HELL! : Is it real?

noachian said:

Gary I respect you, but here you haven't answered Racers points, you've just mocked them.

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Thank you for your respect... but respect that I will debate with him my way.

I can't resist posting this paper I wrote a couple a days since every one is getting on topic of the two witnesses and etc... I wrote this a couple days ago and I'm sure it will be controversial because I have cited the Gospel of Nicodemus, Jasher and some other things.... it is not complete so I'll def receive thoughts and feed back...




[FONT=&quot] The church has severally warped our perception of what happens when we die. Do we go to heaven? Do we go to hell? What does death really mean? We have inherited many un-scriptural doctrines and mindsets of many things relating to death, judgment, and what happens when we die. The purpose of these notes is to scripturally scratch the surface of what many have been afraid of. It must also be understood that drawing conclusions and opinions that goes outside of what is clearly outlined and defined in the Word of YHVH could contribute to creation of falsehood doctrine and theologies.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Objectives[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Identify surface level conclusions on the following:[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]First Death (disembodied existence)[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Sheol (or Hades)[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]First and Second Resurrection [/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Second Death[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Death[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Death in the mindset of a Hebrew is nothing more than a natural experience that all must go through. Even when it occurs unexpectedly, it is welcomed – the end is not yet. The emphasis of covenant relationship with the God of Israel is so defining that it carries even unto death and then unto life once again. The Hebraic view of death is referred to as a state of rest, or “sleep” that continues until the beginning of the Messianic age where it is believed that those who maintain a covenant relationship with the Mighty One is resurrected through faith. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] As previously stated, death is often attributed to the term “fallen asleep” in the Hebraic culture. Because death is not viewed as the end, but believes that their faith continues after death in hope of taking part in the resurrection during the Messianic age.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] With this in mind, it is interesting to review why Abel’s blood cried out from the ground if faith continues past death.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Interesting enough, along the lines of faith and existence after death, we will later see that repentance can be practiced in Sheol. We will also see that since Sheol is under YHVH’s jurisdiction, it must be subject to Torah.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Little do most that are in modern-day Judaism know that the Brit Chadasha, or New Testament, testifies one hundred percent with the Hebraic view of death, Sheol, resurrection and judgment. Just the same, how unfortunate that mainstream Christianity has come up with bogus and unscriptural claims that we go to either heaven or hell when we die.[/FONT]

First, let’s clear up some confusion by going way back. You first made this comment to someone, I don’t remember who: Not one of your verses says anything about humans being tortured eternally.

I asked: Then, exactly according to your understanding, what do they say?

To which you responded: Romans 23.

Now, imagine you are me. How exactly does your last reply address my question, “according to your understanding what do these verses say?” Are you saying that the verses provided to you only restate what Romans 23 says?

Because I then asked: So, this verse says the wages of sin is death? Why do you choose to hold this verse above all others? Like these that have been provided to you? What do they mean to you?

Like I explained to you before, “I” inferred from your response that you found Romans 23 to be credible, but appeared to be dismissing the other verses quoted to you. Is that what you are doing? Or are you simply saying that the other verses mean the same as Romans 23?

So, anyhow, your response to my above questions in red, was completely off the wall and made no sense to me. You responded to my questions with a question, (which btw is considered dodging for everybody, even you). Here’s your response: How will your interpretation of scripture change me?

So, I ask you again, how does that apply to my questions. I’ve given you none of my own personal interpretations nor mentioned attempting to change you. So, forgive me if I’m confused.

Now, I’ll attempt to make some sense out of this post and try to clarify some things.

Gary51 said:

This verse proves that men can kill the human body, but not the soul, which the passage reveals God can destroy. The “soul” is the life in a person, and this can only be a reference to eternallife, because any man can take the physical life of another human being.

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Gary51 said:

Ezekiel 18:4 and 20 plainly state that souls can die. Romans 6:23 agrees with that. However, at baptism, our “life” is hid with Christ (Col. 3:3) and belongs only to Him.

