Even Jesus did not heal at will ...

[enoch son]

Once again I get totally ignored. Maybe instead of starting my posts off to Jim with a friendly greeting I should cuss and swear at him first?

Ha It works for me LOL.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Ha It works for me LOL.

I am sure you have something in mind that you wanted to say.

 

[probinson]

Oops. Am I debating?

It's your thread.

Would that be like debating with yourself?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Once again I get totally ignored. Maybe instead of starting my posts off to Jim with a friendly greeting I should cuss and swear at him first?

You are not alone there -

 

[razzelflabben]

Once again I get totally ignored. Maybe instead of starting my posts off to Jim with a friendly greeting I should cuss and swear at him first?

I'm not Jim, but I'll give it a go.

No, Jesus didn't heal at His own will but in conjunction with the will of His Father. He copies what He sees His Father doing. What is His Father doing? Look at who the Father is. The Father is all merciful, longsuffering, and loving. If that is true the Father will be doing things that prove those points. Likewise The Son will also.[/quote]Many people make the mistake of assuming to use the same premise as God does when they don't even know what God's purpose is. Do you know what God's purpose since the beginning of time was? Have you studied this yet? The bible tells us that God's purpose from the beginning of time and for eternity is that the natural man and the spiritual man would live in peace with one another. Be married to one another as it were. This happens when we yield the fleshly, evil desires of the flesh over to the spirit. Allowing the spirit to be the head, and the flesh to be in submission to that head. This can only occur through the Lord Jesus Christ. Now we can take this one step further yet. God's purpose in all this is that we will be blameless, pure, undefiled. In other words, God's purpose for man is not that man would never suffer, never know sickness, never... His purpose is that man would learn to yeild the old man to the spiritual man thus living as one, without war. If this is done through suffering so be it, if it is done through healing, that is cool to. The point is what event will bring this about for the individual but rather that the individual does this because of and through the Christ.

So let's apply this understanding to life. We can see it in the bible as well as in modern day, Paul for example, learned to be content in both excess and want. Job learned to see God in prosperity as well as famine. Joseph saw God in slavery as well as a position of authority. On and on it goes. Even in my own life, I have seen God and learned to yeild to Him in both the good and the bad, the struggles and the seasons of plenty as it were. Over time we allow these situations to bring us a glimpse of God's wonders and His Love and we learn to see Love where we never used to think Love was. (btw, do you know what contentment means? In Paul's writings, it means to be confident that he can do even this)

Is there a difference between what God wills and what God desires? I for one don't believe that what God desires is always what God recieves. He is longsuffering though and willing to wait to recieve what He desires.

The desires of man's heart are only evil continually. This biblical concept gives us an interesting view of what God's desire is, His desire is that we would remain in fellowship with Him. That is, that sin would not exist. I don't see Him getting that, do you? God for the most part wants, desires, wills, the opposite of what man wants, desires, wills, so what would make us think even for a fleeting second that our desires, our requests would be the same as God's? It is only when we allow the Holy Spirit and that same spirits Love to transform us, to govern us, to direct us, that our wills, our desires will be the same. That is the point. It isn't our wills, our desires, nor was it Christ's wills and desires, but rather God's that brings about the unity of body and soul (spirit) into oneness, which is God's plan from the start to the finish.

I believe it was not God's desire for Adam and Eve to sin, but they did.

So healing; I do believe that God desires that all who need healing will be healed, but as we all know, there are things standing in the way of God's desire. Is it God's desire that everyone comes to believe in Him and be born again? Yes, but is that what happends? I don't believe so. Is it God's desire that all handicaped people walk? yes but is that what happends? No.

I see this theology and wonder what bible some are reading. At least from the standpoint of how it is being presented (practice may or may not present a problem) for example, you talk about God's desire that all who need healing will be healed. Actually the bible is pretty clear that all who come will be healed and that healing is spiritual in nature but that isn't the point I wish to discuss at the moment. The point I wish to discuss at the moment is that of God's purpose, His will. If you do a bit of study on the topic, you soon find that His purpose, His will, is that the physical man and the spiritual man would live in harmony. Therefore, all theology about God's will being healing, or wealth, or whatever we wish to make it, is ourselves and our fleshly desires, not the biblical understanding of who God is and what He desires for us.

