction to be useful, can you share with us the ways in which you personally practice the holy convocations listed in Leviticus 23?

BFA
 
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Byfaithalone1

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If the host was my friend, he/she would know my dietary habits so them knowing isn't the issue.

That was hardly the intent of the original post. The intent was that you had never met the host before, that he was merely offering up his home out of the goodness of his heart. The implication is that this was not planned in advance, that no moneys would be exchanged or that the issue that arose could not have been foreseen. Care to respond to the hypothetical as written?

If he somehow forgets it and whips out pork for breakfast,

Reread the original post. It's not an issue of forgetting it. He never knew it.

i'll just remind him again and he will be fine with it.

He doesn't know you. Why should he be fine with it?

Perhaps others in the group will eat it.

What group? His household? I would imagine that his household WILL eat it. That's why he prepared it.

It's not an issue about whether i'm showing love or not when accepting something to eat.

If we believe that 1 Corinthians 10 is true, then we believe that accepting something to eat can be about love and avoiding unnecessary offense.

And my choice of food draws from the distinction that was made long before God told moses about clean/unclean meats.

Really? Even though God told Noah that every moving thing is good for good?
Even though Mark indicates (in Chapter 7) that Jesus declared all food as clean?

You wouldn't eat poison in moderation right?

I wouldn't conclude that pork is poison. I have no reason to reach such a conclusion.

BFA
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Byfaithalone1 said:
If this is to be the important consideration, could we not add the seventh-day sabbath to the list (please see Exodus 31 and Deuteronomy 5)?

No, because the Sabbath was given to the entire congregation of Israel.

Byfaithalone1 said:
Is it about compromising one's faith, or is it about recognizing which command is the greatest? If one behaves as though the dietary laws are the greatest, has he not compromised his faith?

The Law doesn't contradict itself. As I have already said, the dietary laws are not contrary to love. In the original scenario you posed, eating the burrito would not be showing my host love, as it would be setting a bad example to him.

Byfaithalone1 said:
Offer up an example and let's explore it further. I seriously doubt that I would compromise my faith by hurting a person who is seeking to do a good thing for me and by placing a higher priority on dietary laws as opposed to the law of love.

If your host offered you a cigarette, would you smoke it just to avoid offending him?

Byfaithalone1 said:
Did He also know what He was talking about when He declared all foods clean?

He never declared all foods clean. I looked up the passage you cited:

"And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.

And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?" Mark 7:17-19

Nothing there about all foods being clean. The context isn't even about the dietary laws.

Byfaithalone1 said:
He also had someone's best interest at heart when He gave them feast days, circumcision, animal sacrifices and sanctuary practices. We know that the SDA denomination does not advocate for these. Do you?

The feast days, yes. The santcuary, practices, well, the sanctuary no longer exists, so obviously no. Animal sacrifices were to support the sancuary practices, so no. Circumcision is a more complicated matter that I simply don't have time to fully address right now.
Byfaithalone1 said:
Did he not create fruit for human consumption? And yet we have record that He forbad it in Scripture. Who are we to question God?

God forbade fruit from one particular tree, not fruit in general.

Byfaithalone1 said:
If your reasons are "religious" in nature, then there must be a Biblical basis for them. Why does Mark write that Jesus declared all foods clean?

As I said, Mark writes no such thing.

Byfaithalone1 said:
If you don't find such a distinction to be useful, can you share with us the ways in which you personally practice the holy convocations listed in Leviticus 23?

I practice the holy convocations with the brethren at church. I don't have time to go into each one in detail, but the United Church of God (www.ucg.org) will be happy to inform you how they observe the biblical Holy Days.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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No, because the Sabbath was given to the entire congregation of Israel.

Please define the term "entire congregation of Israel." Do you conclude that the seventh-day sabbath is not for Gentiles?

The Law doesn't contradict itself. As I have already said, the dietary laws are not contrary to love. In the original scenario you posed, eating the burrito would not be showing my host love, as it would be setting a bad example to him.

A bad example of eating that which Christ has declared to be clean? You will have to explain this reasoning further.

If your host offered you a cigarette, would you smoke it just to avoid offending him?

Would that be the same thing as my host spending hours in the kitchen creating a cullinary delight? Are you suggesting that the host has grown the tabacco and hand rolled the cigarette? Only then would we be making any type of reasonable comparison.

He never declared all foods clean.

Please check again:
"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean." Mark 7:18-19 NASB
Nothing there about all foods being clean.

Are you sure you're reading the correct chapter? It's pretty clear to me that Jesus declared all foods clean.

The feast days, yes. The santcuary, practices, well, the sanctuary no longer exists, so obviously no. Animal sacrifices were to support the sancuary practices, so no. Circumcision is a more complicated matter that I simply don't have time to fully address right now.

So, in your estimation, Jesus is not correct when He asserts that not one jot or tittle could pass from the law until all is accomplished? Why do you reach that conclusion?

God forbade fruit from one particular tree, not fruit in general.

You first said that God has never forbidden foods that are good for a man and then you acknowledge that He did so on at least one occasion. What are we left to conclude?

I practice the holy convocations with the brethren at church. I don't have time to go into each one in detail, but the United Church of God (www.ucg.org) will be happy to inform you how they observe the biblical Holy Days.

The United Church of God does not advocate for the law in its entirety. One might wonder who granted a human denomination the authority to pick and choose which jots and tittles are allowed to pass.

BFA
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Should you eat breakfast?
No. Food bes highly overrated anyway. all it does bes makesy fat, lazy piggy humans! :D SHNORKKKKK ... if you must, please just have A cheerio. Just one. :D

But I could never eat just one!!! :cry:

BFA

P.S. It's good to "see" you again, Moriah!
 
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StormyOne

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Am I the only one who would not eat because I don't want to and don't like it and don't care at all about cleanliness/etc?

I mean, my answer would be the same if it was chicken or lamb.

JM
probably...... my answer would be the same if it were chicken, lamb, beef, lobster, alligator, etc... yeah I would taste it, and if it were good I would eat it all and ask for more.... but, that's just me...
 
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