what do you think?

adam332 · Dec 6, 2002

How about this...

It is God's will that we can make our own choices, but our choices aren't always His will.

 

Reformationist · Dec 6, 2002

Originally posted by adam332
How about this...

It is God's will that we can make our own choices, but our choices aren't always His will.

 

How about this...

It is God's Will that we can make our own choices, but our choices aren't always righteous.

People always have a difficult time when addressing what is God's Will and what isn't.  I say that everything happens according to God's Will.  If we are tempted to sin and God does not give us the grace to resist we will sin.  My pastor always puts it very succinctly:

But for the grace of God, there go I.

We must understand that the only reason that we are ever able to resist submitting to our sinfulness is God's grace.  Therefore, if He determines that what is needed is to withhold His grace, then that's what He does.  Let me point out something very important.  God is under no obligation to extend His grace.  That's why it's grace.  It's unmerited.  The reason we are accountable for the decision we make that are sinful, though they are due to not being given the grace to resist, is, one, as I said God is under no obligation to give us that grace, and two, these are the decisions we would make.  We the ones who make the decision.

God bless

adam332 · Dec 6, 2002

Reform Guy,
God doesn't extend His grace. If you are a lover of the Lord, it is you who needs to step up and claim it.

Heb. 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

When it's is claimed, watch out, because He is liable to pour it out.

Psa. 45:2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.

You said;
"the only reason that we are ever able to resist submitting to our sinfulness is God's grace."

That's incorrect. It is faith that gives us the ability to resist sinfulness. Grace is given after faith, not before.

1Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Humbleness came before grace, not after.

Eph. 6:24 Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity.

Grace is given to those who love the Lord in sincerity. It does not say that grace is given to non-lovers of the Lord, so that they may become lovers of Him.
Grace is after, not before!

Eph. 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

We have the measure of the gift of Christ first, then it is determined how much grace we receive.
Grace is after, not before!

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Grace is given through faith, faith first then grace. No faith, no grace!

Gal. 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The effect of Christ in us comes first then grace is given. We lose the effect of Christ we lose grace.
Grace is after, not before!

2Cor. 8:19 And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

A ready mind comes first then God's grace is given as a declaration of it.
Grace after, not before!

Rom. 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom. 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

We can access His grace through our obedience to faith. Our faith is first and then grace is accessed.
Grace after, not before!

need I continue? Ther's lot's more that clearly show the faithful are faithful first then they get grace. It is our faith that gives us restraint against sin, and it is our faith that deems us righteous, and it is faith that gives us access to grace.
Grace after, not before!

Gabriel · Dec 6, 2002

We can access His grace through our obedience to faith. Our faith is first and then grace is accessed.
Grace after, not before!

need I continue? Ther's lot's more that clearly show the faithful are faithful first then they get grace. It is our faith that gives us restraint against sin, and it is our faith that deems us righteous, and it is faith that gives us access to grace.
Grace after, not before! [/B]

According to Ephesians, we have no faith before grace:1And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Gabriel · Dec 6, 2002

You brought up Romans 5:2   Keep reading

Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Grace- righteousness -etenal life

Heb. 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

   Again out of context for your arguement.  This is written to christians.  This is telling us that Christ is our advocate to the Father.  That because of Christ christians may boldly approach the throne and seek ewhat we need to sustain us.  Grace is not a one time thing.  As Ref. told you, it continues theough our walk.  Sometimes it is withheld for brief periods.

1Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Since you do it so often, I will refer to out of context verses as OOC from this point forward.  As the one above is.  Again I will tell you 1 and 2 Peter are letters written to christians.  they have already received saving grace.   Read on:

But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. 11To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

You seem to be saying that if we obey we will obtain grace.  What say you to this?

For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ  Moses gave the law, Christ gave us grace.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

  It is not our faith, it is Christ's faith.  Our faith is a gift from God.  It is because of His grace that he gives it.

You keep pointing out that we earn grace.  What is the definition of grace?  that which is undeserved yet freely given. 

This statement doesn't even make sense:    

Eph. 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

We have the measure of the gift of Christ first, then it is determined how much grace we receive.
Grace is after, not before!

    It doesn't say we are given measure, it says we are given grace.  The amount of grace given is determined by Christ.

