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inquestion89

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1 - God creates the universe and everything that is contained in it.
2 - God is perfectly good.
3 - If God made the universe and everything along with it wouldn't he of created Evil as well?
4 - If God in fact created Evil, how can he be perfectly good?

Originally posted in the ask a chaplain, but I've yet to receive a response...
 

BereanTodd

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No, God created creatures with perfect free will. In their creation that is perfectly good, but in order to have free will, one must have a choice, so in the perfect and good creation, God created the potential for evil. But it is impossible to create a free-will without that potential.

I would also point out that, in my understanding as well as that of many other Christians, evil is not a "thing" that would have to be created. Let me put it this way - show me what darkness or what cold are. You can't do it, because in truth, darkness and cold do not exist. Light and heat do. Darkness and cold are merely expressions which we use to identify a lack of light and heat.

Likewise "evil" as such does not exist, but rather a lack of goodness does. But again, the potential for that "lack of goodness" is a nescasary component of free-will.
 
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revanneosl

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Blame for evil perpetrated by creatures with free will can, in a sense, be assigned to the creatures rather than the creator. But of course you've still got to hand God the blame for having decided to create a world with free creatures in it in the first place.

But natural evil: earthquakes, hurricaines, cancer cells, smallpox viruses... those are God's alone. They are all part of a creation that he insisted on caling "good" at the end of every working day.

There is only one book of theodicy (explanation of the problem of evil) that I've ever read that is intellectually honest enough to neither try to explain the problem away as a blessing in disguise, nor to fudge the scriptural revelation by making it sound as if God can't do anything about the mess the world is in.

The book's called The Third Peacock by Robert F. Capon, and it is a work of genius. It's out of print as a stand-alone book these days, but it can be purchased as part of an omnibus volume called The Romance Of The Word.

$30 at Amazon. ISBN 0802840841 Amazing book. Gave me back both my orotodox theology and my holy whimsy at the end of a long, grim theological education.

If you don't have $30, then you can find out the answer to your question the hard way: read the book of Job. But I'll promise you right now, Capon or Bible, you're not going to like the answer much.

Grace & Peace,
Anne
 
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flaja

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Blame for evil perpetrated by creatures with free will can, in a sense, be assigned to the creatures rather than the creator. But of course you've still got to hand God the blame for having decided to create a world with free creatures in it in the first place.

If God had created us with no free will and we had no choice but obey Him, wouldn't this have made God a tyrant and thus evil Himself?

But natural evil: earthquakes, hurricaines, cancer cells, smallpox viruses... those are God's alone. They are all part of a creation that he insisted on caling "good" at the end of every working day.

Not necessarily. The punishment for sin fell first on Satan, the Serpent; next on man and thirdly on the earth, i.e., creation. Sin not only separated man from God but also God from creation in general. Except when God chooses to perform a miracle or give us Providence or punish us for a specific evil act on our part, the world belongs to Satan and he is the one behind nature.

The book's called The Third Peacock by Robert F. Capon,

A capon writing about a peacock? Oh brother.
 
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inquestion89

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If God had created us with no free will and we had no choice but obey Him, wouldn't this have made God a tyrant and thus evil Himself?

I agree, would God not of seen our future actions. He is to said to have a plan for us, was his plan for humans to create evil?
 
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inquestion89

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No, God created creatures with perfect free will. In their creation that is perfectly good, but in order to have free will, one must have a choice, so in the perfect and good creation, God created the potential for evil. But it is impossible to create a free-will without that potential.

So a man who does good, doesn't do it for the sake of doing good, but for the sake of not falling into evil?
How do we have free will if we will ending performing His plan. If in the end we create wars and cause turmoil, would this not be his plan?

I would also point out that, in my understanding as well as that of many other Christians, evil is not a "thing" that would have to be created. Let me put it this way - show me what darkness or what cold are. You can't do it, because in truth, darkness and cold do not exist. Light and heat do. Darkness and cold are merely expressions which we use to identify a lack of light and heat.