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Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Okay, I agree with you that Mat 10:28 states that man can kill the body and not the soul. But, how are you relating it to Romans 6:23; For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord? Romans says that the wages of sin is death—Only God can make this judgment. Man does not dole out God’s judgment. So, I’m confused about what exactly your point is.

However, Ezekiel 18:4; Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. 18:20; The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Ezekiel is Old Testament Scripture, the “souls” of Ezekiel were judged according to the “Law,” they were ruled by the “Law.” So, read the rest of Romans 6:14; For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. The “soul” no longer dies. Now, if you take Romans 6:23 all by itself, discounting the rest of Scripture and all other evidence provided to you here, you could interpret that, hey if we sin, we die, turn to dust, eaten by worms, but we will feel nothing. But, isn’t that wishful thinking? Isn’t it a tad naïve? If we believe and repent, serve the Lord and lead a good Christian life we are rewarded in heaven. However, if we serve another master, even if that master is none other than ourselves, we don’t suffer, we just die? I could rest easy at night if I believed that.

Continued . . . .

[FONT=&quot]Sheol[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The idea of entering Sheol when one dies is not foreign to a Hebrew. It is understood that as we are born into sin, that we die into sin just the same, with nothing more than our faith, which continues after physical death and supplies us until the Messianic age and return of Yeshua.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Sheol as defined in Strong’s (#H7585) says: [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Its uses can refer to its actual location or as the idea of a disembodied existence. It seems to be an intermediate between life (or resurrection) and death (the second death aka Lake of Fire or Gehenna). It is where we all go when we die. Into Sheol when physical life ends, to the actual location as well as the idea of an disembodied existence. [/FONT]


Ø[FONT=&quot]Referred to as underworld or pit[/FONT]
Ø[FONT=&quot]A place of silence where there is no remembrance or praise of YHVH[/FONT]
Ø[FONT=&quot]Land of darkness and the shadow of death[/FONT]
Ø[FONT=&quot]Land of forgetfulness and where YHVH’s “wonders” are unknown[/FONT]


Ø[FONT=&quot]Welcomed as a place of rest and sleep[/FONT]
Ø[FONT=&quot]Not a state of complete unconsciousness[/FONT]


Ø[FONT=&quot]Not outside of YHVH’s jurisdiction[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] The Gospel of Nicodemus is probably one of the most controversial texts written, but we can see a very detailed description of the events that took place when Yeshua descended into Sheol. When we approach this event with a Hebraic mindset and understanding of the Scriptures it’s easy to find the truth. The purpose of this section is to address just a couple of interesting points having to do with His descent.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot] It records that as soon as Yeshua started descending, His very light began to stir and awake everyone and everything in Sheol. It’s very interesting to once again see that the righteous are awaken and possibly disturbed, similar to the case with Samuel in 1 Samuel 28. We also see that John the Baptist is quickly identified and begins to preach a message of repentance and prepares the way of the Lord once again:[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot] The idea that John the Baptist continued sharing a repentance message even after death is quite astonishing. I do not have enough evidence in the Scriptures to say that it is possible for all men to repent after death in Sheol, but we can clearly see that at Yeshua’s arrival to Sheol, that John told everyone to do so and taught them:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Bypassing a lot of arguments between the care-taker of Sheol (referred to as Hades, an entity) and Satan Himself, Hades actually gets quite upset with Satan about the fact that He led the Jewish people to hang Him on a tree. Satan exhorts Hades and says that together they can secure Yeshua. He claims that despite how He walked His life, He is still a human being. It is all quite similar to how Satan tempted Yeshua in the wilderness, thinking that because He is a human that He can still fall and takes confidence in that.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot] A quite amazing event is to how Hades test testifies to the event where Yeshua raised Lazarus from the dead:[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot] Hades was still awe struck by the fact that Lazarus was drug by force out of Sheol by a single word. Because of the events in the Book John, we know that this was the Word of Yeshua. It can also be seen here again that death is being attributed to sleep:[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot] On a final note regarding Yeshua’s descent to Sheol, when He was leading the righteous patriarch’s and prophets out, when they all arrived in paradise they were very surprised to meet two men, who had their bodies and souls. Enoch and Elijah, the only two men to never have tasted death:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] And as they were going into the door of paradise, there met them two old men, to whom the holy fathers said: Who are you, who have not seen death, and have not come down into Sheol, but who dwell in paradise in your bodies and your souls? One of them answered, and said: I am Enoch, who was well-pleasing to God, and who was translated hither by Him; and this is Elijah the Thesbite; and we are also to live until the end of the world; and then we are to be sent by God to withstand Antimessiah, and to be slain by him, and after three days to rise again, and to be snatched up in clouds to meet the Lord[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] This clearly testifies to who the two witnesses are. It is unfortunate that people discredit Enoch as being a witness. A large part of this is because a lot of Enoch’s ministry and history is unknown, but this can be unveiled by studying the Book of Enoch and Book of Jasher, where we see that he ascended very similar to that of Elijah:[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot] We know that the two witnesses cannot have tasted death, and must have their original bodies intact. Since the beginning of time, this has only happened to Enoch and Elijah. Moses is would not be qualified as a witness according to the requirements of the Scriptures. It is almost frightening how similar Revelation 11 is to Chapter 9 in of the Gospel of Nicodemus:[/FONT]

