Hillsong Church

Gavwalk · Jan 21, 2007

Hmmmm interesting what you say about the prayer of Jabez, i believe that one of the verses you were referring to was about the Pharasees praying out of pride not out of their heart , i spose if you look at it from a different perspective where it is a guide for words to pray , if your heart is right then i see no problem with it , then again God knows our thoughts and so forth so i would ask you what is the point of praying at all? Jesus has died for us and will bless us and knows our thoughts so what point is there?

Gavwalk · Jan 21, 2007

I spose also it says that we can ask anything and if it be in His will , will grant it . So if someone wants a house or to be healed or anything i see no harm in praying for it , im not into the prosperity gospel but we have to be careful in seeing something in a comment that isnt actually there , just implying isnt enough for me .However if you are blessed then you can be a blessing to a lot of people

KristianJ · Jan 21, 2007

Gavwalk said:
Hmmmm interesting what you say about the prayer of Jabez, i believe that one of the verses you were referring to was about the Pharasees praying out of pride not out of their heart , i spose if you look at it from a different perspective where it is a guide for words to pray , if your heart is right then i see no problem with it , then again God knows our thoughts and so forth so i would ask you what is the point of praying at all? Jesus has died for us and will bless us and knows our thoughts so what point is there?

Well, prayer's just one of the many ways in which we communicate with God - a part of a healthy walk with him. After all, if it wasn't necessary we'd not have passages such as Matthew 6.

So if you use it as a guide, I guess it shows that if you come to God with the right attitude and reverence then yes, there's no issue with it. However, I still can't subscribe to the "If he did it and got results, you can do it and get results as well" theory, because it negates God's will. Plus, the person who follows such a theory and finds him or herself at the same point 30 days later might be disillusioned and question God because the things asked for did not come.

Gavwalk said:
I spose also it says that we can ask anything and if it be in His will , will grant it . So if someone wants a house or to be healed or anything i see no harm in praying for it , im not into the prosperity gospel but we have to be careful in seeing something in a comment that isnt actually there , just implying isnt enough for me .However if you are blessed then you can be a blessing to a lot of people

For sure - I'm not going to disagree with that either. The will of God is what really matters, but as I implied before, I fear that people who pray this prayer negate the fact that God might not have the results that they are looking for, which brings the focus away from God and his providence to the person and that which they are seeking.

Anyway, we're getting a bit sidetracked so we can leave it be for now

Neenie1 · Jan 21, 2007

Personally I have nothing against them, but I am NOT their greatest fan either.

I like some of the earlier Geoff Bullock songs, but I DON"T like listening to Darlene Zcheck (sp?) I nickname her the "screecher" because she gets on my nerves.

The other thing I don't like is that a lot of the churches have their music all the time and churches like the one I go to seem to play Hillsong all the time, which drives me mad.

googled · Jan 22, 2007

Celtic Camel said:
Ok, you speak of fruit, as though these can't be seen in the people of Hillsong church...
What is the 'fruit'? Galatians 5:22-23 lists the Fruit of the Spirit being:
Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control

Are these the only fruits avaliable from the Holy spirit?

Hmmm... maybe the pastors are wrong when they say "God has infinite grace"
because from infinite grace come infinite fruit.

Oh and also please quote me, where I specifically referenced the lack of fruit with Hillsong.

You'll find theres context involved.

googled · Jan 22, 2007

Gavwalk said:
Interesting ...

This is good ,I see some people who Love this type of Church , some people who Dont agree with it no matter how right or outlandish their claims are , and then there is the haters that spot all the bad things but in their hate or bias cant see the good things , I think its healthy that people have their own opinion no matter how right or wrong or by the sounds of some of the posts misinformed they are , of course debating it also doesnt help because people will think what they want to think regardless . I just thank you for your thoughts and , although there are great things about my church there is also things I disagree with that I am trying to fix here as well . So peace to you all and it has been interesting looking at all these posts

I totally agree with your view. And likewise totally disagree with it. Because you guys do that to me ALWAYS.

Because I experienced the total opposite.

No matter how true my claims are, there are those which make up the majority of churches that cover their ears and pretend to be deaf whilst their brother suffers.

And later they accuse us of lying.

And plus they make it sound so positive.

But then again, I should pray and let God deal with you... let you know the truth one day because you refused to listen to the truth.

I'll concentrate on people who listen with their hearts

Just like Christ did for those that listened, and left those that did not fall into their own trap.

If you're serious about what you believe, step up and defend your church of the pain it has inflicted us. Make an apology that I've been waiting for 10 years to hear.

