Who Are We Supposed To Be Looking For???

Leah · Jul 17, 2008

Where in the bible does it tell us to look for this Antichrist when 2 Thessalonians tells us that he will be revealed in his own time??

Aren't we to look for our Lord, Jesus Christ instead? And isn't the Holy Spirit the one who leads us into all the truth (John 16:13-14)?

garry2 · Jul 17, 2008

Imana said:
Where in the bible does it tell us to look for this Antichrist when 2 Thessalonians tells us that he will be revealed in his own time??

Aren't we to look for our Lord, Jesus Christ instead?

Click to expand...

And isn't the Holy Spirit the one who leads us into all the truth (John 16:13-14)?

Yes we are told many times to be watching for Christ.

Type watch and watching into a Bible search engine and see how many verses come up where we are told to be watching for Christ, just in the NC alone.

Heres just two.

Revelation 3
3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

The "I" here is Jesus who we are to watch for and who will come upon us as a thief, if we do not watch for him.

Even though the verses are plain some still say it's satan we are to be watching for.

Some of these people don't beleive in a catching up to Christ in the clouds, in the air, they only see a gathering to Christ at His coming, an event post of rapture.

Some people don't see it I beleive because they don't want to go to heaven, they wan't their lives on earth.

There will be those in Heaven and those that will be ruled over until the new Jerusalem, heaven and Earth.

If their fortunate they may get their lives on earth, but they will have to overcome tribulation far greater than the earth has ever seen.

Sorry I didn't provide a lot of scripture, havn't had time.

Mark 13
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

When certain things happen we can know from scripture approximately when Christ returns. (the second coming)

Mark 13:35 is talking about christ coming for His Bride, the time is not known.

We know it's before judgment and wrath (end tribulation) and many watchers beleive it is close.

zeke37 · Jul 17, 2008

Imana said:
Where in the bible does it tell us to look for this Antichrist when 2 Thessalonians tells us that he will be revealed in his own time??

revealed in his own time? what does that mean to you? it is not written that way...Satan would rather NOT be revealed for who he is, that son of Perdition....Satan who is the antiChrist, has nothing to do with it. God determines that time, and no man knoweth the hour...

At Jesus' Coming, Christ Himself is the One that reveals to the world, that the one they have been worshiping the last few months is really Satan in disguise, come to deceive the world.....not Jesus as they thought...deceived wholey seduced bride...

we are warned so many times, in many ways, to first watch for the enemy, to be a watchman for our people....so the robber doesn't come and mess up your house...because the robber will come when the Master is away....

2Thes2 tells us specifically that the son of Perdition/man of sin (Satan cast to earth - Rev12) must be here first, wanting the world to worship him as God...before the Gathering to Christ...it is really strait forward.

if the deceiver does come first, you should be on guard for him right???

Now that means never taking your eyes off of the real Christ, or the Word of God. And we are specifically told to wait, and after that time THEN look for HIM....for the Gathering happens after that tribulation....not before....Mat24:27-29, Mar13:24-27

it is when the dead are brought back here with Christ......you really don't think that the dead in Christ, leave heaven with Jesus, come here for a fly by, beam up a bunch of so called good folks, and then split back to heaven with them? isn't that just a little bit redundant?

the Gathering to Christ is when the dead return to earth with Him...the elect in heaven.....

and are gathered together with the elect alive at the time, who are changed to be like them in their new spiritrual(but quite physical as the angels bodies are) bodies...

so since the fake Jesus comes here first (Rev6:2, Rev13:11) before the real Christ...to fool us all if it be possible...we should be aware of the fact that while we are in the flesh, Christ has not yet returned.

pinch yourself and if it hurts, Jesus is not here yet, period.

Aren't we to look for our Lord, Jesus Christ instead?

after that time of trouble, then we are to look for His physical Appearance...but we are specifically told NOT to look for Him until AFTER that end time tribulation called the hour of temptation that must come upon the whole world. don't look for Christ here on earth..not in the dessert, or in the back rooms...or the synagog....etc...no where....

And isn't the Holy Spirit the one who leads us into all the truth (John 16:13-14)?

Yes, and the Word is where we learn about God, His flesh Image, and His Spirit....there are many false teachers out there, and the vast majority of believers are fooled in more than just the timing of Christ's return.

to not want to be here in that time, says a lot...it says what you have been taught about God, and IMO ignores ALL the biblical types we have for these end days.

Satan is the Abomination of Desolation...as he will claim to be Christ returned....and fool the entire world, all but the elect...who are sealed witht he truth and know who is who and Who is Who.

Satan comes first....as Rev12 likewise says...as Satan is to be cast to the earth and go after the woman....

Christ reveals him to the world for who he is....defeats him at His Coming,

and all the fooled Christians will hide in caves and mountains, be so ashamed for what they have done....

some will truly repent, some will not...

that is what the Millennium is for.

in His service
c

garry2 · Jul 18, 2008

zeke37 said:
At Jesus' Coming, Christ Himself is the One that reveals to the world, that the one they have been worshiping the last few months is really Satan in disguise, come to deceive the world.....not Jesus as they thought...

