Welcome Preterists and Futurists! Let's hash it out.

[edpobre]

Originally posted by davo
1Thess 4:16-17

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The Greek word "then" is -epeita- and means "after that or afterwards" - it does not necessitate an immediate chronological sequence of events eg.,

1Cor 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

Gal 1:18, 21; 2:21
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. Afterward I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me.

1Cor 15:6-7
After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.

As can be seen by studying and comparing the Greek "then," they which were alive and remaining [till the end ie AD70] later followed in death and were thus joined together with then with Christ forever.

davo

I understand that what you are contending is the interpretation that the DEAD "in Christ" AND those who are ALIVE and remain will be caught up TOGETHER in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air AT THE SAME time.

You wrote that the Greek word "then" is -epeita- and means "after that or afterwards" - it does not necessitate an immediate chronological sequence of events eg.,

I fully agree that in the verses you cited, the word "after that or afterwards" does not necessitate an immediate chronological sequence of events.

However, in the verses in question (1 Thes. 4:16-17), the event that FOLLOWS the resurrection of the DEAD "in Christ" - that of "being caught up" in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air, is an IMMEDIATE chronological sequence of event.

Common sense dictates that the DEAD "in Christ" MUST immediately be caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air. And those who are ALIVE "in Christ" are ALSO caught up TOGETHER with them.

This day is the "Lord's Day" when the heavens and the earth that NOW exist pass away (2 Peter 3:10). This is the day for the "judgment" and "perdition" of UNGODLY  men (2 Peter 3:7). This is the day that God will punish those who do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thes. 1:8-9). And this is the day when those who are "IN Christ" (dead or alive) are caught up. TOGETHER in theclouds to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

Ed

 

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by parousia70
 

Uh, Ed?...

Better check the timeline on your supplied "proof texts" or they will come back to bite ya:

2 Peter 3:10 describes an event that ocourrs prior to the millennium in your particular eschatology.

According to Peter, the Heavens and earth "melt" on the "Day of the Lord" which "Comes as a Theif."

Now, we know from Paul that the "Day of the Lord which comes as a theif" is simultaineous with the resurrection of the Dead and the catching away of the Living.

Now if I'm not mistaken, you hold that "that Day" happens before the Millennium.

Just exactly how many "Theif comings" and"earth meltings" does your theology support?

The Bible teaches that there will only be ONE "thief coming" and "earth melting" and that is on the "day of the Lord" or Judgment day."

That SINGLE day BEFORE the millenium, will be the DAY of "judgment and perdition of UNGODLY men" (2 Peter 3:7). That will be the DAY when those who do NOT know God and who do NOT obey the gospel of Christ will be punished in flaming fire" (2 Thes. 1:8-9). That will be the "DAY of the Lord" which will come as a thief in which the heavens will pass away and the elements will melt with fervent heat, and both the earth and the workls that are in it are burned up" (2 Peter 3:10).

On this SINGLE day before the millenium, ALL tribes on the earth will SEE the Son of Man coming in the clouds (Matt. 24:30) and the "DEAD 'in Christ' will rise first (other dead will rise LATER), THEN those who are ALIVE will be caught up TOGETHER with THEM (the DEAD in Christ) in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air" (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

Will there still be ALIVE people ON earth AFTER this day? I don't think so. The Bible teaches that the "rest of the DEAD" will NOT live again until the 1000 years is finished (Rev. 20:5).

Ed

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by edpobre

Ok then, I apologize for calling you blind. But are your eyes OPEN to the TRUTH that "together" ALWAYS mean "at the same time?"

Ed  [/B]

I honestly don't know After having read it, I see two possible explanations of the passage.  The one I shared and the one you shared.

God bless!

-Jason

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by edpobre
The Bible teaches that there will only be ONE "thief coming" and "earth melting" and that is on the "day of the Lord" or Judgment day."

