How was Adam able to sin, if he wasn't created with sin?

Rick Otto · Aug 2, 2008

quote=PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter;So how then did Adam come to sin?

He was as God said, "good", but not perfect.
He was just a man, there was devil on the loose & a woman involved.
How would that have affected your chances? (lol)

Was he not created with a sinless nature in your opinion?

I think he didn't intend to sin, but was overcome by conflicting desires.
Give him some credit, he had expressed no interest or curiosity in forbidden fruit until the only God-given human companion he'd ever known & loved tempted him with it.

If he was created with a sinless nature and he had no free will, then God had to will Adam to sin.

God had to will His son be crucified. Does that make God guilty of conspiracy to comit murder? Yes it does. Are we then to charge God with evil motive?
Perspective on motive gives insight to behavior.

An equally important and more confusing question would be how did the angels come to choose Satan over God?

Same deal. They weren't perfect. God allowed it. Imagine His point in doing so.

All a part of God's will that they do that? To say man has no free will is to say that God wills sin.

Sin depends on intent.
Evil & sin would not exist if God didn't want them to.
God could've created a "Nerf-Universe" where nobody gets hurt, & nothing ever goes wrong. Why didn't He?

Values exist in contrast.
Without contrast, value is meaningless.
Good doesn't have meaning without it's opposite.

Why would God give Isreal a law He knew they could not fulfill?

Without the values aquired by character-building experiences, we could not percieve God's glory, or His goodness & mercy.

Romans 9:22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24: Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

`BTW, which of the two groups on either side of this issue in this thread have been the most civil - tounged?

toirewadokodesuka · Aug 2, 2008

Alethes said:
I have yet to see a genuine logical response by you to any of my posts. It is obvious that you do not truly want proof of free will and use every excuse you can possibly conjure up in order to free yourself of the responsibility you have before God for your wrongful deeds or actions. The proof is clearly seen and written in Genesis to Revelation and you are without excuse.

Well this really depends if we sharing / trying to convert one another.

It would be a lot more convincing to me if the idea of free will was explicitly defined. Then I say it isnt (you are free to disagree). And nock the idea off as vague.

In terms of common sense though. Free will is very agreeable. We feel free. Therefore we must be free.

Many men have claimed God has established a covenant of free will with men. I'm yet to discover this...

Alethes said:

You have utterly failed to disprove God created man with the freedom of will to choose to obey or disobey Him. Your scenario of physical sickness, disease and mental disorders ,which are the result of sin and unbelief that is in the world, does not in any way negates the truth that God created man with 100%-freedom of will to choose. You have no Scripture to support what is all talk and nothing more.

Click to expand...

A person says "2 + a = 5" I say "you are wrong!" and neglect to tell that person why he/she is wrong. And go on to say "You cant back that up!" and neglect to back up what I'm saying.

Btw. So the human will is %100 free. Why? And how?

Alethes said:
Your description of man is that of a robot, a thing, that has no mind at all, who is programmed to do whatever its creator wants him do. What a pathetic picture to have of oneself ... and of God, who created man in His own image and with the freedom of will to choose for himself to love and worship Him from a willing heart. To have this false image of yourself and of God you cannot possible know or discern the difference between the true God and the false god of this world; Satan/the Devil, with his host of evil spirits, which control and possess peoples' mind to make them do what he wills them to do. You've got it all backwards.

"Your description of man is that of a robot, a thing, that has no mind at all, who is programmed to do whatever its creator wants him do."

One exception though. The programming language God uses is JCScript, not Assembly, C#, VB, or other inferior human programs.

"What a pathetic picture to have of oneself ... and of God, who created man in His own image and with the freedom of will to choose for himself to love and worship Him from a willing heart."

Is this because you think God controlling the cosmos, and a human put under the mind control of another are the same thing?

I don't. I think God is the life essense of existence. The foundation of time, space and matter. The fabric of processes. This is his domain. Seamingly ours and yours, but ultimately his. Seamingly free lives.

So when you step outside, the subatomic forces in your foot are controlled by your free will? How much lee way does God have in your 100% free will?

"To have this false image of yourself and of God you cannot possible know or discern the difference between the true God and the false god of this world;"

Because Satan loves the idea that God controls the universe?

"Satan/the Devil, with his host of evil spirits, which control and possess peoples' mind to make them do what he wills them to do. You've got it all backwards."

So when God commanded Satan to afflict Job, I had it backwards?

Alethes said:
Now I decisively choose by my God-given 100% freedom of will, which is my living proof, to no longer participate in this fruitless debate with you or anyone else who believes you have no choice to be totally illogical and damning in your understanding of God whose nature is all righteous, just and loving. I only hope that you will wake up before it is too late.

When pigs fly.

__________________

I was just rethinking what had been said here... aside from all this, I dont think it really matters whether a person believes free will \/ predestination. When you got the Jesus bug you got the Jesus bug.

