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ksen

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It is a short read Check it out..

I just reread it.

Where do I mail my check to my High Priest? There's no mention there of giving it to my local pastor.

I think maybe the reason they avoid using it it is talking about who collected the tithe back in the day. It could maybe bring up questions the modern Pastors don't want to have to answer.

Who collected the tithe back in the day?

Paul only asked people to give in order to help out the Jerusalem church.
 
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Strong in Him

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Read Malchi 3 : 8 thru 12 if you want to know what God almighty says about it.

Yes, but this is Old Testament. The Jews were given the law by Moses - well, God through Moses. That law included tithing, and if you read Deuteronomy 14:22-29 - for example - you will see instructions about how these tithes were to be made.

1. A person had to set aside a tenth of all that their fields produced each year.
2. They could eat their tithe of grain, new wine and oil. They were not to do so in their own home towns, but had to go to a place that the Lord chose for them.
3. If this place was too far away, they could exchange this tithe for silver, go to the designated place, buy what they wanted when they were there - cattle or whatever and, together with their family, eat it there in the presence of God with much rejoicing.
4 They were not to neglect the Levites who had no allotments or inheritance of their own.
5. Every 3 years all the tithes were to be stored in their own towns so that Levites, orphans, widows etc could eat and be satisfied.

So the tithe was for eating, and feeding those in need.

The verse in Malachi just says that the people were not offering all their tithes, which were commanded by law, to the Lord. Maybe they were just holding back - only giving 7% or whatever; maybe they were using false weights and measures to measure out a tenth. This was also illegal, and the Lord condemned people for doing this, (Deut 25:13-16; Proverbs 11:1; 16:11; Hosea 12:7)
A similar thing happened in the NT, in Acts 5. Ananais and Saphira were not condemned for not giving all their money to God, they were condemned because they lied to the apostles and claimed that they were giving more to God's work than they actually were.

Whatever the case, it's clear from the OT what the tithe was, and if a person claims that they tithe according to Scripture, this is what they should be doing.

Deciding to give 10% of your wages to your local church to support its work and ministry is good - don't get me wrong. But it is not a practice laid down in Scripture.
 
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Barrenlimb

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4 types of tithing according to old testament
1. Levitical tithe
--2 parts Again, the whole first tithe was given to the Levites who were only servants to the priests (Numb. 18:21-24; Neh. 10:37). The Levites, in turn, gave one tenth of the whole tithe to the priests (Numb. 18:25-28; Neh. 10:38).
2. Feast tithe
According to Deuteronomy 12 and 14, the second religious tithe, called the "feast tithe," was eaten by worshipers in the streets of Jerusalem during the three yearly festivals (Deut. 12:1-19; 14:22-26).
3. poor tithe
And, according to Deuteronomy 14 and 26, a third tithe, called the "poor tithe," was kept in the homes every third year to feed the poor (Deut. 14:28, 29; 26:12, 13).

4. Political Tithe
Also, according to First Samuel 8:14-17, the ruler collected the first and best ten per cent for political use.

During Jesus’ time Rome collected the first ten per cent (10%) of most food and twenty per cent (20%) of fruit crops as its spoils of war


So, for those that support the tithe, do you give all 4 tithes and your first fruits?
 
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StevenL

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Jesus fulfilled the law of tithing and the reality that the shadow of tithing represented. Completely fulfilled it.

Think of it. (with the spiritual mind)

He said......" I am the bread (food) that came down from heaven. If you don't eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life."

He said He was the True Manna (manna means - What-is-it?) Most still don't know what IT is! Even among what is called "church."

He said....."I have food to eat that you don't know anything about... My Food is to do the will of my Father."

WOW! Ponder that for a few hundred years.

But most are still trying to nibble on the TYPE or SHADOW and have yet to taste the FULFILLMENT or the REALITY....because it is spirit and not flesh. The natural mind cannot comprehend it. It's not even supposed to.

The carnal Jews failed to see it. The carnal "church" has failed to see it in the same way.
 
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I have heard many voices over the years that have tried to build a bridge from the OT to the NT. One method has been to try to import it as a law. If you do this then why did the Rules change? Under the Old Covenant the common working class people did not tithe. It was only the Priests, farmers, and those who owned flocks and herds that tithed. In fact it was every tenth animal under the rod or the last tenth not the first.