Continued from above . . .

But, what else does Scripture say? What about Satan and his fallen angels? Are they just dead? Or are they residing somewhere else?

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


Rev 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Rev 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Rev 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Notice, the reference to lake of fire and brimstone, torment day and night forever, and the “second death.” To me, the reference to a “second death” is a clue that that maybe “death” is not a final act or end to existence. Perhaps, it is just an end to our tenure on earth.

Now, look at Isaiah and what it says about Lucifer:

Isa 14:12; How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

14:13; For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14:14; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

14:15; Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

14:16; They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

14:17; [That] made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; [that] opened not the house of his prisoners?

14:18; All the kings of the nations, [even] all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

14:19; Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, [and] slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Here we have a Scriptural reference to Hell. I don’t know, someone will probably come along and give some explanation regarding language and interpretation.

Then there’s more in the book of Matthew:

Mat 25:41; Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:45; Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
Mat 25:46; And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So, the distinction is clear to me at least, there’s either “life eternal,” or “everlasting punishment.”

[FONT=&quot]First Resurrection[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot] At the end of Revelation, we see the fulfillment of the resurrection for the faithful. This is the promised resurrection that takes place at the beginning of the Messianic era. All the faithful are raised from the dead and reign 1,000 years with Yeshua the Messiah on earth. This is the first resurrection in which the second death has no power. Those who are raised enter the Kingdom of God. In most simple terms, this is heaven and eternal life… the second death has no power over this resurrection. [/FONT]




[FONT=&quot]Second Death[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot] Right off, we can see a connection to those found in Sheol by comparing Rev 20:12 to Job[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3:19:[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot] There are some very interesting points to make in Rev 20:12-15, but in summary we see that all those who were not part of the first resurrection, show up in this second resurrection and are judged according to their works, both good and bad. Does this mean that there is another opportunity to enter the Kingdom in this resurrection? We can’t see that clearly in the Scriptures, but what we can see is that those who are not found in the Book of Life are at this time thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death, and is what Yeshua was talking about in Matthew 10:28 in reference to killing the body and soul in Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Conclusion[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] In conclusion we see that once again the direction of the Church is the wrong way. While it may be true that such doctrines aren’t really that important, there is truth in the Scriptures when you look. The Scriptures testify nothing to going to Heaven or Hell when we die, but instead we enter a location known as Sheol as well as the idea of a disembodied existence, righteous and unrighteous alike. At the beginning of the Messianic era, the righteous are risen again to reign with Christ for 1,000 years according to Rev 20:4. Those who did not partake in the first resurrection take part in a second resurrection which occurs at the end of the 1,000 years. They are judged by their works and those not found in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire.[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]Questions & additions that remain[/FONT][FONT=&quot]:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Abraham’s bossom and Lazarus in Luke 16[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Gary51 said:

Acts 24:15
I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Revelation 20:15
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

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Gary51 said:

I don't know what point you wish me to understand.