Not at all Bibical.

deceived wholey seduced bride...

And again that is not from the Bible, nowhere is it said that satan deceives and seduces the bride.

The Bride is caught up to Christ in the clouds in the air.

in His service
c

....

Bible2 · Jul 18, 2008

Imana posted in message #1:

Where in the bible does it tell us to look for this
Antichrist when 2 Thessalonians tells us that he
will be revealed in his own time??

We are not to look for the Antichrist, but we are to
be aware that he is coming. We won't know for sure who
the Antichrist is until he is unambiguously revealed
by his sitting in a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem
and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4).

But there will be some pretty good hints prior to
that event which will suggest who the Antichrist could
be. For example, the gematrial numerical values of the
letters in his name could add up to 666 (Revelation
13:17b-18), where the letters A through I equal 1
through 9, the letters J through R equal 10 through 90
(counting by 10's), and the letters S through Z equal
100 through 800 (counting by 100's); so that, for
example, the name "Fox" equals 6 + 60 + 600, or 666.

Another good hint will be when he "cuts" a seven-year
peace treaty with a false Orthodox Jewish Messiah
who will be ruling Jerusalem (Daniel 9:26-27), after
the Antichrist attacks and defeats that Messiah
(Daniel 11:22-23).

Another good hint, shortly prior to this, will be
when he is given power (Daniel 11:21) over a three-
nation confederacy consisting of three of ten major
nations arisen on the former territory of the Roman
Empire (Daniel 7:24). For example, he could be given
power over a Baathist confederation of Iraq, Syria
(including "Palestine", i.e. a defeated Israel), and
Egypt put together by force of arms by a Baathist
predecessor of his (Daniel 11:15-17; in v. 17 the
Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

He could come out of Tyre, Lebanon (Ezekiel 28:2,
cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

He could be a Druze Arab named "Hakim", the Druze
Arabs being a numerically "small people" (Daniel
11:23) who are waiting for a God-man named "Hakim"
to return and take over the earth.

He could be an extremely intelligent and discerning
(Ezekiel 28:3) billionaire businessman (Ezekiel
28:4-5), for example, involved in massive
construction projects.

Imana posted in message #1:

Aren't we to look for our Lord, Jesus Christ
instead?

We are to be "looking for" our Lord, Jesus Christ
(Titus 2:13), but the original Greek word translated
as "looking for" doesn't mean staring with our eyes
with the hope of seeing something at any moment.
Instead, it simply means "waiting for", for Jesus
can't come at any moment. He can't come until at
least two events happen first (2 Thessalonians
2:1-4). For His coming and gathering together of the
Church must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians
2:1,8). That's why His coming to gather together the
Church won't be until after the tribulation (Matthew
24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27), and why we will have to go
through the tribulation (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13,
Matthew 24:9-13).

Imana posted in message #1:

And isn't the Holy Spirit the one who leads us into
all the truth (John 16:13-14)?

Yes, including the truth regarding whether or not
someone is the Antichrist. And the Holy Spirit usually
employs the Bible to instruct us, so we should know
everything that the Bible teaches regarding the
Antichrist (e.g. Daniel 11:21-45, Revelation 13:4-18).

Imana posted in message #1:

Faith doesn't prevent life. Faith carries you through
life. - Paula White

"Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's
life consisteth not in the abundance of the things
which he possesseth" (Luke 12:15).

Bible2 · Jul 18, 2008

garry2 posted in message #2:

Yes we are told many times to be watching for Christ.

In the Bible, when we are told to "watch" for Christ,
the original Greek word doesn't mean to stare with
our eyes hoping to see someone appear at any moment.
Instead, it simply means to stay awake. We are to
stay spiritually awake as we wait for Jesus to return,
for if we fall spiritually asleep, that is, fall into
backsliding, there's no assurance that we will
recover our right relationship with Jesus before He
returns (Matthew 24:50-51), just as if we fall
physically asleep waiting for something to happen,
there's no assurance that we will wake back up in
time to see it happen.

garry2 posted in message #2:

Even though the verses are plain some still say it's
satan we are to be watching for.

We should always be watching for, in the sense of
being vigilant of, any attempt by Satan to trip us
up (1 Peter 5:8; 2 Corinthians 2:11).

garry2 posted in message #2:

Some of these people don't beleive in a catching up
to Christ in the clouds, in the air, they only see a
gathering to Christ at His coming, an event post of
rapture.

The rapture will be a "catching up" to Christ in the
clouds, in the air, at His second coming
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). The rapture is also
described as a "gathering together" of the Church to
Jesus at His second coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1,
Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

garry2 posted in message #2:

Some people don't see it I beleive because they don't
want to go to heaven, they wan't their lives on earth.