Joseph the carpenter was not required to tithe. The Jews only paid tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem. The synagogues did not collect tithes and still do not today as far as I know. And there is much more to be said and none of it has been transferred to our time from the Old Covenant. The law itself had more mercy on the poor than some of our Churches do today because under the Law only the people of wealth were required to pay tithes - remember this was an agriculturally based economy.

Some have made a strained effort to import the tithing law based on principle. They cite the Melchizedec discourse (only happened once) and say it is a principle for all time because it preceded the Law of Moses, but so did animal sacrifice and circumcision. Are all three principles for all time?

The book of Acts records that the council of Jerusalem was convened in order to determine what parts of the law must be kept by the new gentile believers under the New Covenant. Tithing was not one of the items listed. As a matter of fact tithing was not brought into the Church until the forth Century. Where have our present day "Rules" of tithing come from - rules that seem to be entirely biased in favor of those in leadership who are demanding compliance? The system is basically one of taxation without representation. The Church - like the government - is not recognized as being accountable for the easy money they take in using spiritual coercion in many cases.

I do understand that it is the Christians privilege to underwrite the Gospel, but where does the authority come from to set the number of ten percent (or more) for the poor and needy? And in a lot of cases it's not just ten percent. Some have demanded ten percent of your gross income. What is that of your net spendable income? I heard offerings once defined from the pulpit as three percent. What is the total of the two - fifteen to eighteen percent of your net income?

As I said, the doctrine of tithing did not appear in the Church until the forth Century. The early Church had a practice of “firstfruits” which meant that they would set aside some money as they determined for use in the Lord’s work. Justin Martyr left us a description of a second century church meeting where the practice of giving was mentioned…

Quote – Halleys Bible Commentary
… The wealthy and the willing then give contributions according to their freewill; and this collection is deposited with the president, who therewith supplies orphans, widows, prisoners, strangers, and all who are in want.
Close quote:

I think God wanted his ancient covenant people to tithe in order for them to put him first. I think giving still relates to this. It’s not the law anymore, but I don’t think Christians can love without sharing of their substance. Anyway to those who tithe because they are taught to, or who believe it is for today will by no means lose their blessing because God always looks at our motives for what we do - not necessarily our “doctrinal correctness.”

Tithing (especially on their pre-tax income) gives people a very high goal to achieve; and sometimes we have to do things in the kingdom that we do not necessarily agree with just for the sake of unity. I wouldn’t be at all combative with this doctrine – I just want to make sure that those green paper tokens, which represent my time, sweat, and energy, go toward something, which expands and expresses the love and generosity of the kingdom.

If the Christian’s money is being legalistically commandeered and then funneled into capricious projects, vain personal agendas, and ministry monuments - whose purposes does this serve anyway? I'm not going to allow institutional religion to demand tithes in order to persue these goals. I've had enough of this in my lifetime. The abuse and misuse of money is one of the reasons that many people are moving away from oppressive and elietist organized religion, which has become more of a business in our day. Many are moving to home Churches and cell groups - just like in the first and second centuries.

God said he was going to write his law in our hearts. Our giving should be based on need, responsibility, accountability, and outrageous generosity.
 
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I think God wanted his ancient covenant people to tithe in order for them to put him first. I think giving still relates to this. It’s not the law anymore, but I don’t think Christians can love without sharing of their substance. Anyway to those who tithe because they are taught to, or who believe it is for today will by no means lose their blessing because God always looks at our motives for what we do - not necessarily our “doctrinal correctness.”

Exactly, it's all about putting God first. And realizing that all we have belongs to him. Whatever God has purposed in our hearts to give, we should give cheerfully. If it's a strain and burden, then it's not worth anything to the Lord.

I do wonder though... for those who are so against the concept of tithing, have you searched your hearts as to why you feel this way? As we all know, Jesus talked about money a lot, because he knows it can become at the least a stumbling block and at worst a sin in our lives.


If the Christian’s money is being legalistically commandeered and then funneled into capricious projects, vain personal agendas, and ministry monuments - whose purposes does this serve anyway? I'm not going to allow institutional religion to demand tithes in order to persue these goals. I've had enough of this in my lifetime. The abuse and misuse of money is one of the reasons that many people are moving away from oppressive and elietist organized religion, which has become more of a business in our day. Many are moving to home Churches and cell groups - just like in the first and second centuries.

