We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

WarEagle · Dec 13, 2007

Giver said:
When you stand before Jesus on judgment day do you really believe the excuses you have been using, not to obey what Jesus told us about killing, will be accepted?

Can you at least bring yourself to acknowlege that Jesus committed an act of violence against people in John 2?

Giver · Dec 13, 2007

WarEagle said:
Can you at least bring yourself to acknowlege that Jesus committed an act of violence against people in John 2?

He at least must have threatened to do violence. Now Jesus was a Jew and at the time was still under the Old Law. The Old Law allowed for violence. Besides Just because Jesus did something does not mean we have the right to the same thing. He is God and as such is responsible for punishment and rewards.

Because he is God, our boss, if he says jump we just say how high. He once told me to quit trying to figure him out and just follow him. Believe me I would be scared to death to knowingly disobey God. So remember he told us: (Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.
(Matthew 5:43-44) You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

WarEagle · Dec 13, 2007

Giver said:
]He at least must have threatened to do violence.

[/COLOR]

No, He wasn't threatened.

Now Jesus was a Jew and at the time was still under the Old Law. The Old Law allowed for violence. Besides Just because Jesus did something does not mean we have the right to the same thing. He is God and as such is responsible for punishment and rewards.

Why do you think that Jesus commanded His followers to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with?

Why does the Bible tell us that God has given the agent of the government the authority to "wield the sword"?

Why does God give governments the authority to carry out capital punishment?

He once told me to quit trying to figure him out and just follow him.

There we go with the "I don't need scripture because God told me so" again.

So remember he told us: (Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

I agree. We shouldn't seek revenge when we're persecuted for the sake of the Gospel. But that doesn't preclude self-defense or capital punishment.

(Matthew 5:43-44) You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

See above.

Giver · Dec 13, 2007

WarEagle said:
[/font][/color]

No, He wasn't threatened.

Why do you think that Jesus commanded His followers to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with?
First of all Jesus didnt say buy two swords to protect yourselves with.

(Luke 22:36-38) But now if you have a purse, take it; if you have a haversack, do the same; if you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one, because I tell you these words of scripture have to be fulfilled in me; He let himself be taken for a criminal, Yes, what scripture says about me is even now reaching its fulfillment. Lord, they said there are two swords here now, He said to them, that is enough!

Here is what some bible scholars have said about that passage of scripture: The Apostles have taken the words of Jesus too literally and he closes the conversation abruptly. Also, The purse to buy, the sword to procure by force the necessities of life. All this is symbolic of a mission in a hostile world. These scholars wrote the Jerusalem Bible. Thats a Catholic Bible and Catholics believe much the way you do about the subject of self-defense.

Another question you should ask yourself is: would Jesus have said that two swords were enough if they were to use swords to defend all the disciples that were there?

Why does the Bible tell us that God has given the agent of the government the authority to "wield the sword"?

Why does God give governments the authority to carry out capital punishment?

There we go with the "I don't need scripture because God told me so" again.

I agree. We shouldn't seek revenge when we're persecuted for the sake of the Gospel. But that doesn't preclude self-defense or capital punishment.

I have answered your question many times in this thread. (Acts 4:19-20) You must judge whether in Gods eyes it is right to listen to you and not to God. We cannot promise to stop proclaiming what we have seen and heard.

If a government tells a Christian to do anything that goes against the command of God a Christian has to obey God not the government.

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

See above.

(Matthew 5:43-44) You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

WarEagle · Dec 13, 2007

Giver said:
(Matthew 5:43-44) You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

I agree that we shouldn't seek revenge on those who persecute us, but what does that have to do with defending oneself or capital punishment?

Let me ask you this:

Let's say that, for whatever reason, you come across a man who's about to kill your neighbor. You choose not to stop the man and he kills your neighbor.

Was this loving your neighbor?

Giver · Dec 13, 2007

WarEagle said:
I agree that we shouldn't seek revenge on those who persecute us, but what does that have to do with defending oneself or capital punishment?

Let me ask you this:

Let's say that, for whatever reason, you come across a man who's about to kill your neighbor. You choose not to stop the man and he kills your neighbor.

Was this loving your neighbor?

The first commandment is to love our God. You can only love God by living his Word.

Someone who will kill is of the world. The world has laws and people to enforce those laws. A Christian is not part of the world. It would be the world’s job to protect your neighbor. The person attacking your neighbor is of the world and breaking the law, so let the world enforce the law.

WarEagle · Dec 13, 2007

Giver said:
The first commandment is to love our God. You can only love God by living his Word.

Giver said:
Someone who will kill is of the world. The world has laws and people to enforce those laws. A Christian is not part of the world.

It would be the world’s job to protect your neighbor.

The person attacking your neighbor is of the world and breaking the law, so let the world enforce the law.

So then, you don't believe that Christians should be police officers, judges, attorneys, parole officers, etc?