No scripture says that the rapture will take us into
the third heaven. All the Bible says is that the
rapture will take us into the sky (the first heaven)
to meet Jesus in the clouds, in the air, on His way
down to the earth at His second coming
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). The rapture will gather
together the whole Church, from every point on the
globe, to the one place in the sky above Jerusalem
where Jesus will be at His second coming. Then Jesus
will judge (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and marry
the Church (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, and then
the Church will mount white horses and descend back
down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus
(Revelation 19:14) to the earth to rule with Him on
the earth during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6,
5:10, 2:26-29).

After the millennium, the battle of Gog and Magog,
and the great white throne judgment, God will create
a new earth and descend in the heavenly city of
New Jerusalem to the new earth, to live with us on
the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3). So our hope is not
to live in heaven, but for God to live with us on the
new earth.

garry2 posted in message #2:

Mark 13:35 is talking about christ coming for His
Bride, the time is not known.

The time is known because Christ will come for His
Bride after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Mark
13:35, like Revelation 3:3b, means that we won't know
when He will come only if we don't stay spiritually
awake. We can know when He will come (Matthew 24:43),
for Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would reveal to
us all truth, including things to come (John 16:13).
Jesus could return the 1,335th day after the
abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation
16:15).

Mark 13:32 means only that in the past no man knew
when Jesus would come; it doesn't say "no man will
know" when He will come, just as "the things of
God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11) doesn't
mean that no man can ever know the things of God,
only that no man knows the things of God without the
help of His Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:12).

garry2 posted in message #2:

We know it's before judgment and wrath (end
tribulation) and many watchers beleive it is close.

The Bible nowhere says that the rapture will be
before the tribulation, or that when we go through
the tribulation we will suffer God's wrath, for
many of us who have obtained salvation will go
through the tribulation (Revelation 7:9,14), and no
one who has obtained salvation can suffer God's
wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). Nothing requires that
any of the events of the tribulation are God's wrath
except the vials of wrath at the very end of the
tribulation (Revelation 16), and none of these will
be directed at those who have obtained salvation,
who will still be on the earth waiting for Jesus'
coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15).

The tribulation could indeed be close. It could start
in 2010 with a nuclear war in the Middle East.

Bible2 · Jul 18, 2008

zeke37 posted in message #3:

Satan who is the antiChrist ...

Note that Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) isn't
the Antichrist (the beast), for they're two different
beings (Revelation 13:4, 16:13, 20:10).

zeke37 posted in message #3:

Satan is the Abomination of Desolation...

Actually, Satan isn't the abomination of desolation;
that's an event when the Antichrist will sit in a
rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim
himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4), and then leave an
image of himself in the temple to be worshipped
(Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

garry2 · Jul 18, 2008

Bible2 said:
In the Bible, when we are told to "watch" for Christ,
the original Greek word doesn't mean to stare with
our eyes hoping to see someone appear at any moment.
Instead, it simply means to stay awake. We are to
stay spiritually awake as we wait for Jesus to return,
for if we fall spiritually asleep, that is, fall into
backsliding, there's no assurance that we will
recover our right relationship with Jesus before He
returns (Matthew 24:50-51), just as if we fall
physically asleep waiting for something to happen,
there's no assurance that we will wake back up in
time to see it happen.

Like I said, and like the Bible says is we are told to watch.

We should always be watching for, in the sense of
being vigilant of, any attempt by Satan to trip us
up (1 Peter 5:8; 2 Corinthians 2:11).

The rapture will be a "catching up" to Christ in the
clouds, in the air,

Like I said.

at His second coming
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). The rapture is also
described as a "gathering together" of the Church to
Jesus at His second coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1,
Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

No scripture says that the rapture will take us into
the third heaven. All the Bible says is that the
rapture will take us into the sky (the first heaven)
to meet Jesus in the clouds, in the air, on His way
down to the earth at His second coming

Isaiah 26
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
The chambers are the mansions Jesus has orepared for the Bride.

These chambers are the mansions Jesus has prepared for the bride.

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). The rapture will gather
together the whole Church, from every point on the
globe, to the one place in the sky above Jerusalem
where Jesus will be at His second coming. Then Jesus
will judge (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and marry
the Church (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, and then
the Church will mount white horses and descend back
down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus
(Revelation 19:14) to the earth to rule with Him on
the earth during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6,
5:10, 2:26-29).

After the millennium, the battle of Gog and Magog,
and the great white throne judgment, God will create
a new earth and descend in the heavenly city of
New Jerusalem to the new earth, to live with us on
the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3). So our hope is not
to live in heaven, but for God to live with us on the
new earth.

The time is known because Christ will come for His
Bride after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Mark
13:35, like Revelation 3:3b, means that we won't know
when He will come only if we don't stay spiritually
awake. We can know when He will come (Matthew 24:43),
for Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would reveal to
us all truth, including things to come (John 16:13).
Jesus could return the 1,335th day after the
abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation
16:15).

Mark 13:32 means only that in the past no man knew
when Jesus would come; it doesn't say "no man will
know" when He will come, just as "the things of
God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11) doesn't
mean that no man can ever know the things of God,
only that no man knows the things of God without the
help of His Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:12).