Don't pretend I was never there or invisible.

sherri · Jan 22, 2007

gavwalk said:
I think its healthy that people have their own opinion no matter how right or wrong or misinformed they are.......

um not trying to give you more things to answer in here then you have to, but how is having a wrong or a misinformed opinion healthy?? :scratch:

JonoRawker · Jan 22, 2007

I used to be a person that didn't like Hillsong too much. While I'm still not 100% about them, I do know that pretty much every sermon I've heard from Brian Houston or Christine Caine were really good. I've heard that they have some theology issues but I'm yet to see or hear anything that would cause me to totally despise them.
I've only been there once, but I've read Christine Caine's book "Youth Ministry for the 21st Century" and its brilliant. Also I've heard Brian on the radio and at Planetshakers back in 2002. That was during a time that I didn't think too highly of Hillsong or Brian and so I didn't get anything out of his sermons - but I bought all the sermons on CD and when I listen to it again (about 15 months later) I realise that it was a great sermon about believing in and trusting the entire word of God, not just your favourite parts. It was based mainly in the book of Job and also Proverbs which are actually my 2 favourite OT books!

Tenebrae · Jan 22, 2007

sherri said:
um not trying to give you more things to answer in here then you have to, but how is having a wrong or a misinformed opinion healthy??

wrong or misinformed in your opinion

Personally I'll stick with the facts

Hillsong is not all bad infact there are alot of things they do very well

However there are the bad parts as well which dont disaper no matter how much one sticks their head in the sand

Gavwalk · Jan 22, 2007

The other thing I don't like is that a lot of the churches have their music all the time and churches like the one I go to seem to play Hillsong all the time, which drives me mad.

But that isnt Hillsongs fault

I totally agree with your view. And likewise totally disagree with it. Because you guys do that to me ALWAYS.

Because I experienced the total opposite.

No matter how true my claims are, there are those which make up the majority of churches that cover their ears and pretend to be deaf whilst their brother suffers.

And later they accuse us of lying.

And plus they make it sound so positive.

But then again, I should pray and let God deal with you... let you know the truth one day because you refused to listen to the truth.

I'll concentrate on people who listen with their hearts

Just like Christ did for those that listened, and left those that did not fall into their own trap.

If you're serious about what you believe, step up and defend your church of the pain it has inflicted us. Make an apology that I've been waiting for 10 years to hear.

Don't pretend I was never there or invisible.

It seems to me that you are attacking me?? why is this? can you give me 1 example ? how is what you saying even substantial , it is quite generalising and judgemental , obviously you have been hurt by someone and thats not good, but holding onto something for 10 years and cant let it go is a bit unhealthy , what about forgiveness and not being offended? what do i need to defend? I am secure In Christ and in the Church i belong to , I see no reason to defend anything .

um not trying to give you more things to answer in here then you have to, but how is having a wrong or a misinformed opinion healthy??

I meant its good that people have opinions , that is healthy , if they have an opinion they should also be open to the fact that they may be wrong , people who dont have opinions and who are indifferent are dangerous to themselves i think

The end of the day of course anyone can get hurt anywhere , no Church has a pefect program or Theology but focus on different parts of God , thats how big God is , I have i been hurt at all at Hillsong? yes i have also at other Churches and denominations I have been to , at the end of the day we are responsible for ourselves and if we get hurt we can choose to take the offence or forgive and let God deal with them

eyesarebright · Jan 22, 2007

Thats right Gavwalk, it is not what has happened to use that is the issue, but how we react to it that is.
Whether we forgive and let go or not.

helenofbritain · Jan 22, 2007

I find the whole Hillsong concept to be an intriguing one...

Why do people like going to Church with the same number of people they go to the footy with?
Why do they like listening to music that all sounds the same?
Why do they seem to ride a wave of emotion as they relate to God - and when it doesn't feel good anymore, they stop?
Why do they go for prosperity gospel so much? Why do our rewards have to be earthly? Couldn't they be heavenly?

Promising prosperity alway worries me. Here are soime quotes from Jesus as to why:

Luke 18: 4 Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Matt 19: 21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." 22 When the young man heard this word, he went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

Matt 6: 2 "So whenever you give alms [tithe], do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be praised by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your alms may be done in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

I'm sure the Hillsong people are doing what they think is best - I just don't agree with them. And when we all die we'll find out what God rates, anyway!

Gavwalk · Jan 22, 2007

Why do people like going to Church with the same number of people they go to the footy with?

why do you see this as a problem?

Why do they like listening to music that all sounds the same?

you are Catholic right? i could ask the same thing to you

Why do they seem to ride a wave of emotion as they relate to God - and when it doesn't feel good anymore, they stop?

dont you think that is generalising just a little bit?

Why do they go for prosperity gospel so much? Why do our rewards have to be earthly? Couldn't they be heavenly?

hmmmm have you been to any of the churche services?why cant they be both?you saying God cant bless us while we are on earth?

I'm sure the Hillsong people are doing what they think is best - I just don't agree with them. And when we all die we'll find out what God rates, anyway!

Exactly , and im sure there is a lot of people that will be very shocked and surprised

helenofbritain · Jan 22, 2007

Gavwalk said:
why do you see this as a problem?

Makes making connections with people hard. As someone else said - if you don't sit next to the same person every week, and don't really talk to anyone afterwards, how do you feel like you're in a community, as opposed to a bunch of people?

