My Final Conclusion about Science and Religion

[Jet Black]

If macroevolution occurs, how come we NEVER see an ape produce a non-ape?

I hope you are aware that it is tripe like that that drove aeroz19 away from christianity, when she learned that all the drivel that she had been fed by the likes of you was a lie and a deception. Congratulations, keep on going, and then the militant atheists who want to destroy christianity can just sit back and do nothing at all while people with fundamentalist uneducated deceptive arguments like yours can tear christianity apart from the inside. I am not saying this is what I want to happen, but I am telling you that this is what you are doing.

 

[setzie]

....
I know you think I am lost. I know exactly why you think so, and I know what you are thinking.

I just read your 3 introductory posts...the title "a final conclusion" is a bit ironic given the content of your posts..
Anyway I am Christian and I couldn't relate to most of the things you wrote about your Christian being.
Frankly, I don't know whether I would have perceived you as a Christian if I had met you personally.
I tend to feel that you were never a Christian really. But that's only my perception from the things you write and the way you write those things.

 

[Jet Black]

......I tend to feel that you were never a Christian really.....

aah the "you weren't a true christian" representatives arrive. how welcoming and loving.

 

[Illuminatus]

I tend to feel that you were never a Christian really.

No True Scotsman!

Drink!

 

[peepnklown]

Ah, the “No True Scotsman” fallacy, how cute.

 

[raphael_aa]

For some of us, at some time in our lives, leaving christianity is a necessary step in our growth. The old structures become confining and we can no longer see our way forward in a nurturing faith. I believe God still goes with us. For some of us, at some time in our lives, we will return to christianity. A christian expression of faith will be the way forward in the next step of our continuing journey. But it will be a new faith, a deeper faith, a more grown-up faith. In any case, God is with us.

 

[setzie]

aah the "you weren't a true christian" representatives arrive. how welcoming and loving.

I am not a representative. It's just my feeling that I express.

I am not saying that he wasn't, just saying that his understanding of Christianity might be a completely different one than mine. And I just can't relate to it, not at all.

It's like someone saying that he can speak German, but me not being able to understand him. In that case I would say that he can't speak German.

 

[Jet Black]

I am not a representative. It's just my feeling that I express.

you are accusing someone of not having been a christian. it's a shame that this isn't as verboten as accusing someone of not being a christian.

 

[setzie]

you are accusing someone of not having been a christian. it's a shame that this isn't as verboten as accusing someone of not being a christian.

Well, I publicised my thoughts. I discerned, I did not judge. Why should it be verboten? It must be the zeitgeist, I guess.

Her thoughts while being a Christian are totally unknowable to me. I don't condemn them, merely it sounds weird to me. I can't relate to that, not at all.

I guess it's like when proper rock groups were accusing one band that they don't represent the true rock music. Some people think that they are bashing them, some people think that they have a point.

 

[aeroz19]

I just read your 3 introductory posts...the title "a final conclusion" is a bit ironic given the content of your posts..

No one else took it that way.

Anyway I am Christian and I couldn't relate to most of the things you wrote about your Christian being.

Independent Baptist and Orthodox Christian are very different.

Frankly, I don't know whether I would have perceived you as a Christian if I had met you personally.

Well, that's ok.

I tend to feel that you were never a Christian really.

Well, I don't recall seeing you around here before. You haven't read that many of my posts (or any at all) from when I was still Christian. You also didn't know me before.

Your sentiments are the same as most other Christians: if you deconvert, you were never really saved anyway.

But that's only my perception from the things you write and the way you write those things.

I am thinking that your response is a little cynical; maybe your felt a little threatened by my apostate testimony.

But, ho hum. Whatever.

 

[aeroz19]

For some of us, at some time in our lives, leaving christianity is a necessary step in our growth. The old structures become confining and we can no longer see our way forward in a nurturing faith. I believe God still goes with us. For some of us, at some time in our lives, we will return to christianity. A christian expression of faith will be the way forward in the next step of our continuing journey. But it will be a new faith, a deeper faith, a more grown-up faith. In any case, God is with us.

That's a refreshing viewpoint. It might just happen to me, too, who knows. I am still a seeker. We'll see. I just started a study on world religions, and it's doing more for my understanding of Christianity than years of sitting in church ever did.

If I ever think about returning, you're the first person I'll contact for info, support, etc.

 

[setzie]

Well, I don't recall seeing you around here before. You haven't read that many of my posts (or any at all) from when I was still Christian. You also didn't know me before.

I am not interested in creation or evolution at all. That's also the thing, among Christians over here it's not an issue really neither for Christians nor for non-Christians. And the fact that you seem to cling very much to creation made me contemplative. It appeares to me like you wanted to prove to yourself all the time that your belief was right. It was too much dispassion in my eyes. I couldn't read the passion between the lines, maybe you can't describe it anymore because you lost it, my conclusion/assumption/intuition was just that you never had it.