The Bible nowhere says that the rapture will be
before the tribulation, or that when we go through
the tribulation we will suffer God's wrath, for
many of us who have obtained salvation will go
through the tribulation (Revelation 7:9,14), and no
one who has obtained salvation can suffer God's
wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). Nothing requires that
any of the events of the tribulation are God's wrath
except the vials of wrath at the very end of the
tribulation (Revelation 16), and none of these will
be directed at those who have obtained salvation,
who will still be on the earth waiting for Jesus'
coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15).

The tribulation could indeed be close. It could start
in 2010 with a nuclear war in the Middle East.

There is a lot of coulds.

Are you saying you don't beleive in a pre trib rap.

garry2 · Jul 18, 2008

Matthew 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Bible2 · Jul 22, 2008

garry2 posted in message #8:

Like I said, and like the Bible says is we are told
to watch.

But the Bible doesn't say to watch in the pre-trib
sense of looking for the coming of Jesus at any
moment; "watch" in the Bible, in relation to the
coming of Jesus, simply means to "stay awake",
spiritually.

The coming of Jesus to gather together (rapture) the
Church can't happen at any moment; Paul referred
specifically to two major events which have to happen
first: an apostasy (falling away) in the Church, and
the sitting of the Antichrist in a rebuilt Jewish
temple in Jerusalem proclaiming himself God
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-4). And then we'll have to
"watch" (stay awake, spiritually) all during the
Antichrist's reign (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13),
for Jesus' coming to gather together (rapture) the
Church must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians
2:1,8). So Jesus' coming to gather together (rapture)
the Church won't be until after the tribulation
(Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

garry2 posted in message #8:

"Originally Posted by Bible2
... The rapture will be a 'catching up' to Christ in
the clouds, in the air ..."

Like I said.

But the rapture won't be pre-trib, and it won't take
us into the third heaven, for after we've all been
raptured into the sky where Jesus will be
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), we'll be judged (Psalms
50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7)
in the sky before mounting white horses and descending
back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus
(Revelation 19:14) to rule on the earth with Him
during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10,
2:26-29).

garry2 posted in message #8:

Isaiah 26
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers,
and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it
were for a little moment, until the indignation be
overpast. ...

These chambers are the mansions Jesus has prepared for
the bride.

Actually, they aren't, for the mansions Jesus has
prepared for the Bride are in the Father's house (John
14:2), which is the heavenly city of New Jerusalem
(Revelation 21:2-3), which we won't live in until the
new earth is created and New Jerusalem descends down
to the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3), which won't
happen until after the millennium and the subsequent
events of the battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation
20:7-10) and the great white throne judgment
(Revelation 20:11-15).

If we were in the third heaven during the vials of
God's wrath on the earth (Revelation 16), then there
would be no need for us to hide (Isaiah 26:20b) from
the vials of wrath going on down on the earth. So
Isaiah 26:20 is referring to those of us who will
still be alive on the earth during the vials of God's
wrath, still "watching" (staying awake, spiritually)
for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). We
will have to build protective chambers (Isaiah
26:20a) for ourselves on the earth, just as Noah had
to build the ark to protect himself from the flood.

garry2 posted in message #8:

Are you saying you don't beleive in a pre trib rap.

The Bible doesn't teach one. It only teaches a post-
trib rapture.

Bible2 · Jul 22, 2008

garry2 posted in message #9:

Matthew 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your
Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house
had known in what watch the thief would come, he
would have watched, and would not have suffered his
house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour
as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Again, "watch" in the Bible, in the context of Jesus'
coming, simply means to "stay awake", spiritually; it
doesn't mean to stare up in the sky looking for His
coming at any moment.

Matthew 24:42 doesn't mean that we have to "watch"
(stay awake, spiritually) only if we don't know when
Jesus is coming, for Matthew 24:43 shows that even
if we do know when Jesus is coming, we still will
"watch" (stay awake, spiritually). So Matthew 24:44,
like Revelation 3:3b, applies only to those who have
given up on "watching" (staying awake, spiritually),
and have become backsliders; it is only such
backslidden people that Jesus will come upon as a
thief (Revelation 3:3b, contrast 1 Thessalonians 5:4),
when they aren't expecting Him (Matthew 24:44b), and
they will lose their salvation (Matthew 24:50-51,
Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 13:3).

We can know when Jesus will come, through His Holy
Spirit, who can reveal to us all truth and show us
things to come (John 16:13). When the Bible says
"no man knoweth" something (Matthew 24:36), this
means that "no man knoweth" that thing apart from
the revelation of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians
2:11b-12). God will do nothing without revealing His
secret to His servants the prophets (Amos 3:7). God
could have revealed to the prophet Daniel His secret
of the day He is going to send Jesus back: Jesus
could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination
of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

And even in the New Testament, Jesus tells us
directly that His coming to gather together
(rapture) the Church will be after the tribulation
(Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:27), just as Paul tells
us directly that Jesus' coming to gather together
(rapture) the Church can't happen until sometime
after the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians
2:1-4), for Jesus' coming to gather together
(rapture) the Church must destroy the Antichrist
(2 Thessalonians 2:1,8).