Agreed... but we can also give money (tithes) to a favorite Christian charity. It doesn't all have to go to the institutional church.

God said he was going to write his law in our hearts. Our giving should be based on need, responsibility, accountability, and outrageous generosity.

Agreed... the statistics show that only about 2-3% of Christians actually tithe. I wonder if we took a survey, how many of them would say they do it cheerfully, or because it's a law.
 
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StevenL

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I do wonder though... for those who are so against the concept of tithing, have you searched your hearts as to why you feel this way?


I'm so against the concept of "tithing" because I've searched the Scriptures diligently and have understood the warnings from the apostles concerning bringing New Covenant believers back under bondage to the types and shadows of the law. It's an evil practice.

No tithing command or even suggestion exists for the New Covenant Body of Christ. Inventing such a law, rule, "suggestion", or whatever one wants to call it and using it to extract money from the people of God for ANY PURPOSE WHATSOEVER is an ADDITION TO THE WORD OF GOD. I'm pretty sure we've been warned about that as well.
 
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ksen

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I do wonder though... for those who are so against the concept of tithing, have you searched your hearts as to why you feel this way?

Have you searched the Scriptures to see why you feel the way you do?

I still haven't been shown NT evidence that the tithe is for Christians.

Someone tried Hebrews 7 but that really doesn't say Christians should be tithing.

If you think Christians are commanded to tithe please point out which tithe we are supposed to be paying. It's been pointed out above that there were at least three different kinds of tithe under the law.

Should we be doing all three?

Do we get to pick and choose which one we'll follow?

Jesus commended the widow for giving 100% to the temple. Are you suggesting He meant that to be the standard?

As we all know, Jesus talked about money a lot, because he knows it can become at the least a stumbling block and at worst a sin in our lives.

Mm-hmm, I agree.
 
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Barrenlimb

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I put this in the other thread, but not everyone will see it there, so... here is some history from shortly after Christ was resurrected

Irenaeus (written 180 A.D., ANF 1:484-485)
The class of offerings in general has not been set aside. For there were both offerings there [among the Jews] and there are offerings here [among the Christians]. Sacrifices there were among the [Israelite] people; sacrifices there are, too, in the church. Only the outward form has been changed. For the offering is now made, not by slaves, but by free men... [The Jews] had indeed the tithes of their goods consecrated to Him. In contrast, those who have received liberty set aside all their possessions for the Lord's purposes, bestowing joyfully and freely not the less valuable portions of their property, since they have the hope of better things.

Tertullian (written 197 A.D., ANF 3:46)
On the monthly day, if he likes, each puts in a small donation -- but only if it is his pleasure and only if he is able. For there is no compulsion; all is voluntary.



Justin Martyr (written 160 A.D., ANF 1:185-186)
The wealthy among us help the needy... As for the persons who are prosperous and are willing, they give what each thinks fit.
 
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Exactly, it's all about putting God first. And realizing that all we have belongs to him. Whatever God has purposed in our hearts to give, we should give cheerfully. If it's a strain and burden, then it's not worth anything to the Lord.
I do wonder though... for those who are so against the concept of tithing, have you searched your hearts as to why you feel this way? As we all know, Jesus talked about money a lot, because he knows it can become at the least a stumbling block and at worst a sin in our lives.

I started looking at the doctrine of tithing after my mother admitted to me one day about feeling guilty for not tithing most of her life. She raised eight children, had no job for the first seventeen years of her marriage, lived in poverty, and had to rely on an abusive, battering husband for scantly enough money to run the household. She was endlessly in a state of self-denial for her own needs. The Church should have been helping her - not preaching Tithing to make her feel guilty - she had great problems of her own.

... but we can also give money (tithes) to a favorite Christian charity. It doesn't all have to go to the institutional church.

