Even Jesus did not heal at will ...

probinson · Jul 1, 2008

JimfromOhio said:
According to my faith, it will be given to me whenever God's decides. ...

But see, to say that is to COMPLETELY IGNORE some of the healings that took place during Jesus' time here on earth, most notably, this one;

Mark 5:24-34 (KJV)
24 And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him. 25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years, 26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse, 27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. 28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole. 29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague. 30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? 32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing. 33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

This account puts one HUGE hole in the theory that we'll get healed when GOD decides. This woman touched Jesus herself. She actively pursued Him in faith. Had she taken the "God will heal me when He decides" approach, then she would not have received her healing, because Jesus said to her, "Thy faith hath made thee whole". Further, Jesus didn't even know WHO had touched her, so it was not His decision to heal or not heal her.

This story shows Jesus' response to the woman's faith. All these people were thronging Jesus, but this one woman touched Jesus in faith and received her healing, so much so, that Jesus knew "virtue" had gone out of Him.

nephilimiyr · Jul 1, 2008

JimfromOhio said:
I did answer your question and perhaps you dismissed my answer. Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all in one. While Christ was on earth, He was submitting to Father and Holy Spirit. Concept of Trinity is important.

I was not ignoring your question and I would say you were ignoring my answer.

I saw both you replies to me and again, nothing that I was saying really had to do with the trinity. I told you this before. My thoughts were that I really don';t see a difference in will and desire and when God wills or desires something it is often shown in scripture that God doesn't always get what He desires or wills, at least not right away.

Yes the concept of the trinity is important but but pertaining to too much of what I was talking about. Thanks for not ignoring me however.Lol,

JimB · Jul 1, 2008

probinson said:
But see, to say that is to COMPLETELY IGNORE some of the healings that took place during Jesus' time here on earth, most notably, this one;

Mark 5:24-34 (KJV)
24 And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him. 25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years, 26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse, 27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. 28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole. 29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague. 30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? 32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing. 33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

This account puts one HUGE hole in the theory that we'll get healed when GOD decides. This woman touched Jesus herself. She actively pursued Him in faith. Had she taken the "God will heal me when He decides" approach, then she would not have received her healing, because Jesus said to her, "Thy faith hath made thee whole". Further, Jesus didn't even know WHO had touched her, so it was not His decision to heal or not heal her.

This story shows Jesus' response to the woman's faith. All these people were thronging Jesus, but this one woman touched Jesus in faith and received her healing, so much so, that Jesus knew "virtue" had gone out of Him.

I agree, sometimes God will respond to our need when we are willing trust Him (not our faith). This woman was desperate and her desperation drove her to Jesus no matter what. God responded by healing her and Jesus marveled that this woman was moved by such trust in Him. Her trusting faith made her whole because it drove her to Jesus and God graciously healed her.

And who says that God wasnt in the whole thing?

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

razzelflabben · Jul 1, 2008

probinson said:
Here you go.

Bumpity bumpity...

Good stuff!

I am really not sure why I respond to anything on the forum, when I do, I am either ignored or attacked, but I guess that is part of serving God, to be treated as He was. That being said, he goes.

The Word of Knowledge is a good manifestation of the Spirit - but why can't you just talk to the Father and have Him tell you out of your relationship with Him?

The manifestation of the Spirit is the fruit of the Spirit. Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfullness, Gentleness, Self Control. Most people don't get this, and yet it is ultra plainly and clearly stated. The question should not be what is the manifestation, but rather what are these things from a biblical understanding. But then again, I attack these questions from a biblical perspective with apparently is odd for the church today.

I don't pray for people's healings - there's no scriptural support for asking God in prayer to heal anyone. The disciples were not told to pray for peoples healings:

Luke 9:1 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.

there is a verse that says if any are sick among you let him call the elders ... laying on of hands... confession of sins...etc. I guess the point, is don't be to quick to claim that we are not to ask for healing, the problem is two fold, 1. we are to pray for the sick and 2. the healing of the sick includes the reconciliation of sins, last I checked, God was the only one who could forgive our sins. IOW's be careful with your claims.

Jesus didn't tell them to ask, Jesus said nothing about it being God's will or not - He simply gave them the authority and then told them to go heal the sick. And they did.

Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.