Your sentiments are the same as most other Christians: if you deconvert, you were never really saved anyway.

It might be the same sentiment, is my argument also the same? I didn't write the last phrase about deconversion though, it's not up to me.

I am thinking that your response is a little cynical; maybe your felt a little threatened by my apostate testimony.

Maybe, I like being cynical, but only a bit. I tried to express my thoughts as accurate as possible.

 

[Smidlee]

I live in the bible belt where everyone is a christian, it very hard to find anyone here admited they are lost yet I got to wonder why there's some much crimes,drugs and drinking here. Even someone who cheated me claims to be christian so of course I'm a little skeptic with all these claims.Even my paster have been robbed twice (broke in his house during church service) by christians.
This was one reason why Baptist churches in the past was againest baby baptism since it gave people they were christian when later they realize they weren't.
I know of a pastor who have been preaching for years then while he was preaching one Sunday , God convicted him by his own sermon he went to pray at the altar and got save. There have been so many other examples which because someone who was brought up in christianity who made some confession when they were a child later realize they wasn't truely a christian including my pastor and his wife.
P.S. A child can and will ride/live on his/her parents faith and convictions but there comes a day when that child has to stand on his/hers own two feet which I believe is the real age of accountability.

 

[DrunkenWrestler]

I asked for proof from evolutionists, and they gave it to me, especially lucaspa.

Where's lucaspa now?

 

[aeroz22]

Hello everyone,

It has been 3 years now since I posted the original post under my banned username. I have returned now to explain the after-effects of deconversion.

Deconversion from a religious cult such as fundamentalism is extremely dangerous. The past 3 years for me have been the most confusing and painful of my life thus far. I didn't even understand what was going on. But I have come here to tell of my story, my journey.

When I deconverted I had no idea what that would mean for my life. I thought that I would just be able to make a few changes and carry on with life as usual. But it was nothing like that.

While living in the fundie bubble, I was self-confident, mentally and emotionally stable, carefree and fun-loving, but only as long as the lies of fundamentalism were in place. If challenged, all that would change. And it was challenged, and it did change.

For as long as a year out from my deconversion, I was still emotionally and mentally stable, because I was able to control how fast new ideas and concepts came into my world. But then I met and fell in love with my current boyfriend, and he introduced me to a whole new world--his world. It broke me. I ceased to be the self-confident, mentally and emotionally stable person that I was, and I lost interest in many things I used to enjoy--including self-improvement, trying new things, and exploration in general.

The woman he fell in love with was a stable, happy, self-confident person who loved to explore. When I ceased to be that person, things started going downhill. He and I have been in counseling for the past 6 months or so.

And only just this morning, my boyfriend and I put the pieces of the puzzle together and figured out that he fell in love with my ghost--the woman who was stable, fun-loving, self-confident, loved to explore, but only inside of the very thin bubble that was left of my fundamentalism. When he came into my world, he popped the bubble and I collapsed onto the floor and ceased to be that woman that he fell in love with.

Instead, I was stressed all the time, as well as depressed, and I gained weight. I developed chronic stress, and mental, emotional, and physical signs of depression and stress. My daily functioning was impaired. I became a person that lived based on fear and not love.

All these new things that were happening to me caused me more stress. Anything that was negative was a huge, huge stressor. I didn't know how to cope--I had no coping mechanisms. So I just got more stressed and depressed. I was so confused; all the rules I once knew no longer applied, but my need for rules remained. All the assumptions I had were wrong. I didn't fit in reality. But I didn't know that I needed to start over, so I just kept applying what I knew to reality, and it kept not working. I saw myself as a failure, and was more confused than I had ever been before. I didn't understand or know why I was so stressed and confused and worried and depressed and angry.

And for the past 8 months, my boyfriend and I have been on the edge of breakup. The man whom I fell in love with and thought would never leave--the man that I shared my every thought, every dream--the man that I was so intimate with, might be gone out of my life because of the unstable person that I became due to deconversion.

Deconversion will allow you to live in reality, instead of living life based on lies, but the truth really does hurt. Deconversion will uproot the foundations of your life--everything you once knew, not just about science--is wrong. And you must start over again, you must begin anew, as a baby who just entered the world. You must leave behind all your assumptions and stereotypes and attitudes, because they are all based on fallacy. Everything you know and everything you are will change.

And it will cause you great pain.

 

[plindboe]

That's very sad to hear.

My impression when hearing from other deconverts is that the transition phase is often painful, but when it's over and they've found their new place in life they feel happier than they ever did. Perhaps talking with other deconverts might help you.

That said, have you considered that your troubles might not be because of the deconversion? I mean the troubles didn't start until a whole year after deconverting.

