Thank you for answering the question.
And to answer your question. It is all to do with presentation.
And to answer your question. It is all to do with presentation.
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Hi.
I shared my view in another post:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=31088072#post31088072
It's in response to some of the criticism i've seen in this thread and elsewhere. But i posted it seperately so i wouldn't hijack this one - although it appears that's already happened.
oneofthem
I shared my view in another post:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=31088072#post31088072
It's in response to some of the criticism i've seen in this thread and elsewhere. But i posted it seperately so i wouldn't hijack this one - although it appears that's already happened.
oneofthem
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Gavwalk
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Just to start on the right foot Helen i will answer these for you :
Why do people like going to Church with the same number of people they go to the footy with? I dont see this as a problem, I dont think numbers dictate how good or bad something is
Why do they like listening to music that all sounds the same?
May sound the same to you , but to a lot of people it is very different.
Why do they seem to ride a wave of emotion as they relate to God - and when it doesn't feel good anymore, they stop?
Dont know where you got this from ? this is not true , it is not about emotion.
Why do they go for prosperity gospel so much? Why do our rewards have to be earthly? Couldn't they be heavenly? I think they are both , here on Earth as it is in heaven , A lot of the American prosperity Gospel I totally disagree with , but Christians using money to spread the word and help people is good , well according to scripture it is any way
Hope this helps
Why do people like going to Church with the same number of people they go to the footy with? I dont see this as a problem, I dont think numbers dictate how good or bad something is
Why do they like listening to music that all sounds the same?
May sound the same to you , but to a lot of people it is very different.
Why do they seem to ride a wave of emotion as they relate to God - and when it doesn't feel good anymore, they stop?
Dont know where you got this from ? this is not true , it is not about emotion.
Why do they go for prosperity gospel so much? Why do our rewards have to be earthly? Couldn't they be heavenly? I think they are both , here on Earth as it is in heaven , A lot of the American prosperity Gospel I totally disagree with , but Christians using money to spread the word and help people is good , well according to scripture it is any way
Hope this helps
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exwitchoz
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In the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel Movement, the believer is told to use God, whereas the truth of biblical Christianity is just the opposite, God uses the believer - NOT the other way round!!!
Word Faith or prosperity theology sees the Holy Spirit as a power to put to use for whatever the believer wills. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is a Person who enables the believer to do God's will. The movement closely resembles some of the destructive greed sects that infiltrated the early church. Paul and the other apostles were not accommodating to or conciliatory with the false teachers who propagated such heresy. They identified them as dangerous false teachers and urged Christians to avoid them.
Paul warned Timothy about "constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.... But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness." (1 Timothy 6:5, 9-11.).
Paul said covetousness is idolatry (Ephesians 5:5) and forbade the Ephesians to be partakers with anyone who brought a message of immorality or covetousness (Ephesians 5:6-7). .
Prosperity teaching prohibits God from working on His own, meaning that God is not Lord of all because He can not work until we release Him to do so. Faith, according to the Word of Faith/Prosperity doctrine, is not submissive trust in God; faith is a formula by which we manipulate the spiritual laws prosperity teachers believe govern the universe - Sorry guys but as an exWitch I can assure you al that THAT is Magick pure and simple!!!. As in the name "Word of Faith" implies, this movement teaches that faith is a matter of what we say more than whom we trust or what truths we embrace and affirm in our hearts.
A favourite term in the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel movement is "positive confession." It refers to the teaching that words have creative power. What you say, Word of Faith teachers claim, determines everything that happens to you. Your confessions, especially the favours you demand of God, must all be stated positively and without wavering. Then God is required to answer. Thus God's ability to bless us supposedly hangs on our faith. James 4:13-16 clearly contradicts this teaching, "Come now, you who say, Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit. Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that. But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil."