I'm a Christian and I was a firefighter and paramedic for about ten years. Do you believe Christians should be firefighters?

Why do you think Jesus instructed His followers to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with?

Zecryphon · Dec 13, 2007

Giver said:
The first commandment is to love our God. You can only love God by living his Word.

Someone who will kill is of the world. The world has laws and people to enforce those laws. A Christian is not part of the world. It would be the world’s job to protect your neighbor. The person attacking your neighbor is of the world and breaking the law, so let the world enforce the law.

Giver I believe that part of your confusion about this topic comes from the fact that you either can't or won't distinguish between murder and killing. The other part of your problem comes from the fact that Scripture never commands us to not be a part of the world. God through His written word tells us not to be conformed by the world, He tells us not to love the world, but we are never told to not be in the world.

Jesus Himself commanded His disciples in Matthew 5:28-29 to go into the world teaching them all that He had taught them and bringing the good news of the gospel and baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Why would Jesus contradict Himself like that? Why would He tell His disciples to go into the world and then supposedly tell us to stay out of it? Perhaps Jesus has not contradicted Himself, but rather your understanding of scripture is not correct.

Giver · Dec 13, 2007

WarEagle said:
So then, you don't believe that Christians should be police officers, judges, attorneys, parole officers, etc?

I'm a Christian and I was a firefighter and paramedic for about ten years. Do you believe Christians should be firefighters?

Why do you think Jesus instructed His followers to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with?

Does a fire fighter need to kill or harm anyone?

WarEagle · Dec 13, 2007

Giver said:
Does a fire fighter need to kill or harm anyone?

No, but he is called upon to help his neighbor, which you said is not the job of the Christian, but the job of the world.

Now, back to my questions:

So then, you don't believe that Christians should be police officers, judges, attorneys, parole officers, etc?

I'm a Christian and I was a firefighter and paramedic for about ten years. Do you believe Christians should be firefighters?

Why do you think Jesus instructed His followers to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with?

A. believer · Dec 13, 2007

Giver said:
You keep saying you have been shown me that I am wrong, but never back up your statements with anything. All you or any of your WE have shown me is where you all believe I am wrong. The scriptures used have not ever said Christians were ever to use force against anyone.

Not explicitly, but implicitly. The Scriptures demonstrate the principle that force is sometimes necessary to restrain evil. It takes a modicum of critical thinking to put together the pieces. You expect us to accept your unsupportable assumption that God-ordained peace is only to be maintained by godless people which is contrary to Scripture and an affront to God.

Come on, maybe you could at least show me where any of the apostles, after they were baptized with the Holy Spirit, ever used a weapon in defense of anyone.

I already addressed the flawed assumption behind this idea in another post. Please try to follow the discussion. The New Testament is not the story of the governing of the city, but of the establishment of the church.

Giver · Dec 13, 2007

WarEagle said:
No, but he is called upon to help his neighbor, which you said is not the job of the Christian, but the job of the world.

Now, back to my questions:

So then, you don't believe that Christians should be police officers, judges, attorneys, parole officers, etc?

I'm a Christian and I was a firefighter and paramedic for about ten years. Do you believe Christians should be firefighters?

Why do you think Jesus instructed His followers to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with?

I answered you that question in post #144 why do you want me to do so again?

WarEagle · Dec 13, 2007

Giver said:
41552948]I answered you that question in post #144 why do you want me to do so again?

You need to learn how to format your posts so that we don't have to decipher them.

In post #144, you attributed your answer to me. Since I already know what I said, I didn't look at my own answer and, thus, could not see your answer.

Here is what some bible scholars have said about that passage of scripture: The Apostles have taken the words of Jesus too literally and he closes the conversation abruptly.

How the Apostles took the words of Jesus isn't the point. The scriptures record Jesus as telling them to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with.

TraderJack · Dec 13, 2007

Giver said:
Does a fire fighter need to kill or harm anyone?

In some cases, yes.

Suppose a firefighter answers a call at 2 AM when people are asleep in their houses, to a neighborhood where two houses are already burning. Then the firefighter, who happens to be armed with a legal concealed weapon, sees an arsonists setting fire to other houses that contain families that are asleep, and the arsonists is going from house to house setting them on fire.

If that firefighter did not draw his weapon and stop the arsonist by shooting him/her, the firefighter would be in sin, as we are commanded to defend the defenseless, and it would lead to the senseless deaths of many innocent people, including children.

Giver · Dec 13, 2007

WarEagle said:
You need to learn how to format your posts so that we don't have to decipher them.

In post #144, you attributed your answer to me. Since I already know what I said, I didn't look at my own answer and, thus, could not see your answer.

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How the Apostles took the words of Jesus isn't the point. The scriptures record Jesus as telling them to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with.

I answered all your questions, and you are going to believe what you want to believe. That is your right. My job was just to give a word. I am not supposed to convince any one.