So even without Daniel 12:11-12, even if we didn't
know the day, we still could know that Jesus isn't
coming before the tribulation. That's why He tells
us everything about what will happen to us during
the tribulation (e.g. Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation
13:7-10, 14:12-13), so that we can "take heed" to it
all and not lose faith or be deceived during that
time (Mark 13:22-23, Revelation 13:13-18).

Big Mouth Nana · Jul 22, 2008

Bible2 said:
Again, "watch" in the Bible, in the context of Jesus'
coming, simply means to "stay awake", spiritually; it
doesn't mean to stare up in the sky looking for His
coming at any moment.

Matthew 24:42 doesn't mean that we have to "watch"
(stay awake, spiritually) only if we don't know when
Jesus is coming, for Matthew 24:43 shows that even
if we do know when Jesus is coming, we still will
"watch" (stay awake, spiritually). So Matthew 24:44,
like Revelation 3:3b, applies only to those who have
given up on "watching" (staying awake, spiritually),
and have become backsliders; it is only such
backslidden people that Jesus will come upon as a
thief (Revelation 3:3b, contrast 1 Thessalonians 5:4),
when they aren't expecting Him (Matthew 24:44b), and
they will lose their salvation (Matthew 24:50-51,
Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 13:3).

We can know when Jesus will come, through His Holy
Spirit, who can reveal to us all truth and show us
things to come (John 16:13). When the Bible says
"no man knoweth" something (Matthew 24:36), this
means that "no man knoweth" that thing apart from
the revelation of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians
2:11b-12). God will do nothing without revealing His
secret to His servants the prophets (Amos 3:7). God
could have revealed to the prophet Daniel His secret
of the day He is going to send Jesus back: Jesus
could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination
of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

And even in the New Testament, Jesus tells us
directly that His coming to gather together
(rapture) the Church will be after the tribulation
(Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:27), just as Paul tells
us directly that Jesus' coming to gather together
(rapture) the Church can't happen until sometime
after the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians
2:1-4), for Jesus' coming to gather together
(rapture) the Church must destroy the Antichrist
(2 Thessalonians 2:1,8).

So even without Daniel 12:11-12, even if we didn't
know the day, we still could know that Jesus isn't
coming before the tribulation. That's why He tells
us everything about what will happen to us during
the tribulation (e.g. Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation
13:7-10, 14:12-13), so that we can "take heed" to it
all and not lose faith or be deceived during that
time (Mark 13:22-23, Revelation 13:13-18).

WOW..miracles do happen!!! I actually agree with everything that you said here ^_^

Jesus didn't say that we wouldn't know the approximate time frame of His return. He gave us Matt 24 to follow like a road map. The next thing that I can see that is in line with the beginning of the tribulation is the abomination of desolation. Sure, His word states that no man knows the day nor the hour of His return, but we can pretty well be sure that when these things listed in Matt 24 follow in secession, it is close. I always found it odd that the bible states this..Dan 12:11-12 ~ And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12) Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Why would we be blessed coming to that particular day? Is it because we made it through that time, or because Jesus is returning? That is 45 days from the abomination of desolation being set up and us being blessed.

HisdaughterJen · Jul 22, 2008

Bible2 said:
We are to be "looking for" our Lord, Jesus Christ
(Titus 2:13), but the original Greek word translated
as "looking for" doesn't mean staring with our eyes
with the hope of seeing something at any moment.
Instead, it simply means "waiting for", for Jesus
can't come at any moment. He can't come until at
least two events happen first (2 Thessalonians
2:1-4). For His coming and gathering together of the
Church must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians
2:1,8). That's why His coming to gather together the
Church won't be until after the tribulation (Matthew
24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27), and why we will have to go
through the tribulation (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13,
Matthew 24:9-13).

Um...the born again believers will be taken up prior to judgment and wrath (judgment and wrath includes the anti-christ.)

Luk 21:36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Rev 3:10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Christ will appear for those who are born again and waiting for Him...ready to go. (Virgins with lamps filled with oil)

Everyone else will have to be tested. Those who endure will be rewarded at His physical return.

HisdaughterJen · Jul 22, 2008

Bible2 said:
But the Bible doesn't say to watch in the pre-trib
sense of looking for the coming of Jesus at any
moment; "watch" in the Bible, in relation to the
coming of Jesus, simply means to "stay awake",
spiritually.

There is no difference. IF you are awake spiritually, then you are on the watch, ready for Him to return.