 

 

 

Blackhawk · Dec 6, 2002

Originally posted by Reformationist
How about this...

It is God's Will that we can make our own choices, but our choices aren't always righteous.

People always have a difficult time when addressing what is God's Will and what isn't.  I say that everything happens according to God's Will.  If we are tempted to sin and God does not give us the grace to resist we will sin. 

Reform do you agree (at least in the principle behind it if not the words) with my 2 uses of will? That is God's moral will (to sin or not sin) and God's sovereign will. (everything is under this)  So that I cn be out of God's moral will but never out of God's sovereign will. I think you do but I was just wondering. 

Also do you think that our choosing to sin or not to sin is predetermined by God as salvation is?  It seems you do.  I believe I have been given all that is necessary to not sin at the point of salvation/ regeneration however I still sin because I choose not to use the power that God has given me.  So I was once completely dead and could only sin but God fully changed me.  He gave me the power to resist sin and basically be righteous.  However I still choose to be unrighteouss.  But it is not because God has not given me enough grace at that moment.  It is because I have chosen to not use that grace but instead go back to the sewers even though I am completely clean.  Maybe that is a bad analogy but I guess I am asking how deterministic do you think the universe is?   I do not think God makes me choose to sin or not sin but instead gives me the power of choice through salvation. 

blackhawk

Note: sorry no verses I am going to sleep. :sleep:

  I could not sleep last night and snce I work for a shipping company right now I have to work from 2 am until 7 am.  :sleep:

Blackhawk · Dec 6, 2002

Originally posted by adam332
How about this...

It is God's will that we can make our own choices, but our choices aren't always His will.

 

I would just add a few words to make it more clear.

It is God's sovereign will that we can make our own choices, but our choices aren't always His moral will.

With the addition of these words we can understand what kind of will you are speaking about in each instance. 

Reformationist · Dec 6, 2002

Originally posted by adam332
God doesn't extend His grace. If you are a lover of the Lord, it is you who needs to step up and claim it.

You get grace because you step up and claim it?  Do you even know what grace is?  It's UNMERITED favor.  If you get it because you step up and claim it it would kinda cease to be unmerited, don't you think?

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Let me guess, you don't think "stepping up and claiming" something is a work right?

That's incorrect. It is faith that gives us the ability to resist sinfulness. Grace is given after faith, not before.

Your faith IS A RESULT OF GOD'S GRACE.  You obviously don't understand what grace is.  Let me help you.  Grace is a vehicle for God's love.  When God gives you grace it comes in the form that He determines you most need for His plan to come to fruition.  For instance, when you were "dead in your tresspasses and sins" and unable to turn to God, God determined that you needed faith.  By His grace He gave you faith.  Faith is the thing you needed.  You could accurately substitute the word "help" for grace.  If you couldn't pay your rent and God graced you He wouldn't give you grace, He'd give you money.  Grace is the capsule in which is sent God's love.  It is not "THE" thing you get. 

Grace is given to those who love the Lord in sincerity. It does not say that grace is given to non-lovers of the Lord, so that they may become lovers of Him.

It is by God's grace that man even has a way to be redeemed:

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity
        Between you and the woman,
        And between your seed and her Seed;
        He shall bruise your head,
        And you shall bruise His heel."

See, like I said before, after Adam's disobedience, what we most needed was a Savior that would reconcile us to our Creator.  By His Grace, He made provision for His people.  It is by God's grace that we are not all Geoffrey Dahlmers.  Believe me, the only thing that restrains us from being as bad as we can be is God's grace.  Oh by the way, as to this incorrect statement:

It does not say that grace is given to non-lovers of the Lord, so that they may become lovers of Him.

Matthew 5:44-46
But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.  For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Grace is after, not before!

If grace was after it would cease to be grace because grace is unmerited. 

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Grace is given through faith, faith first then grace. No faith, no grace!

The faith is the grace.

need I continue? Ther's lot's more that clearly show the faithful are faithful first then they get grace. It is our faith that gives us restraint against sin, and it is our faith that deems us righteous, and it is faith that gives us access to grace.
Grace after, not before!

This is so sad.

  Grace is not a reward.  If it was it would cease to be grace.  Grace is based on nothing you do.

God bless 

adam332 · Dec 6, 2002

Reform guy,

I never once said that we earn grace. There are works of merit and works of obedience.

