Sin

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by VOW
Don't worry about it, Joe. You'll understand in your own time.

No, I don't think I could go spill my guts to an imperfect man I don't know, and then be expected to do whatever he tells me. I can neither trust it nor accept it.

 

[isshinwhat]

Then don't do anything Paul says in Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, etc., because he was admittedly a sinner.  Don't believe what John, Matthew, Luke, or Mark wrote of Christ because they could have screwed it all up since they were imperfect, too.  Faith takes guts, Joe.  If you think it is easy to accept every precept the Church teaches, then you are fooling yourself.  As for me, like Peter, I say where else can we go?  To who else can we turn?  I believe it because I have faith, not because I have it all figured it out.  I believe it because the same man whom I believe was born of a Virgin and was God in the flesh left us the Holy Spirit to be a true guide and comforter.  I do not trust the men.  I trust the Spirit of God.  Thanks for the input.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by seebs
I think it's very hard for us to correctly judge the importance of our actions to God. I think it is particularly easy for us to treat a sin as more or less severe than it really is based on how it affects us, or how we've been raised. I think a lot of people end up totally ignoring malice, anger, and envy, while obsessing for hours and hours over the possibility that someone might be wearing clothes which could inspire lustful thoughts.

It's so easy to focus on the sins of others or on one's own "safe" sins. It takes a lot of vigilance to look at yourself with a critical eye at all times.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by humblejoe
Personally, I wouldn't be able to trust my sin "diagnosis" to the imperfect judgment of a single man. I could never trust to give 100% authority over something as significant as my spirituality to a single man.

Remember that you are a single man. The priest is a second opinion.

 

[Caedmon]

I believe it is in everyone's best interest that I do not continue posting in this thread. I apologize for offending everyone.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by fragmentsofdreams
It's so easy to focus on the sins of others or on one's own "safe" sins. It takes a lot of vigilance to look at yourself with a critical eye at all times.

Indeed. I've hardly ever been even the slightest bit tempted to cheat on my wife, and it's *really* easy for me to be offended by infidelity... but foolhardy, because I know that not everyone finds that one easy. I see a lot of people who rail and rail about the horrors of homosexuality, but have *they* ever been tempted? Probably not.

I generally feel pretty comfortable talking to people about anger. That, at least, is a sin I am intimately familiar with. (Although we are currently going through a trial separation.)

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by humblejoe
I believe it is in everyone's best interest that I do not continue posting in this thread. I apologize for offending everyone.

I wasn't offended (but admittedly, I'm probably not part of "everyone" for these purposes). I actually share some of your doubts about this, although I think I see how this is supposed to work.

 

[Reformationist]

Could someone address my post #28?  I understand, thanks to nyj, that it is God who judges the catagory of a sin committed, however, as I stated, I have not seen anywhere in the Bible where it catagorizes sin, with the exception of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, certainly not as "mortal" or "venial."  So, what I'm asking is, how did, or how does, your church, or your priest, come to the knowledge of which sins are more serious than others and require greater pennance, or contrition?  And, how does that view fit in with the Prov. 6:16-19 verses I noted?

Thanks,

God bless

 

[VOW]

Okay, Ref:

From 1 John 5: 16-17

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

So, there are two different types of sins. And note, John MUST be talking about 'saved' individuals here. For if a person has not accepted the sacrifice of Christ, ALL SIN is deadly. The person is dead to sin. So John is talking about believers.

In fact, John's words could easily be interpreted as justifying Purgatory, but we won't go there now, LOL.

For the difference between deadly and non-deadly, let's go back to Galatians, 5: 19-21

19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, 21 occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

That list by Paul to the Church in Galatia is extensive. And remember, he's addressing members of the Church, believers. Warning non-believers of a specific list would be futile, because no matter what their behavior, they are dead and cannot inherit the kingdom, no matter what they do or don't do. So Paul is talking to the "saved." And he's telling them: do these things, and you won't see the kingdom of God.

That sounds pretty deadly to me.

So, the Church takes the writings of 1 John, the letter of Paul to the Galatians, and even your Scripture from Proverbs, and thus compiles the Catechism of the Church, which has been quoted above. And Catholics are taught about mortal and venial sins.

Does that help?



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by VOW
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, 21 occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Thanks VOW.  That helps alot.  Does that mean that the RCC and her priests relay that when someone is jealous, selfish, envious, has a bad thought about his brother, rivals with others, screams at someone, etc they have committed a "mortal" sin?  And when committing a mortal sin, or for that matter a venial sin, how is the proper act of contrition determined?  Is that at the discretion of the officiating priest?

Thanks,

God bless

 

[VOW]

To Ref:

The priest does not have a little checklist in his lap, ticking off your mortals and venials with a pencil while you tell him your sins.

He's looking to read YOU while you talk. And he's asking questions. And he's trying to get YOU to look inside yourself to see why you reacted to the occasions of sin the way you did.

If you go back to the detailed posts by Isshinwhat, Wolseley, and NYJ, you'll see that degree and intent carry a lot of weight.

And contrition counts, too. A small child, who really wouldn't be capable of committing a mortal sin, could FEEL as though he has, because of his personal contrition.

An adult with a blase attitude over venial sins, who is just in the confessional to get it over with, is just as condemned as someone who robbed a bank at gunpoint.

The priest is trying to do the impossible, and that is, to see inside your heart. The confessing party needs to understand that his actions are pulling him away from God, and he must set himself back on the path to righteousness.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[seebs]

Although it's not the Catholic Church, exactly, in one of the Brother Cadfael mysteries, there is mention of a pretty young girl who is frequently tempted by the young men of the village, and the parish priest has always been fairly kind to her, because he knows that she is suffering more from an excess of generosity than an excess of lust; he doesn't let her off with no penance, but neither does he judge her harshly when she repeats her mistakes. In other words, to put it in Catholic terminology, he judges that, because of her intent, her sins are venial, not mortal. She is genuinely repentant, and feels awful for letting God down, but she simply has no self-control.

I have often wondered who's really in more danger; the person whose "major" sins are sincerely repented and fought against, or the person who knows that everyone else in his field lies to customers, and can't see why it's such a big deal...