JAL · Aug 2, 2008

RickOtto said:
Sin depends on intent.
Evil & sin would not exist if God didn't want them to.

No,that contradicts the concept of divine goodness. To avoid contradiction, we must hold that God was desiring for Adam and Eve to choose the good but they chose evil.

Values exist in contrast.

Without contrast, value is meaningless.
Good doesn't have meaning without it's opposite.

I disagree. That's almost like saying, if you have two kids, that communicating love to one of them means you must be cruel and evil to the other. What a grotesque way of thinking. By the way, is that how you parent your kids? Is that how YOU define love?

God could've created a "Nerf-Universe" where nobody gets hurt, & nothing ever goes wrong. Why didn't He?

Well, at least this argument has some merit. It is indeed a bit challenging. But perhaps I can make some resposnes.

(1) On another thread I argued that God made us with free will because He NEEDED to be loved. Maybe I'll find that thread and link you to it. Given this need for free will, we can now move on to point #2.
(2) Divine law (love) is understood as that which does no harm to one's neighbor. Free will is the ability to break that law. In a 'Nerf Universe' (a place where there is no possibility of harming one's neighbor), it would generally be impossible to break God's law.
(3) Breaking of the law - without consequences - is a very questionable way to raise kids. It's sort of like rewarding a kid for doing wrong. For one thing, this is inconsistent with God's justice. He punishes the guilty, or atones for their guilt. A just God cannot simply ignore wrongdoing.

toirewadokodesuka · Aug 2, 2008

JAL said:
No,that contradicts the concept of divine goodness. To avoid contradiction, we must hold that God was desiring for Adam and Eve to choose the good but they chose evil.

One must wonder though. If God sustains the subatomic particles of our hands, how he has nothing to do with evil?

JAL said:
I disagree. That's almost like saying, if you have two kids, that communicating love to one of them means you must be cruel and evil to the other. What a grotesque way of thinking. By the way, is that how you parent your kids? Is that how YOU define love?

This probably has nothing to do with what you saying, but whats that verse about Jacob and Esu, about loving and hating?

JAL said:
Well, at least this argument has some merit. It is indeed a bit challenging. But perhaps I can make some resposnes.

(1) On another thread I argued that God made us with free will because He NEEDED to be loved. Maybe I'll find that thread and link you to it. Given this need for free will, we can now move on to point #2.
(2) Divine law (love) is understood as that which does no harm to one's neighbor. Free will is the ability to break that law. In a 'Nerf Universe' (a place where there is no possibility of harming one's neighbor), it would generally be impossible to break God's law.
(3) Breaking of the law - without consequences - is a very questionable way to raise kids. It's sort of like rewarding a kid for doing wrong. For one thing, this is inconsistent with God's justice. He punishes the guilty, or atones for their guilt. A just God cannot simply ignore wrongdoing.

I think everything has consequences, but it pans out the way God intended. We live in the now. Got lives in the eternity. We seam to be free. God's busy sticking the protons and the eletrons in our thumb tight together so we dont explode... mixing the biological chemicals in our brains nicely so we dont go all numb....

Anyway. I believe there are 2 realities. Ours and Gods. In ours, there is no God, no predestination. In Gods there is God and predestination. So when God speaks to man, he holds back his presense and a lot of other things so as not to freak man out from the norms of his illusion. The more time we spend with God, and the better gurus we become, the more detached we will become to this weird world... and perhaps leave in the same manner as Enoch (highly unlikely tho lol).

JAL · Aug 3, 2008

[B said:
toirewadokodesuka[/b] ]

[B said:
Hmm, well you haven't actually given a verse that describes this idea in detail.

It's like if I say : the argahoptis ballon. What does argahoptis mean? Free will : what does free mean? Predestinated will. What does predestination mean? Well, I know predestination is described, but what of free?

Three of your arguments have been:
(1) What is free will? I'm not going to believe it if you can't define it with precision.
(2) I'm not going to believe it if you can't show me chapter and verse which define it with precision.
(3) I'm not going to believe it if you don't give me an absolute proof that men are free.

These objections - mere pretenses of scholarly objectivity - thinly veil your bias against free will. You're not fooling anyone. The truth is, you simply don't WANT to believe in free will.
I can expose this fact by simply showing how superficial are the three "objections" above. To begin with, you say you want proof. Let us therefore comprehend the pros and cons of proofs. A proof is built upon assumptions, which in turn need to be proven. This leads to the infinite regress of endlessly proving the assumptions, wherefore nothing can ever be proven. Strictly speaking, therefore, there is no such thing as an exhaustive proof. So stop hiding behind this silly "objection". (So much for the cons, now for the pros).
Does this mean that the concept of a proof has no merit? Not at all. GIVEN a set of assumptions, a proof can be used to show that a particular conclusion is consistent, or inconsistent, with those assumptions. This is the only type of proof that "works", and this kind of proof has already been supplied to you on this thread:
Assumption: God is just (he punishes only those who are truly culpable).
Conclusion: Therefore free will must exist, because if people had no free choice, they are hardly to blame for their behavior.
The above proof is quite lucid and compelling, so stop pretending that no proof has been furnished on this thread.

