My Final Conclusion about Science and Religion

consol said:

I don't know how to reply to you, I feel that whatever I write will not be enough, I can not imagine what you must have been through, and must still be going through, all we can do is hope that one day you will be able to discuss things with your parents, and perhaps get them to understand what happened to you and why it happened.

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I don't believe they are capable of understanding, and I believe they will always judge me as their outcast daughter.

If they admit that what they did hurt me in any way, they will essentially be saying that their version of religion is harmful. To say that what they taught me was wrong, is to say that their version of religion is wrong.

To their understanding, anything short of my acceptance of and belief in their version of religion, and a healthy life as a result and consequence of it, is nothing short of my own individual failure, and is a direct result of my rejection of it. They have constructed a model upon which it is impossible for anything to be their fault and it is only possible for it to be all my fault. Their model does not allow for them to be wrong.

Happiness can only be derived from following their own version of religion, and if you are not happy, then either you are not following it well enough, or you lack faith, or some other personal failure.

I will always be judged. I will never be seen as a human being searching for my way in this world, or as a human being that was harmed by their teachings, or as a human being that saw that their beliefs were wrong (or even just wrong for me), but rather as their fallen daughter who rejected their version of religion out of sin and deceit so that I could pursue a life of sin. My dad actually said this to me that last time we spoke, about 8 months ago--that I just rejected it all so that I could lead a life of sin.

I often debate myself on the topic of just rejecting them as my parents altogether and never speaking to them again. They will never be able to relate to me as a human being--human to human. My dad almost can, but he's so deep in his world, so deep in his lies, so very deep that I can't reach him. Do you know what I mean? I just can't reach past the lies, to him.

My mom? I never could reach through the lies to her. It just seemed like I could relate to her on a fulfilling level while I was in the bubble of fundamentalism. But now--its a facade that will always be a wall of separation between me and them. What is left between me and them? What is left of my relationship with my parents? Is there anything worth continuing or reviving? Have I truly lost them?

I have not yet decided. And so the silence continues.

What really irks me as well, is that most of the religious people reading about your experience will take absolutely nothing from it,
they will remain trapped in their own little world. (hopefully some will)

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To even consider the possibility that maybe I could have been harmed by religious indoctrination, is to consider that there may be a flaw with the religious indoctrination. And because they cannot consider it, the flaw must lie with me.

That's why I say that some forms of religious indoctrination should be classed as child abuse, and in my opinion you are living proof of that, you have, and you will be suffering for a long time to come, and if that's not child abuse, I don't know what is? anything that damages a child is surly child abuse.

If you think I am wrong please feel free to blow me out of the water, because if anyone knows, I think you do.

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My boyfriend has told me that it was a form of child abuse as well. Its really hard to understand that. Its obvious that physically beating a child or telling a child she is stupid and worthless are forms of abuse--but none of those things happened to me. I suppose its harder to understand that you were abused when you were the one who got abused. I'm only just beginning to see how I was abused.

One example is, creating in the psyche of the child a firm foundation and firm assurances about how the world is, and how the afterlife is, thereby creating a need for things to be as the child is told they are. The child forms their life view, hopes, dreams, and basic needs upon this foundation, and then when subjected to the real world, the foundation crumbles. What is a parent's job? To prepare their child for life in the world as an adult. And by that definition, my parents failed.

They created in me the need to know and be connected with a deity, the need to know that I will live forever, the need to be with loved ones after death, the fear of death without that promise. And now? I still have those needs, and just live with them being unfulfilled. I fear death; I have had a few panick attacks thinking about it. I fear being separated by death from those I love. I fear my immortality and the knowledge that I only have about 50-60 years left. I fear the end.

aeroz22 said:

To even consider the possibility that maybe I could have been harmed by religious indoctrination, is to consider that there may be a flaw with the religious indoctrination. And because they cannot consider it, the flaw must lie with me.

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The question as to whether Christianity, not just indocrination into Christianity but Christianity itself, is flawed in such a way as to inevitably harm its practitioners haunts me. I don't know how to find the necessary perspective to answer the question, but what you've said here is troubling. I can't disregard it.

Glass*Soul said:

The question as to whether Christianity, not just indocrination into Christianity but Christianity itself, is flawed in such a way as to inevitably harm its practitioners haunts me. I don't know how to find the necessary perspective to answer the question, but what you've said here is troubling. I can't disregard it.

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You can't separate indoctrination from christianity... it is every bit as much of an insidious tool of christianity as the torture devices, fiery stakes and vats of boiling oil of the middle ages.