That SINGLE day BEFORE the millenium, will be the DAY of "judgment and perdition of UNGODLY men" (2 Peter 3:7). That will be the DAY when those who do NOT know God and who do NOT obey the gospel of Christ will be punished in flaming fire" (2 Thes. 1:8-9). That will be the "DAY of the Lord" which will come as a thief in which the heavens will pass away and the elements will melt with fervent heat, and both the earth and the workls that are in it are burned up" (2 Peter 3:10).

On this SINGLE day before the millenium, ALL tribes on the earth will SEE the Son of Man coming in the clouds (Matt. 24:30) and the "DEAD 'in Christ' will rise first (other dead will rise LATER), THEN those who are ALIVE will be caught up TOGETHER with THEM (the DEAD in Christ) in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air" (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

Will there still be ALIVE people ON earth AFTER this day? I don't think so. The Bible teaches that the "rest of the DEAD" will NOT live again until the 1000 years is finished (Rev. 20:5).

Ed

Ed,
In your theology, just where does the Millennium take place? The new earth or the old earth?
Like I said, better check your timelines or they'll come back to bite ya.

You have the earth destroyed before the millennium, while scripture places the destruction of the old earth and institution of the New earth, after the millennium. (Rev 20-21)

Simply untenable.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I used to try and discuss the rapture myth with folks... and it seems no body ever changes their minds in this sort of forum. Everyone comes in with their minds made up and nobody changes them.

I was wondering... has anyone ever changed their position from preterist to future or the other way?

I am just curious about how people change their minds.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by parousia70
Ed,
In your theology, just where does the Millennium take place? The new earth or the old earth?
Like I said, better check your timelines or they'll come back to bite ya.

You have the earth destroyed before the millennium, while scripture places the destruction of the old earth and institution of the New earth, after the millennium. (Rev 20-21)

Simply untenable.

The earth will be likened to a frying pan when the Lord Jesus comes again. What you are frying may burn but the frying pan  itself remains intact.

At any rate, as long as I will be where Christ is (John 14:3) and will reign with him during the 1000 years (Rev. 20:4), I don't care WHERE the Millennium takes place.

Rev. 20:7-9 and on to verse 15 describe what will happen after the 1000 years is finished.

Then a new heaven and a new earth will replace the old and the holy city, the New Jerusalem will come down from heaven (Rev. 21:1-2).

Thus will be fulfilled what Isaiah 7:14 says: ...his name shall be called Immauel, which means "God with us" ..because as recorded in Rev. 21:3, "God will dwell WITH us" (those who are "IN" Christ - 1 Thes. 4:16-17 or Christ's - Gal. 3:29).

Ed

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by didaskalos
I used to try and discuss the rapture myth with folks... and it seems no body ever changes their minds in this sort of forum. Everyone comes in with their minds made up and nobody changes them.

I was wondering... has anyone ever changed their position from preterist to future or the other way?

I am just curious about how people change their minds.

Hi didaskalos,

I used to believe that Jesus is God. Not anymore.

I used to believe that "faith alone" saves. Not anymore.

I used to believe that "once saved always saved." Not anymore.

I used to believe that baptism is NOT necessary to salvation. Not anymore.

I used to believe that membership in the church is NOT relevant to salvation. Not anymore.

I was once a Baptist. Not anymore.

What made me REPENT and be CONVERTED (Acts 3:19) or in secular words -change my mind?

1) I TRULY believe that the Bible is the WORD of God;

2) I TRULY believe God and Jesus;

3) I pride myself in having a "word of honor." When I say something, I TRULY mean it;

4) My DESIRE to be saved is MORE than my desire to please  myself and oher people;

5) I don't owe anybody anything. Thus, I am NOT obligated to believe what they tell me;

6) I use Jesus WORDS as my guide in evaluating the truth or falsehood of anything anyone tells me.

Ed

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by edpobre


Thus will be fulfilled what Isaiah 7:14 says: ...his name shall be called Immauel, which means "God with us" ..because as recorded in Rev. 21:3, "God will dwell WITH us" (those who are "IN" Christ - 1 Thes. 4:16-17 or Christ's - Gal. 3:29).