Sure - I did. I sent money to T. L. Osborn - until he decided he needed an antique car museum. I sent money to Oral Roberts - until he started building his monuments. I sent money to Rex Humbard - until he decided he needed a prayer tower. Would a good steward allow for such capriciousness? This is the greatest temptation of those in ministry - the abuse of money and the sheep. It's amazing - sheep will just stand there and let their throats be slashed. Look at the success of the "Seed Faith" doctrine which was started by Osborn and then Roberts years ago, which is basically "Send me money and God will prosper you." It continue's on Hinn, Murdoch, Tilton, and all the prosperity preachers.

http://www.bennyhinn.org/splashpage.cfm?CFID=15881516&CFTOKEN=69965814
 
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Barrenlimb

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In all fairness, throughout history man has always wanted to build elaborate expensive lavish buildings/monuments, ect... to pay homage to God. (solomons temple, cathedrals, ect..) Lots of these buildings were state sponsered buildings (tax money)

I never understood why man thought God cared about the things that are hear today and gone tomorrow....I agree with your point, a church should never make men slaves. If the pastor drives a hummer to church while some people have to walk because they dont have a car than there is probably a fundamental problem with this.
 
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Have you searched the Scriptures to see why you feel the way you do?

I still haven't been shown NT evidence that the tithe is for Christians.

Someone tried Hebrews 7 but that really doesn't say Christians should be tithing.

If you think Christians are commanded to tithe please point out which tithe we are supposed to be paying. It's been pointed out above that there were at least three different kinds of tithe under the law.

Should we be doing all three?

Do we get to pick and choose which one we'll follow?

Jesus commended the widow for giving 100% to the temple. Are you suggesting He meant that to be the standard?



Mm-hmm, I agree.


I have been a Christian for only 6 years, which is not that long probably compared to many of you. I'm still learning and I struggle with the whole tithing thing - whether it's a law for NT believers or not. I was simply asking the question because I think it's important to make sure our motives are pure and we aren't just trying to get out of giving money for God's purposes.

The more I'm learning, I'm beginning to think that tithing is not scriptural for the new covenant. But if someone is convicted that they should tithe, isn't that between them and God? I agree they should not impose their convictions on others, but I'm not sure they are wrong if it's how they believe God wants them to give.

Doesn't it say in the NT that if someone is feeling convicted about not eating certain foods, that we aren't to correct them? Sorry if this isn't making much sense. I'm a bit over tired. :yawn:
 
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New_Wineskin

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A question for the nontithers who go to a brick and mortar church with paid spiritual leaders: where does the money come from that supports your church? Pennies from Heaven? Tithing isn't a matter of legalism, it's simple economics.

Your whole post was *about* legalism . And , those things have nothing to do with the tithing commands .

Those who decided to have a brick and mortar building are the ones who should have made sure that it was fully funded and maintained . Their doing a half-[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] job to make the decision to build it and leave it to others to pay for it is irresponsible and selfish .

Those who wanted paid leaders are to pay for them . Again , they made the decision to have them . It is legalistic to make a decision and then leave it for others to take care of it . The leaders made the decision to not have another source of income . Telling people that their salvation rests on other christians paying for *them* being a christian is a ridiculous notion . Hey ... I want to be a pastor - you pay me for being a better christian than you .

Those economics deal with poor planning and doing things *not* because they are needed but because people don't want to think and do things because others have been doing them for ages . Turning one's brain off is not good economics . Making decisions based on forcing others to do something in the future is bad economics . If you want people to pay for these things , make sure that they know it is expected of them and keep a tally . Don't lie to them and tell them it is a biblical command .


How about an entrance fee ?
 
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New_Wineskin

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I just think it's sad that so many Christians don't want to give back to their church.

I know that it is sad that these clubs have been so financially irresponsible that they resort to twisting the Scriptures to make it appear that people will be damned if they don't keep the club financially irresponsible .

Tithing isn't about giving to a club where it uses money to keep itself going . Giving to maintain a building is not giving to "God" - He isn't a building .
 
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I would like to talk about tithing. I know it's a popular practice these days, but seriously, is it truly a Christian act? If you read what the Bible actually describes as tithing you will see that it doesn't necessarily describe what's going on in the Christian Church these days. Tithing was really an early form of taxation. Tribes gave 10% to the tribal leaders, and in return, the tribal leaders gave 10% to the synagogue. That's not really far off from what's going on in America today. The government doesn't give 10% to the Church, but it does give the Church tax exempt status.
My question is this; how does giving 10% directly to the Church equate to keeping Jewish law? I , for one, am not Jewish. Being a devout Christian does not require me to be. My Faith is not shaken by men, so I do not feel any remorse about questioning that which does not fit what the Bible teaches. Good works alone will not save you, popular or not. What we give in the form of money is not a measure of one's Faith. Jesus cautioned against this line of thinking.
Well you are right that good works *alone* does not save anyone. But dont let that belittle good works because they are in fact very important. Jesus teaches that if you love him it will be shown through your deeds. If you love him and he lives in your heart that your life will produce fruit that brings God glory. Jesus also says in Matthew 16:27 that he will come and judge people according to thier deeds. Your deeds and fruit that give God glory proves your love. That is what Jesus teaches. You can also read about it in John chapters 13-17. There is a lot of information in there regarding that.

