Originally posted by Shimon
This, I think, is probably the point of confusion.
Well, this and my lack of understanding of what a Messianic Jew is.
I, too, believe that it is God who brought about reconciliation. He reached out to us, we didn't reach out to Him.
But what I'm saying is that the Torah is the method by which He reached out to us.
I would agree except I'd modify it to say that it is
one method by which He reached out to us. I believe, due to the fallen nature of man, that the Law would, and is, nothing but a book to those whom He has not first regenerated.
The Torah is what teaches us about God's nature. It teaches us about His love, His holiness, His justice, His power and strength, etc.
The Torah is the very standard which defines sin. Just as the Apostle Paul says, we wouldn't even know what sin is, if God hadn't told us through the Torah:
I agree with this. I don't know what purpose you think the Law serves but I believe it to be how we grow to know God and form a stronger, more faith based, relationship with Him.
So, what I'm saying is that Yeshua died for the forgiveness of sin, not to abolish the very standard which defines sin.
I agree completely.
Think of it this way: Suppose you and I are out rock-climbing, and I slip and fall onto a small precipice. I'm hanging on for dear life, and could fall at any moment. You stretch out your hand and say "Take my hand and I'll pull you up." If I refuse to grab your hand, it's either because I don't trust you, or because I'm determined to save myself. Either way, I doomed.
God's gift of the Torah is His stretching out His hand. Our acceptance of the Torah is our taking His hand. Now, one might well say "It was Yeshua's death which was God's stretching out His hand, and it is our acceptance of Yeshua as a Savior which our taking His hand," and to that, I say: Yes, that is very true. But Yeshua was the fulfillment of the *Torah*. It's a package deal, you don't accept one without the other.
Well, oddly enough, that is the exact same theme presented in mainstream Christianity. Where I differ is that when I read passages that say "man was
dead in his tresspasses" I know what dead means, and it doesn't mean "able to reach out and take His hand." That's a works based philosophy. To truly understand what it means to be saved when we were God's enemy we must understand that we wouldn't, and didn't, reach out and grab His hand. We were dead. The truth of Scripture is that we were dead and unable and unwilling to reach out and grab His hand. We were doomed and didn't even realize it, at least not in the eternal sense. A more accurate representation along those lines would be this:
Suppose you and I are out rock-climbing, and I slip and fall. As I'm plummeting to my death you reach out and grab me and pull me to safety.
That is being saved.
To elevate our own "acceptance" of God's Word as equal,
or even contributory, in our salvation severely lessens what "being saved" really is. In your analogy, the person who fell wasn't yet dead, or on his way to death. Theoretically, he could have pulled himself to safety. That's not scriptural. We aren't born on the precipice. We are born plummeting towards the earth (our physical death) having already had a heart attack that killed us (our spiritual death). Now, can you imagine someone in that condition reaching our and grabbing God's hand and accepting His salvitic work?
The Jews accept the Written Word while rejecting the Living Word to which it pointed.
Agreed.
Christians accept the Living Word while rejecting the very Written Word which He embodied.
Aside from insulting this is very persumptuous.
It's the same mistake on either side, but in opposite directions.
There are only two sides to this? Let me guess, there's a third side, the side that's "getting it right" and that side is Messianic Judaism, right?
We are to live as Yeshua lived. We are to walk as Yeshua walked. Yeshua lived and walked by Torah.
Kinda forgetting one itsy bitsy little detail. Jesus did not have a nature that was enslaved to it's sinfulness. Nor was He born of the seed of a man. Have you ever met a person, ever, that never sinned? Then what? No one can live as Jesus lived? Our salvation is not based on our ability to not sin. It's His grace that saves us. Yes, we should try to follow God's commandments. However,
every single person who ever lived, except Jesus, broke the Law. The only three people that were ever created/conceived that were not of the seed of a man, who were not born with the stain of original sin, whose very natures weren't enslaved to unrighteousness were Christ, Adam, and Eve. It's not about "keeping the Law." It's about His grace. Keeping the Law is great. Go for it, strive for it, desire to keep the Law. But don't base you salvation on how well you do?
If that is not what you are doing, then I guess that doesn't apply to you.
By the way, you are an extremely intelligent and well spoken/written individual and I'm glad you are here posting.
God bless