Now let's look at your second objection:
(2) I'm not going to believe in free will if you can't show me chapter and verse which define it with precision.
But that's like saying, "I'm not going to believe in the Trinity if I don't see this word in Scripture." The whole of Scripture seems to imply the Trinity. It definitely implies free will, for reasons already stated. Every command and prohibition given in Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, implies a degree of freedom in the believer. It is therefore difficult to conceive of any doctrine possessing more scriptural suupport than free will.

And finally, let's consider objection #1.
(1) What is free will? I'm not going to believe it if you can't define it with precision.
Here you suggest that you are not required to believe in a concept if no one has furnished you an essentially EXHAUSTIVE definition. This is patently false. The conscience often imposes upon us an obligation to acquiesce to that which appears most certain among the possible beliefs, even when when none of the possible beliefs are 100% certain. Take for example matter. How to define it? As a particle, or as energy? I'm not sure. But does this lack of an exhaustive definition imply that I can, in good conscience, deny matter? Certainly not. Or take for example the human soul. Does my lack of an exhaustive definition exempt me from believing in it? Or again, consider the Trinity, or the incarnation, or the virgin birth, or heaven, hell, angels, etc. Does any lack of an exhaustive definition exempt me from belief?
You say you don't believe in free will. Really? I don't think you're being honest with yourself. Suppose an adult male raped and killed your 10-year old daughter. Honestly, can you imagine the possibility of feeling that he deserves some punishment for this deed? Heck, if I so much as slapped you in the face, you would probably be angry with me, or disappointed in me, based on suspicion that I could have refrained from the evil deed. Therefore I do not believe that you are being honest with yourself, in denying freedom. Again, the conscience imposes upon us an obligation to acquisce (at least tentatively) to that which is most certain. At times like these (i.e. when someone has done you wrong) I am quite confident that you feel much certainty about freedom. Therefore I hope you will be honest enough to at least admit that you OFTEN DO believe in freedom. It is only in debates like this one, where you permit yourself to deny freedom.

But since you keep asking for a definition of freedom, perhaps in a moment I will try to shed a little more light on the matter.

JAL · Aug 3, 2008

[/SIZE said:
toirewadokodesuka]
This probably has nothing to do with what you saying, but whats that verse about Jacob and Esu, about loving and hating?

Look, there is really no need for me to respond to this sort of objection. Its a moot point, because this passage already imposes upon both of us to resolve it. Why so? Because both you and I operate under the assumption that God is loving and just. Such a God does not hate. Therefore we both have an obligation in order to avoid contradiction to find a basis for interpreting this passage in a different way.

Precedent for doing so can be found, for example, in the statement where Jesus says, If anyone would be my disciple, he must hate his father, mother. Does the term hate in this context really mean hate? Of course not.

And you could cite dozens of similar verses, but I dont have time to debate every one of them with you. Again, these verses are moot, for the reasons just stated.

Ill say it again, it is precisely because of such interpretive errors that Greek and Hebrew analytics/grammar (i.e. exegesis) are not the most important tools for understanding Scripture. The most important tool is the law of noncontradiction. I believe in free will largely because denying it leads to contradictions.

toirewadokodesuka · Aug 3, 2008

JAL said:
Three of your arguments have been:
(1) What is free will? I'm not going to believe it if you can't define it with precision.
(2) I'm not going to believe it if you can't show me chapter and verse which define it with precision.
(3) I'm not going to believe it if you don't give me an absolute proof that men are free.

Well, if you treat this like a conversion crusade, I'm sure you will see it that way.

JAL said:
These objections - mere pretenses of scholarly objectivity - thinly veil your bias against free will. You're not fooling anyone. The truth is, you simply don't WANT to believe in free will.

I've already said on a number of occasions, I don't agree with the idea of 100% free will. There has been no unveiling. There has been no me fooling people, but rather people fooling themselves for not reading the thread properly.

(Green) Bit of a childish way of putting things.

JAL said:
I can expose this fact by simply showing how superficial are the three "objections" above.

'...the three [fabricated] "objections" above.'

JAL said:
To begin with, you say you want proof.

Well, if I go around telling people I have a green ball, but neglect to ever show anyone this green ball...

JAL said:
Let us therefore comprehend the pros and cons of proofs. A proof is built upon assumptions, which in turn need to be proven. This leads to the infinite regress of endlessly proving the assumptions, wherefore nothing can ever be proven. Strictly speaking, therefore, there is no such thing as an exhaustive proof.

