Sin

Reformationist · Sep 19, 2002

I was wondering if someone could clarify something for me.  As I understand it, there are two catagories of sin that the Catholic church has designated, these being mortal and venial.  The way I understand the belief is that venial sins are not harmful to a Christian salvitically, but mortal sins are, unless repented for.  I am under the impression that most sin falls under the heading of venial.  What I am ignorant about is which sins are mortal.  Are these the "seven deadly sins?"

Thanks for your time.

God bless

pax · Sep 19, 2002

For a sin to be Mortal three conditions must be present:

1. Grave Matter - the sin itself must be grave enough to be considered mortal (i.e. adultery, murder, etc...)

2. Knowledge of gravity of sin - you must know the sin is mortal

3. Full consent - There aren't other factors that may lessen your gravity (Mental disorders, other major stressors, etc... Most of the time lack of consent may not necessarily not make something sinful, but often it can lessen the seriousness of the offence and on rare occasion, completely remit it).

Some Mortal sins can include:

Failing to hear Mass on Sundays and Holy Days (sin of disobedience)
Murder
Adultery
Major Theft
Perjury

etc...

nyj · Sep 19, 2002

Originally posted by pax
For a sin to be Mortal three conditions must be present:

1. Grave Matter - the sin itself must be grave enough to be considered mortal (i.e. adultery, murder, etc...)

2. Knowledge of gravity of sin - you must know the sin is mortal

3. Full consent - There aren't other factors that may lessen your gravity (Mental disorders, other major stressors, etc... Most of the time lack of consent may not necessarily not make something sinful, but often it can lessen the seriousness of the offence and on rare occasion, completely remit it).

Example: Divorce

1) As to divorce being grave matter, the Catholic Church states: CCC 2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign.

2) Knowledge of the gravity of sin? For a Catholic such as myself, well versed in the teachings of the Catholic Church, I can not claim ignorance of the fact that divorce is grave matter, that it is a serious offense against God and to society. Having obtained a divorce, I am well aware of the seriousness of this issue, yet obtained one anyways which leads us to...

3) Full consent. Knowing the gravity of the nature of divorce, and having obtained one anyways, I have willingly disobeyed God's natural laws and set my will opposed to His. I have disobeyed God willingly and knowingly, rejecting the sacramental graces He bestowed upon me at the time I took my wedding vows. My wife (since the Church has not recognized my divorce) however did not consent to this divorce, yet under the laws of Oklahoma, the divorce is still legal. Since she did not consent, but rather, was forced into this situation, she does not meet the criteria for the commission of a mortal sin. I on the other hand, have committed a mortal sin.

If I die on the way home tonight, I will go to hell. It's as simple as that.

Caedmon · Sep 19, 2002

Originally posted by pax
Some Mortal sins can include:

Failing to hear Mass on Sundays and Holy Days (sin of disobedience)

Aye caramba...

Caedmon · Sep 19, 2002

Originally posted by nyj
If I die on the way home tonight, I will go to hell. It's as simple as that.

Alright, you finalized your divorce and there's nothing you can do to reverse it, and yet you desire to repent. Will you go to Hell if you can't get to a Confession in time? Also, what exactly comes of the marriage? Are you required to "remarry" this person? What if you can't make it work?

KC Catholic · Sep 19, 2002

Oh cheese and crackers NYJ! Are you OK?

Email or PM me if you need to!

((((NYJ))))

Wolseley · Sep 19, 2002

nyj, are you speaking figuratively, or literally?

seebs · Sep 19, 2002

Aya!

That's actually a very tough question. BTW, nyj, my advice would be "don't go home then".

So, out of curiousity, at what point do you stop being in danger of hell? When you repent? When you confess your sin? When you remarry?

I would assume it is the repentance, not the confession, that lets you go to heaven; otherwise, you could send people to Hell by denying them priests.

isshinwhat · Sep 19, 2002

Alright, you finalized your divorce and there's nothing you can do to reverse it, and yet you desire to repent. Will you go to Hell if you can't get to a Confession in time? Also, what exactly comes of the marriage? Are you required to "remarry" this person? What if you can't make it work?

The Church doesn't believe that two married people can ever really spiritually divorce. A legal divorce is permissible in certain circumstances, but remarriage to another person is never an option. Therefore a Catholic who was legally divorced should remain celibate for the remainder of their life, or reconcile with their estranged spouse, because spiritually they are still married. Does that help?

