Even Jesus did not heal at will ...

[Angel*Eyes]

Jimfromohio & Jimbeaux,

When I use the word 'knowledge"- I mean just knowing deep within you that God loves you & wants you to be healed in EVERY area of your life.

It's not about man-made knowledge, doctrines, or any formula to follow.

I didn't mean any harm by my posts. I just want all to experience God's love and all that it contains. I don't want anyone to settle for less. I'm passionate about this topic since I love visiting people in the hospitals and believe that God has given me a heart for the sick and hurting.

I'm all about just resting in God's love and letting Him have control. I am learning to not fret over the how's and why's of life ...that will only lead to flustration.

Just enjoy life and believe that before you leave this earth, that you'll expericence All that God has in store for you.

I would rather believe God and receive 45% of His promises than to limit God and get nothing. As a child of God, I just want to rejoice in all Truth, bear all things, believe all things, hope all things, and endure all things (1 corinthians 13:6-7).

Be blessed

 

[KleinerApfel]

Originally Posted by Jimbeaux

I know a lady who is a hypochondriac and chooses to be ill, even if if she has to fake it, because it serves her felt need for attention. When she is “sick” (real or imagined), people who are not wise to her show her more attention and concern than otherwise and so it serves her emotional needs to be physically ill for the emotional value the attention gains her.
​

And what should that tell us? HMMM?

Sounds to Moriah like a simple enough case with a simple enough solution: that woman needs others around her in her life who will make her feel cherished, important, like she matters, as much or more when she bes well as when she bes infirm. No one should have to be ill before others give them the freaking time of day.

When doing my nursing training I did a placement at a psychiatric hospital. A woman in her seventies would lay herself on the floor because she was unable to receive the attention she needed. It was heart-rending, because the behaviour modification treatment for this was to behave as if she didn't exist. Staff would literally step over her when she blocked the corridor.

I was young and didn't know the Lord, I was full of fear of rejection by those same staff,and of losing my job if I didn't toe the line, but none of that excuses the fact that I too gave her scant attention. It was inhuman.

I wonder if their "treatment" ever resulted in her finding peace?


Maybe when she was a tiny baby her mother was taught that you must ignore crying and leave baby in the crib to console itself?
When will we learn LOVE?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

When doing my nursing training I did a placement at a psychiatric hospital. A woman in her seventies would lay herself on the floor because she was unable to receive the attention she needed. It was heart-rending, because the behaviour modification treatment for this was to behave as if she didn't exist. Staff would literally step over her when she blocked the corridor.

I was young and didn't know the Lord, I was full of fear of rejection by those same staff,and of losing my job if I didn't toe the line, but none of that excuses the fact that I too gave her scant attention. It was inhuman.

I wonder if their "treatment" ever resulted in her finding peace?

Maybe when she was a tiny baby her mother was taught that you must ignore crying and leave baby in the crib to console itself?
When will we learn LOVE?

Human society bes full of despicable toxic programming like this and the WORST of it bes that the majority regard that toxic filth as NORMAL!!! :o

WHY do humans insist upon punishing people who bes starving for some scrap of freaking affection and validation? Do we really imagine that will help? What stops a starving person from diving into a dumpster for scraps of food EXCEPT feeding them a proper meal on a regular basis??? Get a clue humans, the FED don't do these "bad" behaviors ONLY THE STARVING. The "CURE" therefore (if you really cannot stand the behaviors) bes NOT to punish the behaviors but to FEED THE NEED THAT DRIVES THEM!!! Once that need bes FED there will be no more energy, purpose or motivation behind the behaviors you find so "disgusting" and they will simply FALL OFF IN TIME!!!! Granted, your starving person might take some TIME to reassure them that the "food supply" will not dry up and walk away (and if you givesy such assurance you'd BEST be followsy through human!!! ) BUT if we bes NOT weary in well doing we SHALL reap in due time -- that bes HIS promise. WHY do we not trust Him and give ppls what they bes HUNGRY for instead of punishing them for acting a little "crazy" due to starvation?????????

