Welcome Preterists and Futurists! Let's hash it out.

Thanks, everyone, for chipping in on the discussion.  Not many Preterists out there to explain things though.  Sadly, Ed has to rely on the explanations and definitions of Preterism from an Anti-Preterist Futurist!  I hope that does not satisfy Ed's Berean tendencies.  See the bottom for more on this.

Ed asked a great question..  How can there be a resurrection of the dead when their bodies remain in the grave?  There are a number of questions that must be asked before we settle on our interpretation of the resurrection.

Another question is "How can the body be raised when it has decomposed? (Jesus' body, which still bore his wounds, was only in the grave three days)"  or a better one is "If you believe that Christians go to heaven when they die, then who are the saints being resurrected?

One statement from Paul through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit answers all these questions.     I Corinthians 15:44: "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

Looking at the resurrection in natural/fleshly terms leads to some of the far-out resurrection theories of Futurists.  They simply have no sciptural support, aside from half-references, vague or variant references, and the like -- all of which require pre-supposition to support.   Without the framework of flesh presupposed, you will not see it there. 

This is the same problem Jesus own disciples had when He started speaking of eating His flesh and drinking His blood.  Without their presupposition of what He meant, they could have comprehended what He was actually saying, which was much deeper than flesh.

If we let the Holy Spirit speak for Himself about the resurrection, we learn something quick.. that "it is raised a spiritual body."  Yet those who call me a heretic are not persuaded, though it is in black and white on the page of their Bibles.   I have even read Futurists who claim that this "spiritual body" is "clearly not a body of spirit, but one of flesh."

Beyond this argument, we must look closer of the consequences of saying the Second Coming of Christ or Resurrection have not yet been fulfilled.  

1) If Christ has not come, then we are still waiting to be where he is. (John 14:3,18,28)
2) If Christ has not come, then we are still waiting for salvation. (Hebrews 9:28, Galatians 5:5, Luke 21:28, Colossians 1:14;Revelation 10:7, Ephesians 4:30) 
3) If Christ has not come, then the dead are still waiting to enter into heaven, and, to this day, "sleep" in their graves, waiting to enter into his rest. (I Corinthians 15:20-23) 
4) If Christ has not come, we are still waiting to be adopted as sons. (Romans 8:23)
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">5)&nbsp;If&nbsp;Christ has not come, we are still dead in our sins. If Jesus is still in the Most Holy Place (Heaven) and our sins will not be&nbsp;forgiven until he leaves. (Hebrews 9:23-28)</SPAN>
6)&nbsp;If we say that Christ has not come, then we make Christ a liar. (Matthew 10:23; 16:27-28; Revelation 21:20)&nbsp;

Those who&nbsp;believe that they will go to heaven when they die must either accept postponement or soul-sleep.&nbsp; The Preterist view of the resurrection&nbsp;explains why you don't have to wait...&nbsp; Just a few arguments directly relative to Resurrection Now.

Obvisouly, Preterists and Futurists (be they Dispensationalists or partial Preterists, etc.) disagree as to the NATURE of the resurrection, as well as the&nbsp;timing.

It is just like Jack Van Impe to judge another man's interpretation using his own hermeneutic (method of interpretation).&nbsp; First, we must settle the nature before even addressing the timing.&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;I side up with&nbsp;the Holy Spirit and Paul&nbsp;in his unambiguous statement:&nbsp; "It is raised a spiritual body."&nbsp; With whom will you stand?

Thanks!

Jason - "So the way preterists believe in the resurrection is that the physical body must die before it's raised, which is why our work in the Lord is not in vain (1 Cor 15:58)"


Actually, this is the view of many Reformed Preterists, but not all.. and certainly not all Preterists. You will find that each Preterist basically speaks for themself. There is no Preterist denomination, Bible, hymnal, college, etc., it is simply a general method of Biblical interpretation. As with all hermeneutics, this one has a wide spectrum of application.

Though some Preterists believe that resurrection is given at physical death, others believe that resurrection is given at spiritual birth. This is what would allow Christ to say that "they who live and believe in me will never die" (John 11:25-26)

Those who believe as such understand that "those who were alive and remained" unto the coming of the Lord were given entrance into the kingdom with the rest of the body of Christ. Nobody was excluded from the grand marriage supper of the Lamb.

Thanks!

Hebrews 9:28 "unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation

Acts 3:19 "That your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ.. whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Dear Christian Brothers and Sisters,

There is a question raised about salvation not needing the second coming of Christ to be fulfilled in Christ's people. This is a common misconception that points straight at the Futurist resurrection problem - failure to see A.D.70 as the end of the world of the Old Covenant.

The Old Covenant had not yet been abolished, at the time of the writing of the New Testament. So long as the temple still stood, and the sacrifices were continually offered, the Old Covenant still stood. (Note: The shaking of the one is the shaking of the other - Heb 12:25-29)

The Bible teaches that the plan of redemption was to be fulfilled in the "parousia" return of Christ (I Cor. 15:22-23).