Peter

 

[Glass*Soul]

Hi aeroz.

I actually remember this old topic, your OP especially, and oddly enough I was remembering it to myself only a few days ago.

I don't know if it'll be helpful to you for me to share my experience, but there came a point in my own deconversion when I realized that there were certain satisfying moral and psychological truths woven throughout Christ's teachings that weren't dependent on any of the superstitions that I had given up. There was still enough of the structure standing for me to continue building on it without compromising my reason. Sadly, with the exception of a very few, the Christian community does not agree with me on this, so that I cannot, may not, reapproach them on the basis of what we still hold in common. It was a surprising and puzzling discovery. I had actually, naively, hoped for some sense of mutual celebration...I, at least, had felt celebratory about it.

So...yeah...sometimes the bottom does get kicked out and I feel afraid and a bit disoriented.

I recently ended up reading John shelby Spong's Jesus for the Non-religious. People kept recommending it to me and everytime someone did someone else would pipe up and say, "Don't read that. The man's a heretic." So, of course, I was intrigued. He captures my feeling on the matter pretty well. Another book that helped (oddly enough) was C. G. Jung's Answer to Job.

 

[highflyer]

Wow. Aeroz22, I must say you have the most intellectually curious and open approach to the world I think I have ever read and it is incredibly refreshing. I read all of your posts and most of the replies. I was left very saddened by the paucity of empathy you received from Christians, with exceptions, but nevertheless comforted by the help you did receive, mainly from atheists. Either way, the vulnerability of your posts was breathtaking and humbling.

I was a little disappointed in the fact that I would not be able to reply to you directly since your account was inactive, but now you are back I am both glad to be able to respond and touched by your continuing candour about your life situation. Let me first say that whatever happens to you in life (or beyond...?) your honesty and vulnerability will forever mark you out as special. I would be interested in learning your occupation because unless it is Queen of the United Nations you are being underused.

I would be so grateful if you could grace these fora a little longer because it is desperate need of polite, informed debate, especially from people who can write as lucidly and engagingly as you. I pray for your swift recovery of health and though it may be an empty symbol for you and others, regard it as a homing pigeon of love that might, somehow, manifest itself in a tangible form.

So welcome back, and thank you for your thought-provoking and honest words.

 

[aeroz22]

That's very sad to hear.

My impression when hearing from other deconverts is that the transition phase is often painful, but when it's over and they've found their new place in life they feel happier than they ever did. Perhaps talking with other deconverts might help you.

That said, have you considered that your troubles might not be because of the deconversion? I mean the troubles didn't start until a whole year after deconverting.

Peter

I hope I get to that point, where I feel happier than ever. Currently I am at the lowest point in my life and I feel like a lesser person. Its hard to believe I will ever be healthy and happy again. But yes I think you are right--talking to other deconverts would help.

Regarding the troubles and when they started--the therapists I have seen thus far have told me that I have a depressive personality so that has likely contributed a lot to it. But If the deconversion didn't do it, I'm not sure what did.

 

[aeroz22]

Hi aeroz.

I actually remember this old topic, your OP especially, and oddly enough I was remembering it to myself only a few days ago.

It gives me a creepy feeling to know that my words might somewhere, somehow be remembered by someone.

I don't know if it'll be helpful to you for me to share my experience, but there came a point in my own deconversion when I realized that there were certain satisfying moral and psychological truths woven throughout Christ's teachings that weren't dependent on any of the superstitions that I had given up. There was still enough of the structure standing for me to continue building on it without compromising my reason. Sadly, with the exception of a very few, the Christian community does not agree with me on this, so that I cannot, may not, reapproach them on the basis of what we still hold in common. It was a surprising and puzzling discovery. I had actually, naively, hoped for some sense of mutual celebration...I, at least, had felt celebratory about it.

Have you tried a Unitarian Church? I've thought about going to one myself.

So...yeah...sometimes the bottom does get kicked out and I feel afraid and a bit disoriented.

I recently ended up reading John shelby Spong's Jesus for the Non-religious. People kept recommending it to me and everytime someone did someone else would pipe up and say, "Don't read that. The man's a heretic." So, of course, I was intrigued. He captures my feeling on the matter pretty well. Another book that helped (oddly enough) was C. G. Jung's Answer to Job.

I've read his book "Saving the Bible from Fundamentalism." Its hard for me to consider him a Christian. The book made some good points, but it didn't tempt me to come back to Christianity. I have a hard time now seeing how religion can benefit me. Ironically, I almost feel like it would be a sin to return to religion.

A therapist recently recommended two Buddhist books to me, and one new-age type book. So I'll be reading those shortly. She said that all I know is what I do not believe, and that I need to replace the void with that which I do know. So thats the purpose of reading the books.