'Belief' is the ILLUSION of knowledge... a lame and pathetic substitute for ACTUAL knowledge... and it is the stock-in-trade of religion... along with 'faith'. Faith is a lame and pathetic substitute for facts and evidence. Put these two things together, and you come away thinking that you 'know' something... feeling like you 'know' something... that you REALLY do not know at all. This makes ACTUAL knowledge (and its running-mate, 'reason') the deadly enemy of religion. ACTUAL knowledge lurks as a constant background threat, and a looming danger to religion's main product-line... the ILLUSION of knowledge. It is because of this that 'religion' stands in opposition to 'science'... because 'science', as a primary SOURCE of ACTUAL knowledge, has put the lie to the ILLUSION of knowledge that is purveyed by religion over and over again, throughout history. Science does not intend to do that... that's just the way that it happens to turn out. Collateral damage. Science is just trying to go about the business of understanding nature... but religion tends to take it personally. So, when what science reveals something that happens to conflict with what religion asserts to be the 'truth' (dogma), then religion is forced to try to subvert and discredit what science has learned... and to try to subvert, discredit and abase science itself... as a simple matter of survival. Loss of credibility inevitably leads to loss of 'believers'... which leads to loss of wealth and power.

Note that I said that religion is "... forced to try to subvert and discredit what science has learned." It would probably be more accurate and appropriate to say "... reduced to trying to subvert and discredit what science has learned." 'Reduced', because religion has LOST (less than 400 years ago) the political power which previously had given them leave to simply torture and kill anyone who dared to attempt to convey 'non-biblical' knowledge, or share 'heretical' thoughts. So... in the place of torture instruments, vats of boiling oil and the threat of the stake, we now have TBN, CBN, Answers In Genesis, Ken Ham, Dr. Dino, and 'Rapture' video games, 'Intelligent Design'... and well-intentioned (but intentionally deluded) parents.

Religions can best be perceived as a parasite that has co-evolved in a symbiotic relationship with humanity. It sucks the life-blood of humanity... but does not kill it. The 'good works' of religion are (for the most part) a thin veneer... a false-front that conceals the ugly truth that lies beneath... that 'truth' being that religion... particularly the Abrahamic death-cults of desert monotheism... and most particularly the christ-cult... are in the business of using lies and sophisticated mental-manipulation techniques to create whole generations of people deliberately inculcated to think that gullibility, irrationality, willful ignorance, self-deception, self-delusion, intellectual dishonesty, hypocrisy and toxic, drooling stupidity are some kind of divine, holy virtues... and steeped in a world-view that is based entirely upon the collected and consolidated myths, superstitions, fairy tales and fantastical delusions of an ignorant gaggle of Bronze Age fishermen and wandering, militant, marauding, genocidal goat-herders...

... in order to keep the income flowing.

DuckPhup said:

You can't separate indoctrination from christianity... it is every bit as much of an insidious tool of christianity as the torture devices, fiery stakes and vats of boiling oil of the middle ages.

....

Religions can best be perceived as a parasite that has co-evolved in a symbiotic relationship with humanity. It sucks the life-blood of humanity... but does not kill it. The 'good works' of religion are (for the most part) a thin veneer... a false-front that conceals the ugly truth that lies beneath... that 'truth' being that religion... particularly the Abrahamic death-cults of desert monotheism... and most particularly the christ-cult... are in the business of using lies and sophisticated mental-manipulation techniques to create whole generations of people deliberately inculcated to think that gullibility, irrationality, willful ignorance, self-deception, self-delusion, intellectual dishonesty, hypocrisy and toxic, drooling stupidity are some kind of divine, holy virtues... and steeped in a world-view that is based entirely upon the collected and consolidated myths, superstitions, fairy tales and fantastical delusions of an ignorant gaggle of Bronze Age fishermen and wandering, militant, marauding, genocidal goat-herders...

... in order to keep the income flowing.

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Glass*Soul said:

The question as to whether Christianity, not just indocrination into Christianity but Christianity itself, is flawed in such a way as to inevitably harm its practitioners haunts me. I don't know how to find the necessary perspective to answer the question, but what you've said here is troubling. I can't disregard it.

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I don't subscribe to all the things that DuckPhup is saying. What I am saying in my posts should be taken to apply specifically to the fundamentalist Christian denominations and cults--which is where I happen to have experience.

I think it is possible that Christianity itself could harm its believers, but I don't think that this is 100% true, or that 100% of Christians are harmed in some way. Its all about how it is taught, and which parts are emphasized the most.

aeroz22 said:

I don't subscribe to all the things that DuckPhup is saying...

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After another 35 or 40 years of dealing with it, you will.

aeroz22 said:

They created in me the need to know and be connected with a deity, the need to know that I will live forever, the need to be with loved ones after death, the fear of death without that promise. And now? I still have those needs, and just live with them being unfulfilled. I fear death; I have had a few panick attacks thinking about it. I fear being separated by death from those I love. I fear my immortality and the knowledge that I only have about 50-60 years left. I fear the end.

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If that helps I haven't been raised to believe in an afterlife (my father doesn't really care about religion, my mother kind of hopes that something is out there but never seemed very intent to convince me) and I still have the same fears.

Naraoia said:

If that helps I haven't been raised to believe in an afterlife (my father doesn't really care about religion, my mother kind of hopes that something is out there but never seemed very intent to convince me) and I still have the same fears.

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From what I've read and experienced, the greatest human fear is the unknown. And what is death but a great big unknown?

Naraoia said:

If that helps I haven't been raised to believe in an afterlife (my father doesn't really care about religion, my mother kind of hopes that something is out there but never seemed very intent to convince me) and I still have the same fears.