Christians were still waiting for eternal salvation after the Cross and Pentecost. The earnest expectation of the believers in the "last days" of the Old Covenant "age" had not yet been realized. They had not yet been "further clothed" with the redemption for which they were waiting (II Cor. 5:2-4).

This earnest expectation was, as Paul wrote, that "not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our bodies." (Rom. 8:23). Many try to teach that this is in reference to a purely physical redemption (i.e. redemption of their bodies), but this is an error. Scripture teaches the grand redemption to refer to salvation in Christ:

Acts 3:19 "That your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ.. whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."
I Thess. 5:8-10 "But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."
I Peter 1:9-10 "receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you."

In other words, the believers (whether alive or "asleep") were waiting to be redeemed from spiritual death (cf. Gen 2:17) and the grave, which victory was not yet given at the cross, or at Pentecost (cf. I Cor. 15:54-57) - and that it was going to be given only at the return of Christ.

This point is evident throughout the New Testament. Numerous verses relative to the believers "enduring to the end to be saved", and the like (Matt. 10:22; Heb 6:4-6; Heb 10:26-31, II Peter 2:20- 22, etc.), punctuate the fact that no man prior to the parousia was ever redeemed from death or the grave- they were waiting for the great judgment day, when the "dead in Christ would rise," and Christ would declare, "Come, ye blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

Those who point to a physical resurrection in a spiritual body also miss the greater significance of "the body" in Scripture. Consider, for instance, that we are part of "the body of Christ." We members of His body, flesh and bones -- all very germaine to the study of which "body" is being raised.

But not even going that direction (yet), we can see that the "creature" referred to, as earnestly expecting redemption, is simply that to which Paul referred in Romans 6, as being the "old man," or the "man of sin". Conversely, in Galatians 6:15, Paul declares that those who are redeemed are "a new creature." This conversion, however, would not find its completion or fulness until the return of Christ. I Corinthians 15:22,23 directly says as much:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming."

1) Resurrection in this passage is "being made alive" (redemption)
2) Being made alive does not happen until His coming

An important point: Using the example of Hebrews 11:39,40, is that the Old Testament saints were not given the promised inheritance of everlasting life, at the time of the Cross:

"And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

This is consistent with&nbsp;a number of verses (some of which we are about to see), which declare that the inheritance was still earnestly expected AFTER the cross, and Pentecost. This is consistent with the Old Testament shadow of the high priest entering the holy of holies, and then coming out again, for to declare the sufficiency of the offering, and the atoning of the people. Our high priest presented himself before the Father, and returned to bring salvation with Him. For those who say this was accomplished at the resurrection, they are contradicting the clear statement of Scripture, in the book of Hebrews:

"Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens..

"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us..

So as Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." - Hebrews 8:1; 9:24,28

One immediate ramification of this position is the effect that it has in establishing the long-debated doctrine of the perserverance of the saints. The number of verses that seem to teach that one can lose their salvation must be considered in light of the time-frame in which they were written (i.e. pre A.D. 70). Nobody had yet been redeemed; therefore, one did not lose their salvation in that day, they just never received it, when redemption was brought with Christ from heaven at His second coming.

This is a very important point, as this leaves today's Christians with only two possible considerations: 1) That the same endurance is necessary for maintaining salvation today, or 2) That the redemption, for which they were earnestly waiting, has already occurred!

The elect of the Old Testamentary times were also awaiting of reception of the promises. This is of the utmost significance, as it is assumed that they, of all people, received the entrance into the kingdom at the time of the cross.

Hebrews 11:16 "But now they (the fathers) desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." (cf. vv. 39-40)

Here are some more passages pointing to the futurity after the cross:

Luke 21:19 "In your patience, posses ye your souls."
Luke 21:28 "When these things begin to come to pass, lift up your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh."
Acts 3:19 "That your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ.. whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things (cf. Luke 21:22,32), which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began (cf. Rev. 10:7).
Romans 8:17-18 "And if children, then.. joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be (mello - about to be) revealed in us."
I Cor. 15:53-54 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory ."
II Cor. 5:2-5 "For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven.. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but further clothes upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Galatians 5:5 "For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."
Ephesians 1:14 "ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest (down payment) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession"
Philippians 1:19 "For I (Paul) know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ."
Philippians 2:12 "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
I Thess. 5:8-10 "But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."
Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began."
Hebrews 9:28 "unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation
I Peter 1:4,5 "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith (just as in the OT) unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
I Peter 1:9-10 "receiving the end of you faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you."
I Peter 1:13 "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Summation: The grand drama of the plan of redemption in the first century extended beyond the initial working of Christ's death, burial and resurrection. That was the basis for what was coming next! The believers were awaiting His return in their generation to supply salvation long-awaited, as well as to supply judgment upon those who refused Christ. In A.D.70, the nation of Israel was destroyed, fulfilling both. We now live in the presence of the Father as in the Garden -- seeing Him face to face.

Thanks!