See above, but let's talk a bit further, this command was also specific to 72 others. (now, others are coming even in this post) We cannot apply something God specified to one and accept it as ours. In other words, God told Noah to build an ark, why aren't we all building arks. This passage isn't a command to us, it is a historical account of what God was doing.

72 OTHERS - not even the disciples - Jesus sent them out - to do what?

8"When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.'

again, we don't have to even deal with this as to todays world, we today are told to go and make disciples. Big difference in making disciples and healing the sick, in fact, few people even hear the words here, go and make disciples, they instead read thier own words into it, go and make converts. How it must grieve our Lord to see what the world is doing in His name, but with hearts far from Him!

Jesus didn't tell them to ask, Jesus said nothing about it being God's will or not - He simply gave them the authority and then told them to go heal the sick. And they did.

Acts 3:1 One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayerat three in the afternoon. 2 Now a man crippled from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those going into the temple courts. 3 When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. 4 Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, "Look at us!" 5 So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them. 6 Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." 7 Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong. 8 He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God. 9 When all the people saw him walking and praising God,

I have to say something here as well. the reports, some from people I personally know who have been witness, others from people who are reporting through other media, show that in countries where there is persecutions, more "miraculous" healing are taking place. Begs a couple of questions. This was a time in which there was much persecution, does that affect the healings? How or why does it affect the healings? Do we have the same mindset as Christ, or even Paul? Does that mindset affect the healings and how does persecution affect that mindset?

now these questions open up a whole big huge discussion that we haven't even touched on yet but let me offer this for you to ponder. Paul saw many wonders of God because He was willing to suffer for his Lord and King. Suffering allows us to grow in trust and Love for our Lord and KIng and allows others to see the wonders of a life no longer held by the confines and rules of this world. It is in suffering that Christ is made complete. Consider the passage where we are told to consider if pure joy to endure sufferings of all kinds, or the passages that tell us to share in the fellowship of His sufferings. It is when we put on these mindsets of humility that we begin to get a glimpse of our King, our God.

The man got healed by Peter's words and actions, but Peter NEVER asked God to heal him - Peter never asked if it was God's will to heal the man - he just used his authority and healed the man.

at God's command to do so, thus God's authroity and will.

That's what's missing today - that's where we are missing it!

The deep personal day to day relationship with God the Father through Jesus. So personal and so deep that we can instantly know His will and help people. So deep and personal that we interact with Father just like Jesus, the one we're called to imitate, did.

Agree, but we are also missing the command and authority of God. God's command to the church today is to make disciples, and to Love. All the healing you have talked about so far has been for individuals not the whole.

But instead of the multiple multiple examples of how Jesus and the disciples healed through this relationship-, we've reduced knowing God's will to trial and error -

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and nothing you have shown here shows and understanding of God and his relationship with us, what it shows is a lack of understanding on your part of who God is and what our relationship with Him should be.

Well, if we pray and we don't see them ......, God must be trying to teach them something - or it must not be God's will.

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now it seems like you are reading into things what is not there, but this is not my argument so I will leave it for those who claim this. My claim is that God's purpose is to marry the physical man to the spiritual man, however that can be accomplished is His to own, and His alone.

We have pastors in pulpits that admit they don't know what the will of God is, never seeing this:

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Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

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I love this passage, so here is the question for you, test your knowledge and wisdom. How do we renew our minds, how does transformation occur? What is necessary for transformation? If you respond, we can talk more about this, but my bets are on this being ignored or twisted and so I will leave it to you as a challenge you can do in your own privacy.

I've been thrown out of Word of Faith circles because I preached this hard. We're not just supposed to know His will - but prove it.

It's time we got off our high horse of (I think this might be why), and got on our knees and spent real time fellowshipping with the Father so we can train ourselves to hear His voice.

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I'm not even sure what you are trying to get at here. Give me more to go on and I will respond.

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JimfromOhio · Jul 1, 2008

nephilimiyr said:
I saw both you replies to me and again, nothing that I was saying really had to do with the trinity. I told you this before. My thoughts were that I really don';t see a difference in will and desire and when God wills or desires something it is often shown in scripture that God doesn't always get what He desires or wills, at least not right away.