Works of merit cannot earn grace, yet, works of obedience out of our love for the Lord testify of our faith. Once our faith is established we are given grace. Not cause we earned it, but because we love the Lord and He will happily and freely give the faithful His grace, that we might abound even more.

My verses are not out of context, they were written about believers and it is believers that I am speaking of.

The bottom line is that the Bible says over and over that grace is given to those who are already faithful, already humble, already obedient, and are not the faithful obedient? I gave you alot more verses, than the ones you commented on, which show your error. You want a dozen more? Two dozen? Three?

No one is saved by works, please do not insinuate again that I am indicating such.

The Bible is crystal clear, obedience and works testify and witness of our faith. Not dead works done to earn merit or favor, but works out of love. True obedience will never seem like work, because the faithful can do them naturally through the spirit of Christ.

 

Reformationist · Dec 6, 2002

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Reform do you agree (at least in the principle behind it if not the words) with my 2 uses of will? That is God's moral will (to sin or not sin) and God's sovereign will. (everything is under this)  So that I cn be out of God's moral will but never out of God's sovereign will. I think you do but I was just wondering.

Yeah, I guess so.  Obviously God is not pleased by our disobedience.  However, man's disobedience is intended to accomplish something totally different in the saved than in the unsaved.  I'll give you an example.  Godly character is something that God uses the unrighteousness of mankind to develop within us.  Obviously God could make everyone's actions righteous.  But, He does not.  So, let's say that you encounter a very difficult person.  You have the opportunity to put your faith in God by responding to that person in a godly way, or, you could put your faith in your own methods of dealing with that person which are probably sinfully motivated.  Now, is it God's Will that you encounter that person?  Of course.  Is it God's Will that that person be ungodly to you?  Here's the sticking point for most.  I would say yes.  I would not say that God "makes" that person sin.  I just understand the result in our actions of God withholding His grace.  If God does not give us the grace, we will always respond according to the flesh.  Now, this person has acted according to his own sinful, fallenness.  You now have the opportunity to exhibit the love of Christ.  This type of scenario builds our faith when we do respond in godliness.  We see that things turn out exactly as God said they would.  You ever say anything calm and reconciliatory to someone who's yelling at you?  I'm sure you have.  You have that type of personality.  Isn't the effect almost always instantaneous?  They almost always quickly calm down.  Basically, I would say that I agree with your "2 different wills" theory except I don't know that I'd use the word "will."  God's Will is always done.  I would say that God works all things, even our disobedience to the good of His children. 

Also do you think that our choosing to sin or not to sin is predetermined by God as salvation is?  It seems you do.  I believe I have been given all that is necessary to not sin at the point of salvation/ regeneration however I still sin because I choose not to use the power that God has given me.  So I was once completely dead and could only sin but God fully changed me.  He gave me the power to resist sin and basically be righteous.  However I still choose to be unrighteouss.  But it is not because God has not given me enough grace at that moment.  It is because I have chosen to not use that grace but instead go back to the sewers even though I am completely clean.  Maybe that is a bad analogy but I guess I am asking how deterministic do you think the universe is?   I do not think God makes me choose to sin or not sin but instead gives me the power of choice through salvation.

I definitely see where you are coming from.  I think one of the reason that saved people continue to sin is because of the old nature that is still with us.  The old man, if you will.  We have built up some autopilot responses to certain situations and we have to strive to overcome these responses.  Most of the time when the Bible talks about saved man's nature it is really just telling us that we have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness so, therefore, live your life that way.  Don't go back "to the sewers" from whence you came.  You're a different creation.  Act like one. 
God bless

Reformationist · Dec 6, 2002

Originally posted by adam332
Reform guy,

I never once said that we earn grace. There are works of merit and works of obedience.

Yes you did:

Reform Guy,
God doesn't extend His grace. If you are a lover of the Lord, it is you who needs to step up and claim it.

Why do we get grace according to you?  Because we "step up and claim it."  Yup.  That would be a work. 

Once our faith is established we are given grace.

Is your receiving of that grace based on anything you do, such as having faith, stepping up and claiming it, your being humble, because you "love the Lord in sincerity," because you have "a ready mind?"