God Bless,

Neal

Wolseley · Sep 19, 2002

There is always the possibility of an anullment, however......this is where the marriage is examined by a team of canon lawyers, theologians, and psychologists, to determine if the conditions existed at the time of the wedding for an actual marriage to exist. Sometimes it is concluded that due to certain factors (immaturity of the parties, for example), the marriage cannot be considered canonically valid, and a statement declaring the marriage sacramentally null is issued, allowing the parties to re-marry.

It must be stressed that any children produced by the nullified union are still considered legitimate.

Caedmon · Sep 19, 2002

/me apologizes in advance if nyj was speaking literally and he got offended by the subsequent posts...

niwde · Sep 20, 2002

i feel divorce is a sin,why
search urself
i can just pick up the newspaper and see so many celebs marrying and divorcing,like tom cruise and nicole kidman
if u search urself deeply,u will know y

y at first they want to commit themselves to each other
BECAUSE OF SEX
thats all
if u really love ur partner,u will wait,and if that love is from god,it last forever.perhaps maybe heaven

actually all sins are bad
but because we sin so often that we do not know when we actually sin.
so there are 2 types ,venial and mortal
if we were to confess all venial sins,i think we won't be doing anything in the secular world.
mortal sins are of course,u know it is big and dangerous

Reformationist · Sep 20, 2002

Originally posted by pax
For a sin to be Mortal three conditions must be present:

1. Grave Matter - the sin itself must be grave enough to be considered mortal (i.e. adultery, murder, etc...)

2. Knowledge of gravity of sin - you must know the sin is mortal

3. Full consent - There aren't other factors that may lessen your gravity (Mental disorders, other major stressors, etc... Most of the time lack of consent may not necessarily not make something sinful, but often it can lessen the seriousness of the offence and on rare occasion, completely remit it).

Some Mortal sins can include:

Failing to hear Mass on Sundays and Holy Days (sin of disobedience)
Murder
Adultery
Major Theft
Perjury

etc...

Okay.  So we have missing mass on Sundays and Holy Days, Murder, Adultery, Major Theft, Perjury, and Divorce.  Any others?  How do you come to know which sins are mortal in nature?  Is there a list somewhere?

God bless

isshinwhat · Sep 20, 2002

Galatians 5:13

For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another take heed that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The categories are fairly broad-based, and not often specific, as far as I have been told.

Here is an excerpt from the Catholic Encyclopedia article "Sin", copied from www.newadvent.org.

III. MORTAL SIN
Mortal sin is defined by St. Augustine (Contra Faustum, XXII, xxvii) as "Dictum vel factum vel concupitum contra legem æternam", i.e. something said, done or desired contrary to the eternal law, or a thought, word, or deed contrary to the eternal law. This is a definition of sin as it is a voluntary act. As it is a defect or privation it may be defined as an aversion from God, our true last end, by reason of the preference given to some mutable good. The definition of St. Augustine is accepted generally by theologians and is primarily a definition of actual mortal sin. It explains well the material and formal elements of sin. The words "dictum vel factum vel concupitum" denote the material element of sin, a human act: "contra legem æternam", the formal element. The act is bad because it transgresses the Divine law. St. Ambrose (De paradiso, viii) defines sin as a "prevarication of the Divine law". The definition of St. Augustine strictly considered, i.e. as sin averts us from our true ultimate end, does not comprehend venial sin, but in as much as venial sin is in a manner contrary to the Divine law, although not averting us from our last end, it may be said to be included in the definition as it stands. While primarily a definition of sins of commission, sins of omission may be included in the definition because they presuppose some positive act (St. Thomas, I-II:71:5) and negation and affirmation are reduced to the same genus. Sins that violate the human or the natural law are also included, for what is contrary to the human or natural law is also contrary to the Divine law, in as much as every just human law is derived from the Divine law, and is not just unless it is in conformity with the Divine law.

God Bless,

Neal

Reformationist · Sep 20, 2002

Originally posted by isshinwhat
The categories are fairly broad-based, and not often specific, as far as I have been told.

So if there is no definitive text dictating the catagory that a sin fits into, how do you determine if your salvation is in jeapordy for any particular sin?  I know you all believe that we must repent for every sin, but as far as the salvitically impairing ones, how do you know what they are?  Going by pax's definition, you would need some authoritative judgment on whether your sin is "considered mortal," right?  Who is it that determines whether the sin is mortal?

Here is an excerpt from the Catholic Encyclopedia article "Sin", copied from www.newadvent.org.