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

OH DEAR!!! Sue, it bes ever so sorry -- it went to REP your post and hit the REPORT button instead and it bes so "out of it" it did not even register it bes putting its comment in the WRONG BOX!!
Mods, very sorry for the mixup!! :o

 

[KleinerApfel]

OH DEAR!!! Sue, it bes ever so sorry -- it went to REP your post and hit the REPORT button instead and it bes so "out of it" it did not even register it bes putting its comment in the WRONG BOX!!
Mods, very sorry for the mixup!! :o

ROFLOL! The buttons are so close together I've almost done that a few times.
Sorry you're feeling "out of it" though.

(Thanks for finding the real rep button in the end! )

 

[JimB]

Attention Mods.

Please be aware that people are disagreeing (debating) with me in this thread. Isn’t that a breach of the rules? Doesn’t the new rule say that whatever thread I open people have to agree with and to only do their debating in the new debate thread?

Personally, I think that will make this forum pretty lame, but, hey, rules are rules.

Wait!. Come to think of it, there are a lot of controversial positions (like this one) I can make with impunity if I just open it in the shape of a new thread where no one can disagree with me.

This just might work out great!!

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.​

 

[probinson]

Don't worry. I'm sure this thread will promptly be moved to the new "Debate" area, and then we won't have to agree with you anymore.

 

[CryoftheNation]

Attention Mods.

Please be aware that people are disagreeing (debating) with me in this thread. Isn’t that a breach of the rules? Doesn’t the new rule say that whatever thread I open people have to agree with and to only do their debating in the new debate thread?

Personally, I think that will make this forum pretty lame, but, hey, rules are rules.

Wait!. Come to think of it, there are a lot of controversial positions (like this one) I can make with impunity if I just open it in the shape of a new thread where no one can disagree with me.

This just might work out great!!

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.​

It may just be that they're agreeing to disagree?

 

[razzelflabben]

How does anyone know what a person actually believes in their heart? That's one thing that many people have said, that they believed this, or they believe that, because they confessed it. Nobody knows what a person actually believes in their heart. I don't know what all my husband believes from his heart and we have been married for 46 years.
The heart of man is God area. And I cannot answer this because I have no idea whats present in the heart, and what the reasons are. But God knows. Not all confessions made, is from the heart. Alot of times it's nothing more than mental assent, with confession from the mouth, with very little to do with actual heart level belief.

Where I agree with you on this matter, I reread my post and understood it the way I wrote it, maybe that is just because I know what I was saying, so let's try it this way. The man confesses and acts as if he believes he is healed, but when it comes right down to it, he falls back into alcohol and the sicknesses that come from that alcohol. Does that make better sense?

 

[razzelflabben]

To believe that Jesus did not heal at will, you would have to believe that Jesus' will and the Father's will are (or could be) different.

Jesus and the Father (and the Holy Spirit), are ONE. Therefore, they can not have contradictory wills.

So as it pertains to this topic, there was never a time when Jesus wanted to heal someone and the Father didn't, or vice versa.

are you sure about that? Jesus was fully human, he had the same emotions and desires, and thoughts as every human has, but he was also God. So the question then becomes 1. was Jesus fully human or 2. did He have to trust the Spirit to keep those feeling and desires in check, and Godly.

Now one of the first places to go for this answer is the garden when Jesus prayed that this cup would pass from Him, what we see is a very human response. I don't want to do this. But we also see a man who allowed the Spirit to control those human desires and thoughts, and lived out a Godly life in the Spirit, accepting fully the authority of God not His own desires and thoughts.

 

[razzelflabben]

I don't believe the topic is if Jesus wills to heal. It is His will, but was He able to always carry out that will. He did not, because not everybody was healed.




I gave up my attachments to this life over two decades ago. It was only when I had my own family that I found a reason to stay, but at some point, my kids will grow and move on. I'll no longer be needed and it will be time for me to move on.

Should I reach that point and some life-threatening sickness come on me, I can honestly say my desire is to depart and I would not seek healing. I can't imagine any reason why I'd want to stay.

I can think of some reasons for you to stay, but my comment is more about Paul and his desire to be with Christ and yet, he knows that staying here is gain. Powerful words that should come into mind every time someone is very ill.

 

[JimfromOhio]

My definition of faith healing relies solely upon God alone, His will alone and not mine. Whether or not you are physically healed is ultimately left to the sovereign will of God. Nowhere does God promise to heal us from "old age" which God allow our bodies to decay which leads to terminal illness to bring His people home to heaven.

