what do you think?

I believe that is true.  God is sovereign, He controls all things.  There are times when He allows us to make our own choices, resulting in sin.  But if this sin does not work into his plan, to further it, to help us or others grow, He would not allow it.

Hebrews 1:3<SUP>

3</SUP>who being the brightness of <I>His</I> glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

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That is kinda silly. If you are doing something that is destructive to God's plan for his people (seeking and saving the lost), then you would be out of his will. Thankfully, He uses everything for His purpose, which sets the world in order.

There is the unwritten, yet commonly held,&nbsp;
doctrine of the irresistible will of God.&nbsp;

Based on these premises:&nbsp;
1. God is omnipotent. Being "all powerful" carries with it the idea that there is no power in creation that is _not_ of God.&nbsp;
2. God has "everything under control". That is: everything that happens can be traced back to an act of, and therefore the "will of", and "power of" God.

In other words: Gods will is irresistible. His will and power are linked, and therefore all that happens is His will. His will is automatically implemented in creation, and in our lives.

Which brings up some traps and errors.

There is the "all is God's will" trap:

"I am sick by the will of God." Which would of course have to be true if God has all under control. If God has all under control, then how could it be any other way?

"God took little Jimmy home..." We do not want to think anything else of poor jimmy... It is better to ascribe the horror to God.

"Granny was the greatest saint of God I have ever known, I do not know why God allowed her to have cancer." The only solution is that it was the will of God. Surely, one so righteous and faithful as Granny could not be at fault. It must have been God. Of course I sound a bit harsh here, but only because the circumstances are harsh. Sickness and death are terrible things. It is my desire illustrate the contradiction as cleary as possible.

There is the doubt/resignation trap:

"I need this Lord, IF it be according to your will..." If it does not happen, then we can just assume that it must not have been His will.&nbsp;

This leaves no room for lack of faith on your part. Rather it assumes the integrity of your belief and attempts to define the nature and will of God by the fruit of your faith (or doubt!).&nbsp;

"Why should I pray? if it is not His will, He will say no... if it is His will, it will happen anyway... He knows best, and I just believe He will do what is best for me..."

The error of the "general faith" theory is evident. It is an attempt to elevate "hope" to the position of faith. Faith is exact and specific. It knows what His will is, and believes it to be so in the face of contradictory circumstances and physical evidence. Hope is not sure what the will of God is, and can only wait and see by the results.

"I do not know what you want me to do Lord... I will pray your will be Done, and wait to see what happens."

Again, the prayer attempts to define the will of God by resulting experience, rather than by the Word of God. Here the "general faith" theorist attempts to define the will and therefore the nature of God by the fruit of his own faith(or doubt). "I did not receive, therefore it is not God's will for me to have it." Again, this assumes the belief and the integrity of the man, rather than the goodness and integrity of God.&nbsp;

Oddly, the proponents of this thought claim that they are honoring the power and glory of God. In reality, they are declaring the infallibility of their own "belief" and "reason" at the expense of the declared goodness and mercy of God.

The frightening statement of Jesus looms over the heads of these.

Mark 6:5 (YLT)&nbsp;
and he was not able there any mighty work to do, except on&nbsp; a few infirm people having put hands he did heal [them];

What you do not believe inhibits the ability of God in your life. His ability in your life is directly proportion to your specific faith. Hence His will is not automatically effected in your life by a "general faith".