III. MORTAL SIN
Mortal sin is defined by St. Augustine (Contra Faustum, XXII, xxvii) as "Dictum vel factum vel concupitum contra legem æternam", i.e. something said, done or desired contrary to the eternal law, or a thought, word, or deed contrary to the eternal law. This is a definition of sin as it is a voluntary act. As it is a defect or privation it may be defined as an aversion from God, our true last end, by reason of the preference given to some mutable good. The definition of St. Augustine is accepted generally by theologians and is primarily a definition of actual mortal sin. It explains well the material and formal elements of sin. The words "dictum vel factum vel concupitum" denote the material element of sin, a human act: "contra legem æternam", the formal element. The act is bad because it transgresses the Divine law. St. Ambrose (De paradiso, viii) defines sin as a "prevarication of the Divine law". The definition of St. Augustine strictly considered, i.e. as sin averts us from our true ultimate end, does not comprehend venial sin, but in as much as venial sin is in a manner contrary to the Divine law, although not averting us from our last end, it may be said to be included in the definition as it stands. While primarily a definition of sins of commission, sins of omission may be included in the definition because they presuppose some positive act (St. Thomas, I-II:71:5) and negation and affirmation are reduced to the same genus. Sins that violate the human or the natural law are also included, for what is contrary to the human or natural law is also contrary to the Divine law, in as much as every just human law is derived from the Divine law, and is not just unless it is in conformity with the Divine law.

God Bless,

Neal

No wonder you Catholics are so smart.  You'd have to be genius to read stuff like this on a regular basis.

God bless

isshinwhat · Sep 20, 2002

Confession is more than just telling the priest your sins, it involves counsel, as well. That is where a lot of learning takes place. The priest will counsel you specifically, one on one. Mass and religious education classes, as well, are good sources of information. I believe Religious Ed. classes are mandantory for children in most Diocese, aren't they? KC, Wols, nyj, someone who knows, :help:

me out with that.

For me, though, Confession has been a great source of grace and learning.

God Bless,

Neal

Reformationist · Sep 20, 2002

Originally posted by isshinwhat
Confession is more than just telling the priest your sins, it involves counsel, as well. That is where a lot of learning takes place. The priest will counsel you specifically, one on one. Mass and religious education classes, as well, are good sources of information. I believe Religious Ed. classes are mandantory for children in most Diocese, aren't they? KC, Wols, nyj, someone who knows, me out with that.

For me, though, Confession has been a great source of grace and learning.

God Bless,

Neal

Uhhh...Neal...did you mean to post this here? :scratch:

Is this in reply to me asking how you learn if your sin is classified as mortal?

Thanks,

Don

isshinwhat · Sep 20, 2002

how do you determine if your salvation is in jeapordy for any particular sin? I know you all believe that we must repent for every sin, but as far as the salvitically impairing ones, how do you know what they are?

Yeah, but it wasn't very clear nor coherent, was it?

Sorry about that, I'm getting ready to leave for Pensacola on Sunday to look for a job, and Carole's mother and Father have been in town for Anne's birthday (that's Carole's mother), so I have been very busy this week.

My post was in response to your question I posted above. We learn about sin a lot in Confession while taliking with a priest. It is nice, because it is tailored specifically to us. In confession we are absolved of all our sins, not just those we confess, unless we leave them out purposely in our confession. If we forget to confess a sin, even if it is a Mortal one, our sincere desire for repentance and the grace of Christ through the Sacrament covers us and it is forgiven. So technically speaking, we don't have to confess every sin to have them all forgiven.

That clarify a little, I hope.

God Bless,

Neal

Reformationist · Sep 20, 2002

Originally posted by isshinwhat
Yeah, but it wasn't very clear nor coherent, was it? Sorry about that, I'm getting ready to leave for Pensacola on Sunday to look for a job, and Carole's mother and Father have been in town for Anne's birthday (that's Carole's mother), so I have been very busy this week.

Well, I'll try to wrap this up then.  Good luck with your family.

In confession we are absolved of all our sins, not just those we confess, unless we leave them out purposely in our confession.

So what exactly does "absolved" mean in that context?

If we forget to confess a sin, even if it is a Mortal one, our sincere desire for repentance and the grace of Christ through the Sacrament covers us and it is forgiven. So technically speaking, we don't have to confess every sin to have them all forgiven.

Here's where I get a bit confused.  If you forget to confess you're okay, but according to nyj, if you die before you get the chance, you're going to hell.  Am I understanding that correctly?

God bless,

Don

Reformationist · Sep 20, 2002

Oh yeah, sorry, but who is it again that determines if the sin falls into the "mortal" catagory?  Is that the priest?

Thanks,

Don

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