Zecryphon · Dec 13, 2007

TraderJack said:
In some cases, yes.

Suppose a firefighter answers a call at 2 AM when people are asleep in their houses, to a neighborhood where two houses are already burning. Then the firefighter, who happens to be armed with a legal concealed weapon, sees an arsonists setting fire to other houses that contain families that are asleep, and the arsonists is going from house to house setting them on fire.

If that firefighter did not draw his weapon and stop the arsonist by shooting him/her, the firefighter would be in sin, as we are commanded to defend the defenseless, and it would lead to the senseless deaths of many innocent people, including children.

Shooting the arsonsists in this case is not the firefighter's only option. He could call for an extra truck to come and put out the newly started fire, he could dispatch a couple guys to go put it out before it gets to the people inside. He has other options than what you've mentioned. Plus, just where is his legal firearm concealed that it easy to, one get to and two operate while wearing all his protective clothing that is necessary for putting out the fire he is currently dealing with?

Also, the firefighter could be arrested for his actions as well as he would be discharging a firearm in a residential neighborhood. In my state of Arizona that's a no-no. He could put more lives in danger because under your scneario, I'm going to guess that he doesn't really have a great view of his target, and the likelihood of him even hitting his intended taret is greatly diminished due to it being 2 AM, so it's dark outside, there's a fire next to him blazing out of control, there's sirens and all sorts of commotion around him and he's really pretty far away from the intended targets. Also, what if he missed his targets? He's now discharged a bullet, most likely a hollow-point bullet that can hit somebody else it was not intended for. Now he's looking at a manslaughter charge too.

Most encounters that happen with guns happen at a range of 3-4 yards and last 3-4 seconds. Your scenario is not really credible. Also, you add in the fact that the fireman would now being neglecting his duty of putting out fires to go be a policeman, something that is not his job to do. So I disagree with your statement that says in some cases a firefighter can harm another person in the line of duty, given what you've provided as support for that statement. What you've described would apply to a policeman's line of duty, not a fireman's.

GenemZ · Dec 13, 2007

Giver said:
(Matthew 5:43-44) You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

The key word is "persecute." That has got to do with personal enemies that the disciples will have to face.

A criminal is not a personal enemy. Its everyone's enemy. A nation attacking another is not a personal enemy. Its everyone's enemy.

If I knew who you were, I would walk up to you every day and punch you in the nose as hard as I can. Just because I am a friend (trying to knock some sense into you).

In Christ, GeneZ

.

GenemZ · Dec 13, 2007

Giver said:
I answered all your questions, and you are going to believe what you want to believe. That is your right. My job was just to give a word. I am not supposed to convince any one.

You are giving license to hurting others.

Do you keep your doors unlocked? Do you leave your keys in your car? Do you leave all your money on the kitchen table?

I think you must. After all..... Jesus wants you not to hurt anyone. It hurts them sometimes when they break in to steal. Might bruise himself in breaking and entry. Should keep your doors unlocked. Leave your car unlocked with the keys in it. It hurts sometimes when they have to break in.

And, I think you should always have cookies and milk around for the rapist. Jesus never said its wrong to make someone feel good.

If you think about it, you would do a great deal of HURTING of others if they believed you. I find that ironic.

TraderJack · Dec 13, 2007

Zecryphon said:
Shooting the arsonsists in this case is not the firefighter's only option. He could call for an extra truck to come and put out the newly started fire, he could dispatch a couple guys to go put it out before it gets to the people inside..

Which wastes time and allows for the arsonist to continue setting more houses on fire jeopardizing the lives of more people.

GenemZ · Dec 13, 2007

Giver said:
I am not the paid security guards judge. A person who caries a gun for hire is of the world, and God will judge the World.

(John 12:48) He who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already: the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.

Remember you own words, sir. They will be used against you.

And, you have not the love from God. If you were filled with the Spirit you would not be listening to a false spirit who found a way for you to glory in being a coward.

1 Corinthians 13:6-7 (New International Version)
"Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

Love always protects! You would simply stand by and let your wife be raped. She is being HURT by the rapist, and you are allowing for her HURT in doing so.

You do not protect anything but your ego which refuses and denies to admit you are a coward. God's grace would strengthen you to protect, but you hate God in what you do.

1 John 4:1 (New International Version)
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

That's all you are, sir.

You can end up HURTING others if you hook up with the stupid. Jim Jones found that sort of person to follow him. They are out there. The false christ that came to you , knows that. You are a sucker for the suckers this false christ wants you to influence.

Luke 11:21 (New International Version)
"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe."

Its you that will HURT others if they believed you. In the name of not HURTING the criminal, you will only add to the HURT of the victim.

Jim Jones found his flock....... The false christ that led him knew some people would listen. And, he spoke in tongues, too. Like you do.

Have a nice Day, GeneZ

We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

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