If everything is God's will, why do these people pray so hard? Under what conditions does He do it?

Faith is not a force but is, rather, a person's commitment to repent from sin and to live a life of holiness with a desire to please God. The focus is on what we can get from God rather than on how we can change our habits, actions, words, and thoughts to become more pleasing to God. Doctrinal teachings that teaches man can command the Holy Spirit at "will" to do miracles and healing, and God will obey. Why should God obey our will? This is not about faith in relation to "getting what you want" but faith in WHO and at HIS will.

Faith is not self-effort but rather from within. Since faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit by the conviction to submit into action, we are focus on our faith based on obedience to holiness, adding to our faith and fruit of the spirit through grace. Working on of faith means nothing if you don't act on your faith. If you don't act, then you don't have faith. Faith is indeed the title deed for things hoped for. Saving faith is placed in something that was promised to happen. Faith is believing something that God promises will happen, not because we will it to happen, but because He PROMISED THEY will happen.

Certainly God wishes to grace us with blessing but are we guaranteed blessings of health? I have explored the doctrines of "faith healing" over the years and I discovered the scriptural as well as the unscriptural kinds of faith healing. God's invitation to His family to ask Him for healing is one of the most wonderful, loving and caring provisions He had made for us. We have to remember its not how to believe but rather who to believe in. Faith is accepting God's Will. There is confusion between the determined Will of God and a Christian's responsibility as a Christian. The Holy Spirit is within us which is the same as God is in us as we describe to others that we have Jesus in our hearts. The Spirit is our intercessor, our personal indwelling intercessor interceding according to the will of God. The Father will always hear and always answer the intercessory prayer of the Spirit because the Spirit always prays according to God's will and God always does His will.

Final thoughts on doctrinal issues of faith healing. I am clearly against faith teachings that teaches that a God who actually hears our prayers and wants to answer them by telling us of the desire of God to heal people of their physical infirmities when often goes unanswered for many Christians. When miracles often occurred, God allowed Stephen to be stoned ( Acts 7:59-60 ) and James to be beheaded. My main issue is this: Is divine healing an important doctrine that leads people to false hope or understanding God's will whether they are healed or not? I am NEVER comfortable telling people about such doctrines and I don't want to be responsible for decieving another person when I share the good news of eternal salvation. I am careful when it comes to healing doctrines. When one don't know why one is not healed, it is better not to explore or try to understand by creating doctrines.

 

[probinson]

When one don't know why one is not healed, it is better not to explore or try to understand by creating doctrines.

You do realize that your entire post before this statement explains your doctrine on why you believe people aren't healed...

 

[JimfromOhio]

You do realize that your entire post before this statement explains your doctrine on why you believe people aren't healed...

Pete, I am reminded in Hebrews. 13:9, "Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace...". Webster defines "heresy" as, "an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards."

Man's doctrines often gets in the way of the doctrine of truth. The Bible is truth while doctrines are taught by man which means "Faith Healing" doctrines are created by men based on their own interpretations.

I am not a perfect Christian but I am a forgiven Christian who is still learning. I have learned that there is NO perfect man's doctrines. Our Christian life exemplifies what the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints means in the life of a faltering believer. In the Christian life, thinking is crucial, emotions are crucial and doctrines are crucial. I don't know from flesh point of view whether the doctrines I follow are 100% true unless I allow the Holy Spirit to convict my heart to follow certain doctrines. Doctrines sounds very good and simple but life is not so simple. I have learned to be careful how I read and need to look from doctrinal perspective rather than each of our own satisfaction. By nature, we are all heretics. Christianity will always be running against the prevailing movement of society with individualistic doctrinal beliefs. We are in the world of self-deceit that we are too focused on ourselves to see the eternal truth. People often unconsciously select for special attention certain Scriptures that they are familiar with that they forget to check to see the Scriptures for deeper study. Lack of balance scripturally is often the direct consequence of overemphasis on certain favorite passages while ignoring others that are related.

What I can is knowing God is through right thinking about God which is very essential to true intimacy with Him. All we can know with any certainty about God is what is revealed in Scripture. I know the true God in the true way is thoroughly familiar with His Word which is the Bible. Whatever doctrines others believe may not be essentials for my relationship with God whether they agree with me or not. If I don't view certain doctrines (i.e. faith healing) as the essentials of Christian life and practice simply because of the motives in our Christian lives should be both holy and genuine from God's perspective, not ours.