Yes the concept of the trinity is important but but pertaining to too much of what I was talking about. Thanks for not ignoring me however.Lol,

Explain more about

"that God doesn't always get what He desires or wills, at least not right away."

in a way we can understand how not sovereign God is.

Trish1947 · Jul 1, 2008

razzelflabben said:
Where I agree with you on this matter, I reread my post and understood it the way I wrote it, maybe that is just because I know what I was saying, so let's try it this way. The man confesses and acts as if he believes he is healed, but when it comes right down to it, he falls back into alcohol and the sicknesses that come from that alcohol. Does that make better sense?

If it's an act that your healed, meaning you've come up with enough inward strength to stop drinking for a few days, is not the power of God in a persons life. The scripture says, "Whom the Lord sets free...is free indeed". You have either received it as the truth in your life, or you haven't. If you have received the power of Gods deliverance then there would be no reason to continue drinking. You would be denying the truth of that deliverance.

My brother-in-law was a cocaine addict, all the family prayed continuously for years for him to be delivered. But until He called on the name of the Lord himself, there was no deliverance. One day he did, and was immediantly delivered from cocaine. He never had another desire for cocaine. He might have been tempted in the flesh to join his old friends, and powder parties, but the knowledge of him being delivered had the pre-eminenence in his life from that day forward.

nephilimiyr · Jul 1, 2008

razzelflabben said:
I'm not Jim, but I'll give it a go.

Many people make the mistake of assuming to use the same premise as God does when they don't even know what God's purpose is. Do you know what God's purpose since the beginning of time was? Have you studied this yet? The bible tells us that God's purpose from the beginning of time and for eternity is that the natural man and the spiritual man would live in peace with one another. Be married to one another as it were. This happens when we yield the fleshly, evil desires of the flesh over to the spirit. Allowing the spirit to be the head, and the flesh to be in submission to that head. This can only occur through the Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe that is a small part of God's original purpose, yes, but just to add, God made Adam and Eve perfect and so originally there was no problem. The problems came after Adam and Eve sinned.

Now we can take this one step further yet. God's purpose in all this is that we will be blameless, pure, undefiled. In other words, God's purpose for man is not that man would never suffer, never know sickness, never... His purpose is that man would learn to yeild the old man to the spiritual man thus living as one, without war. If this is done through suffering so be it, if it is done through healing, that is cool to. The point is what event will bring this about for the individual but rather that the individual does this because of and through the Christ.

When I consider what God's "purpose" is I always look at how God originally created everything, i.e., God created everrything perfect. If Adfam and Eve never sinned they would've lived a life in a perfect state. What changed everything was there sin. Adam and Eve didn't know suffering, sickness, etc. at all until they sinned and forfieted the perfect world they were livinging in.

This may curl your toe-nails but yes, I do believe that originally God's purpose was for man to live without any sickness or any kind of suffering at all. And when this age is passed away we all will be living with God through eternity in the way God originally planned it and according to His will and desire....without suffering of anykind.

ple, learned to be content in both excess and want. Job learned to see God in prosperity as well as famine. Joseph saw God in slavery as well as a position of authority. On and on it goes. Even in my own life, I have seen God and learned to yeild to Him in both the good and the bad, the struggles and the seasons of plenty as it were. Over time we allow these situations to bring us a glimpse of God's wonders and His Love and we learn to see Love where we never used to think Love was. (btw, do you know what contentment means? In Paul's writings, it means to be confident that he can do even this)The desires of man's heart are only evil continually. This biblical concept gives us an interesting view of what God's desire is, His desire is that we would remain in fellowship with Him. That is, that sin would not exist. I don't see Him getting that, do you? God for the most part wants, desires, wills, the opposite of what man wants, desires, wills, so what would make us think even for a fleeting second that our desires, our requests would be the same as God's? It is only when we allow the Holy Spirit and that same spirits Love to transform us, to govern us, to direct us, that our wills, our desires will be the same. That is the point. It isn't our wills, our desires, nor was it Christ's wills and desires, but rather God's that brings about the unity of body and soul (spirit) into oneness, which is God's plan from the start to the finish.I see this theology and wonder what bible some are reading. At least from the standpoint of how it is being presented (practice may or may not present a problem) for example, you talk about God's desire that all who need healing will be healed. Actually the bible is pretty clear that all who come will be healed and that healing is spiritual in nature but that isn't the point I wish to discuss at the moment. The point I wish to discuss at the moment is that of God's purpose, His will. If you do a bit of study on the topic, you soon find that His purpose, His will, is that the physical man and the spiritual man would live in harmony. Therefore, all theology about God's will being healing, or wealth, or whatever we wish to make it, is ourselves and our fleshly desires, not the biblical understanding of who God is and what He desires for us.