Ed

Ed,
God does dwell with us.

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by didaskalos
I used to try and discuss the rapture myth with folks... and it seems no body ever changes their minds in this sort of forum. Everyone comes in with their minds made up and nobody changes them.

I was wondering... has anyone ever changed their position from preterist to future or the other way?

I am just curious about how people change their minds.

Didask,

While most preterists were once futurist (like myself), I have yet to come across a single "ex-preterist".

As for me, Scripture changed my mind from futurism to preterism.

 

[jenlu]

Originally posted by didaskalos
I used to try and discuss the rapture myth with folks... and it seems no body ever changes their minds in this sort of forum. Everyone comes in with their minds made up and nobody changes them.

I was wondering... has anyone ever changed their position from preterist to future or the other way?

I am just curious about how people change their minds.

 

I changed positions myself as well...futurist to partial futurist and on my way to preterist...

 

[armothe]

Originally posted by didaskalos
I was wondering... has anyone ever changed their position from preterist to future or the other way?
I am just curious about how people change their minds.

I was a hardcore Futurist....had all the wonderful timelines memorized about how the end of the world would go down.
Even then I knew that some of the things I argued on behalf of were false.

I am now a Preterist and things make so much more sense.

I don't know of any Preterist that has gone back to Futurism.

-A

 

[EPHRIAM777]

Originally posted by Annabel Lee

"Sarcasm, just one more service I offer"

Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.


Eph writes...

A....HAR DE HAR HAR....A Klingon chick with a sence of humor..!

I'm tellin WORF on you...!


LOL

 

[EPHRIAM777]

Originally posted by edpobre


I used to believe that Jesus is God. Not anymore.

I used to believe that "faith alone" saves. Not anymore.

I used to believe that "once saved always saved." Not anymore.

I used to believe that baptism is NOT necessary to salvation. Not anymore.

I used to believe that membership in the church is NOT relevant to salvation. Not anymore.

"""""I was once a Baptist""""""". Not anymore.



Eph writes...

OH well why didn't you SAY so before...Now I see what the problem was...!!!!


Ed goes on to say...

What made me REPENT and be CONVERTED (Acts 3:19) or in secular words -change my mind?

Eph writes..

Ahh ya still got some "residue" water in ye ears from those Baptists to shake off Ed.....RE read Romans 2:4 when you have a chance..yep GOD leads you...Not you...!

Acts 3:19..is after the fact of Romans 2:4...!


Ed writes his new 6 statements of Faith...

1) I TRULY believe that the Bible is the WORD of God;

Eph asks...

WHICH Bible is that ED..?? The "mormons have a book they claim is their "bible"...so do the Roman Catholic's....So what does bible mean to you..I'd like to know if it's what I call THE Bible or not..!

Ed says...

2) I TRULY believe God and Jesus;

Eph asks..

Well what does "believe" mean to you Ed..? Does it mean what the Baptists think...because NT FAITH and the word Believe..are not synonyms my friend..( thats words that mean the same thing )..FAITH is a VERB..!

Ed writes..
3) I pride myself in having a "word of honor." When I say something, I TRULY mean it;

Eph wonders...??

I wonder what your word of honor meant before when you were still a Baptist and OF their group..I'm sure you "gave your word of honor"...at your Baptism by those Baptists you claimed to be a part of...So are you saying it changes from religion to religion..

Kinda like a flavor of the month "word of honor" type thing huh....?

For extra credit ED...I'd throw in a question to you like..."Prove to us now ED...your not gonna " flip " again in another month or so ...to another new
" flavor of religion that comes with another NEW word of honor "...!

Ed thinks...
4) My DESIRE to be saved is MORE than my desire to please  myself and oher people;

Eph writes...

Hmm...that of course isn't what Jesus said...so this here is personal feelings..not scriptural fact..! OR could this be found in your new Bible somewhere...?

Ed says...
5) I don't owe anybody anything. Thus, I am NOT obligated to believe what they tell me;

Eph replies...