I believe in healing and God does heal. However, I am not comfortable with certain faith healing doctrines that are being promoted in this forum.

 

[enoch son]

Pete, I am reminded in Hebrews. 13:9, "Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace...". Webster defines "heresy" as, "an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards."

Man's doctrines often gets in the way of the doctrine of truth. The Bible is truth while doctrines are taught by man which means "Faith Healing" doctrines are created by men based on their own interpretations.

I am not a perfect Christian but I am a forgiven Christian who is still learning. I have learned that there is NO perfect man's doctrines. Our Christian life exemplifies what the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints means in the life of a faltering believer. In the Christian life, thinking is crucial, emotions are crucial and doctrines are crucial. I don't know from flesh point of view whether the doctrines I follow are 100% true unless I allow the Holy Spirit to convict my heart to follow certain doctrines. Doctrines sounds very good and simple but life is not so simple. I have learned to be careful how I read and need to look from doctrinal perspective rather than each of our own satisfaction. By nature, we are all heretics. Christianity will always be running against the prevailing movement of society with individualistic doctrinal beliefs. We are in the world of self-deceit that we are too focused on ourselves to see the eternal truth. People often unconsciously select for special attention certain Scriptures that they are familiar with that they forget to check to see the Scriptures for deeper study. Lack of balance scripturally is often the direct consequence of overemphasis on certain favorite passages while ignoring others that are related.

What I can is knowing God is through right thinking about God which is very essential to true intimacy with Him. All we can know with any certainty about God is what is revealed in Scripture. I know the true God in the true way is thoroughly familiar with His Word which is the Bible. Whatever doctrines others believe may not be essentials for my relationship with God whether they agree with me or not. If I don't view certain doctrines (i.e. faith healing) as the essentials of Christian life and practice simply because of the motives in our Christian lives should be both holy and genuine from God's perspective, not ours.

I believe in healing and God does heal. However, I am not comfortable with certain faith healing doctrines that are being promoted in this forum.

This would make sense if it was the heresy of man to begian with.

 

[JimfromOhio]

This would make sense if it was the heresy of man to begian with.

Especially when explaining to those who are strong Christians that are not healed. Faith healing doctrines should be questioned and studied.

It is my responsibility as a Christian to discern and I don't want to be gullible. I can either be gullible or discerner. I choose to be a discerner.

 

[JimB]

I’ve seen people who did not have enough “faith” to pay their rent receive miraculous healing. “Faith” (at least as a certain group in this forum is teaching it), has little to do with healing.

Oops. Am I debating?

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.​

 

[nephilimiyr]

Hi Jim

No, Jesus didn't heal at His own will but in conjunction with the will of His Father. He copies what He sees His Father doing. What is His Father doing? Look at who the Father is. The Father is all merciful, longsuffering, and loving. If that is true the Father will be doing things that prove those points. Likewise The Son will also.

Is there a difference between what God wills and what God desires? I for one don't believe that what God desires is always what God recieves. He is longsuffering though and willing to wait to recieve what He desires.

I believe it was not God's desire for Adam and Eve to sin, but they did.

So healing; I do believe that God desires that all who need healing will be healed, but as we all know, there are things standing in the way of God's desire. Is it God's desire that everyone comes to believe in Him and be born again? Yes, but is that what happends? I don't believe so. Is it God's desire that all handicaped people walk? yes but is that what happends? No.

Just some thoughts...

Once again I get totally ignored. Maybe instead of starting my posts off to Jim with a friendly greeting I should cuss and swear at him first?

 

[pinetree]

Once again I get totally ignored. Maybe instead of starting my posts off to Jim with a friendly greeting I should cuss and swear at him first?

brother pinetree reads em ....

 

[JimfromOhio]

Once again I get totally ignored. Maybe instead of starting my posts off to Jim with a friendly greeting I should cuss and swear at him first?

I did answer your question and perhaps you dismissed my answer. Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all in one. While Christ was on earth, He was submitting to Father and Holy Spirit. Concept of Trinity is important.

I was not ignoring your question and I would say you were ignoring my answer.