In all this, we can only join with Jesus:

Mark 6:6 (ASV)&nbsp;
And he marvelled because of their unbelief..."

and pray we do not fail by the same example of unbelief. (Heb 4:11)

In all this there is a very evident truth. Even though we know that God is certainly all powerful, it is very evident that He is not directly controlling every event in your life and the lives of the people around you. He has delegated power and authority to His creation and to man. For instance, He created gravity. People fall off cliffs all the time. It would be a mistake to say that God pushed them off the cliffs and caused them to fall! It would also be grave error to say that God is directly responsible for all the sin, sickness, death, and destruction on the earth, and that it is the will of God that all this takes place. There is power, energy, and mass in the creation which God put into effect on the day of creation. He also delivered some of His sovereignty over to us, and this is the source of our free will. We are not robots who are devoid of thought and decision making power. He gave us free will to do or not do His will. My great grandfather was a Deist. A Deist believes that everything in creation is a manifestation of the mind of God. In other words: what you see around you _is_ God manifest. This error is close to what has permeated the modern Church and modern Theology. What you see around you (the death, sickness, sin, and destruction) is not a manifestation of God, the power of God, or the will of God. If all this were the will and power of God, then why would we pray about anything? Why would we not just thank God for the wars, the millions of abortions, and the gross sin that we see? No, we must realize that not everything we see is a direct manifestation of the will and power of God. Much of what we see is a result of the fallen creation. Some of it is a result of ignorance. Some of it is a result of sin. In each case, we can overcome these things by faith in the promises of God. We do not have to live a life of defeat and torment! Let us go on to believe the promises and honor the word of God!

Originally posted by puker_33
This was a statement that was stated by my bible teacher and it created a lot of controversy, what do you think?

“ultimately you can never be outside the will of God”

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I think it's the absolute truth.&nbsp; God is sovereign.&nbsp; All that God Wills will come to pass, and all that comes to pass is the result of God's sovereign control over His creation.&nbsp; That is not to say that God makes you sin.&nbsp; The thing that keeps us from sinning is God's grace.&nbsp; If God withholds that grace to bring about a part of His plan then He is definitely in control of it.&nbsp; The important thing to remember in that case is that grace is not something God is indebted to give.&nbsp; Therefore, when He withholds it and we respond to our situation sinfully it is a result of our own sinfulness and therefore we are responsible.

God bless

Is it then safe to say or does anyone else see the logic in that God has the POWER in EVERYTHING to "LET" Things happen?

This is a concept, perhaps a theology, I feel falls in line with what the bible says.

Take 9/11 for example. God is all powerful, sure, he also orchestrates? He controls us? There is a level of Opinion and Decision He leaves to us, but by His power alone we get to do that. And He undoubtedly can intervene at any moment. He could have frozen the plains in the air, but He simply lets us choose Him or the world, the flesh, or the devil. In this case: Allah. (Other Religions).

Where is our identity, our free will, our non-robotic state...where is LOVE without free will? IF God controls everything, He certainly would not feel Love,...Love simply couldn't exist without Evil or Free Will. Let me explain:

The way I put it is simply with household pets. You have a Dog, you Love it, it's YOURS.&nbsp; But how do you feel Loved from the dog? Would you feel love if you had to strap down it's four legs, leash the dog next to you, and tack on a muzzle so it didn't bite you: all in an effort to pet the dog? Certainly I wouldn't.

But take off those shackles, and open your front gate...and when the dog turns around and runs back to you....certainly you'd feel loved.

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Maybe this is watering down the big picture too much, but I feel it's simple logic. God wouldn't feel Love from His creation if He knew it only did what He said or had a heart for Him simply because it was forced to.

So, about Love existing without Hate. Well we need to have that other decision, there is only a choice to make when you have 2 possible variables.

If anyone agree's, please help me out. Disagree? Give me scripture. Even in the way I see it, God still has the Power and Control to intervene but also the power to let things happen.&nbsp; And to make use of the bad things we decide...like my parents divorce which was through bad decisions out of their will...yet God used it to evidently make us Reach out for Him and become born-again.

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Edit:

Didaskalos: I read over your post again, and I agree wholeheardedly. I guess you just said it with Verses and in a better fashion. I'm sorry I didn't notice this before I posted. But I suppose my post simplified it into a metaphor and about Love.&nbsp; I'm glad I found some people to relate to on this board.&nbsp; Not everyone around here could Logically agree or say the same.