Far from stressing the importance of wealth, the Bible warns against pursuing it. Believers, especially leaders in the church (1 Timothy 3:3), are to be free from the love of money (Hebrews 13:5). Love of money leads to all kinds of evil (1 Timothy 6:10). Jesus warned, "Beware and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions" (Luke 12:15). In sharp contrast to the Word Faith's gospel's emphasis on gaining money and possessions in this life, Jesus said "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal" (Matthew 6:19).
The irreconcilable contradiction between prosperity teaching gospel and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is best summed up in the words of Jesus in Matthew 6:24, "You cannot serve God and riches."
Make no mistake... Word of Faith teaching is decidedly unbiblical. It is not a denomination, and does not have a formal organization or hierarchy. Instead, it is a movement that is heavily influenced by a number of high-profile pastors and teachers such as Kenneth Hagin, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Paul and Jan Crouch, and Fred Price.
The Word of Faith/Prosperity movement grew out of the Pentecostal movement in the latter 20th century. Its founder was E. W. Kenyon, who studied the metaphysical New Thought teachings of Phineas Quimby. Mind science (where "name it claim it" originated) fit well with the emerging Pentecostal movement and its emphasis on the supernatural, so he combined them and created a peculiar mix of orthodox Christianity and mysticism. Kenneth Hagin in turn studied under E. W. Kenyon and made the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel movement what it is today. Although individual teachings range from completely heretical to completely ridiculous, what follows is the basic theology most Word of Faith teachers align themselves with.
At the heart of the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel movement is the belief in the "force of faith." It is believed words can be used to manipulate the faith-force, and thus actually create what they believe Scripture promises (health and wealth). Laws supposedly governing the faith-force are said to operate independently of God's sovereign will and that God Himself is subject to these laws.
From here, its theology just strays further and further from Scripture: In some extreme forms it even claims that God created human beings in as little gods... that before the fall, humans had the potential to call things into existence by using the faith-force. After the fall humans took on Satan's nature and lost the ability to call things into existence. In order to correct this situation, Jesus Christ gave up His divinity and became a man, died spiritually, took Satan's nature upon Himself, went to hell, was born-again, and rose from the dead with God's nature. After this, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to replicate the Incarnation in believers so they could become little gods as God had originally intended.
Following the natural progression of these teachings, as little gods we again have the ability to manipulate the faith-force and become prosperous in all areas of life. Illness, sin, and failure are the result of a lack of faith, and are remedied by confession - claiming God's promises for oneself into existence. Simply put, the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel movement exalts man to god-status and reduces God to man-status.
Needless to say, this is a false representation of what Christianity is all about. Obviously, Word of Faith teaching does not take into account what is found in Scripture. Personal revelation is highly relied upon in order to come up with such absurd beliefs, which is just one more thing counted unbiblical.
Countering Word of Faith/Prosperity teaching is a simple matter of reading the Bible. God alone is the Sovereign Creator of the Universe (Genesis 1:3; 1 Timothy 6:15), and does not need faith - -He is the object of faith (Mark 11:22; Hebrews 11:3). God is spirit, and does not have a physical body (John 4:24). Man was created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26, 27; 9:6), but this does not make him a little god nor divine. Only God has a divine nature (Galatians 4:8; Isaiah 1:6-11, 43:10, 44:6; Ezekiel 28:2; Psalms 8:6-8). Christ is Eternal, the Only Begotten Son, and the only incarnation of God (John 1:1, 2, 15; 1:14, 18; 3:16; 1 John 4:1). In Him dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9). By becoming a man Jesus gave up the glory of heaven but not His divinity (Philippians 2:6-7) though He did choose to withhold His power while walking the earth as man.
The Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel movement is deceiving countless people, causing them to grasp after a way of life and faith that is not biblical. Our hope is in the Lord, not in our own words, not even in our own faith (Psalm 33:20-22). Our faith comes from God in the first place (2 Peter 1:1), and is not something we create for ourselves. So, be wary of the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel movement, and any church that aligns itself with Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel teachings.