Funny thing. I don't remember asking for an "exhaustive proof". I do however remember asking someone else for an explicit definition. I should've said : biblical definition, to avoid confusion sorry.

JAL said:
So stop hiding behind this silly "objection". (So much for the cons, now for the pros).

And maybe you should stop hiding behind personal judgements?

JAL said:
Does this mean that the concept of a proof has no merit? Not at all. GIVEN a set of assumptions, a proof can be used to show that a particular conclusion is consistent, or inconsistent, with those assumptions. This is the only type of proof that "works", and this kind of proof has already been supplied to you on this thread:
Assumption: God is just (he punishes only those who are truly culpable).

I think this is what is refered to as deductive / inductive reasoning.

It's what people resort to when a term is vague / when the context bears no / little light upon its meaning.

JAL said:
Conclusion: Therefore free will must exist, because if people had no free choice, they are hardly to blame for their behavior.

If you read this thread properly, you'll see I do believe in free will, just not 100%.

JAL said:
The above proof is quite lucid and compelling, so stop pretending that no proof has been furnished on this thread.

I could say the same thing, but I wouldn't, cus its kinda childish?

JAL said:
Now let's look at your second objection:
(2) I'm not going to believe in free will if you can't show me chapter and verse which define it with precision.
But that's like saying, "I'm not going to believe in the Trinity if I don't see this word in Scripture."

No, its like saying : "I'm not going to believe in the Trinity if I don't see [it defined] in scripture"

Meaning has less to do with words and phrases, more to do with structure and context. Its like when people clame "freely" or "free" or "choice" or "will" means > the doctrine of free will.

JAL said:
The whole of Scripture seems to imply the Trinity. It definitely implies free will, for reasons already stated.

God is just... he only judges those who are truly culpable... therefore humans have free will.

Thats nice and all, but it still doesn't tell me what God thinks free will is. Whether there actually is a doctrine of free will as taught in church?

JAL said:
Every command and prohibition given in Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, implies a degree of freedom in the believer. It is therefore difficult to conceive of any doctrine possessing more scriptural support than free will.

Which is why I believe in a degree of freedom. In our reality no human can force us to choose something, in the reality we do not see / comprehend, we cannot really say.

This is where the filler comes in : God is a just God, and therefore wouldn't force us to do anything. Therefore we have free will?

JAL said:
And finally, let's consider objection #1.
(1) What is free will? I'm not going to believe it if you can't define it with precision.
Here you suggest that you are not required to believe in a concept if no one has furnished you an essentially EXHAUSTIVE definition.

I'm not asking for your furnished def. I'm asking if theres a doctrine about it in the Bible (a biblical definition). I said there isn't one. And my point was that the notion was vague, not false... well, to a degree I believe the commonly taught free will is false.

Its kinda like secular existentialism, which is a kinda social system governments use to imply there's no such thing as God.

JAL said:
This is patently false. The conscience often imposes upon us an obligation to acquiesce to that which appears most certain among the possible beliefs, even when none of the possible beliefs are 100% certain. Take for example matter. How to define it? As a particle, or as energy? I'm not sure. But does this lack of an exhaustive definition imply that I can, in good conscience, deny matter? Certainly not. Or take for example the human soul. Does my lack of an exhaustive definition exempt me from believing in it? Or again, consider the Trinity, or the incarnation, or the virgin birth, or heaven, hell, angels, etc. Does any lack of an exhaustive definition exempt me from belief?

Obviously not.
Did I really say what you've told me I've been saying?

JAL said:
You say you don't believe in free will. Really? I don't think you're being honest with yourself.

I said I don't believe in a 100% free will.

JAL said:
Suppose an adult male raped and killed your 10-year old daughter. Honestly, can you imagine the possibility of feeling that he deserves some punishment for this deed?

This is working off the idea that if God sustains our existence, then nothing is punishible?

JAL said:
Heck, if I so much as slapped you in the face, you would probably be angry with me, or disappointed in me, based on suspicion that I could have refrained from the evil deed. Therefore I do not believe that you are being honest with yourself, in denying freedom.

I spoke of 2 realities. Ours and Gods. In ours there is freedom. In Gods, there is none.

In ours there is a form of punishment, in Gods there is his own form.

JAL said:
Again, the conscience imposes upon us an obligation to acquisce (at least tentatively) to that which is most certain. At times like these (i.e. when someone has done you wrong) I am quite confident that you feel much certainty about freedom. Therefore I hope you will be honest enough to at least admit that you OFTEN DO believe in freedom. It is only in debates like this one, where you permit yourself to deny freedom.

A form of freedom. I'm not talking about the freedom of our reality, talking about the freedom in eternity.