The coming of Jesus to gather together (rapture) the
Church can't happen at any moment; Paul referred
specifically to two major events which have to happen
first: an apostasy (falling away) in the Church, and
the sitting of the Antichrist in a rebuilt Jewish
temple in Jerusalem proclaiming himself God
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-4). And then we'll have to
"watch" (stay awake, spiritually) all during the
Antichrist's reign (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13),
for Jesus' coming to gather together (rapture) the
Church must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians
2:1,8). So Jesus' coming to gather together (rapture)
the Church won't be until after the tribulation
(Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

The departure or gathering to Christ is what allows the revealing of the anti-christ. We are standing in the way. The devil gets booted out of heaven when we are caught up for his "short time" of 42 months. Look up the word "APOSTASIA". Paul was using a simile, in typical Paul fashion. APO means "apart" or "move away". STASIA means "place of standing". Paul said "to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord". That is a simile. He is doing the same thing in 2 Thess 2. The "gathering to Christ" is an "apostasia"...a DEPARTURE!

But the rapture won't be pre-trib, and it won't take
us into the third heaven, for after we've all been
raptured into the sky where Jesus will be
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), we'll be judged (Psalms
50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7)
in the sky before mounting white horses and descending
back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus
(Revelation 19:14) to rule on the earth with Him
during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10,
2:26-29).

The catching away is post-trib. We have all been enduring tribulation for the past 2000 years.

Act 14:22Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
It iwill happen pre-judgment and wrath and happens just before the sun/moon darken and STARS FALL because the heavens are shaken! (Satan and angels cast to the earth)

Actually, they aren't, for the mansions Jesus has
prepared for the Bride are in the Father's house (John
14:2), which is the heavenly city of New Jerusalem
(Revelation 21:2-3), which we won't live in until the
new earth is created and New Jerusalem descends down
to the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3), which won't
happen until after the millennium and the subsequent
events of the battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation
20:7-10) and the great white throne judgment
(Revelation 20:11-15).

There is a group of ISRAEL that is sealed and protected ON EARTH and there is a group of BLOOD-BOUGHT FIRSTFRUITS that is taken TO HEAVEN. REV 7, Rev 16

God gathers his consecrated ones to himself BEFORE judgment of the earth begins:

Psa 75:2When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.

Psa 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psa 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

WE ARE IN the NEW JERUSALEM as it is coming down out of heaven at the end of the millenium. WE were taken there 1000 years prior.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Think about what you are suggesting. You appear to be suggesting that there is no catching away...no habitation in the New Jerusalem until after the millenium.

If we were in the third heaven during the vials of
God's wrath on the earth (Revelation 16), then there
would be no need for us to hide (Isaiah 26:20b) from
the vials of wrath going on down on the earth. So
Isaiah 26:20 is referring to those of us who will
still be alive on the earth during the vials of God's
wrath, still "watching" (staying awake, spiritually)
for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). We
will have to build protective chambers (Isaiah
26:20a) for ourselves on the earth, just as Noah had
to build the ark to protect himself from the flood.

Only if you are not born again.

The Bible doesn't teach one. It only teaches a post-
trib rapture.

NONSENSE!

garry2 · Jul 22, 2008

It is nonsense.

garry2 · Jul 22, 2008

Bible2 said:
Again, "watch" in the Bible, in the context of Jesus'
coming, simply means to "stay awake", spiritually; it
doesn't mean to stare up in the sky looking for His
coming at any moment.

It does also mean to look, I agree with the verse.

Matthew 24:42 doesn't mean that we have to "watch"
(stay awake, spiritually) only if we don't know when
Jesus is coming, for Matthew 24:43 shows that even
if we do know when Jesus is coming, we still will
"watch" (stay awake, spiritually). So Matthew 24:44,
like Revelation 3:3b, applies only to those who have
given up on "watching" (staying awake, spiritually),
and have become backsliders; it is only such
backslidden people that Jesus will come upon as a
thief (Revelation 3:3b, contrast 1 Thessalonians 5:4),
when they aren't expecting Him (Matthew 24:44b), and
they will lose their salvation (Matthew 24:50-51,
Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 13:3).

We can know when Jesus will come, through His Holy
Spirit, who can reveal to us all truth and show us
things to come (John 16:13). When the Bible says
"no man knoweth" something (Matthew 24:36), this
means that "no man knoweth" that thing apart from
the revelation of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians
2:11b-12). God will do nothing without revealing His
secret to His servants the prophets (Amos 3:7). God
could have revealed to the prophet Daniel His secret
of the day He is going to send Jesus back: Jesus
could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination
of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

And even in the New Testament, Jesus tells us
directly that His coming to gather together
(rapture) the Church will be after the tribulation
(Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:27), just as Paul tells
us directly that Jesus' coming to gather together
(rapture) the Church can't happen until sometime
after the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians
2:1-4), for Jesus' coming to gather together
(rapture) the Church must destroy the Antichrist
(2 Thessalonians 2:1,8).

So even without Daniel 12:11-12, even if we didn't
know the day, we still could know that Jesus isn't
coming before the tribulation. That's why He tells
us everything about what will happen to us during
the tribulation (e.g. Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation
13:7-10, 14:12-13), so that we can "take heed" to it
all and not lose faith or be deceived during that
time (Mark 13:22-23, Revelation 13:13-18).