Just because there is a lack of something, doesn't mean that when its not there, its nothing. Evil is still a thing, the presence of a chaotic force that is something that causes suffering, injury, or destruction.
A man can have no good in him, but not be evil.

Likewise "evil" as such does not exist, but rather a lack of goodness does. But again, the potential for that "lack of goodness" is a nescasary component of free-will.

Read above.


I contest that God really is a tyrant commanding us to do his will, like a child playing with G.I. Joes. I say Satan defied God and His opinion of what is right. Satan promoted our free will, to let us go about and do what we desire. Thus creating the presence of evil from our free-will, which is why he is considered evil. It is worth noting that in the bible, God kills much more than Satan does, not a few but a few hundred thousand.

//EDIT: I found the killings between God and Satan, much more startling then I remembered. God: 2,038,344 Satan: 10
 
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Alenci

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//EDIT: I found the killings between God and Satan, much more startling then I remembered. God: 2,038,344 Satan: 10

Surprisingly, people are a wicked lot and all of us deserve death, anyway. It is only in God's mercy that he spares us at all.

Yes, a happy world view... it's a happy world, after all, isn't it?

I fear that I might come off as a cynic, but I'm simply stating what I believe to be fact.

To avoid trivializing the question, however, I'll note that I myself have always struggled with this very question. How is an omniscient God good when he chose to create beings with the potential for evil, knowing they would fall and need to be redeemed?
 
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marvmax

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Also, I've gotta ask: in what way does the topic of theodicy belong in the Christian History Forum?
I was wondering that myself. Perhaps because it is topic that has historically troubled Christians. Or every generation of Christians has dealt with this problem.

I still think it ought 'a be moved.
 
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hogndog

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"DON'T LEAVE IT ON THE DESK"

There was a certain Professor of Religion named Dr. Christianson, a studious
man who taught at a small college in the western United States. Dr.
Christianson taught the required survey course in Christianity at this
particular institution. Every student was required to take this course his
freshman year, regardless of his or her major.

Although Dr. Christianson tried hard to communicate the essence of the gospel
in his class, he found that most of his students looked upon the course as
nothing but required drudgery. Despite his best efforts, most students
refused to take Christianity seriously.

This year, Dr. Christianson had a special student named Steve. Steve was only
a freshman, but was studying with the intent of going onto seminary for the
ministry. Steve was popular, he was well liked, and he was an imposing
physical specimen. He was now the starting center on the school football
team, and was the best student in the professor's class.

One day, Dr. Christianson asked Steve to stay after class so he could talk
with him.

"How many push-ups can you do?"

Steve said, "I do about 200 every night."

"200? That's pretty good, Steve," Dr. Christianson said. "Do you think you
could do 300?"

Steve replied, "I don't know.... I've never done 300 at a time."

"Do you think you could?" again asked Dr. Christianson.

"Well, I can try," said Steve.

"Can you do 300 in sets of 10? I have a class project in mind and I need you
to do about 300 push-ups in sets of ten for this to work. Can you do it? I
need you to tell me you can do it," said the professor.

Steve said, "Well... I think I can...yeah, I can do it."

Dr. Christianson said, "Good! I need you to do this on Friday. Let me explain
what I have in mind."

Friday came and Steve got to class early and sat in the front of the room.
When class started, the professor pulled out a big box of donuts. No, these
weren't the normal kinds of donuts, they were the extra fancy BIG kind, with
cream centers and frosting swirls. Everyone was pretty excited it was Friday,
the last class of the day, and they were going to get an early start on the
weekend with a party in Dr. Christianson's class.

Dr. Christianson went to the first girl in the first row and asked, "Cynthia,
do you want to have one of these donuts?"

Cynthia said, "Yes."

Dr. Christianson then turned to Steve and asked, "Steve, would you do ten
push-ups so that Cynthia can have a donut?"

"Sure!" Steve jumped down from his desk to do a quick ten. Then Steve again
sat in his desk. Dr. Christianson put a donut on Cynthia's desk.

Dr. Christianson then went to Joe, the next person, and asked, "Joe, do you
want a donut?"

Joe said, "Yes." Dr. Christianson asked, "Steve would you do ten push-ups so
Joe can have a donut?"