To me, when a person says we have 100% free will, its like saying :

A ball falling from the sky made itself fall from the sky.

JAL said:
But since you keep asking for a definition of freedom, perhaps in a moment I will try to shed a little more light on the matter.

If I haven't confused you even more?

Rick Otto · Aug 3, 2008

quote=JAL; No,that contradicts the concept of divine goodness.

It only contradicts the humanistic concept of God's goodness, not the scriptural concept.

To avoid contradiction, we must hold that God was desiring for Adam and Eve to choose the good but they chose evil.

Contradiction is believing God is not in control of His creation & confusion is equating desire with will.

I disagree. That's almost like saying, if you have two kids, that communicating love to one of them means you must be cruel and evil to the other. What a grotesque way of thinking. By the way, is that how you parent your kids? Is that how YOU define love?

Disagree, but do it sensibly and without goading. What I said is far simpler than the complications of your attempted example. You needn't caricaturize my statement or provoke me by questioning my parenting.

(1) God made us with free will because He NEEDED to be loved.

No scripture supports that. Hedesired to make His power & glory known, but desire is not need. That an almighty God would need anything is the essence of contradiction.

(2) Divine law (love) is understood as that which does no harm to one's neighbor.

Humanism again. God chastizes His children.

(3) Breaking of the law - without consequences - is a very questionable way to raise kids. It's sort of like rewarding a kid for doing wrong. For one thing, this is inconsistent with God's justice. He punishes the guilty, or atones for their guilt. A just God cannot simply ignore wrongdoing.

So then the harm of punishment is an expression of divine love.

squint · Aug 3, 2008

It's a pity to reduce a discussion of Adam and sin to the typical pithiness of freewill/predestination arguments. Those arguments are well established and BOTH of course full of holes from the traditional debates and for reasons that many will never see or understand.

When The Word as Perfection arrives onto the scene to this very day RESISTANCE also arises. This transpired in the Garden and this same phenomena STILL transpires. Satan arrives on the scene to "cause" confusions.

IF Adam by his own freewill could have ERADICATED Satan/serpent Adam COULD have done so but THAT was not possible for Adam nor is it possible by the exercise of freewill today to excise Satan from the will.

Jesus Himself ADVISED us all that where The Word is sown SATAN COMES IMMEDIATELY...to STEAL His Words.

Now just WHERE do you really think the THEFT transpires but in THE MIND??? Hello...So IS your MIND, anyperson's MIND free of this THEFT of THOUGHTS??? No! It's a PROMISE from Jesus that THIS WILL TRANSPIRE...and the silliness of this FACT is that those who uphold "freewill" CANNOT even ACKNOWLEDGE the FACT and think their MINDS are FREE of that INTERFERENCE....just ignorant thinking that is IMPOSED by that very THIEF in order to CONDEMN other people at the expense of the obvious. I'd don't EVEN blame the "proponents" of FREEWILL for their supposedly FREE OF MIND ignorance in this matter.

The mind of mankind is NOT FREE of God's Will being IMPOSED upon their minds nor are mindkinds will's FREE of Satanic IMPOSITIONS, some even PUT THERE by God...

Satan ENTERED Judas in order for both SATAN and Judas to PLAY their intended ROLES to be involved in the KILLING of God's Own Son. In the case of Judas this FATE transpired before he was ever born and there was NO amount of "freewill" that was going to CHANGE THAT FACT FROM GOD. And if a "freewiller" simply says GOD KNEW what was going to happen in advance and that Judas was FREE of Satan's influences in these matters...well, how can people ignore the obvious??? Satan ENTERED Judas no differently than SATAN entered ADAM and EVE....by having ACCESS to their MINDS and God GAVE Satan that access in the construction of ALL mankind. All have sin and those who do so are OF THE DEVIL.

enjoy!

squint

toirewadokodesuka · Aug 4, 2008

Secularism is partly to blame for this. Children are taught there is no such thing as God / demons. And when a person commits murder, there are one of 3 options : guilty, innocent or insane.

It seams in Christianity, a lot of people adopt a similar sort of attitute. Some, however like to substitute "insane" for demonic / angelic manipulation. I, for one, am A for that way.

There are times when I have acted like such a dummy towards friends / family, and wondered to myself where the heck that came from. Or I've done something SO proportionally stupid and bad, it makes my soul sink to my feet. I know I thought about doing it, but where did this though come from, and how did it manifest?

I think its a hammer-nail situation what you said squint. Beings in the afterlife have this amazing ability to tamper with the mind, memory, personality. Demons are very decieving and overpowering creatures. They will make you think they are part of your personality. They will speak to you, just like God speaks to us, and overpower our little thoughts with their own thoughts. So when it boils down to choosing something, the only choice you have is that seamingly dominating thought in your mind.