If so, then you attribute receiving God's grace to it being based on you deserving it.  If you deserve it, it's a debt of God's.  He owes it to you.  It is your wage.  It ceases to be grace:

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

The bottom line is that the Bible says over and over that grace is given to those who are already faithful, already humble, already obedient, and are not the faithful obedient? I gave you alot more verses, than the ones you commented on, which show your error. You want a dozen more? Two dozen? Three?

Your lack of understanding of what you've already posted is enough for me.  I'll pass.

God bless

adam332 · Dec 6, 2002

Reform guy,
please stop acting condecending like I am not aware of context or what grace is.

Maybe you should ask yourself if you truly understand the subject, since it is you who has been scripturally shown to make contradictory statements to the Bible. Maybe you should stop listening to your pastor and read your Bible instead. And then some childish fellow like myself won't be able to show you your error so easily.
Faith first, and then Grace, period! Nothing you have said or shown has disproved the Bibles clear emphasis on this point.

Reformationist · Dec 6, 2002

Originally posted by adam332
Reform guy,
please stop acting condecending like I am not aware of context or what grace is.

Okay.  If you understand what grace is then stop saying it's a result of something you do because grace is not a result of something we do.  Otherwise, you don't understand what grace is. 

Maybe you should ask yourself if you truly understand the subject, since it is you who has been scripturally shown to make contradictory statements to the Bible. Maybe you should stop listening to your pastor and read your Bible instead. And then some childish fellow like myself won't be able to show you your error so easily.
Faith first, and then Grace, period! Nothing you have said or shown has disproved the Bibles clear emphasis on this point.

I got a better idea.  I'll stop responding to your posts and then you can argue with someone else.  Cool?

God bless

Gabriel · Dec 6, 2002

footballfanatic · Dec 6, 2002

I must say that I respectfully disagree. That just not what we read in the Bible.

Yes, God is all powerful, but he doesn't force control on anyone. We have free choice and free will. All things work together for good, but that good may not come until we are in Heaven. There are things that happen on earth that are not part of his will. Examples? Abortion, starvation, Bill Clinton, taxes, lol........

What is most clear to me is what the Bible DOES say. It says:

God's Word says that God does not will that any perish but all be saved: Titus 2:11; 1 Ti 2:3-4; 2 Pe 3:9. So if he had chosen to control everything, all would be saved. But because He has relinquished control, some things happen that He would rather not. But this had to be done so that we would choose HIM rather than just blessings. He wants to be loved because of who HE is, not because he is a Santa Clause.

Also, the theory that everything is in the will of God makes the Devil no enemy for the saved to worry about, 1 Pe 5:8 Why does the Bible tell us to beware? If by being aware of the devil and steering clear of his temptations we change things, then we have free choice.

The Bible also tells us that man can "resist the Holy Spirit": Acts 6:10; 7:51-55. So if we are resisting Him, then we are resisting His will.

I believe the Bible is clear that we make our own choices and live with the results. Think about the following scriptures:

"Why do you call me Lord & don't do what I say" Lk 6:46 Why? Did God will it that way! That doesn't make sense.
"Whosoever believes shall be saved" Jn 3:16 (Or should it say whosoever God makes a believer. Nope, it's our choice.)
"Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Re 22:17
"Come to me you who are heavy laden and I will give you rest" Mt 11:28 (So what if we make the choice not to come?).

We can argue about philosophy all day, but the Bible is clear. "We must all appear before the judgment that each may be repaid for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." 2 Cor 5:10

Just my thoughts.

Lee

Blackhawk · Dec 6, 2002

Originally posted by Reformationist
Yeah, I guess so.  Obviously God is not pleased by our disobedience.  However, man's disobedience is intended to accomplish something totally different in the saved than in the unsaved.  I'll give you an example.  Godly character is something that God uses the unrighteousness of mankind to develop within us.  Obviously God could make everyone's actions righteous.  But, He does not.  So, let's say that you encounter a very difficult person.  You have the opportunity to put your faith in God by responding to that person in a godly way, or, you could put your faith in your own methods of dealing with that person which are probably sinfully motivated.  Now, is it God's Will that you encounter that person?  Of course.  Is it God's Will that that person be ungodly to you?  Here's the sticking point for most.  I would say yes. 