Re double your studies of EPH 4:11:12...then repeat your words next to those verses...! See which ones match ok...??

Ed writes...
6) I use Jesus WORDS as my guide in evaluating the truth or falsehood of anything anyone tells me.

Eph says..

Yes I see you do....! By the way Ed..who do YOU say Jesus Christ is...?? I'm just wondering...!

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by parousia70
Didask,

While most preterists were once futurist (like myself), I have yet to come across a single "ex-preterist".

As for me, Scripture changed my mind from futurism to preterism.

What about full preterists to partial preterist??

I know of one who went from full to partial, but it seems he had an incorrect teaching on full, thus he went to partial...then again I guess he was never full to begin with

-Jason

 

[Hoonbaba]

By the way....

I was also a big time futurist. But I was scarred by 'left behind' teachings, especially the idea that if being left behind. Eventually I stumbled upon some articles on the secular web that convinced me that left behind theology has some serious problems. Fortunately, preterism has given me good reason to trust in Him and it reversed all the scars of left behind theology.

Personally, I think dispensationalism is garbage (this of course is my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own opinions). But I think the other views amillennialism and postmillennialism is far more encouraging for futurists.

All that dispensationalism ever did was prevent me from walking with God.

-Jason

 

[JesusServant]

I don't know how you guys manage to hold on to preterism.  You can't argue half of Revelation and ignore the other half.

Where is Christ on his throne reigning the nations of this earth?

(Rev 20:2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Rev 20:3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. (Rev 20:6) Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,(Rev 20:8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.(Rev 20:9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.(Rev 20:10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.(Rev 20:11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.(Rev 20:12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.(Rev 20:13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.(Rev 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.(Rev 20:15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

If preterism is true, then we're all now in the lake of fire or we're being ruled by God on his throne in New Jerusalem.  Not only that BUT HE WALKS AMONG US NOW!!! AWESOME!

(Rev 21:3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.(Rev 21:4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I cried the other day, nope, hasn't happened yet.  Wake up preterists you're missing out on the hope of Christ's return!  I pray you wake up!!!

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by Hoonbaba
By the way....

I was also a big time futurist. But I was scarred by 'left behind' teachings, especially the idea that if being left behind. Eventually I stumbled upon some articles on the secular web that convinced me that left behind theology has some serious problems. Fortunately, preterism has given me good reason to trust in Him and it reversed all the scars of left behind theology.

Personally, I think dispensationalism is garbage (this of course is my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own opinions). But I think the other views amillennialism and postmillennialism is far more encouraging for futurists.

All that dispensationalism ever did was prevent me from walking with God.

-Jason

Huh?  Your fear of being 'left behind' scared you into another theology?  That's hardly a good reason.  I don't believe in pre-trib rapture, but I know Jesus is coming back.  You can't just ignore half of a book in the Bible and use the other half for your argument.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by parousia70
Didask,

While most preterists were once futurist (like myself), I have yet to come across a single "ex-preterist".

As for me, Scripture changed my mind from futurism to preterism.

Tell me HONESTLY Parousia70. If you were and ex-futurist who became a Preterist then went back to being a Futurist, would you open your mouth? I don't think so.

Ed

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by edpobre
Tell me HONESTLY Parousia70. If you were and ex-futurist who became a Preterist then went back to being a Futurist, would you open your mouth? I don't think so.

Ed

Is there some logic to this?

Why wouldn't I "open my mouth" about it?

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by EPHRIAM777

Originally posted by edpobre

I used to believe that Jesus is God. Not anymore.

I used to believe that "faith alone" saves. Not anymore.

I used to believe that "once saved always saved." Not anymore.

I used to believe that baptism is NOT necessary to salvation. Not anymore.

I used to believe that membership in the church is NOT relevant to salvation. Not anymore.

"""""I was once a Baptist""""""". Not anymore.

Eph writes...

OH well why didn't you SAY so before...Now I see what the problem was...!!!!

Would you be honest enough to tell me what you think the problem was?

Ed goes on to say...

What made me REPENT and be CONVERTED (Acts 3:19) or in secular words -change my mind?