I agree with alot of this, however not all and I'm sorry I just don't have the time to answer. I however, if you understand correctly what I have told you so far I think you will get the drift of where I'm coming from and probably don't have to say too much more anyway

.

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The point is this, when we go around inserting our desires, our wills in exchange for God's, our theology gets all messed up and with it comes a host of evils that few of us will ever in this lifetime understand the ramifications of. Now since this is specific about healing, let me say this. This does not mean that God does not heal, nor does it mean that God does not want to heal people. What it means is that God wants us to be complete, none warring individuals and He isn't afraid to use any means of obtaining that for us, not because He is evil, or harsh, or some other nonsence, but because His premise is an eternal one, not a temperal one. He functions in the temporal all the while living in and understanding the eternal one. Thus His ideas of healing are different than the temporal ideas of healing. His ideas of wealth are very different than our temporal ideas of wealth, etc. etc. etc. Until we begin to see things through the eternal eyes of God, all we are doing is trying to be like God and that is someplace I wouldn't want to be.

I don't see myself at all or in any kind of way inserting my desires in exchange for God's. I think that is a very narrow way for you to see how others disagree with you on this, although I wont argue that some may do as you say here, I don't however.

Thanks for your response, I'll be thinking of this latter forsure...

razzelflabben · Jul 1, 2008

Balance said:
I'm not P - I'm B -

I've asked this three time in two threads -

Luke 5 - the Word says plainly that the power of the Lord was present to heal them (the Pharisees and teachers of the law), Jesus was there -

why weren't they healed?

Now it really bothers me personally when people say their posts have been ignored, but I really don't know what you are asking here. I read Luke 5 just to make sure I knew what passage you were talking about. I reread it, and still I don't know what you are referring to. Here is the part that you are referring to.

17One day as he was teaching, Pharisees and teachers of the law, who had come from every village of Galilee and from Judea and Jerusalem, were sitting there. And the power of the Lord was present for him to heal the sick. 18Some men came carrying a paralytic on a mat and tried to take him into the house to lay him before Jesus. 19When they could not find a way to do this because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and lowered him on his mat through the tiles into the middle of the crowd, right in front of Jesus. 20When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."
21The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
22Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? 23Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 24But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." He said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." 25Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God. 26Everyone was amazed and gave praise to God. They were filled with awe and said, "We have seen remarkable things today."

Now a couple of things to point out. 1. the spirit of healing. Note that it was not always present, or at least that is the indication here.
2. the man in question was healed, but through the forgiveness of sin, already talked about previously.
3. They all rejoiced, they weren't worried about someone who was not healed, which says either they were all healed, or, they were so struck by the holiness before them that they didn't care anymore.

nephilimiyr · Jul 1, 2008

JimfromOhio said:
Explain more about

"that God doesn't always get what He desires or wills, at least not right away."

in a way we can understand how not sovereign God is.

I believe God desires that all will come to believe Him and be born again and spend eternity with Him. However, if you don't believe in "Universalism" then you know that in this case when God desires this, He isn't going to get what He wants. That's basically it.

Angel*Eyes · Jul 1, 2008

I actually agree with you more that I disagree with you.

JimfromOhio said:
Doctrinal teachings that teaches man can command the Holy Spirit at "will" to do miracles and healing, and God will obey. Why should God obey our will?

I completely AGREE with you. Like I said in another post "It's not about man-made knowledge, doctrines, or any formula to follow".

We cannot and should not command the Holy spirit at "Will' to do healings and miracles.For instance, it would be completely WRONG for me to just go into a hospital and command people to be healed in Jesus Name.

The key is DISCERNMENT.
I believe that God will lead me to the people who wants me to pray for and He will tell me WHAT TO SAY AND WHAT TO DO.

One day, my sister tells me that she saw a vision of us visting a little girl in the hospital and she saw herself laying her hands on the child's heart.

Guess what??