The point is this, when we go around inserting our desires, our wills in exchange for God's, our theology gets all messed up and with it comes a host of evils that few of us will ever in this lifetime understand the ramifications of. Now since this is specific about healing, let me say this. This does not mean that God does not heal, nor does it mean that God does not want to heal people. What it means is that God wants us to be complete, none warring individuals and He isn't afraid to use any means of obtaining that for us, not because He is evil, or harsh, or some other nonsence, but because His premise is an eternal one, not a temperal one. He functions in the temporal all the while living in and understanding the eternal one. Thus His ideas of healing are different than the temporal ideas of healing. His ideas of wealth are very different than our temporal ideas of wealth, etc. etc. etc. Until we begin to see things through the eternal eyes of God, all we are doing is trying to be like God and that is someplace I wouldn't want to be.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I'm not Jim, but I'll give it a go.

No, Jesus didn't heal at His own will but in conjunction with the will of His Father. He copies what He sees His Father doing. What is His Father doing? Look at who the Father is. The Father is all merciful, longsuffering, and loving. If that is true the Father will be doing things that prove those points. Likewise The Son will also.

Many people make the mistake of assuming to use the same premise as God does when they don't even know what God's purpose is. Do you know what God's purpose since the beginning of time was? Have you studied this yet? The bible tells us that God's purpose from the beginning of time and for eternity is that the natural man and the spiritual man would live in peace with one another. Be married to one another as it were. This happens when we yield the fleshly, evil desires of the flesh over to the spirit. Allowing the spirit to be the head, and the flesh to be in submission to that head. This can only occur through the Lord Jesus Christ. Now we can take this one step further yet. God's purpose in all this is that we will be blameless, pure, undefiled. In other words, God's purpose for man is not that man would never suffer, never know sickness, never... His purpose is that man would learn to yeild the old man to the spiritual man thus living as one, without war. If this is done through suffering so be it, if it is done through healing, that is cool to. The point is what event will bring this about for the individual but rather that the individual does this because of and through the Christ.

So let's apply this understanding to life. We can see it in the bible as well as in modern day, Paul for example, learned to be content in both excess and want. Job learned to see God in prosperity as well as famine. Joseph saw God in slavery as well as a position of authority. On and on it goes. Even in my own life, I have seen God and learned to yeild to Him in both the good and the bad, the struggles and the seasons of plenty as it were. Over time we allow these situations to bring us a glimpse of God's wonders and His Love and we learn to see Love where we never used to think Love was. (btw, do you know what contentment means? In Paul's writings, it means to be confident that he can do even this)The desires of man's heart are only evil continually. This biblical concept gives us an interesting view of what God's desire is, His desire is that we would remain in fellowship with Him. That is, that sin would not exist. I don't see Him getting that, do you? God for the most part wants, desires, wills, the opposite of what man wants, desires, wills, so what would make us think even for a fleeting second that our desires, our requests would be the same as God's? It is only when we allow the Holy Spirit and that same spirits Love to transform us, to govern us, to direct us, that our wills, our desires will be the same. That is the point. It isn't our wills, our desires, nor was it Christ's wills and desires, but rather God's that brings about the unity of body and soul (spirit) into oneness, which is God's plan from the start to the finish.I see this theology and wonder what bible some are reading. At least from the standpoint of how it is being presented (practice may or may not present a problem) for example, you talk about God's desire that all who need healing will be healed. Actually the bible is pretty clear that all who come will be healed and that healing is spiritual in nature but that isn't the point I wish to discuss at the moment. The point I wish to discuss at the moment is that of God's purpose, His will. If you do a bit of study on the topic, you soon find that His purpose, His will, is that the physical man and the spiritual man would live in harmony. Therefore, all theology about God's will being healing, or wealth, or whatever we wish to make it, is ourselves and our fleshly desires, not the biblical understanding of who God is and what He desires for us.

The point is this, when we go around inserting our desires, our wills in exchange for God's, our theology gets all messed up and with it comes a host of evils that few of us will ever in this lifetime understand the ramifications of. Now since this is specific about healing, let me say this. This does not mean that God does not heal, nor does it mean that God does not want to heal people. What it means is that God wants us to be complete, none warring individuals and He isn't afraid to use any means of obtaining that for us, not because He is evil, or harsh, or some other nonsence, but because His premise is an eternal one, not a temperal one. He functions in the temporal all the while living in and understanding the eternal one. Thus His ideas of healing are different than the temporal ideas of healing. His ideas of wealth are very different than our temporal ideas of wealth, etc. etc. etc. Until we begin to see things through the eternal eyes of God, all we are doing is trying to be like God and that is someplace I wouldn't want to be.
[/quote]




Good responses.

 

[JimB]

Hi Jim

No, Jesus didn't heal at His own will but in conjunction with the will of His Father. He copies what He sees His Father doing. What is His Father doing? Look at who the Father is. The Father is all merciful, longsuffering, and loving. If that is true the Father will be doing things that prove those points. Likewise The Son will also.