Word Faith or prosperity theology sees the Holy Spirit as a power to put to use for whatever the believer wills. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is a Person who enables the believer to do God's will. The movement closely resembles some of the destructive greed sects that infiltrated the early church. Paul and the other apostles were not accommodating to or conciliatory with the false teachers who propagated such heresy. They identified them as dangerous false teachers and urged Christians to avoid them.
Paul warned Timothy about "constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.... But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness." (1 Timothy 6:5, 9-11.).
Paul said covetousness is idolatry (Ephesians 5:5) and forbade the Ephesians to be partakers with anyone who brought a message of immorality or covetousness (Ephesians 5:6-7). .
Prosperity teaching prohibits God from working on His own, meaning that God is not Lord of all because He can not work until we release Him to do so. Faith, according to the Word of Faith/Prosperity doctrine, is not submissive trust in God; faith is a formula by which we manipulate the spiritual laws prosperity teachers believe govern the universe - Sorry guys but as an exWitch I can assure you al that THAT is Magick pure and simple!!!. As in the name "Word of Faith" implies, this movement teaches that faith is a matter of what we say more than whom we trust or what truths we embrace and affirm in our hearts.
A favourite term in the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel movement is "positive confession." It refers to the teaching that words have creative power. What you say, Word of Faith teachers claim, determines everything that happens to you. Your confessions, especially the favours you demand of God, must all be stated positively and without wavering. Then God is required to answer. Thus God's ability to bless us supposedly hangs on our faith. James 4:13-16 clearly contradicts this teaching, "Come now, you who say, Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit. Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that. But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil."
Far from stressing the importance of wealth, the Bible warns against pursuing it. Believers, especially leaders in the church (1 Timothy 3:3), are to be free from the love of money (Hebrews 13:5). Love of money leads to all kinds of evil (1 Timothy 6:10). Jesus warned, "Beware and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions" (Luke 12:15). In sharp contrast to the Word Faith's gospel's emphasis on gaining money and possessions in this life, Jesus said "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal" (Matthew 6:19).
The irreconcilable contradiction between prosperity teaching gospel and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is best summed up in the words of Jesus in Matthew 6:24, "You cannot serve God and riches."
Make no mistake... Word of Faith teaching is decidedly unbiblical. It is not a denomination, and does not have a formal organization or hierarchy. Instead, it is a movement that is heavily influenced by a number of high-profile pastors and teachers such as Kenneth Hagin, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Paul and Jan Crouch, and Fred Price.
The Word of Faith/Prosperity movement grew out of the Pentecostal movement in the latter 20th century. Its founder was E. W. Kenyon, who studied the metaphysical New Thought teachings of Phineas Quimby. Mind science (where "name it claim it" originated) fit well with the emerging Pentecostal movement and its emphasis on the supernatural, so he combined them and created a peculiar mix of orthodox Christianity and mysticism. Kenneth Hagin in turn studied under E. W. Kenyon and made the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel movement what it is today. Although individual teachings range from completely heretical to completely ridiculous, what follows is the basic theology most Word of Faith teachers align themselves with.
At the heart of the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel movement is the belief in the "force of faith." It is believed words can be used to manipulate the faith-force, and thus actually create what they believe Scripture promises (health and wealth). Laws supposedly governing the faith-force are said to operate independently of God's sovereign will and that God Himself is subject to these laws.
From here, its theology just strays further and further from Scripture: In some extreme forms it even claims that God created human beings in as little gods... that before the fall, humans had the potential to call things into existence by using the faith-force. After the fall humans took on Satan's nature and lost the ability to call things into existence. In order to correct this situation, Jesus Christ gave up His divinity and became a man, died spiritually, took Satan's nature upon Himself, went to hell, was born-again, and rose from the dead with God's nature. After this, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to replicate the Incarnation in believers so they could become little gods as God had originally intended.