The verse says to watch, and looking is part of that.
In a storm when you see lightning flash across the sky, do you look, dosn't matter I do.

garry2 · Jul 22, 2008

Bible2 said:
Again, "watch" in the Bible, in the context of Jesus'
coming, simply means to "stay awake", spiritually; it
doesn't mean to stare up in the sky looking for His
coming at any moment.

Matthew 24:42 doesn't mean that we have to "watch"
(stay awake, spiritually) only if we don't know when
Jesus is coming, for Matthew 24:43 shows that even
if we do know when Jesus is coming, we still will
"watch" (stay awake, spiritually). So Matthew 24:44,
like Revelation 3:3b, applies only to those who have
given up on "watching" (staying awake, spiritually),
and have become backsliders; it is only such
backslidden people that Jesus will come upon as a
thief (Revelation 3:3b, contrast 1 Thessalonians 5:4),
when they aren't expecting Him (Matthew 24:44b), and
they will lose their salvation (Matthew 24:50-51,
Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 13:3).

We can know when Jesus will come, through His Holy
Spirit, who can reveal to us all truth and show us
things to come (John 16:13). When the Bible says
"no man knoweth" something (Matthew 24:36), this
means that "no man knoweth" that thing apart from
the revelation of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians
2:11b-12). God will do nothing without revealing His
secret to His servants the prophets (Amos 3:7). God
could have revealed to the prophet Daniel His secret
of the day He is going to send Jesus back: Jesus
could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination
of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

And even in the New Testament, Jesus tells us
directly that His coming to gather together
(rapture) the Church will be after the tribulation
(Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:27), just as Paul tells
us directly that Jesus' coming to gather together
(rapture) the Church can't happen until sometime
after the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians
2:1-4), for Jesus' coming to gather together
(rapture) the Church must destroy the Antichrist
(2 Thessalonians 2:1,8).

So even without Daniel 12:11-12, even if we didn't
know the day, we still could know that Jesus isn't
coming before the tribulation. That's why He tells
us everything about what will happen to us during
the tribulation (e.g. Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation
13:7-10, 14:12-13), so that we can "take heed" to it
all and not lose faith or be deceived during that
time (Mark 13:22-23, Revelation 13:13-18).

That's the second or third time you have posted this.
Are you in love with seeing your own posts all over the place?

Bible2 · Jul 24, 2008

Big Mouth Nana posted in message #12:

Jesus didn't say that we wouldn't know the
approximate time frame of His return. He gave us
Matt 24 to follow like a road map.

That's exactly right. At the very least we can know
that His coming will happen after the tribulation
(Matthew 24:29-31).

Big Mouth Nana posted in message #12:

The next thing that I can see that is in line with
the beginning of the tribulation is the abomination
of desolation.

Actually, the abomination of desolation won't happen
until two or three years into the tribulation, which
hasn't started yet. It will start with the war of
Revelation 6:4, which, with its aftermath of famines
and epidemics, will kill one-fourth of the world
(Revelation 6:8b).

Big Mouth Nana posted in message #12:

Sure, His word states that no man knows the day nor
the hour of His return, but we can pretty well be
sure that when these things listed in Matt 24 follow
in secession, it is close.

"... of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew
24:36) didn't mean that no man "will" know the day
and hour, for Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would
lead us into all truth and show us things to come
(John 16:13), and Paul said that the Holy Spirit
reveals to us the things of God that "no man knoweth"
(1 Corinthians 2:11b-12). And "Surely the Lord GOD
will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his
servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7). So God has revealed
the day of Jesus' coming to His prophets through the
Holy Spirit. This could be the case with Daniel
12:11-12, the meaning of which could have been sealed
unto the end time (Daniel 12:9), when our coming into
an understanding of it could help us greatly to endure
the coming tribulation. For if we know the day when
Jesus will come, we can be more patient during the
tribulation, and not lose hope.

Big Mouth Nana posted in message #12:

I always found it odd that the bible states this..
Dan 12:11-12 ~ And from the time that the daily
sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination
that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a
thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12) Blessed is
he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three
hundred and five and thirty days. Why would we be
blessed coming to that particular day? Is it because
we made it through that time, or because Jesus is
returning? That is 45 days from the abomination of
desolation being set up and us being blessed.

Daniel 12:11-12 could mean that we will be blessed if
we wait patiently for Jesus to come (cf. Revelation
16:15) on the 1,335th day after the abomination of
desolation.

When the Antichrist begins his 42-month reign
(Revelation 13:5b) at the abomination of desolation
(Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4), that means
that he will rule for 1,260 days (cf. Revelation
12:6b, 11:2b-3). At the end of these 1,260 days is
when the vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16) could
begin to be poured out. The first six vials could
be pouured out over 30 days, bringing us to the
1,290th day after the abomination of desolation,
which day is referred to in Daniel 12:11. It will be
on this 1,290th day after the abomination of
desolation that the blessing of Daniel 12:12/
Revelation 16:15 will be given to those of us who
are still alive on the earth, still waiting patiently
for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15).