That night I received a phone call from the church and they wanted my sister and I to do a hospital visit for a little girl with heart problems. So, od prepared us before we went to the hospital. All I have to do is make myself available and let the Lord do the work !!!

If it is time for a person to go to the Lord, I believe that He'll let me know ... so I can just comfort the family.
Another example of discernment...
I've heard healing ministers, Charles and Francis Hunter, mention how at one service 3 different people with crossed eyes got healed in 3 different ways (one by the laying on of hands,one by speaking to the eyes, another was healed without being prayed over.I can't explain why all these people got healed in such different ways.

razzelflabben · Jul 1, 2008

probinson said:
But see, to say that is to COMPLETELY IGNORE some of the healings that took place during Jesus' time here on earth, most notably, this one;
Mark 5:24-34 (KJV)
24 And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him. 25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years, 26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse, 27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. 28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole. 29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague. 30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? 32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing. 33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

This account puts one HUGE hole in the theory that we'll get healed when GOD decides. This woman touched Jesus herself. She actively pursued Him in faith. Had she taken the "God will heal me when He decides" approach, then she would not have received her healing, because Jesus said to her, "Thy faith hath made thee whole". Further, Jesus didn't even know WHO had touched her, so it was not His decision to heal or not heal her.

This story shows Jesus' response to the woman's faith. All these people were thronging Jesus, but this one woman touched Jesus in faith and received her healing, so much so, that Jesus knew "virtue" had gone out of Him.

What is shows us when we add it to all the other passages, is that God will use whomever, whatever, wherever He wants to accomplish His will. But I must be going to the night. I should be back tomorrow.

Angel*Eyes · Jul 1, 2008

JimfromOhio said:
I am NEVER comfortable telling people about such doctrines and I don't want to be responsible for decieving another person when I share the good news of eternal salvation.

I agree and understand what your saying.

I don't want to give people FALSE HOPE or a FALSE UNBELIEF in God's power.

I've been expressing myself a lot lately in this forum, but in real life I just point people to God's love and just believe that God's best for them will come to pass.

JimfromOhio said:
When one don't know why one is not healed, it is better not to explore or try to understand by creating doctrines.

I agree. Leaning on to your own understanding and trying to "reason" things out only leads to confusion.

nephilimiyr · Jul 1, 2008

Jimbeaux said:
Of course Jesus, while He was on earth, had a separate will from the Father or else He would not have been truly human nor would He have had to learn to obey (Heb. 5.8). But though their wills were separate, does not mean that they were opposite. In fact, Jesus was perfectly obedient and willed to do the will of the Father.

I agree with you on that 100%

But I am not sure you can scripturally prove (without threading scripture) that it is always God’s will, in every instance, to heal. There is no scripture that unambiguously says that. It is a belief that has become dogma among Pentecostals thanks to Russell Kelso Carter c.1884.

I agree that it would be hard to find a verse in the Bible stateing "unambiguosly", at least to satisfy you and alot of others, that it is always God's will to heal everybody in need. I do look at the totality of scripture and have made my conclusions.

I think it important to point out that just because I see that it is God's will that everybody in need be healed but that what God desires or wills doesn't necessarily mean that God is going to get what He wants. As I pointed out above in another post; I believe God wills and desires that all may recieve salvation, but will all recieve salvation? NO, some will but others wont and they will have to suffer torments in hell because of their unbelief and or refusal to accept Jesus Christ as Lord.

Ok, so I also see this pertaining to physical healing in that, even though God may desire that all who need healing may recieve it but God isn't going to get what He desires all the time. Why? I think I know part of the reason why, alot of it has to do with the people who will recieve the healing. God can wish for them to recieve it but if they refuse it? Alot of people refuse the gift of salvation, can people also refuse the gift of physical healing? I think so. I think there are mulitple reasons for why a person will not recieve healing.

Again, I'm not making a total arguement here, just writting down some thoughts and my opinions.

JimfromOhio · Jul 1, 2008

nephilimiyr said:
I believe God desires that all will come to believe Him and be born again and spend eternity with Him. However, if you don't believe in "Universalism" then you know that in this case when God desires this, He isn't going to get what He wants. That's basically it.