Following the natural progression of these teachings, as little gods we again have the ability to manipulate the faith-force and become prosperous in all areas of life. Illness, sin, and failure are the result of a lack of faith, and are remedied by confession - claiming God's promises for oneself into existence. Simply put, the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel movement exalts man to god-status and reduces God to man-status.
Needless to say, this is a false representation of what Christianity is all about. Obviously, Word of Faith teaching does not take into account what is found in Scripture. Personal revelation is highly relied upon in order to come up with such absurd beliefs, which is just one more thing counted unbiblical.
Countering Word of Faith/Prosperity teaching is a simple matter of reading the Bible. God alone is the Sovereign Creator of the Universe (Genesis 1:3; 1 Timothy 6:15), and does not need faith - -He is the object of faith (Mark 11:22; Hebrews 11:3). God is spirit, and does not have a physical body (John 4:24). Man was created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26, 27; 9:6), but this does not make him a little god nor divine. Only God has a divine nature (Galatians 4:8; Isaiah 1:6-11, 43:10, 44:6; Ezekiel 28:2; Psalms 8:6-8). Christ is Eternal, the Only Begotten Son, and the only incarnation of God (John 1:1, 2, 15; 1:14, 18; 3:16; 1 John 4:1). In Him dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9). By becoming a man Jesus gave up the glory of heaven but not His divinity (Philippians 2:6-7) though He did choose to withhold His power while walking the earth as man.
The Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel movement is deceiving countless people, causing them to grasp after a way of life and faith that is not biblical. Our hope is in the Lord, not in our own words, not even in our own faith (Psalm 33:20-22). Our faith comes from God in the first place (2 Peter 1:1), and is not something we create for ourselves. So, be wary of the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel movement, and any church that aligns itself with Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel teachings.
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googled
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I'm absolutely flattered by the contrast of attitudes. But I'm going to be patient with you...
In this thread, we're all quite sick and exhausted of the responses that are so shallow, and the fact they don't actually answer any of our questions or issues we pose...
And somehow Hillsingers can still claim they have deep theology.
I'll see...
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googled
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I agree.
Hence don't ever use that argument ever again.
If any hillsong person mentions that, "With so many people, they must be doing something right" then I'll rebuke them with your post.
Done ... end of story.
For hillsingers it is inspiring.
For others, it sounds the same. Thus its almost like a jazz person asking an R'n'B, which jazz song sounds better, the Autumn Leaves or Winter Smoke?
The R'n'B person will say, they both sound about the same.
HENCE:
Hillsong DOES NOT HAVE GREAT MUSIC.
For music to be Great, it would mean it needs to be accepted by all people of all genre of music.
Rather Hillsong has great Christian Rock Music for people whom like Christian Rock Music.
Therefore if someone said, Hillsong Music is Great... that statement is incorrect.
It's not bad but it's also not good. It's good Christian Rock, but horrible Christian Jazz because the genre is Christian Rock.
Are we happy with that statement?
You've said what it is not.
Can you say what it is ?
Why do they go for prosperity gospel so much? Why do our rewards have to be earthly? Couldn't they be heavenly? I think they are both , here on Earth as it is in heaven , A lot of the American prosperity Gospel I totally disagree with , but Christians using money to spread the word and help people is good , well according to scripture it is any way
Hope this helps
Paul walked around with no money at all. No home...
Christ was born in a poor family and had fish bring coins in for him
Christians in ancient times were the poorest.
They were slaves.
They never had any freedom or wealth to save up.
But the message was spread.
If they had no money, and the message was spread... doesn't this contradict your statement?
How much does it cost to spread the word.
Gav, if there are things that cost something in monetary terms, they can clearly be refined in accounting terms.
So how much does it cost these days to spread the word?