As for tithing, I dont personally believe that giving 10% to a church is required. But Jesus taught that we should spend our earthly resourses to foster friendships. It is friendships that will build trust and give us the opportunity to bring people to Jesus. I spend 10% of my income on God through various ways to disciple to people. Purchase books, bookmarkers, ect to give out that hopefully will help people come to read and learn about Jesus.

That is how I tithe to God through my personal relationship with him.

God Bless!
Student of Jesus
 
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New_Wineskin

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I thought your numbers were pretty low. The numbers that I remembered were much higher. I checked Barna and the percentages are much lower than I thought.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=52

The survey did say that it was discussing how much people were giving to their clubs - not giving in total .

The interesting thing about the survey is that it shows that a large percentage of people who go to groups claiming that their idea of a tithe is mandatory don't do it . Yet , people from these groups are insisting that everyone do it . Why are these people not *first* going after their own people *before* going after those that disagree with the idea ? If one can't influence those that are in the seats next to them , what sort of results do they expect from those that don't agree and are not in their types of groups ? :scratch:

How about the pulpiteers in those groups simply say , "Give us 10% of your money or leave and don't come back !! " ?

I heard of a group that had had a survey of their people and found out what they made in a year . Later on , they sent letters to people saying that they were behind in their "tithes" based on what they have "given" and what their salaries were .
 
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One of our members came from an evangelical church - I think they class themselves as independent - and the first thing she said to me was "how much money do I have to give?" When I told her that giving was between her and God and we did not expect a set amount, she was very relieved. She is severely disabled and on benefits, but her last church expected a certain amount, and someone actually used to go through her finances to see what she could afford. :eek: :sigh: :mad: How Christian! How wonderful to give the impression that they were more concerned about her money than about her.

Now I must admit that a) I don't know if the Pastor knew of, and encouraged this, and b) that was not the only reason why she left the church. She also didn't say that this was tithing - although I'm almost certain that it was, as tithing at least has the appearance of being scriptural, whereas getting more out of people than they can afford, isn't. But the fact remains - someone in that church thought she wasn't giving enough, and that they had a right to go through her finances to get her to increase her giving. Well in that particular case they lost out, because now she isn't giving them anything at all.
 
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The interesting thing about the survey is that it shows that a large percentage of people who go to groups claiming that their idea of a tithe is mandatory don't do it . Yet , people from these groups are insisting that everyone do it . Why are these people not *first* going after their own people *before* going after those that disagree with the idea ? If one can't influence those that are in the seats next to them , what sort of results do they expect from those that don't agree and are not in their types of groups ? :scratch:

You know, that's a very interesting question. I was thinking to myself, "I wonder how many people are taught that tithing is Biblical but still don't do it." My church doesn't stress tithing, but does believe in it. Once a year our pastor does a sermon on giving. He isn't legalistic about tithing, but does believe it's a guideline and that if we can give more, we should.

On a sidenote, last week the sermon was about how you cannot serve God and money. He made the point that we live in the wealthiest state in the wealthiest county and country in the world. Almost 2% of our state consists of millionaires. The drive for money is unbelievable where I live. It's literally most people's "god" and it's hard not to get sucked into that mentality sometimes. OK, end sidenote...

I'm beginning to see how the tithing principal is nothing more than a legalistic burden and a way to make people feel guilty and oppressed. Jesus actually died to set us free from that!

I heard of a group that had had a survey of their people and found out what they made in a year . Later on , they sent letters to people saying that they were behind in their "tithes" based on what they have "given" and what their salaries were .

That's unbelievable. What were they thinking? Did they think people would say "gee, you're right, let me catch up on that!"
 
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