How do you explain this:
Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

God's divine circumstances (such as blessings or sufferings) can turn or don't turn people to God. People may despise it instead of embracing it. One of the greatest and most essential attributes of God is His sovereignty; God rules over all things and controls all things. God also uses providence to accomplish His will in the world. God directs and uses events to accomplish His own Will which meant: "the providence of God." Romans 8:28 says, "We know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." All things are controlled by God to work together to fulfill His eternal purpose for His Will.

The book of Esther show how God controls history through providence. There isn't a miracle in the book and the name of God isn't mentioned but at the same time, without anyone realizing that God is always in control of every single event in this world. The king mentioned in Esther favored Esther and Mordecai, spared all the Jewish people, made Mordecai the Prime Minister and hanged Haman on the gallows he build himself for the Jewish people and preserved the nation Israel. Hadassah, "myrtle" in Hebrew (Esther 2:7), or Esther, "star" or "Ishtar" in Persian.

Often people here take credit for almost everything they achieve (by faith or knowledge or both) in healing or any other actions because only God can do this. That is why the Apostle Paul wrote, Your salvation is nothing you have achieved by your good works. It is a gift of God. You receive it by faith. That way no one can boast of his own accomplishments.

JimfromOhio · Jul 1, 2008

Angel*Eyes said:
I actually agree with you more that I disagree with you.

I completely AGREE with you. Like I said in another post "It's not about man-made knowledge, doctrines, or any formula to follow".

We cannot and should not command the Holy spirit at "Will' to do healings and miracles.For instance, it would be completely WRONG for me to just go into a hospital and command people to be healed in Jesus Name.

The key is DISCERNMENT.
I believe that God will lead me to the people who wants me to pray for and He will tell me WHAT TO SAY AND WHAT TO DO.

One day, my sister tells me that she saw a vision of us visting a little girl in the hospital and she saw herself laying her hands on the child's heart.

Guess what??

That night I received a phone call from the church and they wanted my sister and I to do a hospital visit for a little girl with heart problems. So, got prepared us before we went to the hospital. All I have to do is make myself available and let the Lord do the work !!!

If it is time for a person to go to the Lord, I believe that He'll let me know ... so I can just comfort the family.
Another example of discernment...
I've heard healing ministers, Charles and Francis Hunter, mention how at one service 3 different people with crossed eyes got healed in 3 different ways (one by the laying on of hands,one by speaking to the eyes, another was healed without being prayed over.I can't explain why all these people got healed in such different ways.

I often avoid dismissing anyone who has been healed because I believe in healing. I am just against doctrines of faith healing that caused people to put God in the box rather than who He is.

nephilimiyr · Jul 1, 2008

JimfromOhio said:
How do you explain this:
Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

God's divine circumstances (such as blessings or sufferings) can turn or don't turn people to God. People may despise it instead of embracing it. One of the greatest and most essential attributes of God is His sovereignty; God rules over all things and controls all things. God also uses providence to accomplish His will in the world. God directs and uses events to accomplish His own Will which meant: "the providence of God." Romans 8:28 says, "We know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." All things are controlled by God to work together to fulfill His eternal purpose for His Will.

The book of Esther show how God controls history through providence. There isn't a miracle in the book and the name of God isn't mentioned but at the same time, without anyone realizing that God is always in control of every single event in this world. The king mentioned in Esther favored Esther and Mordecai, spared all the Jewish people, made Mordecai the Prime Minister and hanged Haman on the gallows he build himself for the Jewish people and preserved the nation Israel. Hadassah, "myrtle" in Hebrew (Esther 2:7), or Esther, "star" or "Ishtar" in Persian.

Often people here take credit for almost everything they achieve (by faith or knowledge or both) in healing or any other actions because only God can do this. That is why the Apostle Paul wrote, “Your salvation is nothing you have achieved by your good works. It is a gift of God. You receive it by faith. That way no one can boast of his own accomplishments.”

OT

God was just making it clear that He is sovereign. That it doesn't depend on man's desire but on God's mercy. Read verse 16 in Rom 9.
And it's that same mercy that is the reason for me saying that God desires all to be saved. Jesus Christ didn't die for just a select few but for all the world; it's up to the world to decide if they will accept.

Are you saying that God wills for some to recieve salvation and wills for others to go to hell?

