Which Requires More Faith?

You are conflating evolution with Christianity Most Christians I know accept evolution.


Present this evidence that the Earth was created, BTW.

This is a screwed up version of Pascals wager, only it replaces "atheism" with evolution.

Both Creation and Evolution are supported by scientific evidence. Neither, however, can be proven.

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Your logic chain relies on the assumption that Creation is supported by scientific evidence

Please before, continuing with your argument, present any such "scientific evidence" that you posses....

I'm a Christian. I accept Christ. I accept evolution.

Atheists believe that it doesn't matter what you do on this Earth, when you die, you're always the same thing: Dead.

Abviously an Atheist is not going to accept Christ, so acording to what he does not believe in, he will go to Hell.

However, a Christian will accept Christ, but according to what he does not believe in, he will end up in the same situation the Atheist is in: Death.

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Ah Pascals Wager

You are assuming that there are two possible outcomes, Christianity and Atheism, thereby winning the wager

However, in the reality of probabilities, there are infinite possibilities of Gods, and for all we know that the true one is Baal, and He will roast Christians, while chilling with the atheists

The wager is illogical, because of the faulty assumption, of only 2 set outcomes

ThatChristian said:

Both Creation and Evolution are supported by scientific evidence.

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Last time I checked, creationism had no evidence whatsoever.

So, which one requires more faith?

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That is honestly the first time I have seen Pascal's Wager mixed up with Creationism.

First, you conflate Christianity with creationism. You can be one but not the other. Usually the first without the latter, but sometimes the other way around.

More importantly, in my opinion, it commits all of the fallacies of the Wager. You are rejecting Allah and Vishnu, as well as Zeus, Thor and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Worst of all, though, you are suggesting that we should believe on something based on the weighing up of gains and losses. That doesn't work. I could not, even if I wanted to, believe something I thought was irrational.

ThatChristian said:

Both Creation and Evolution are supported by scientific evidence.

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No, only Evolution.

I have a funny feeling that, without this premise, the rest of your rambling falls on it's face. Let's find out.

ThatChristian said:

Neither, however, can be proven.

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Well, that depends on what you mean by 'Evolution' and 'Creationism'. For example, some aspects of Creationism can be disproved by being internally and/or externally inconsistent. Evolution as a phenomenon is indeed 'proven', since it is a known fact, no more debated than the existance of gravity.

Please define 'Creationism' and 'Evolution'.

ThatChristian said:

So here's the question I pose to you: Which one requires more faith?

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Creationism, obviously. Evolution, both the phenomenon itself, and the models and theories derived thereof, does not require faith.

ThatChristian said:

The obvious answer would be Creation, right? Not really. Think of it. You can't prove one or the other, but one concerns an afterlife, and one doesn't.

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Irrelevant. Newton's equations of motion do not concern the afterlife, but they do not require faith.

ThatChristian said:

In other words, Creationists believe that after you die, your soul is put... Somewhere.

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You automatically assume that all Creationists are necessarily Christian. While I'm neither a Christian nor a Creationist, I'm sure those from both camps frown on such broad brushes.

ThatChristian said:

Let's focus on the Christian belief for now, since this is a Christian webbsite. Christians believe that if you do not accept Christ then you will go to Hell, but if you do accept Christ then you will go to Heaven.

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A gross oversimplification that inherently excludes many Christians who do no accept this. You really don't like Christians, do you?

ThatChristian said:

Abviously an Atheist is not going to accept Christ, so acording to what he does not believe in, he will go to Hell.

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If and only if acceptance of Christ is required to avoid hell. Which, if I may be blunt, is BS.

I ask you: what does this have to do with Evolution, in any form? How does this relate to me, say? I am a staunch supporter of Evolution, but I am not an atheist.

ThatChristian said:

However, a Christian will accept Christ, but according to what he does not believe in, he will end up in the same situation the Atheist is in: Death.

So, which one requires more faith?

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My answer remains the same: Creationism. You have not mentioned Evolution in your mini-essay, so you have done nothing to sway me.

Verdict: fail.

ThatChristian said:

It would take a LOT of copy-paist time, so just look up Dr. Jay L. Wile.

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That would be the Dr. Jay L Wile, PhD Nuclear Chemistry, with no qualifications whatsoever in biology?

ThatChristian said:

It would take a LOT of copy-paist time, so just look up Dr. Jay L. Wile.