Steve did ten push-ups, Joe got a donut. And so it went, down the first
aisle, Steve did ten push-ups for every person before they got their donut.

Walking down the second aisle, Dr. Christianson came to Scott. Scott was on
the basketball team, and in as good condition as Steve. He was very popular
and never lacking for female companionship.

When the professor asked, "Scott do you want a donut?"

Scott's reply was, "Well, can I do my own push-ups?"

Dr. Christianson said, "No, Steve has to do them."

Then Scott said, "Well, I don't want one then."

Dr. Christianson shrugged and then turned to Steve and asked, "Steve, would
you do ten push-ups so Scott can have a donut he doesn't want?"

With perfect obedience Steve started to do ten push-ups.

Scott said, "HEY! I said I didn't want one!"

Dr. Christianson said, "Look!, this is my classroom, my class, my desks, and
these are my donuts. Just leave it on the desk if you don't want it." And he
put a donut on Scott's desk.

Now by this time, Steve had begun to slow down a little. He just stayed on
the floor between sets because it took too much effort to be getting up and
down. You could start to see a little perspiration coming out around his
brow.

Dr. Christianson started down the third row. Now the students were beginning
to get a little angry. Dr. Christianson asked Jenny, "Jenny, do you want a
donut?"

Sternly, Jenny said, "No."

Then Dr. Christianson asked Steve, "Steve, would you do ten more push-ups so
Jenny can have a donut that she doesn't want?"

Steve did ten....Jenny got a donut.

By now, a growing sense of uneasiness filled the room. The students were
beginning to say, "No!" and there were all these uneaten donuts on the desks.

Steve also had to really put forth a lot of extra effort to get these
push-ups done for each donut. There began to be a small pool of sweat on the
floor beneath his face, his arms and brow were beginning to get red because
of the physical effort involved.

Dr. Christianson asked Robert, who was the most vocal unbeliever in the
class, to watch Steve do each push up to make sure he did the full ten
push-ups in a set because he couldn't bear to watch all of Steve's work for
all of those uneaten donuts. He sent Robert over to where Steve was so Robert
could count the set and watch Steve closely.

Dr. Christianson started down the fourth row. During his class, however, some
students from other classes had wandered in and sat down on the steps along
the radiators that ran down the sides of the room. When the professor
realized this, he did a quick count and saw that now there were 34 students
in the room. He started to worry if Steve would be able to make it.

Dr. Christianson went on to the next person and the next and the next. Near
the end of that row, Steve was really having a rough time. He was taking a
lot more time to complete each set.

Steve asked Dr. Christianson, "Do I have to make my nose touch on each one?"

Dr. Christianson thought for a moment, "Well, they're your push-ups. You are
in charge now. You can do them any way that you want." And Dr. Christianson
went on.

A few moments later, Jason, a recent transfer student, came to the room and
was about to come in when all the students yelled in one voice, "NO! Don't
come in! Stay out!"

Jason didn't know what was going on. Steve picked up his head and said, "No,
let him come."

Professor Christianson said, "You realize that if Jason comes in you will
have to do ten push-ups for him?"

Steve said, "Yes, let him come in. Give him a donut."

Dr. Christianson said, "Okay, Steve, I'll let you get Jason's out of the way
right now. Jason, do you want a donut?"

Jason, new to the room, hardly knew what was going on. "Yes," he said, "give
me a donut."

"Steve, will you do ten push-ups so that Jason can have a donut?"

Steve did ten push-ups very slowly and with great effort. Jason, bewildered,
was handed a donut and sat down.

Dr Christianson finished the fourth row, and then started on those visitors
seated by the heaters. Steve's arms were now shaking with each push-up in a
struggle to lift himself against the force of gravity. By this time sweat was
profusely dropping off of his face, there was no sound except his heavy
breathing; there was not a dry eye in the room.

The very last two students in the room were two young women, both
cheerleaders, and very popular. Dr. Christianson went to Linda, the second to
last, and asked, "Linda, do you want a doughnut?"

Linda said, very sadly, "No, thank you."