I would tend to agree with didaskalos and TigerDBR posted, I believe man has free will and when God gave man the ability to love he also made the ability for people like Hitler to exist, God created Hitler but Hitler decided to be like that. I believe we can change Gods mind also, as the argument goes what do we pray for.

Originally posted by puker_33
This was a statement that was stated by my bible teacher and it created a lot of controversy, what do you think?

“ultimately you can never be outside the will of God”

Click to expand...

I might be mistaken but that actually goes against what Greg Boyd teaches, doesn't it?

Originally posted by puker_33
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So do you really think that Hitler was inside the will of God?

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Yes, I do.&nbsp; All things are in the will of God.

“ultimately you can never be outside the will of God”

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Then there is no sin, since we are always in the will of God?

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Maybe it boils down to people's definition of 'will'...there's a difference between knowing of it happening...allowing it to happen and making it/causing it to happen...I believe that God is all knowing, nothing happens without his knowledge (there's also one particular point of arguemnt in teh bible that Satan went to God and asked him if he could inflict Job with illness..and God allowed it..but maybe that s a whole other issue to raise up)....

But I totally agree with tigerdbr; there's the issue of choice and freewill in the matter because the bigger picture is love..we can't have love without choice...in our punative flesh we need grounds of comparison to see for ourselves what love is and what love isnt..there's choice.

Did God tell Hitler to kill the jews?...I doubt it.

Nothing is outside the knowledge of God..I think that can all be agreed upon. Yet there are also instances in the bible where God himself hardened peopel's hearts such as Pharoah before Moses..and King Saul before David...but to say that every indesent act is in God's will..I dont know...

Jesus is teh shepard of his flock...and when one sheep wanders off..he will leave His flock to get that sheep...did He 'will' for that sheep to leave...to runaway out of His will?...I think that God reaches out His hand to comfort us when we've done something wrong...and asked for forgiveness of course..disobedience is stepping out of God's commmands..His commmands being His will for us...we can step away from God...just like we "can go near to Him for him to come near to us"...so can we too step away from Him...Ialso think that God can turn that which is bad...into something for teh good to bring him glory...just like what TigerDBR said about the twin towers...

People themselves in their own sin and flesh chose to do that...and it was terrible..a great tragedy...but God was still present..and there have been many good things that have come out of it...because God cannot be defeated..and He will not be made a mockery.

Originally posted by TigerDBR
IF God controls everything, He certainly would not feel Love,...Love simply couldn't exist without Evil or Free Will.

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I don't disagree with you that God, in His sovereignty, allows man to act according to His sinful nature but you must understand that Biblical love is not a "feeling."&nbsp; It is an action.&nbsp; God rebirthing us when we were yet His enemy is love.&nbsp; Everything God does, He does because He loves His chosen.&nbsp; He does not condemn some people to a life, and death, of unrighteousness because He loves them.&nbsp; He doesn't love those people, or He would save them.&nbsp; God's love has a purpose.&nbsp; That purpose is very clear.&nbsp; It is for the sanctification of His elect:

1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification

The way I put it is simply with household pets. You have a Dog, you Love it, it's YOURS.&nbsp; But how do you feel Loved from the dog? Would you feel love if you had to strap down it's four legs, leash the dog next to you, and tack on a muzzle so it didn't bite you: all in an effort to pet the dog? Certainly I wouldn't.

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This analogy discards a very important part of our salvation.&nbsp; God did not just rescue us from the wages of our sin.&nbsp; He also gave us a new desire, a new nature, born from an incorruptible seed that desires to do for His good pleasure.&nbsp; We are not just the same old sinful, rebellious creations that&nbsp;are at war with God.&nbsp; We have a new nature.&nbsp; We are a new creation.&nbsp; We were reborn of a totally different&nbsp;seed when we were saved.&nbsp; It is no longer natural for us to sin.&nbsp; Yes, we still sin.&nbsp; However,&nbsp;God has put in us a new heart.&nbsp; That heart desires to be like God:

Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you both to will&nbsp;(desire)&nbsp;and to do (ability) for His good pleasure.&nbsp;

*emphasis mine

But take off those shackles, and open your front gate...and when the dog turns around and runs back to you....certainly you'd feel loved.

