Sin

[nyj]

Originally posted by isshinwhat
If we forget to confess a sin, even if it is a Mortal one, our sincere desire for repentance and the grace of Christ through the Sacrament covers us and it is forgiven. So technically speaking, we don't have to confess every sin to have them all forgiven.

 

You cannot "forget" to confess a mortal sin.  By the very definition, a mortal sin is one done with full knowledge and consent of the individual.  You KNOW when you're committing a mortal sin, and the Church states that all mortal sins MUST be confessed prior to the death of the sinner.  No if's, and's or but's about it.

You "forget" to confess a mortal sin, you'll go to hell at the time of your death.  That's why they call them "mortal" afterall.

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Oh yeah, sorry, but who is it again that determines if the sin falls into the "mortal" catagory?  Is that the priest?

 

God.

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by Reformationist  
How do you come to know which sins are mortal in nature?  Is there a list somewhere?

 

This has already been said, but I hope to clarify the issue by giving at least one example.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

1874 To choose deliberately - that is, both knowing it and willing it - something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.

Gravely contrary, something so heinous that it is completely devoid of charity or christian thought and feeling. 

 

As has been stated already, a mortal sin must contain three elements. 1)Full knowledge, 2)Full consent and 3)grave matter.  Of the first two elements, no one can argue with because quite often when we sin, we know exactly what we are doing and no one is forcing us to do it.  The sticking point though comes down the point of "grave matter".

 

Let us take "stealing" for example.  Bill Gates and a poor old lady stand before me.  Bill leaves his wallet on a table while the old lady leaves her purse there as well.  Both turn their back.

 

Let us say that I take Bill Gates' wallet, rifle through it and pocket the money.  I've stolen from him, but is it grave matter?  It might be, it should certainly be confessed but how does it compare if...

 

I take the purse from the old lady and take all the money that was contained therein.  It was all the money she would have for the entire month, it was needed for her to pay rent and buy food.  Without it, she will be forced into the street and she will starve.  There is no doubt in my mind that what has just happened here was a mortal sin. 

 

Perhaps this may help explain "grave matter", perhaps it will not.  We could come up with "what if's" and "how about's" until the cows come home, but the fact of the matter is, we are born with an objective morality and to commit an offense of such magnitude against God without knowing we have done so is unfathomable to me.  If you commit a mortal sin, you'll know it.

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by Wolseley
nyj, are you speaking figuratively, or literally?

Both. 

Figuratively, because the divorce isn't finalized... until monday. 

Literally because, well... monday comes in 3 days.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by nyj
 God.

Okay.  Thanks.  But how do you know if your sin is "gravely contrary to the divine law" or if it's just contrary to Divine Law.  Sin, by it's very definition, is contrary to Divine Law.  How do you know if it's "gravely contrary."  You define it as "something so heinous that it is completely devoid of charity or christian thought and feeling."  That seems open to interpretation as to the opinion of the interpretor on what he/she thinks is "heinous."

Let us take "stealing" for example.  Bill Gates and a poor old lady stand before me.  Bill leaves his wallet on a table while the old lady leaves her purse there as well.  Both turn their back.

Let us say that I take Bill Gates' wallet, rifle through it and pocket the money.  I've stolen from him, but is it grave matter?  It might be, it should certainly be confessed but how does it compare if...

I take the purse from the old lady and take all the money that was contained therein.  It was all the money she would have for the entire month, it was needed for her to pay rent and buy food.  Without it, she will be forced into the street and she will starve.  There is no doubt in my mind that what has just happened here was a mortal sin.

Stealing from Bill Gates is different than stealing from an old lady?  Additionally, if you didn't know how bad it affected the old lady do you have "full knowledge" and, as it seems you don't, does this still fall under "mortal?"

Both. 

Figuratively, because the divorce isn't finalized... until monday. 

Literally because, well... monday comes in 3 days.

So, does this mean you can't marry again, ever?

Thanks,

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

So, do any of you have any opinions on which sins are definitely "mortal" in nature?

 

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by Reformationist
So, do any of you have any opinions on which sins are definitely "mortal" in nature?

The 10 Commandments is usually the place I start when examining my conscience in regards to "mortal" sins.

You know...

Did I put God first daily? Did I attend Mass (which is putting my relationship with God first) or did I let something else dominate my mind (my bills, football, music, etc). Did I pray daily?

Did I swear or take the Lords name in vain?

Did I keep the Sabbath Holy?

Did I honor my mother and father or was I a poor example as a parent to my children?

Did I covet my neighbors property or want for material things for myself instead of looking at what material I have that I could give to someone who needed it?

Did I kill anyone?

Did I steal? Maybe I 'stole' time from God by goofing on the 'net instead of reading my bible and praying for his will to be done.