Explain.

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I was not trying to make you understand anything. I asked you why you place Romans 6:23 above the clear meaning of these verses. What do you believe these two verses mean about death and hell?

Gary51 said:

Atheism, as a philosophical view, is the position that either affirms the nonexistence of gods[1] or rejects theism.[2] When defined more broadly, atheism is the absence of belief in deities

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheismhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

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Thank you for saving me some work. Please reread the definition. It says: "atheism is the absence of belief in deities" It does not say absence of "belief." There is a difference.

racer said:

[/color]

I was not trying to make you understand anything. I asked you why you place Romans 6:23 above the clear meaning of these verses. What do you believe these two verses mean about death and hell?

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One must enter thru the veil, which is the Flesh of our Lord Jesus.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Leviticus 23:42 `In booths/05521 cukkah ye dwell seven days; all who are natives in Israel dwell in booths/05521 cukkah,

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and booths/eskhnwsen <4637> (5656) IN US, and we esteem the glory of Him, glory as an Only-generated beside Father. Full of grace and truth

Revelation 21:3 and I hear a voice, great, out of the heaven, saying, `Behold!, the booth/skhnh <4633> of the God with the men, and He shall be boothing/skhnwsei <4637> (5692) with them, and they, peoples of Him shall be and He, the God is with them

I would like to share an MP3 link with everyone:
http://www.bringyou.to/ScottHahnBAM1990.mp3

The reason I am posting this is to try and foster a polite, respectful exchange of ideas. This is a 1990 episode of the Bible Answer Man, a protestant radio show. The guest is Dr. Scott Hahn, a Catholic theolgian. It is a great example of Catholics and protestants exchanging views in a respectful, charitable manner - as it should be. (Eastern Orthodox too: Sorry to leave you out of the mix.) I believe everyone here (including myself) could learn from this. I hope that you will all take an hour out of your day to relax and listen to it.

Gary51 said:

For you to understand my point, you need to understand the meaning of the word Atheist... which you do not.

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Gary51 said:

As you clearly have no understanding of what it is to be an atheist... your surprise will come if you ever find out.

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So, now we move from sarcasm to condescension . . . . Does this discussion hold any valid point or value to you or do you just enjoy dancing in circles?

Obviously

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Sometimes, when you have no response, it&#8217;s better to just say nothing.

Is that what you call it?

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Well, let me rephrase that, &#8220;I am attempting to have a conversation with you.&#8221; It appears I&#8217;m failing miserably.

Which track would that be?

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You mean you don&#8217;t know? Hmm, apparently I&#8217;ve given you far to much credit.

Yes Sir.

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Great! When?

Have you Sir? Whatever you say sir.

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Would your name happen to be Peppermint Patty?

The one you are making now Sir.

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Still didn&#8217;t answer the question. What noise have I made about atheism?

I'll try Sir

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Anytime soon?

Can't I Sir.

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Let me rephrase that statement, &#8220;You haven&#8217;t refuted my assertions.&#8221;

OK Sir

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I didn't use sarcasm... Sir

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So, Peppermint Patty has controlled the conversation thus far, now Lucy is butting in . . . Good grief, Charlie Brown!!!

Thank you for the advice sir

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Anytime I can be of service . . . .

You didn't sir... that's the problem

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Does your memory fail you? You are the one who asked me how &#8220;my interpretation&#8221; was supposed to change your beliefs. That implies that I&#8217;ve given you some type of &#8220;interpretation.&#8221;

Is that sarcasm, Sir

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Uh . . . Yep! Amazing, tho, that you can be so proficient at using sarcasm on others, yet are uncertain when the tables have been turned on you?