Professor Christianson quietly asked, "Steve, would you do ten push-ups so
that Linda can have a donut she doesn't want?"

Grunting from the effort, Steve did ten very slow push-ups for Linda.

Then Dr. Christianson turned to the last girl, Susan. "Susan, do you want a
donut?"

Susan, with tears flowing down her face, began to cry. "Dr. Christianson, why
can't I help him?"

Dr Christianson, with tears of his own, said, "No, Steve has to do it alone;
I have given him this task and he is in charge of seeing that everyone has an
opportunity for a donut whether they want it or not. When I decided to have a
party this last day of class, I looked at my grade book.
Steve here is the only student with a perfect grade. Everyone else has failed
a test, skipped class, or offered me inferior work. Steve told me that in
football practice, when a player messes up he must do push-ups. I told Steve
that none of you could come to my party unless he paid the price by doing
your push ups. He and I made a deal for your sakes."

"Steve, would you do ten push-ups so Susan can have a donut?"

As Steve very slowly finished his last push-up, with the understanding that
he had accomplished all that was required of him, having done 350 push-ups,
his arms buckled beneath him and he fell to the floor.

Dr. Christianson turned to the room and said, "And so it was, that our
Savior, Jesus Christ, on the cross, plead to the Father, 'Into thy hands I
commend my spirit.' With the understanding that He had done everything that
was required of Him, He yielded up His life. And like some of those in this
room, many of us leave the gift on the desk, uneaten."

Two students helped Steve up off the floor and to a seat, physically
exhausted, but wearing a thin smile.

"Well done, good and faithful servant," said the professor, adding, "Not all
sermons are preached in words."

Turning to his class, the professor said, "My wish is that you might
understand and fully comprehend all the riches of grace and mercy that have
been given to you through the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
He spared not only His Begotten Son, but gave Him up for us all, for the
whole Church, now and forever. Whether or not we choose to accept His gift to
us, the price has been paid."

"Wouldn't you be foolish and ungrateful to leave it lying on the desk?"

Gospel love,
Lee
 
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inquestion89

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I fear that I might come off as a cynic, but I'm simply stating what I believe to be fact.

Since when is what we believe fact. That is what Christian folk have wrong, belief in something without provable evidence favoring it is called an opinion. No matter how many people believe in something, that doesn't make that thing fact. A fact is a tangible thing that can be proven to be true.

To avoid trivializing the question, however, I'll note that I myself have always struggled with this very question. How is an omniscient God good when he chose to create beings with the potential for evil, knowing they would fall and need to be redeemed?

To be quite blunt, it is because the bible is a fictional book full of contradicting and impossible events that have been indoctrinated and rammed into so many peoples minds for so long that it has evolved into something that people will believe in even with strong opposing evidence with none to reinforce the bible or its stories.
 
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inquestion89

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"DON'T LEAVE IT ON THE DESK"

There was a certain Professor of Religion named Dr. Christianson, a studious
man who taught at a small college in the western United States. Dr.
Christianson taught the required survey course in Christianity at this
particular institution. Every student was required to take this course his
freshman year, regardless of his or her major.

==================================================================

Turning to his class, the professor said, "My wish is that you might
understand and fully comprehend all the riches of grace and mercy that have
been given to you through the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
He spared not only His Begotten Son, but gave Him up for us all, for the
whole Church, now and forever. Whether or not we choose to accept His gift to
us, the price has been paid."

"Wouldn't you be foolish and ungrateful to leave it lying on the desk?"

Gospel love,
Lee


Oh I get it! He tried to reenact the story of Jesus! Just because someone can reenact the story doesn't make it true. In one forum I loosely rewrote the story of the bible, except that God is a magical toaster. That doesn't make any of these stories, yes stories, true.
 
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hogndog

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I'm confused, why do you think that Jesus is a toaster?

Oh I get it! He tried to reenact the story of Jesus! Just because someone can reenact the story doesn't make it true. In one forum I loosely rewrote the story of the bible, except that God is a magical toaster. That doesn't make any of these stories, yes stories, true.

In His Service,
Lee
 
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