 

You get the idea....

 

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by KC Catholic
The 10 Commandments is usually the place I start when examining my conscience in regards to "mortal" sins.

You know...

Did I put God first daily? Did I attend Mass (which is putting my relationship with God first) or did I let something else dominate my mind (my bills, football, music, etc). Did I pray daily?

Did I swear or take the Lords name in vain?

Did I keep the Sabbath Holy?

Did I honor my mother and father or was I a poor example as a parent to my children?

Did I covet my neighbors property or want for material things for myself instead of looking at what material I have that I could give to someone who needed it?

Did I kill anyone?

Did I steal? Maybe I 'stole' time from God by goofing on the 'net instead of reading my bible and praying for his will to be done.

 

You get the idea....

 

The strange thing is, I often hear about things that are considered to be larger or "more grave" sins than others but when studying God's Word it seems as if the things that God hates aren't really what we tend to put emphasis on:


<DIV>Proverbs 6:16-19
These six things the LORD hates,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>A proud look,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A lying tongue,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hands that shed innocent blood,&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>A heart that devises wicked plans,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Feet that are swift in running to evil,&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>A false witness who speaks lies,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; And one who sows discord among brethren.</DIV>

<DIV>So we see that God's Word specifically claims as an abomination to the Lord the following:</DIV>
<DIV>

• </DIV>
  <DIV>A proud look,</DIV>
  
  <DIV>a liar,</DIV>
  
  <DIV>a person who sheds innocent blood,</DIV>
  
  <DIV>a heart that devises wicked plans,</DIV>
  
  <DIV>those who are quick to do evil,</DIV>
  
  <DIV>a false witness,</DIV>
  
  <DIV>and one who sows discord among his brethren

</DIV>

<DIV>What gets me is that most of these haven't even been mentioned, and though Scripture implicitly states that God specifically hates these things most people don't consider them very high on the old sin scale, with the exception of maybe "hands that shed innocent blood."&nbsp; How do these verses mesh with what you are all advised in confession?</DIV>


<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>


<DIV>God bless</DIV>&nbsp;

 

[Auntie]

He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Matthew 19:8 KJV

He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
Matthew 19:8 NASB

He said to them, "It was because you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
Matthew 19:8 NRSV




This verse is very powerful. Man hardens his heart towards his wife, before he considers divorcing her. It is logical to conclude that a man will not consider divorce if he softens his heart toward his wife. Pray that God would soften your heart toward your wife, and then deliberately choose to soften your heart towards her.

 

[seebs]

I think it's very hard for us to correctly judge the importance of our actions to God. I think it is particularly easy for us to treat a sin as more or less severe than it really is based on how it affects us, or how we've been raised. I think a lot of people end up totally ignoring malice, anger, and envy, while obsessing for hours and hours over the possibility that someone might be wearing clothes which could inspire lustful thoughts.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by nyj
God.

I find it very difficult to consider a priest to always be equal with the word of God. Now the Church says that no man can know the salvation of any person. And yet it gives priests the right to classify you as going to Hell if you commit a sin of which they have the opinion it is "mortal". See, the priest can't tell that person they're going to Hell, and yet they can say that such-and-such sin is going to send them to Hell. That doesn't agree.

And on a tangent, I've heard that different priests have their "favorite" penances. That doesn't sound universal to me.

 

[seebs]

The way I've always seen it, the priest is human, and could theoretically be wrong, but is a trained professional in the field. So, I would view a priest's judgement on the seriousness of a sin the way I'd view a mechanic's judgement on the serious of a noise my car makes.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by seebs
The way I've always seen it, the priest is human, and could theoretically be wrong, but is a trained professional in the field. So, I would view a priest's judgement on the seriousness of a sin the way I'd view a mechanic's judgement on the serious of a noise my car makes.

Personally, I wouldn't be able to trust my sin "diagnosis" to the imperfect judgment of a single man. I could never trust to give 100% authority over something as significant as my spirituality to a single man.

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by humblejoe
I find it very difficult to consider a priest to always be equal with the word of God. Now the Church says that no man can know the salvation of any person. And yet it gives priests the right to classify you as going to Hell if you commit a sin of which they have the opinion it is "mortal". See, the priest can't tell that person they're going to Hell, and yet they can say that such-and-such sin is going to send them to Hell. That doesn't agree.

And on a tangent, I've heard that different priests have their "favorite" penances. That doesn't sound universal to me.

What part of the answer "God" (in response to the question "Who decides if a sin is mortal or not?") didn't you understand humblejoe? Where, in my answer, did I even say the word "priest"? You're railing against something that not even the Catholic Church believes... so if you wish to continue to tilt at windmills, HumbleQuixote, be my guest, but I'm not going there.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by nyj
What part of the answer "God" (in response to the question "Who decides if a sin is mortal or not?") didn't you understand humblejoe? Where, in my answer, did I even say the word "priest"? You're railing against something that not even the Catholic Church believes... so if you wish to continue to tilt at windmills, HumbleQuixote, be my guest, but I'm not going there.