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So I'll take that as a no. Do the copy-paste work. From what I read about him he backs theories that are widely discredited. The rapid decay theory is the most I can find of him, and even I can explain that by noting that the magnetic feild of the earth changes polarity constantly- heck it even changed polarity tons of times!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal

ThatChristian said:

Both Creation and Evolution are supported by scientific evidence. Neither, however, can be proven.

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By "Creation" I assume you mean the so-called "Creation science." If that's the case then, well, I think not.

You are right though, evolution cannot be proven. It can, and is, supported by evidence. Creation science, however, is not.

If, on the other hand, you simply mean "Creation" in a general sense of the universe as a whole then yes, the universe is supported by evidence.

ThatChristian said:

So here's the question I pose to you: Which one requires more faith?

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The one that implies a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, invisible, undetectable, unexaminable and untestable entity created everything for no apparent reason other than so it would have an insignificant population of hairless apes on a small world orbiting an ordinary star worship it.

ThatChristian said:

The obvious answer would be Creation, right?

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Right-o!

ThatChristian said:

Not really. Think of it. You can't prove one or the other, but one concerns an afterlife, and one doesn't.

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Something else for which you have no evidence. You're digging yourself further into a hole you had no chance of getting out of in the first place.

ThatChristian said:

In other words, Creationists believe that after you die, your soul is put... Somewhere.

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Well, that explains a whole lot.

ThatChristian said:

Let's focus on the Christian belief for now, since this is a Christian webbsite. Christians believe that if you do not accept Christ then you will go to Hell, but if you do accept Christ then you will go to Heaven.

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Neither of which they can show exists.

ThatChristian said:

Atheists believe that it doesn't matter what you do on this Earth, when you die, you're always the same thing: Dead.

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Of which there is ample evidence for. If one is dead they are, and can be scientifically shown to be, in fact, dead.

We make no claims otherwise (in general. Some atheists may, but not me).

ThatChristian said:

Abviously an Atheist is not going to accept Christ, so acording to what he does not believe in, he will go to Hell.

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And so will you for not believing in Allah. Or perhaps you'll end up in one of the many Hells of Chinese and Japanese religions for not following those.

Scary isn't it? Thought not since you don't believe in them. Same for atheists and your particular brand of punishment for an afterlife you can't even show evidence that you, or anyone else, will have.

ThatChristian said:

However, a Christian will accept Christ, but according to what he does not believe in, he will end up in the same situation the Atheist is in: Death.

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Along with everyone else as far as the evidence shows.

ThatChristian said:

So, which one requires more faith?

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Creationism. I thought we covered that. By the way, how did we get to accepting Jesus and onto the topic of Hell from a question about Creationism and evolution?

WingsOfTheNeophyte said:

Ah Pascals Wager

You are assuming that there are two possible outcomes, Christianity and Atheism, thereby winning the wager

However, in the reality of probabilities, there are infinite possibilities of Gods, and for all we know that the true one is Baal, and He will roast Christians, while chilling with the atheists

The wager is illogical, because of the faulty assumption, of only 2 set outcomes

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There's another fatal flaw in Pascal's wager. In its formal form, it requires an infinite payback be posited. Infinity is not a real number. Arithmetic with infinity is undefined in the reals.

Trying to pretend it is a real number tends to lead to silly results.

ThatChristian said:

Both Creation and Evolution are supported by scientific evidence. Neither, however, can be proven.

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Actually the truth of evolution can be quite easily demonstrated. I'm not sure what you mean by "creation." If you're referring to the theory that the earth is 6,000 years old and that there is no such thing as biological evolution, that can be proven false quite easily as well.

ThatChristian said:

So here's the question I pose to you: Which one requires more faith?

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I have a counter-question for you. Is it really a good thing to diminish faith and treat it negatively? The Bible is replete with admonishions to believe Christ in faith, and Jesus himself praised the faith of others. If atheists have more faith than us, then that means we're doing something wrong.

ThatChristian said:

The obvious answer would be Creation, right? Not really. Think of it. You can't prove one or the other, but one concerns an afterlife, and one doesn't.

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I'm not aware the either of these theories concerns the afterlife. Creation scientists claim that their beliefs are scientific. Science by definition doesn't deal with the supernatural. So creation scientists often claim that their theories can be scientifically verified, thus negating the need for faith. The problem is that it doesn't work. There's absolutely no science in creation science.