JimB · Jul 1, 2008

nephilimiyr said:
I agree with you on that 100%

I agree that it would be hard to find a verse in the Bible stateing "unambiguosly", at least to satisfy you and alot of others, that it is always God's will to heal everybody in need. I do look at the totality of scripture and have made my conclusions.

I think it important to point out that just because I see that it is God's will that everybody in need be healed but that what God desires or wills doesn't necessarily mean that God is going to get what He wants. As I pointed out above in another post; I believe God wills and desires that all may recieve salvation, but will all recieve salvation? NO, some will but others wont and they will have to suffer torments in hell because of their unbelief and or refusal to accept Jesus Christ as Lord.

Ok, so I also see this pertaining to physical healing in that, even though God may desire that all who need healing may recieve it but God isn't going to get what He desires all the time. Why? I think I know part of the reason why, alot of it has to do with the people who will recieve the healing. God can wish for them to recieve it but if they refuse it? Alot of people refuse the gift of salvation, can people also refuse the gift of physical healing? I think so. I think there are mulitple reasons for why a person will not recieve healing.

Again, I'm not making a total arguement here, just writting down some thoughts and my opinions.

I would say you looked at the "totality" of scripture as interpreted by your faith group and made your decision.

I did the same and interpreted scripture much the same as you did, until I left the denomination I was a member of. This allowed me the rare privilege of being more objective in the way I interpret God’s dealing with men and, so, I reject a lot of what I had been taught (or mis-taught).

God wills all to be saved. That’s clear and unambiguous in scripture—for example the whosever passages and 2 Peter 3.9, The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. There is no such definitive statement about healing be God’s will for all. The only way we can say it is by threading often misinterpreted scriptures, 1+1=3 fashion and come up with the belief.

I also do not think you can equate temporary physical healing with eternal salvation, as when you insist on putting healing in the Atonement. IMO, that cheapens salvation and the atonement of Christ for sin. Sickness is simply a part of the human condition and God has always provided healing for humans in the OT as well as the NT (Naaman and Hezekiah, for example). Christ did not have to atone for something God was already providing. Christ died to atone for our sin. Our sickness was already being provided for; redemption for sin wasn’t.

But God is not a horror stricken by sickness as we are and often uses it to teach us. Of course, some deny that (and would make Paul’s thron in the flesh something other than what Paul called it, an “infirmity&#8221

and we could argue that into the ground (again).

Anyhow, those are my thoughts.

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

JimfromOhio · Jul 1, 2008

nephilimiyr said:
OT

Are you saying that God wills for some to recieve salvation and wills for others to go to hell?

What is taught in the Bible, is that we are chosen for salvation and nowhere in the Scripture does it say that God chooses people to be damned. The Bible teaches election and predestination however, man's doctrines interepreted them differently. In the Old Testament, God calls Israel "mine elect" and chose Israel. In the New Testament, God calls Church "mine elect" and chose those whoever responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

However, God can choose whatever He desires for us of us as we SERVE Him. The primary work of Christ in redemption is to justify and sanctify believers. God will use ordinary good people as well as ordinary very sinful people to accomplish great things. Through out the history (in the past 2, 000 years), God uses people of limitless backgrounds who can minister together (unity) for Christ. God works all things together for His purposes. God allowed Stephen to be stoned ( Acts 7:59-60 ) and James to be beheaded. God has given us the grace to sanctify us. The sources of "thorns" can be weaknesses, insults, distresses, persecutions and difficulties (which also includes sickness). James says count it all joy when you fall into various trials cause trials have a perfecting work. Peter says after you've suffered a while the Lord will make you perfect. God uses suffering to reveal our spiritual condition. In the midst of the sufferings, what kind of Christian do you see yourself?

charityagape · Jul 1, 2008

Jimbeaux said:
I would say you looked at the "totality" of scripture as interpreted by your faith group and made your decision.

I did the same and interpreted scripture much the same as you did, until I left the denomination I was a member of. This allowed me the rare privilege of being more objective in the way I interpret God’s dealing with men and, so, I reject a lot of what I had been taught (or mis-taught).
.

You don't think a personal and objective interpretation could lead him to his conclusion?

JimB · Jul 1, 2008

charityagape said:
You don't think a personal and objective interpretation could lead him to his conclusion?

Actually, IMO, none of us have a perfectly objective view of anything.

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

Even Jesus did not heal at will ...

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