My point is that the Catholic Church seems to say that a priest has the right to be the voice of God, insomuch as he is allowed to decide which sins are mortal.

And if I said something that the Catholic Church does not teach, then I would like corrective instruction, not a sardonic stab at my inquiry, and ridicule of my username.

 

[VOW]

Originally posted by humblejoe
I find it very difficult to consider a priest to always be equal with the word of God. Now the Church says that no man can know the salvation of any person. And yet it gives priests the right to classify you as going to Hell if you commit a sin of which they have the opinion it is "mortal". See, the priest can't tell that person they're going to Hell, and yet they can say that such-and-such sin is going to send them to Hell. That doesn't agree.

And on a tangent, I've heard that different priests have their "favorite" penances. That doesn't sound universal to me.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Joe, shame on you!

The priest does not JUDGE your sin. He evaluates your SINCERITY.

And a penance doesn't "earn" forgiveness from a particular sin!

A little boy who goes into the Confessional and says, "Father, I swiped a piece of gum from the store," certainly isn't in danger of going to Hell. Is he sincere?

The woman who comes in and says, "I cheated on my husband twice last week," is she sincere?

The priest may end up giving both of them the same penance. But a good priest will ask some questions. To the little boy, he'll say, "Can you tell me which of the Ten Commandments you broke?" And, "How do you think God feels when someone breaks one of His Holy rules?"

To the woman, there will probably be more questions. How long has she been married, what are the circumstances, are there children from her marriage, what does she plan to do?

Clearly, one sin is "worse" than the other. It's not the priest's job to qualify either one, though. With the boy, he's going to press home the thought that stealing is wrong. With the woman, he's probably going to find out if she intends on continuing her infidelity.

The boy might be told to use his allowance to pay for the gum.

The woman might be told she really needs to get into counseling.

The INTENT of the priest, though, for both of them is the same. Not judgment, but to help both of them to not sin again.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[isshinwhat]

My point is that the Catholic Church seems to say that a priest has the right to be the voice of God, insomuch as he is allowed to decide which sins are mortal.

Only God knows for certain if a sin is Mortal, but we can have a pretty good idea. All a priest can do is offer counsel, he cannot declare a sin mortal.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[isshinwhat]

nyj said:

You cannot "forget" to confess a mortal sin. By the very definition, a mortal sin is one done with full knowledge and consent of the individual. You KNOW when you're committing a mortal sin, and the Church states that all mortal sins MUST be confessed prior to the death of the sinner. No if's, and's or but's about it.

You "forget" to confess a mortal sin, you'll go to hell at the time of your death. That's why they call them "mortal" afterall.

From the Baltimore Catechism:

215. Q. Is our Confession worthy if, without our fault, we forget to confess a mortal sin?
A If without our fault we forget to confess a mortal sin, your Confession is worthy, and the sin is forgiven; but it must be told in Confession if it again comes to our mind.

216. Q. Is it a grievous offense willfully to conceal a mortal sin in Confession?
A It is a grievous offense willfully to conceal a mortal sin in Confession, because we thereby tell a lie to the Holy Ghost, and make our Confession worthless.

217. Q. What must he do who has willfully concealed a mortal sin in Confession?
A He who has willfully concealed a mortal sin in Confession must not only confess it, but must also repeat all the sins he has committed since his last worthy Confession.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Caedmon]

Alright guys, I didn't mean to cause a ruckus. It's just something that I can't accept.

And nyj, I guess both of us are going through some tough stuff in our lives. I let my temper get to me, and I struck at you. Please forgive me brother.

 

[VOW]

To Joe:

I think it's a matter of misunderstanding, not inability to accept.

For your entire life, I would imagine you have been under the belief that Catholics go to Confession to list their sins, the priest gives them penance to "earn forgiveness" and then they merrily go about living their lives, doing whatever they want.

Seeing how Confession is portrayed in the movies doesn't help, either.

"I lied to my mother, I stole a dollar from my father, and I spit in my sister's milk."

"For your penance, say five Hail Marys."

The kid goes skipping out of the Confessional, kneels in a pew, rattles off a quick five HMs, and then runs out the door to join his friends.

Especially if you've seen "Angela's Ashes." Oh, I loved that movie. Those poor kids! And they end up getting the new priest in the Confessional, and the priest ends up giving them NEW ideas for ways to sin, LOL.

Don't worry about it, Joe. You'll understand in your own time.



Peace,
~VOW