ThatChristian said:

In other words, Creationists believe that after you die, your soul is put... Somewhere. Let's focus on the Christian belief for now, since this is a Christian webbsite. Christians believe that if you do not accept Christ then you will go to Hell, but if you do accept Christ then you will go to Heaven.

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This isn't a creationist belief; this is a pretty standard Christian belief. It may surprise you that I believe all non-Christians are headed for eternal hell unless they repent and believe in Jesus, but the truth is that I do believe the Bible. I also believe in facts, and the facts show creation science to be completely unscientific. May I ask why you believe that only creationists would believe in the necessity of faith in Jesus for salvation?

I would encourage you not to believe in creation science. Trust me when I say that creation scientists lie in order to prove their claims. And I don't think you believe in lying for God anymore than I do.

ThatChristian said:

Abviously an Atheist is not going to accept Christ, so acording to what he does not believe in, he will go to Hell.

However, a Christian will accept Christ, but according to what he does not believe in, he will end up in the same situation the Atheist is in: Death.

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Atheism and evolution aren't the same thing. They're not even close.

ThatChristian said:

It would take a LOT of copy-paist time, so just look up Dr. Jay L. Wile.

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I doubt it would take this much time. I could post substantial evidence against a young earth in a couple of paragraphs. And I could do it without doing any copy & paste jobs. If the evidence for creation science is so straightforward, then surely you could provide it without overwhelming us with text, could you not?

ThatChristian said:

It would take a LOT of copy-paist time, so just look up Dr. Jay L. Wile.

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You mean the guy who drags out PRATTs such as:

The Amount of Sodium in the Oceans.

The Earth's Helium Inventory.

Dendrochronology, specifically "Methuselah", the worlds oldest living tree.

The Earth's Magnetic Field (nothing especially wrong with the topic, but it's the way he uses it.)

so on and so forth."

I didn't read his little article but I'm willing to be that everything in there has been refuted many times over.

SOURCE: The Earth: Is it Young or Oldhttp://www.apologiaonline.com/conf/ageearth.pdf

flatworm said:

There's another fatal flaw in Pascal's wager. In its formal form, it requires an infinite payback be posited. Infinity is not a real number. Arithmetic with infinity is undefined in the reals.

Trying to pretend it is a real number tends to lead to silly results.

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I did some seriously dodgy maths today... It involved finding the equation of the normal at a stationary point. Rather than writing down, "x=1" like normal people, I put m = infinity into the equation, and divided everything by it to get the LHS = 0...

Which Requires More Faith?

I think this is something that needs to be adressed.

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It has been, it gets dredged up at least 10 times per year and it is always the same.

Quoting: ThatChristian
"Which Requires More Faith?

I think this is something that needs to be addressed.

Both Creation and Evolution are supported by scientific evidence. Neither, however, can be proven.

So here's the question I pose to you: Which one requires more faith?"

There are so many opinions and theories....
I am a Chrisitain and I believe in Creation.
It is a subject that can go back and forth and has since and before, I had joined on this forum. I have many books, sites, and thoughts for all that I have chosen to believe in...

Just for information there is a wonderful site to see for this:
http://www.icr.org/article/3191/
Because evolution has never been observed, the theory of evolution requires as much faith as creationism does - by Henry Morris


I have much more I could share .... but I just thought I would share this....

I believe in Jesus
Mickey

Mickey1953 said:

Just for information there is a wonderful site to see for this:
http://www.icr.org/article/3191/

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The article implies that because models derived from Evolution are still being refined in light of new data, that said models are wrong! I don't think I need to tell you the glaring fallacy in doing this.

Mickey1953 said:

Because evolution has never been observed, the theory of evolution requires as much faith as creationism does - by Henry Morris

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I'm not sure if you believe this statement, but there it is catagorically wrong; evolution has been observed.

Mickey1953 said:

http://www.icr.org/article/3191/
Because evolution has never been observed, the theory of evolution requires as much faith as creationism does - by Henry Morris

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This, of course, is a blatant falsehood.
Evolution has been observed. The fact of the matter is, allele frequencies DO change in a population over time. Denying this is denying reality. Denying reality is tantamount to lying.
Lying for Jesus is a bad thing, isnt it?

Mickey1953 said:

Because evolution has never been observed, the theory of evolution requires as much faith as creationism does - by Henry Morris

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Henry Morris, and anyone else who believes this, is wrong.

See 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution or Five Major Misconceptions about Evolution - Evolution Has Never Been Observed