That is, the blessing of Daniel 12:12/Revelation
16:15 will be given to us on the 1,290th day after
the abomination of desolation to encourage us to hang
on just 45 more days until the return of Jesus on
the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation
(Daniel 12:11-12). These 45 days could be taken up
with the gathering of all the armies of the world to
Armageddon (Har Megiddo, or Mount Megiddo in northern
Israel) in an attempt to fight Jesus at His return
(Revelation 16:14-16, 19:19).

Bible2 · Jul 24, 2008

HisdaughterJen posted in message #13:

Um...the born again believers will be taken up prior
to judgment and wrath (judgment and wrath includes
the anti-christ.)

Actually, not all born-again believers will be taken
up prior to the Antichrist's 42-month reign. Only
the 144,000 part of the Church, after the sixth
trumpet event, will be set apart from the rest of
the Church and caught up to the throne of God
(Revelation 12:5, 14:1-5), before the Antichrist's
42-month reign (Revelation 12:6).

The rest of the Church will remain on the earth and
either flee into the wilderness and be protected
during the the Antichrist's 42-month reign
(Revelation 12:6), or remain in the cities and be
martyred by Satan and the Antichrist (Revelation
12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).

Nothing requires that any of the tribulation is God's
judgment and wrath except the vials of wrath at the
very end of the tribulation (Revelation 16), and none
of these will be directed against the Church still on
earth, which will have gone into protective chambers
on the earth which it will have built for itself
(Isaiah 26:20), like Noah went into the ark he had
built for himself.

HisdaughterJen posted in message #13:

Luk 21:36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye
may be accounted worthy to escape all these things
that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son
of man.

Luke 21:36 isn't referring to the escape of a pre-
trib rapture, which the Bible nowhere teaches.
Instead, Luke 21:36 is referring to the escape of
dying before the tribulation begins (Isaiah 57:1),
and to the escape which many in the Church will
experience during the tribulation while still on the
earth by fleeing into the wilderness (Revelation
12:6), the mountains (Ezekiel 7:16), when they see
the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15-16).
We can still experience escape and stand before the
Son of Man (Luke 21:36) even if we go through the evil
day: "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God,
that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and
having done all, to stand" (Ephesians 6:13).

HisdaughterJen posted in message #13:

Rev 3:10Because thou hast kept the word of my
patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of
temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to
try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 3:10, like Revelation 2:10, is referring
to a first-century persecution which came upon all
the Roman world (cf. Luke 2:1b, Colossians 1:6).
Both Revelation 3:10 and Revelation 2:10 are
addressing local church congregations which existed
in the first-century Roman province of "Asia"
(Revelation 1:4, 11b).

HisdaughterJen posted in message #13:

Christ will appear for those who are born again and
waiting for Him...ready to go. (Virgins with lamps
filled with oil)

The coming of Christ in the parable of the virgins
in Matthew 25:10 is the same coming of Christ after
the tribulation in Matthew 24:29-31. That's why the
marriage doesn't take place until after the
tribulation (Revelation 19:7).

Bible2 · Jul 24, 2008

HisdaughterJen posted in message #14:

The departure or gathering to Christ is what allows
the revealing of the anti-christ. We are standing in
the way.

Actually, Christ's coming to gather together the
Church (2 Thessalonians 2:1), which will happen after
the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27),
is what will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians
2:8).

No scripture says that the Church is standing in the
way of the revealing of the Antichrist. The
restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 could simply be a
powerful angel, like the one that will restrain Satan
at the second coming (Revelation 20:1-3).

The departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), or
falling away (apostasia) of 2 Thessalonians 2:3,
refers to an apostasy which must occur in the Church
before Jesus can come to gather it together
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3).

HisdaughterJen posted in message #14:

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And
he said to me, These are they which came out of
great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and
made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:9,14 refers to those in the Church who
will come out of the tribulation and enter into heaven
by dying in the tribulation's seal events in the
chapter just prior (Revelation 6).

HisdaughterJen posted in message #14:

You appear to be suggesting that there is no catching
away...no habitation in the New Jerusalem until after
the millenium.

That's right. We won't live in New Jerusalem (as in
John 14:2) until it descends to a new earth
(Revelation 21:1-3), which won't happen until after
the millennium, the subsequent battle of Gog and
Magog (Revelation 20:7-10), and the subsequent great
white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

No scripture says that the rapture (or catching up)
will take us up to New Jerusalem; the rapture will
take us only as high as the clouds to meet Jesus on
His way down to the earth at His second coming
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After we've been judged
(Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married
(Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, we'll all mount
white horses and descend back down from the sky (the
first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) to reign
on the earth with Him during the millennium
(Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

Who Are We Supposed To Be Looking For???

2 Corinthians 5:21

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