PS. Thanks for input squint. I don't usually think along these lines.

squint · Aug 4, 2008

toirewadokodesuka said:
Secularism is partly to blame for this. Children are taught there is no such thing as God / demons. And when a person commits murder, there are one of 3 options : guilty, innocent or insane.

It seams in Christianity, a lot of people adopt a similar sort of attitute. Some, however like to substitute "insane" for demonic / angelic manipulation. I, for one, am A for that way.

There are times when I have acted like such a d.... towards friends / family, and wondered to myself where the heck that came from. Or I've done something SO proportionally stupid and bad, it makes my soul sink to my feet. I know I thought about doing it, but where did this though come from, and how did it manifest?

I think its a hammer-nail situation what you said squint. Beings in the afterlife have this amazing ability to tamper with the mind, memory, personality. Demons are very decieving and overpowering creatures. They will make you think they are part of your personality. They will speak to you, just like God speaks to us, and overpower our little thoughts with their own thoughts. So when it boils down to choosing something, the only choice you have is that seamingly dominating thought in your mind.

PS. Thanks for input squint. I don't usually think along these lines.

You have spoken the truth about "all" of our "condition.

We are "all" presently "bound" with our enemies and "we" think it's just "us."

Not every "thought" is our own...IF any of us see that we pass from judgment unto our fellow man and see the "real" cause.

In "believerdom" there is more of this activity because we have been exposed to LOVE. What you think is only YOU is not.

enjoy

squint

Carey · Aug 4, 2008

h

toirewadokodesuka said:
Secularism is partly to blame for this. Children are taught there is no such thing as God / demons. And when a person commits murder, there are one of 3 options : guilty, innocent or insane.

It seams in Christianity, a lot of people adopt a similar sort of attitute. Some, however like to substitute "insane" for demonic / angelic manipulation. I, for one, am A for that way.

There are times when I have acted like such a d.... towards friends / family, and wondered to myself where the heck that came from. Or I've done something SO proportionally stupid and bad, it makes my soul sink to my feet. I know I thought about doing it, but where did this though come from, and how did it manifest?

I think its a hammer-nail situation what you said squint. Beings in the afterlife have this amazing ability to tamper with the mind, memory, personality. Demons are very decieving and overpowering creatures. They will make you think they are part of your personality. They will speak to you, just like God speaks to us, and overpower our little thoughts with their own thoughts. So when it boils down to choosing something, the only choice you have is that seamingly dominating thought in your mind.

PS. Thanks for input squint. I don't usually think along these lines.

You are wise for your age. :amen:

Phillipians 3 : 15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.

Daniel 12 : 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. 13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

Matthew 13 : 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'[a] 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter · Aug 4, 2008

Rick Otto said:
Rick Otto said:

He was as God said, "good", but not perfect.
He was just a man, there was devil on the loose & a woman involved.
How would that have affected your chances? (lol)

Click to expand...

Can't argue with that! That's the best line I've heard in a long time.

I think he didn't intend to sin, but was overcome by conflicting desires.
Give him some credit, he had expressed no interest or curiosity in forbidden fruit until the only God-given human companion he'd ever known & loved tempted him with it.

Click to expand...

Ah. The infamous, "It was all the woman's fault" arguement. Adam tried that one already. God didn't wink.

God had to will His son be crucified. Does that make God guilty of conspiracy to comit murder? Yes it does. Are we then to charge God with evil motive?

Click to expand...

That's an interesting point. However, would you say that everything God wills comes to pass? Is there any room for God's will (on an individual/personal basis) to not be accomplished in a persons life? ie: A believer who commits suicide. Certainly wouldn't be God's will but there was a freedom for that person to choose.

Sin depends on intent.
Evil & sin would not exist if God didn't want them to.
God could've created a "Nerf-Universe" where nobody gets hurt, & nothing ever goes wrong. Why didn't He?

Click to expand...

Sure. I see that. But I feel that is more reason to believe in freedom. As in everything in life God has given us a choice. Creating a 'nerf' 'care free' universe would be just as imprisoning as God imposing on a persons will so that they would believe in Him.

Values exist in contrast.
Without contrast, value is meaningless.
Good doesn't have meaning without it's opposite.

Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. The tension here to be held in contrast is sovereignty and freedom. Can they both exist together? Absolutely.

Why would God give Isreal a law He knew they could not fulfill?

Click to expand...

To show them their need for Him.

`BTW, which of the two groups on either side of this issue in this thread have been the most civil - tounged?

Click to expand...

Not sure. Haven't paid that much attention to it. I suppose some are using their freedom

as a cover-up to spew.

Go Cards!

toirewadokodesuka · Aug 4, 2008

Rick Otto said:
It only contradicts the humanistic concept of God's goodness, not the scriptural concept.

Contradiction is believing God is not in control of His creation & confusion is equating desire with will.