Eph writes..

Ahh ya still got some "residue" water in ye ears from those Baptists to shake off Ed.....RE read Romans 2:4 when you have a chance..yep GOD leads you...Not you...!

Apparently your mind has been programmed to believe that God DOES everything for you. As for me, I KNOW that it was the goodness of God that led me to REPENT and be CONVERTED. 

Acts 3:19..is after the fact of Romans 2:4...!

I know. BEFORE I had a change of mind (repented and be converted), I HEARD (came to KNOW) about the "goodness of God," His love for the world, and His PLAN of Salvation through His Son, Jesus.

Ed writes his new 6 statements of Faith...

1) I TRULY believe that the Bible is the WORD of God;

Eph asks...

WHICH Bible is that ED..?? The "mormons have a book they claim is their "bible"...so do the Roman Catholic's....So what does bible mean to you..I'd like to know if it's what I call THE Bible or not..!

Are you familiar with the King James Version, Today's English Version, New International Version, Contemporary English Version, The Living Bible, The Everyday Bible, Revised Standard Version, Moffat, Lamsa, to name a few? Have you ever read any of these?

Ed says...

2) I TRULY believe God and Jesus;

Eph asks..

Well what does "believe" mean to you Ed..? Does it mean what the Baptists think...because NT FAITH and the word Believe..are not synonyms my friend..( thats words that mean the same thing )..FAITH is a VERB..!

Tell me what you mean by these two words. You seem like you can teach me a thing or two.

Ed writes..

3) I pride myself in having a "word of honor." When I say something, I TRULY mean it;

Eph wonders...??

I wonder what your word of honor meant before when you were still a Baptist and OF their group..I'm sure you "gave your word of honor"...at your Baptism by those Baptists you claimed to be a part of...So are you saying it changes from religion to religion..

Kinda like a flavor of the month "word of honor" type thing huh....?For extra credit ED...I'd throw in a question to you like..."Prove to us now ED...your not gonna " flip " again in another month or so ...to another new
" flavor of religion that comes with another NEW word of honor "...!

Having a "word of honor" is inherent in a person. It has nothing to do with religion. Most people either say Yes or No but don't really mean it.  Most people I meet say they believe God, they believe the Bible, they believe Jesus and what he says. But show them John 8:40 and John 17:3 and guess what - they donn't believe the Bible nor Jesus at all!

Ed thinks...

4) My DESIRE to be saved is MORE than my desire to please  myself and oher people;

Eph writes...

Hmm...that of course isn't what Jesus said...so this here is personal feelings..not scriptural fact..! OR could this be found in your new Bible somewhere...?

Of course this is MY personal feeling! Only a blind would think that this is from the Bible.

Ed says...

5) I don't owe anybody anything. Thus, I am NOT obligated to believe what they tell me;

Eph replies...

Re double your studies of EPH 4:11:12...then repeat your words next to those verses...! See which ones match ok...??

Nobody is under any obligation to listen to anyone. Eph. 4:11-12 has NOTHING to do with my statement.

Ed writes...

6) I use Jesus WORDS as my guide in evaluating the truth or falsehood of anything anyone tells me.

Eph says..

Yes I see you do....! By the way Ed..who do YOU say Jesus Christ is...?? I'm just wondering...!

I see that you are new to this forum and you haven't come across any of my posts. Jesus is NOT God. The FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40).

But Jesus, although a MAN, is ABOVE every man. He is Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36). God GAVE him a name ABOVE every name under heaven (Phil. 2:9). God MADE him Savior and AUTHORIZED him to FORGIVE sins (Acts 5:31). He is the ONLY mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5). He is the judge (Acts 17:31). He was GIVEN by God all authority in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18). God PERORMED miracles, wonders and signs THROUGH Jesus (Acts 2:22).

God RAISED Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9). Jesus could do NOTHING by himself (John 5:19) and Jesus SAID tht the Father is GREATER than him (John 14:28) and GREATER than all (John 10:29).

Ed