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Pretty much opposite with me. I was raised to believe in an afterlife which for some reason made death seems even scarier. I now live comfortably with the belief that bugger all will happen, and thus that once I die I won't notice it.

aeroz22 said:

I don't subscribe to all the things that DuckPhup is saying. What I am saying in my posts should be taken to apply specifically to the fundamentalist Christian denominations and cults--which is where I happen to have experience.

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But it's important to note that the strife between children and parents doesn't exist specifically because they're YECs. The strife would likely be as devastating between Christian parents and non-Christian children, especially if those children have given up the idea of a supreme being all together.

I don't consider teaching one's children what they believe to be child abuse, however. It's most certainly difficult for all involved, including the parents who have lost the relationship with their child every bit as much as the child has lost the relationship with their parents. This is an unfortunate side-effect to the evolution of man's knowledge and is driven to its ultimate height where religion is involved. But religion is the culprit. Whenever beliefs can be shown to be false, they should be openly and blatantly be demonstrated to be false so that the fewest people are harmed. Ignorance and adherence to ignorance should spawn feelings of shame rather than feelings of nobility as promoted by religions. That said, there will always be gaps separating generations where knowledge is concerned. Children have often accepted true knowledge while their parents have held misrepresentations and lies to be truth all of their adult lives. This is likely little more destructive to family relationships than a child who doesn't subscribe to racism while the parents may have owned slaves.

If we are to advance, there will be some knowledge-based separation between generations. How well or poorly the older generations handle the evolutionary separation between their ideas and those of their children is the only part we can hope to control. Religion has always attempted to stifle and retard true knowledge because true knowledge is highly corrosive to any form of mythology.

aeroz22 said:

I think it is possible that Christianity itself could harm its believers, but I don't think that this is 100% true, or that 100% of Christians are harmed in some way. Its all about how it is taught, and which parts are emphasized the most.

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All false beliefs, especially if held vehemently, are harmful to the believers. Merely believing something which isn't true, and believing that their eternal existence teeters upon holding that belief, is psychologically devastating. I know otherwise brilliant people who often make me feel dull, unsophisticated and barely able to hold my head above water intellectually. And yet I see them consciously shirking information simply because (and some have admitted this), it makes them very uncomfortable. So they "believe because they choose to believe", (and yes, that is a quote). This kind of thinking extends even into their political and social lives -- what they prefer not to believe, they consciously motivate themselves not to believe, even if it means blinding themselves to evidence they can't otherwise explain, and separating themselves from those who do not wish to remain blind to evidence.

It's very sad.

Then we have certain "upper-members" over discussion forums who feel they must propagate ignorance by slapping a lock on every informative discussion which only leads to slapping more locks on any attempt to discuss their activities.

Aeroz22: u r teh awsummest!!1!!42! Thanks for posting such a personal testimony. The follow up about your struggles is heartbreaking; the bit about your family is also very sad, and very familiar to me. I'm glad you resurrected this thread, since I wasn't around here in 2005. Keep your head up and remember that the truth is worth pursuing, no matter how scary. You deserve kudos (whether you get it or not) for having the cajones to do so.

(BTW, just so I'm not completely blowing smoke up your @$$, one quibble: I think the term "deconvert" (or "unconvert") is a misnomer, especially since you converted away from what you were raised and, therefore, hadn't converted to in the first place.)

MasterOfKrikkit said:

(BTW, just so I'm not completely blowing smoke up your @$$, one quibble: I think the term "deconvert" (or "unconvert") is a misnomer, especially since you converted away from what you were raised and, therefore, hadn't converted to in the first place.)

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I see what you are saying. However, even a child indoctrinated in the religion is considered not yet "saved," and therefore not yet converted, until the child chooses salvation, at which time he or she is "converted."

But thats just technicalities. What you say has a lot of truth; if the children are indoctrinated into it from birth, are they really being converted to it? Probably not.

However, I was technically saved, and therefore a "convert."

aeroz22 said:

I see what you are saying. However, even a child indoctrinated in the religion is considered not yet "saved," and therefore not yet converted, until the child chooses salvation, at which time he or she is "converted."

But thats just technicalities. What you say has a lot of truth; if the children are indoctrinated into it from birth, are they really being converted to it? Probably not.

However, I was technically saved, and therefore a "convert."

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Ah. I guess I'm thinking more in terms of a "neutral" definition of convert (change from one state to another) rather than the standard Christian definition (becoming a Christian). In the former case, there's really no way to "deconvert" since that is just conversion back to the original state (but still a change from one state to another, thus fitting the definition for "convert"). See? Yes, I'm a semantics nazi I guess the funny thing is that I bring it up at all because it seems strange to me that former-Christian atheists use the term "deconvert" when (given my reasoning above) it really elevates Christianity to a special status -- "conversion" is something special to Christianity -- whereas an atheist should surely view Christianity as nothing special, just another false religion.

Anyway, I really don't give a rodent's gluteal region if you want to use the word or not. I'm not here to derail your thread, so I'll shut up! Back on topic: again, your testimony was moving to read. Thx.