 

I would say yes also.  It is only because God allowed the person to sin that He sinned.  And only that he sinned that particular moment because God allowed Him to do so in His sovereign will. He definitely has a purpose for the sin even though it is not in His moral will.  God changes what the devil and what we do for bad motives and makes good come out of them.  Again I do not God in His sovereignty completly but I know enough that He is and that I trust His goodness towards to me. 

Also I say yes because that person could be ungodly to anyone but God allowed you to either choose to be there out of His moral will (maybe there is a 3rd kind of will)  or that you did not sin but God chose you to be ther anyways.  Either way God uses it for our good. 

 I would not say that God "makes" that person sin.  I just understand the result in our actions of God withholding His grace.  If God does not give us the grace, we will always respond according to the flesh. [/B]

 

True.  We can't do anything good at all without His grace. Actually we can't do or be anything without God's grace.  All things have occurred to us because of God's grace.  I would even argue that this is true for the nonChristian also.  Of course he does not receieve all the grace we do but he has received so much grace from God. 

 

  Now, this person has acted according to his own sinful, fallenness.  You now have the opportunity to exhibit the love of Christ.  This type of scenario builds our faith when we do respond in godliness.  We see that things turn out exactly as God said they would.  You ever say anything calm and reconciliatory to someone who's yelling at you?  I'm sure you have.  You have that type of personality.  Isn't the effect almost always instantaneous?  They almost always quickly calm down.  Basically, I would say that I agree with your "2 different wills" theory except I don't know that I'd use the word "will."  God's Will is always done.  I would say that God works all things, even our disobedience to the good of His children.  [/B]

Click to expand...

 

I think we are in agreement about most things when we speak about our theologies of God and His attributes.  We do have our differences which makes us different people.  You seem to focus more on His sovereignty than even I do.  And I say that believeing that I focus on it more than most Christians. I tend to focus more on man's will than you do.  I am not saying that we both do not have beliefs and doctrines about the other but in the age old debate God's sovereignty and our freewill I am a little more on the freewill side.  I can't wait until we get to heaven receive more grace from God as He takes thousands of years describing the real answer to this question and we would just have started. 

 I definitely see where you are coming from.  I think one of the reason that saved people continue to sin is because of the old nature that is still with us.  The old man, if you will.  We have built up some autopilot responses to certain situations and we have to strive to overcome these responses.  Most of the time when the Bible talks about saved man's nature it is really just telling us that we have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness so, therefore, live your life that way.  Don't go back "to the sewers" from whence you came.  You're a different creation.  Act like one. 
God bless [/B]

Click to expand...

I try to act like one although I know fail much. But my struggle here is God's design.  It is for my good to struggle rather than just be made fully sanctified at regeneration.  I do not like to go back to the sewers but I find myself there too often.  Thank God that it is not my righteoussness or power that saves me.  It is Christ's righteousness imputed on me and God's power that keeps me in His hand. 

Probably our difference here is much more about terminology than anything else. I still think we have some differences because  what we focus on is different but we are very much alike. 

HGave a very blessed evening and try and let's try not to meet eachother in the sewer.

blackhawk

Blackhawk · Dec 6, 2002

Originally posted by leesw
I must say that I respectfully disagree. That just not what we read in the Bible.

Yes, God is all powerful, but he doesn't force control on anyone. We have free choice and free will. All things work together for good, but that good may not come until we are in Heaven. There are things that happen on earth that are not part of his will. Examples? Abortion, starvation, Bill Clinton, taxes, lol........

Ahh yes taxes can't be a part of His will. 

 

But anyways so you are saying that God wills one thing to occur but we make it so His will is not accomplished.  Is that right? If so how can you be sure of His promises?   If I can change God's sovereign will (you only said will but this is at least an aspect of will as is His moral will)  then why can't I possibly change by my stupidity or whatever else the promise of heaven to His elect?  Maybe not me but the collective stupidity of all us maybe could then.  At least how would we know if this is not a possibility?  And if this is so where is there hope?  Where is there peace?  How is God sovereign? 