Disagree, but do it sensibly and without goading. What I said is far simpler than the complications of your attempted example. You needn't caricaturize my statement or provoke me by questioning my parenting.

No scripture supports that. Hedesired to make His power & glory known, but desire is not need. That an almighty God would need anything is the essence of contradiction.

Humanism again. God chastizes His children.

So then the harm of punishment is an expression of divine love.

A lot like a multi-billion dollar corporation. The boss has to use everything toward the good of his corporation and show true authority, otherwise he needs to be replaced. (Can't have a boss who doesn't know how to run / deal with things properly.

)

toirewadokodesuka · Aug 4, 2008

He was as God said, "good", but not perfect.
He was just a man, there was devil on the loose & a woman involved.
How would that have affected your chances? (lol)

LOL I only picked that up now

toirewadokodesuka · Aug 4, 2008

Carey said:
h

You are wise for your age.

Phillipians 3 : 15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.

Daniel 12 : 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. 13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

Matthew 13 : 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'[a] 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Thanks Cary, but only cus God has chosen to bless me

Alethes · Aug 4, 2008

The following is a statement that was recently made in this thread.

(Satan ENTERED Judas in order for both SATAN and Judas to PLAY their intended ROLES to be involved in the KILLING of God's Own Son. In the case of Judas this FATE transpired before he was ever born and there was NO amount of "freewill" that was going to CHANGE THAT FACT FROM GOD. And if a "freewiller" simply says GOD KNEW what was going to happen in advance and that Judas was FREE of Satan's influences in these matters...well, how can people ignore the obvious??? Satan ENTERED Judas no differently than SATAN entered ADAM and EVE....by having ACCESS to their MINDS and God GAVE Satan that access in the construction of ALL mankind. All have sin and those who do so are OF THE DEVIL.Elijah challenged the people to decide between God and Baal.)

Correction:
The Bible as a whole is clear that sin involves choice and choice involves freedom of will. God in His foreknowledge knew who would hear the Word and believe and who would not believe. He knew beforehand that Judas would decide, by the freedom of his own will, to betray Jesus. Judas allowed himself to be influenced by Satan and his lies.

Notice how there are no Scriptures to support the claim made in this statement. What we have are the words of men only.

The anti free will people believe that God is a "fatalist." Fatalism is the term used, which says that you have no choice. Things happen to you, so why stew about it, it's going to happen anyway and you can't do anything about it. That is fatalism. And fatalism of course has grown out of the teaching of predestination, foreordination, and what is the wrong dividing of God's Word.

Let's look at how the anti-free will people perceives the following Scriptures.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20:
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

God said what? "Choose" life, which is the right choice. The anti-free will people distort this verse and says you do not have the freedom of will to choose life. God has already pre-determined who He wants to have life / blessing and who He wants have death / cursing. This is not th truth of God's Word and is therefore a lie. A logical mind would ask the question, "Why would God tell them to choose life or death if they have no freedom of will to choose?

Joshua 24:15:
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

God says if it seem evil unto to serve the LORD "choose" you this day whom you will serve. The people say: You do not have the freedom of will to choose whom you will serve because God has already pre-determined who will serve HIM and who will serve false gods. Again, why would God tell them to choose whom they will serve if they do not have the freedom of will to choose?

The anti-free will people have been blinded by Satan and therefore have no true spiritual understanding of God nor of His Word and therefore wrongly divide many passages of Scripture.

It is very sad and unfortunate that as adults (maybe not all), they do not know the simple meaning of the word choose.

Choose = to make a decision or selection, to select freely and after consideration, to select from two or more alternatives, to indicate a preference, to approve, vote, Ex. Instead of living by man's doctrine, he chooses to live by the Doctrine of God's Word. Or, He chooses to read the Bible instead of watching TV. Or he choose to obey God and not steal or he chooses to steal, etc., all by the freedom of his own will.

1 Kings 18:21-22:
And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word. 22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men.

Here is what the anti free will people do with this verse: "...How long halt ye between two opinions? Don't you know I have already decided who I want to serve Me and who I want to serve Baal." As Mr. Spock would say; "not logical Jim."

Joshua 24:15:
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Here is what they do with this verse. "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD do not choose whom ye will serve because God has pre-determined who will serve the false gods and who will serve the LORD."

Jeremiah 21:8:
. . . I set before you the way of life, and the way of death.

Those who do not believe God gave man freedom of will to choose read this verse to say, "I have pre-determined who will walk in the way of life and who will walk in the way of death. Now if God has determined before any of them were even born who should walk in the way of life and who should walk in the way of death why would set two different ways or choices before the people? The kind of logic the anti-free will people have is unsound because it is not based on the sound doctrine of God's Word.