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Gavwalk
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Haha oh how i am glad you will be patient with me and that you are so gracious your worship haha this made me laugh thanks for that
im sorry but you cant dictate what i say and what i dont say , you may try and play that game on the forum but im sure it would be different in person
i say what i say and i make no apology for it ... if you dont like it , get over it opinions vary , many would disagree than agree witht hat , but i dont think that concerns you its deeper is it not?
what what is? be spcific please
where do you get this from? he was a carpenter who would have earned a good living if you look at the times and context , also he had a treasuerer namely judas who was stealing from it , and they didnt know this? i think you should re think this as i dont believe many were poor like you say , Paul was a tent make and thats how he got around the way he did at one time or another.
read above
.A lot , the world is a little bigger since Pauls day , he relied on things we cant now , i just say if people can finance the sporead of Gods word what is wrong with that ? i say anything that gets it out there God uses that for good
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In regards to Hillsong's music...
I guess the popularity and ARIA awards speak for themselves...Hillsong is liked by many around the world. Some people like the music, some don't. I personally listen to a variety of stuff at home, and tend to not listen to Hillsong too often. I am a musician, and i appreciate most kinds of music. Even some types that i don't particularly like listening to in my own time, i can still appreciate that others like it, and i can usually see why they like it.
But i love worshipping the Lord with Hillsong music at church. Some songs i like more than others. I like thinking about the words i'm singing, i love seeing the musicians so passionate, i love the atmosphere of people worshipping God freely.
I read that "Shout to the Lord" became quite a hit. It was in the book "The Church That I See...". If i can find the article on it, i'll post it here.
I guess the popularity and ARIA awards speak for themselves...Hillsong is liked by many around the world. Some people like the music, some don't. I personally listen to a variety of stuff at home, and tend to not listen to Hillsong too often. I am a musician, and i appreciate most kinds of music. Even some types that i don't particularly like listening to in my own time, i can still appreciate that others like it, and i can usually see why they like it.
But i love worshipping the Lord with Hillsong music at church. Some songs i like more than others. I like thinking about the words i'm singing, i love seeing the musicians so passionate, i love the atmosphere of people worshipping God freely.
I read that "Shout to the Lord" became quite a hit. It was in the book "The Church That I See...". If i can find the article on it, i'll post it here.
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Kazamataz
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Wow this thread has gotten pretty heated. does it really matter why people like Hillsong or not?
I attend a Christian City Church, i choose to worship there because i enjoy the music, the people are friendly and the teaching lines up with the bible. However that doesnt mean my church is any better than someone else's.
I belive the whole reason we have different styles of churches is because God wants to reach everybody.
we have alot of young people in our church and during worship we often have a mosh pit.
Now my grandma would hate that she would rather be in a church where people acted more serious hence why she attends an anglican church.
different churches appeal to different people. the style of church is not that important it really is the message that they are preaching. if what they are saying agrees wholly with the bible then it really doesnt matter how it's presented.
im yet to hear a Hillsongs sermon that doesnt line up with the bible.
I attend a Christian City Church, i choose to worship there because i enjoy the music, the people are friendly and the teaching lines up with the bible. However that doesnt mean my church is any better than someone else's.
I belive the whole reason we have different styles of churches is because God wants to reach everybody.
we have alot of young people in our church and during worship we often have a mosh pit.
Now my grandma would hate that she would rather be in a church where people acted more serious hence why she attends an anglican church.
different churches appeal to different people. the style of church is not that important it really is the message that they are preaching. if what they are saying agrees wholly with the bible then it really doesnt matter how it's presented.
im yet to hear a Hillsongs sermon that doesnt line up with the bible.
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MusicMelOU
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It's funny...I've been on this board for 2 and a half years now and ever since I've been here the Hillsong debate has gone on. I've visited Hillsong once and, yes, they did talk about giving quite a bit. I did meet some nice people there, though, who were on fire for the Lord so I do know that Hillsong is blessing the lives of some people. The question I am curious about is with all the money Hillsong receives in tithes and offerings, how much of it goes towards reaching the truly lost (not just lost people around Sydney and Australia but people in parts of the world where the Gospel has never been preached) as opposed to how much gets funneled back to go towards church members?