What is most clear to me is what the Bible DOES say. It says:

God's Word says that God does not will that any perish but all be saved: Titus 2:11; 1 Ti 2:3-4; 2 Pe 3:9. So if he had chosen to control everything, all would be saved. But because He has relinquished control, some things happen that He would rather not. But this had to be done so that we would choose HIM rather than just blessings. He wants to be loved because of who HE is, not because he is a Santa Clause. [/B]

 

Yes He wants us to choose to love Him but still if God reliquishes control of this then why not some of the things He wished would not occur be the corruption of Heaven or something like that?  I say that no He does not wish us to sin be He allows and gives us a choice to sin or not sin.  He allows us to sin.  So in a very real way He is still in complete control. God even uses our sin for good.  This is why I think the breaking down of God's will into different types is important.  

Also, the theory that everything is in the will of God makes the Devil no enemy for the saved to worry about, 1 Pe 5:8 Why does the Bible tell us to beware? If by being aware of the devil and steering clear of his temptations we change things, then we have free choice. [/B]

Click to expand...

 

Here is the thing we change things but yet we don't.  WE get out of His moral will but God knew this would occur and uses it for His glory.  He allowed us to go against Him and that is the only reason why we can do it.  The Bible does tell us to beware of the devil but  it also tells us that there really is no battle between God the devil.  The devil had no chance of overthrowing God.  Not a very slim chance but no chance.  The bible makes it clear that God is in control of the situation and that we can have hope because he will end the victor.  That is why we can sin "Vic'try in Jesus"

The Bible also tells us that man can "resist the Holy Spirit": Acts 6:10; 7:51-55. So if we are resisting Him, then we are resisting His will.

I believe the Bible is clear that we make our own choices and live with the results. Think about the following scriptures:

"Why do you call me Lord & don't do what I say" Lk 6:46 Why? Did God will it that way! That doesn't make sense.
"Whosoever believes shall be saved" Jn 3:16 (Or should it say whosoever God makes a believer. Nope, it's our choice.)
"Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Re 22:17
"Come to me you who are heavy laden and I will give you rest" Mt 11:28 (So what if we make the choice not to come?).

We can argue about philosophy all day, but the Bible is clear. "We must all appear before the judgment that each may be repaid for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." 2 Cor 5:10

Just my thoughts.

Lee [/B]

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well I have no problems with the verses and us resisting the Holy Spirit for I believe that God in his sovereign will allows us free choice to choose to sin.  I believe we can go against His moral will but God let's us do it. 

An analogy that is far from perfect is of a parent and a child.  As the Child grows up the parent allows thechild more freedoms thus it is the parents will that the child have the choice to go against His will. 

adam332 · Dec 6, 2002

Reform guy,
I never once said grace is a result of something you do, that is a lie.
Grace is the result of who you are, that is faithful.

If you care to quit this discussion, that is your choice and is par for someone who cannot prove their views Biblically or find themselves to be in opposition to scripture.

Grace comes through faith, not vice versa! When you and/or your pastor understand that I will be waiting for your apology.

Gabriel · Dec 7, 2002

Originally posted by adam332
Reform guy,
I never once said grace is a result of something you do, that is a lie.
Grace is the result of who you are, that is faithful.

If you care to quit this discussion, that is your choice and is par for someone who cannot prove their views Biblically or find themselves to be in opposition to scripture.

Grace comes through faith, not vice versa! When you and/or your pastor understand that I will be waiting for your apology.

If grace is a sign of the amount of faith you have, I would say you need to work on your faith.  You are anything but graceful.

You might also consider this;  if you are 35 and people believe you when you say you're 10 (I believed you) perhaps you should look inward and consider whether your treatment of others reflects a Christ-like image.  "How can you remove the speck from your brother's eye when you have a plank in your eye?"  "Admonish one another in love."

Reformationist · Dec 7, 2002

Originally posted by Blackhawk
I try to act like one although I know fail much. But my struggle here is God's design.  It is for my good to struggle rather than just be made fully sanctified at regeneration.  I do not like to go back to the sewers but I find myself there too often.  Thank God that it is not my righteoussness or power that saves me.  It is Christ's righteousness imputed on me and God's power that keeps me in His hand.

Hey bro!  I just wanted to clarify that I was speaking generally when I said, "You're a different creation.  Act like one."  I think you are great guy and you set a great example for the rest of us, especially myself.

God bless,

Don

what do you think?

Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t

I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found

I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found

Monkey Boy

Monkey Boy

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found

Only John Waye Left

Monkey Boy

Monkey Boy

Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t

I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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