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As I said, love is an action.&nbsp; You know your dog loves you by his obedience, by his actions.&nbsp; This is a wierd example but it becomes clearer&nbsp;if you consider&nbsp;humans.&nbsp; If you're married how do you know that your spouse loves you?&nbsp; Is it because they feel loving towards you?&nbsp; Of course not.&nbsp; It's because of&nbsp;what they do to show you that love.&nbsp; In your example, you don't believe your&nbsp;dog loves you becaue he has a loving feeling.&nbsp; You know he loves you because&nbsp;he&nbsp;wants to be near you, he licks you, he acts in a loving manner.

Maybe this is watering down the big picture too much, but I feel it's simple logic. God wouldn't feel Love from His creation if He knew it only did what He said or had a heart for Him simply because it was forced to.

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The problem with this frame of thought is that you&nbsp;seem to be totally discounting the effect the Fall had on&nbsp;the&nbsp;very nature of mankind.&nbsp; Mankind, none of them, loved, or sought&nbsp;after, God.&nbsp;&nbsp;No one.&nbsp; Nobody did anything righteous apart from God's intervention.&nbsp; The only reason we, Christians, love God is because He loved us first:

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.&nbsp;

Him "first loving us" was His action of saving us, of regenerating us, of reconciling us to Him.&nbsp; The unsaved do nothing out of faith because they have no faith in God.&nbsp; Our faith is a gift from Him.&nbsp; Our very ability to believe is a gift of His grace.&nbsp; If we do not act out of faith, we act out of sin:

Romans 14:23
for whatever is not from faith is sin.

God bless

Originally posted by puker_33
BUT with your dog analogy i think that is a little different because God is way different than us humans and we are way different than dogs...your thinking "duh...your a smart one!" but according to your view we have to show God we love him be what we do, or actions, or come back to our owner (if we were dogs) but the owner in your analogy is different than our owner because the dogs owner is a human that doesn't know the dogs thoughts or feelings...but our owner (God) knows our thoughts and feelings. So he already knows that we Love him.

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I'm not sure if this was directed at me but, just for the record, the "dog analogy" was not mine.

I don't understand where you got the fact that "Biblical love is not a "feeling." It is an action."

if Love is an action and not a feeling then it would be safe to say that if i had a girlfriend and i loved her the only for me to SHOW those feelings to her is by my actions. well i think that love is a feeling and in order to SHOW it to someone or something is to put actions into that feeling. so it really is a feeling. but in order to show the feeling of love you have to act upon it.

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I didn't say that when we love someone we don't have certain feelings for them.&nbsp; I said that Biblical love is an action.&nbsp; I'll give you an example:

Romans 9:13
As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Jacob God loved (gave His salvitic love), Esau God hated (withheld His salvitic love).&nbsp; The giving of salvation, the redeeming of Jacob was God's love.

Here's another:

Proverbs 13:24
He who spares his rod hates his son,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

He who hates his son withholds that which the son needs, i.e., prompt discipline.&nbsp; But, he who loves His son disciplines him promptly.&nbsp; The father's love is the act of disciplining the son.

That is not to say that our feelings for our children aren't "loving."&nbsp; However, that love manifests itself in the form of guidance, be it encouragement in the form of a kind word or in the form of a spanking.&nbsp; Our desire for our children to grow up in the Word and be God fearing adults who strive to be obedient will manifest itself however it needs to to accomplish that.&nbsp; That is how we show our love.

God bless

Originally posted by puker_33
the key word there is show, i think that you can love someone with just feelings but in order to show it you use actions. so you can love them with just feelings...but you show it by your actions!

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You're talking about two totally different things.&nbsp; One is biblical love, which is an action, the other is an emotion.&nbsp; We definitely have emotions.&nbsp; However, that is not what is meant by "love" in the Bible.

God bless

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