Is there a difference between what God wills and what God desires? I for one don't believe that what God desires is always what God recieves. He is longsuffering though and willing to wait to recieve what He desires.

I believe it was not God's desire for Adam and Eve to sin, but they did.

So healing; I do believe that God desires that all who need healing will be healed, but as we all know, there are things standing in the way of God's desire. Is it God's desire that everyone comes to believe in Him and be born again? Yes, but is that what happends? I don't believe so. Is it God's desire that all handicaped people walk? yes but is that what happends? No.

Just some thoughts...

Of course Jesus, while He was on earth, had a separate will from the Father or else He would not have been truly human nor would He have had to learn to obey (Heb. 5.8). But though their wills were separate, does not mean that they were opposite. In fact, Jesus was perfectly obedient and willed to do the will of the Father.

But I am not sure you can scripturally prove (without threading scripture) that it is always God’s will, in every instance, to heal. There is no scripture that unambiguously says that. It is a belief that has become dogma among Pentecostals thanks to Russell Kelso Carter c.1884.

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.​

 

[Always in His Presence]

I guess I am either on ignore or invisible to j.

 

[probinson]

The Word of Knowledge is a good manifestation of the Spirit - but why can't you just talk to the Father and have Him tell you out of your relationship with Him?

I don't pray for people's healings - there's no scriptural support for asking God in prayer to heal anyone. The disciples were not told to pray for peoples healings:

Luke 9:1 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
​

Jesus didn't tell them to ask, Jesus said nothing about it being God's will or not - He simply gave them the authority and then told them to go heal the sick. And they did.

Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
​

72 OTHERS - not even the disciples - Jesus sent them out - to do what?

8"When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.'
​

Jesus didn't tell them to ask, Jesus said nothing about it being God's will or not - He simply gave them the authority and then told them to go heal the sick. And they did.

Acts 3:1 One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon. 2 Now a man crippled from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those going into the temple courts. 3 When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. 4 Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, "Look at us!" 5 So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them. 6 Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." 7 Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong. 8 He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God. 9 When all the people saw him walking and praising God,
​

The man got healed by Peter's words and actions, but Peter NEVER asked God to heal him - Peter never asked if it was God's will to heal the man - he just used his authority and healed the man.

That's what's missing today - that's where we are missing it!

The deep personal day to day relationship with God the Father through Jesus. So personal and so deep that we can instantly know His will and help people. So deep and personal that we interact with Father just like Jesus, the one we're called to imitate, did.

But instead of the multiple multiple examples of how Jesus and the disciples healed through this relationship-, we've reduced knowing God's will to trial and error -

Well, if we pray and we don't see them ......, God must be trying to teach them something - or it must not be God's will.

We have pastors in pulpits that admit they don't know what the will of God is, never seeing this:

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

​

I've been thrown out of Word of Faith circles because I preached this hard. We're not just supposed to know His will - but prove it.

It's time we got off our high horse of (I think this might be why), and got on our knees and spent real time fellowshipping with the Father so we can train ourselves to hear His voice.

Here you go.

Bumpity bumpity...

Good stuff!

 

[JimB]

I guess I am either on ignore or invisible to j.

I’ve been over in the debate section, P. I am not good at multi-tasking forums.

What is it you want me to know?

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.​

 

[Always in His Presence]

I’ve been over in the debate section, P. I am not good at multi-tasking forums.

What is it you want me to know?

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.​

I'm not P - I'm B -

I've asked this three time in two threads -

Luke 5 - the Word says plainly that the power of the Lord was present to heal them (the Pharisees and teachers of the law), Jesus was there -

why weren't they healed?

 

[JimfromOhio]

Here you go.

Bumpity bumpity...

Good stuff!

Well, in Balance's post, his points raise an issue about a believer's faith and why a person is not healed. Which is why I have an issue with some doctrines concerning Faith Healing. I am not the only one who is having this problem.

 

[probinson]

Well, in Balance's post, his points raise an issue about a believer's faith and why a person is not healed. Which is why I have an issue with some doctrines concerning Faith Healing. I am not the only one who is having this problem.

I'm not sure why. Even Jesus said on some occasions, "According to your faith, be it unto you."

Do you have a problem with that statement?

 

[JimB]

I'm not sure why. Even Jesus said on some occasions, "According to your faith, be it unto you."

Do you have a problem with that statement?

I don't think anyone in this forum has a problem with that statement, Pete.