God did not make man to be like puppets on a string, or programmed robots without a mind. God is not a fatalist, because God is love, just and righteous in all His ways. God so loves all mankind that He would risk rejection.. God's desire is to have children who willingly and genuinely desire from their heart to love Him for Who He truly Is: all Good, all Loving, all Holy, all Pure, all Righteous, and all Just.

The question asked on this thread is "How was Adam able to sin, if he wasn't created with sin? The answer is that even though God made Adam and Eve without sin, He did not make them to be moral robots. God gave them free will to disobey and therefore they had a genuine choice between right and wrong. They could choose to do right or to do wrong.

Adam and Eve were the first two people God created with freedom of will. God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan deceived Eve and influenced Adam to willfully sin against God.

Satan continues to this day to use a similar ploy to get man away from the one true God. However, The Truth of God's matchless and sure Word will prevail over the lies of the Adversary spoken on the lips of men.

Epiphoskei · Aug 4, 2008

Alethes said:
Correction:
The Bible as a whole is clear that sin involves choice and choice involves freedom of will. God in His foreknowledge knew who would hear the Word and believe and who would not believe. He knew beforehand that Judas would decide, by the freedom of his own will, to betray Jesus. Judas allowed himself to be influenced by Satan and his lies.

Now where does the scripture say that? Sin clearly involves choice, but choice does not demand "free will." This is the objection that has been raised over and over and over again, which has never recieved a satisfactory answer. Where does the scripture teach that the choices we have been given are only legitimate if they come from autonomy? It doesn't. It says we have a choice, and I'm afraid the scripture ends there. You cannot simply import your entire philosophy into that passage only because you cannot, from inside that philosophy, see a way in which choice can be choice without autonomy. Your philosophy is the very thing which is in question. You cannot presuppose it. That's called begging the question.

Alethes said:
The anti free will people believe that God is a "fatalist." Fatalism is the term used, which says that you have no choice. Things happen to you, so why stew about it, it's going to happen anyway and you can't do anything about it. That is fatalism. And fatalism of course has grown out of the teaching of predestination, foreordination, and what is the wrong dividing of God's Word.

Do we really? Is that what I believe? Someone should have told us that!

Let us say what we say and define our own beliefs. We believe (If I may speak for the bulk of us) that predestination and even determinism do not in any way impair a man's will, or render his decisions illegitimate, external, forced, compelled, etc., etc. Now, if you want to tell us that that's illogical or inconsistant, feel free, but do us the service of allowing us to define our own beliefs.

Alethes said:
The question asked on this thread is "How was Adam able to sin, if he wasn't created with sin? The answer is that even though God made Adam and Eve without sin, He did not make them to be moral robots. God gave them free will to disobey and therefore they had a genuine choice between right and wrong. They could choose to do right or to do wrong.

Adam and Eve were the first two people God created with freedom of will. God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan deceived Eve and influenced Adam to willfully sin against God.

That answer doesn't work. If this supposed "free will" is the source of sin, sin will exist as long as humans will. Or won't we have free will in the resurrection?

Alethes · Aug 4, 2008

Epiphoskei said:
Now where does the scripture say that? Sin clearly involves choice, but choice does not demand "free will." This is the objection that has been raised over and over and over again, which has never recieved a satisfactory answer. Where does the scripture teach that the choices we have been given are only legitimate if they come from autonomy? It doesn't. It says we have a choice, and I'm afraid the scripture ends there. You cannot simply import your entire philosophy into that passage only because you cannot, from inside that philosophy, see a way in which choice can be choice without autonomy. Your philosophy is the very thing which is in question. You cannot presuppose it. That's called begging the question.

Do we really? Is that what I believe? Someone should have told us that!

Let us say what we say and define our own beliefs. We believe (If I may speak for the bulk of us) that predestination and even determinism do not in any way impair a man's will, or render his decisions illegitimate, external, forced, compelled, etc., etc. Now, if you want to tell us that that's illogical or inconsistant, feel free, but do us the service of allowing us to define our own beliefs.

That answer doesn't work. If this supposed "free will" is the source of sin, sin will exist as long as humans will. Or won't we have free will in the resurrection?

If you do not believe God created man with the freedom of will to choose to obey or disobey Him then you also believe God predestinates who will go to heave or to hell before they are even born since they do not have any choice in the matter.

I think you need to explain what it is that you exactly believe, and to have Scripture to support what you believe. I also suggest that you please read all my posts on the subject matter if you decide to get back with me, as I do not wish to repeat myself over and over again.

Bless you.

Epiphoskei · Aug 4, 2008

Alethes said:
If you do not believe God created man with the freedom of will to choose to obey or disobey Him then you also believe God predestinates who will go to heave or to hell before they are even born since they do not have any choice in the matter.

Thus proving my previous point. I do not believe "they do not have any choice in the matter." It's pointless to even begin a discussion when you will not allow me to believe what I actually believe.

How was Adam able to sin, if he wasn't created with sin?

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