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Kazamataz
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Im not sure if it's the Same with Hillsong.
but i go to a CCC church and i know at Oxford Falls CCC every year you can get a copy of the budget. that shows exactly where all the money is going.
we do the same thing in my church. we're not anywhere near as big as those churches but it's good to be able to see where your money is going.
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Tenebrae
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Its when there is no finacial accountability that one should be concerned.......
I gave into my old church to fund the work of God, it wasnt so the Pastor could have his expensive suits, take trips round the world, for him and select others.......
They used to preach about how the tithe should always be given into the local church, and basically it was sinning to pay it else where..... I remeber one night before christymas a couple of years ago, I pulled over to help a couple whose car was on the side of the road. They were out of petrol and had a huge way to get home, werre trying to put ptrol into the tank but couldnt get it from the can to the car
Asked them if they could follow me to the nearest petrol station a couiple of hundred meters up the road and I would put some gas in their car. As it happened the only money I had in my account was my tithe money.
As we were talking at the gas station, it turned out the man had lost his job, and the woman had also just been laid off. The man was suposed to start another job later than week.......
According to my old church that was sinning becauise I didnt pay my tithe to church.....I seem to remeber Jesus saying something about feeding the hungry, and helping those in need
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Kazamataz
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i totally agree with you, im not so sure on this whole it's a sin to give your tithe anywhere else but the church.
i know people who have gone to put there tithe in the bucket and felt God was telling them not to.
this happend to my friend 3 sundays in a row and then on the forth sunday she met a couple who were pretty much in a similar situation as the people you met.
she really felt God was asking her to give her saved tithe money to them.
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Gavwalk
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Actually you can easily get a copy of Hillsongs budget and so on so i dont see any problem there, yes we talk about giving but I also do notice in the the NT it talks a lot about giving too
it is a part of Church but not the major part , i dont see the problem, i dont believe in tithing yet i go to Hillsong and the giving message doesnt bother me? why is that? most people i know that hate the message of giving dont like to part ways with their money unless it somehow helps them in some way i did say most not all and im not implying anyone on here is like that .FYI I have PMed Googled and as expected didnt get much response back
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Tenebrae
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Actually you can easily get a copy of Hillsongs budget and so on so i dont see any problem there, yes we talk about giving but I also do notice in the the NT it talks a lot about giving too
FYI I have PMed Googled and as expected didnt get much response back
Correct the new testament does talk alot about giving, however the operative word is giving, not tithing..... And there is a big difference between the two.You say that hillsong makes its budget avaliable to its church members, what would the process be if you, as a church member wanted to view that information. (BTW, not trying to trap you), my old church said the same thing, however none of the rank and file members could tell me how we could go about viewing the finacial information
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There is an open book policy at Hillsong. Basically, anyone can ask to see the financial information of the church.
Hillsong is audited by an independent auditing company, and produces a financial report each year, available to anyone who wants a copy.
Hey Gav, did you catch that sermon on the weekend about how important it is to wear expensive suits and live a luxurious lifestyle? Cos they're always preaching those sermons at our church hey.
Tee hee hee!
Brian answers a few questions being asked here, including financial information, in the link i posted at the top of this page. It's worth a read.
Hillsong is audited by an independent auditing company, and produces a financial report each year, available to anyone who wants a copy.
Hey Gav, did you catch that sermon on the weekend about how important it is to wear expensive suits and live a luxurious lifestyle? Cos they're always preaching those sermons at our church hey.
Tee hee hee!
Brian answers a few questions being asked here, including financial information, in the link i posted at the top of this page. It's worth a read.
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Gavwalk
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thats right i said giving not tithing
yes anyone can get the financials of course they arnt going to knock on your door the minute you ask for one but if you want one i could eaily get you a copy Yes yes i did , and i was the one that was allowed to put a gun to any head that didnt put money in the basket haha , im sure some people think we are like that , were you there at the 5pm? i looke for ya
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