Certainly, unbelief, skepticism, doubt, cynicism, distrust, misgivings, disbelief, uncertainty and any other synonym for unbelief can prevent a person from receiving anything from anyone. After all, people aren't saved because they do not believe; their own distrust has prevented them from receiving God’s free gift. If I give a gift, no matter how staggering that gift may be, you will have to trust me that I am telling you the truth before you will even attempt to receive it from me.

In the same way, according to (because of) our faith, because we have trusted in the Savior/Healer, we are prepared to receive from God, hence, according to our faith so be it unto us.

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.​

 

[Always in His Presence]

and yet.... the question is completely ignored once again.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I'm not sure why. Even Jesus said on some occasions, "According to your faith, be it unto you."

Do you have a problem with that statement?

According to my faith, it will be given to me whenever God's decides. Today or tomorrow or after death. By faith, I am able to walk on WATER or move the MOUNTAINS, only if its according to God's will at the time. We need to understand what God desires, not what man desires while at the same time, we need to understand God's TIME.

Faith is a confidence that God will actually someday heal us here on earth or in Heaven, that He will actually some day make us perfect and free from sin, that He will actually some day bring us face to face with Christ and make us like Him, that He will actually someday reward us with eternal reward, that He will someday actually take us to a place He’s prepared for us, none of which we have ever seen.

I will repeat A.W. Tozer's quote on Faith
Faith is not the ability to persuade ourselves for something we desire will come to pass if we only wish hard enough. God is who He is as Himself. He does not become what we believe. God is "I AM That I AM" and that only when we know what kind of God He is, we are to adjust our entire being to the concept of Who He really is. Faith is subjective, but it is sound only when it corresponds with objective reality by the knowing God as "I AM that I AM", with the help from the Holy Spirit, we produce strong faith. True faith is not the ability to visualize unseen things to the satisfaction of our imperfect minds, but rather the spiritual power to trust Christ as Who He is.

 

[JimfromOhio]

and yet.... the question is completely ignored once again.

Nope.

We are ignoring your doctrines as much you and Pete are ignoring my or other doctrines.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Well, in Balance's post, his points raise an issue about a believer's faith and why a person is not healed. Which is why I have an issue with some doctrines concerning Faith Healing. I am not the only one who is having this problem.

I did?????? Where? I was speaking from the person ministering - not the person being ministered to -

The Word of Knowledge is a good manifestation of the Spirit - but why can't you just talk to the Father and have Him tell you out of your relationship with Him?

I don't pray for people's healings - there's no scriptural support for asking God in prayer to heal anyone. The disciples were not told to pray for peoples healings:

Luke 9:1 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
​

Jesus didn't tell them to ask, Jesus said nothing about it being God's will or not - He simply gave them the authority and then told them to go heal the sick. And they did.

Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
​

72 OTHERS - not even the disciples - Jesus sent them out - to do what?

8"When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.'
​

Jesus didn't tell them to ask, Jesus said nothing about it being God's will or not - He simply gave them the authority and then told them to go heal the sick. And they did.

Acts 3:1 One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon. 2 Now a man crippled from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those going into the temple courts. 3 When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. 4 Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, "Look at us!" 5 So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them. 6 Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." 7 Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong. 8 He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God. 9 When all the people saw him walking and praising God,
​

The man got healed by Peter's words and actions, but Peter NEVER asked God to heal him - Peter never asked if it was God's will to heal the man - he just used his authority and healed the man.

That's what's missing today - that's where we are missing it!

The deep personal day to day relationship with God the Father through Jesus. So personal and so deep that we can instantly know His will and help people. So deep and personal that we interact with Father just like Jesus, the one we're called to imitate, did.

But instead of the multiple multiple examples of how Jesus and the disciples healed through this relationship-, we've reduced knowing God's will to trial and error -

Well, if we pray and we don't see them ......, God must be trying to teach them something - or it must not be God's will.

We have pastors in pulpits that admit they don't know what the will of God is, never seeing this:

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

​

I've been thrown out of Word of Faith circles because I preached this hard. We're not just supposed to know His will - but prove it.

It's time we got off our high horse of (I think this might be why), and got on our knees and spent real time fellowshipping with the Father so we can train ourselves to hear His voice.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Nope.

We are ignoring your doctrines as much you and Pete are ignoring my or other doctrines.

HOGWASH!

I'm not the one bringing up doctrine - you are.

I am asking for his POV on the scriptures -

and you wonder why I ignore your posts.

 

[JimfromOhio]

HOGWASH!

I'm not the one bringing up doctrine - you are.

I am asking for his POV on the scriptures -

and you wonder why I ignore your posts.

Never wondered because with our "past history" and knew that you would ignore mine until recently.