No need to shout Sir.

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Not shouting, simply emphasizing.

Because you didn't tell me how you understood those verses,Sir. I don't know how you interpet them, Sir.

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Why do you need to know how I interpret those verses to answer the questions I&#8217;ve asked you?

I did Sir, it's in post #150

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If you pay really close attention, you&#8217;ll notice that the post to which you are now responding, was posted in response to your post #149. I had yet to get to your explanation in post #150.

LittleLambofJesus said:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 8:12 The yet Sons of the Kingdom shall-be-being-cast-out/ek-blhqhsontai <1544> (5701) into the darkness, the outer/exwteron <1857>, there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.

Reve 11:2 and the Court/aulhn <833>, the-one with-out of-the Sanctuary, be you Casting Out!!/ek-bale <1544> (5628) out-side/exw <1854> and not her you should be measuring, that she was given to the nations.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2450494&page=5
Moses Tabernacle and God's Plan of Redemption

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Hi. I never saw a response to my post. What does the greek word "geennh" mean and where does it come from? Thanks.

Matt 23:33 Serpents generation/gennhmata <1081> of vipers how ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV.

Luke 22:18 "For I am saying unto ye that not no I may be drinking from the now, from the generating?/gennhmatoV <1081> of the vine/ampelou <288> til of which the Kingdom of the God may be coming". [Matt 26:29, Mark 14:29]

LittleLambofJesus said:

Hi. I never saw a response to my post. What does the greek word "geennh" mean and where does it come from? Thanks.

Matt 23:33 Serpents generation/gennhmata <1081> of vipers how ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV.

Luke 22:18 "For I am saying unto ye that not no I may be drinking from the now, from the generating?/gennhmatoV <1081> of the vine/ampelou <288> til of which the Kingdom of the God may be coming". [Matt 26:29, Mark 14:29]

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LLoJ,

Love you dearly, but I don't really know the answer to that and don't have much time for research. And, usually your posts lose me . . . :o

racer said:

LLoJ,

Love you dearly, but I don't really know the answer to that and don't have much time for research. And, usually your posts lose me . . . :o

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The Jews have no concept of a literal roasting hellfire that people go to. It appears to be a Christ-ian and Muslim only thing.

Luke is the only one in the Gospels that mentions the word "Lake", and coincidentally if one takes time to study the Divine Greek texts, one can see how this "lake gennesaret" resembles the greek word "gehenna". Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Luke 5:1 It became yet, in the of the throng to be nearing to Him to be hearing the word of the God, and He was standing beside the Lake/limnhn <3041> Gennesaret/gennhsaret <1082>, [Matt 14:34, Mark 6:53]
2 and he saw two boats standing by the lake/limnhn <3041>: the yet fishermen had gone out of them washing their nets

Matt 23:33 `Serpents! progeny/gennhmata <1081> of vipers! how ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV?

LittleLambofJesus said:

The Jews have no concept of a literal roasting hellfire that people go to. It appears to be a Christ-ian and Muslim only thing.

Luke is the only one in the Gospels that mentions the word "Lake", and coincidentally if one takes time to study the Divine Greek texts, one can see how this "lake gennesaret" resembles the greek word "gehenna". Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Luke 5:1 It became yet, in the of the throng to be nearing to Him to be hearing the word of the God, and He was standing beside the Lake/limnhn <3041> Gennesaret/gennhsaret <1082>, [Matt 14:34, Mark 6:53]
2 and he saw two boats standing by the lake/limnhn <3041>: the yet fishermen had gone out of them washing their nets

Matt 23:33 `Serpents! progeny/gennhmata <1081> of vipers! how ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV?

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Thank you for the explanation, and now that I've read it closer, I do remember noticing the name of that lake today when I was searching scripture for my post to Gary51. There could be a connection, but, I'll have to dig deeper to really form an opinion one way or the other.