Gavwalk said:
you are Catholic right? i could ask the same thing to you

Could you? I find there's much more variety in our music (and in my Anglican husband's parish also). We have up to around 700 years of music to fall back on, and it extends more than late 20th C popular musical composition in scope. I really find that if you've heard one Hillsong song you've heard them all. It's like listening to poor pop music, only Jesus gets mentioned occaisionally. But I'm a bit of a musical snob (did HSC music, been in choirs, orchestras, bands... I detest out-of-tune- singing, and like tunes to sound different to the last one, and whilst I'll listen to anything once, some things only get listened to once.) so I'll be more down on this tha other might.

Gavwalk said:
dont you think that is generalising just a little bit?

Well, maybe a little bit

But my husband and I have an interest in this sort of thing, and the 'retention' rates for Hillsong-type churches are 2-7 years, before many (not all) people either find a "new" church, or stop going altogether. Which is sad

Gavwalk said:
hmmmm have you been to any of the churche services?

Not physically. But one of my friends has pay tv and we sometimes watch the Christian channels... they are so fairy floss it's frightening, in my opinion. And there was no escaping the prosperity message there either. And the bands weren't very good.

But enough criticism already. Having a relationship with God is better than not having a relationship with God.

Gavwalk said:
Exactly , and im sure there is a lot of people that will be very shocked and surprised

But you won't be one of them, right?

Gavwalk · Jan 22, 2007

Makes making connections with people hard. As someone else said - if you don't sit next to the same person every week, and don't really talk to anyone afterwards, how do you feel like you're in a community, as opposed to a bunch of people?

i agree, however thats not how it is at Hillsong , there is heaps of community and i sit witht he same bunch of people nearly every week, we have heaps of programs where different people go out and do stuff after church

Could you? I find there's much more variety in our music (and in my Anglican husband's parish also). We have up to around 700 years of music to fall back on, and it extends more than late 20th C popular musical composition in scope. I really find that if you've heard one Hillsong song you've heard them all. It's like listening to poor pop music, only Jesus gets mentioned occaisionally. But I'm a bit of a musical snob (did HSC music, been in choirs, orchestras, bands... I detest out-of-tune- singing, and like tunes to sound different to the last one, and whilst I'll listen to anything once, some things only get listened to once.) so I'll be more down on this tha other might.

well that is your opinion , i do find old songs also out of date and the yuonger generations can relate more to more modern style of music as apposed to hymns , but then again thats only my opinion as well

Well, maybe a little bit But my husband and I have an interest in this sort of thing, and the 'retention' rates for Hillsong-type churches are 2-7 years, before many (not all) people either find a "new" church, or stop going altogether. Which is sad

hmmm where do you get your info from? although i do know the turnover is high, i have been there for 20 years and most of the people i socialise with at church would avergae 10 years

Not physically. But one of my friends has pay tv and we sometimes watch the Christian channels... they are so fairy floss it's frightening, in my opinion. And there was no escaping the prosperity message there either. And the bands weren't very good.

But enough criticism already. Having a relationship with God is better than not having a relationship with God.

hmmm so you havent been to the church in person just on TV? there is a BIG difference between them i must say

But you won't be one of them, right?

I dont think i will be, im not a critical person on any church , i tend to keep my opnions to myself but always look for the Good in everything , if i see something wrong in my sphere of influence i will change it but if i cant i will keep living for God and loving everyone

eyesarebright · Jan 22, 2007

There are different styles of churches and music like there are different styles of people......

Droobie · Jan 22, 2007

eyesarebright said:
There are different styles of churches and music like there are different styles of people......

That's a good point... what works/appeals for one person may not for another. Like that movie "Sister Act"... yes a bit extreme in example, but when the church changed it's style of music, it attracted the local community and attendance flourished.

I believe that God uses different churches to reach different groups of people. I can't imagine any church of any denomination doing well without God's blessing; and if a church is doing well, I would imagine that the devil would want to pull it down somehow.

Neenie1 · Jan 22, 2007

I'm not going to read this anymore. Couldn't be bothered really.

If you want to go to Hillsong church - then go.

Same as those who want to go to Catholic, Anglican, Baptist or any other denomination.

It is all the same God.

I've had enough of this.

googled · Jan 23, 2007

Gavwalk said:
why do you see this as a problem?

Because people worship football in large numbers.
If they worshipped football the way they worship God, is it wrong?

Mind you, I'm not saying this is hillsong. I'm just asking, is it wrong to worship God like football?

you are Catholic right? i could ask the same thing to you

dont you think that is generalising just a little bit?

When people refer to music as they all sound the same, gav, they don't literally mean they sound the same.

It means that theres one genre of music, and their mind only detects slight variations and hence would classify all the music to be alike.

Catholic music is very different. There are centuries of music, and each century has it's own genre and differences, in particular the latin, grammar, melody... it all varies depending on the era the music was created.

Now if you're saying that all catholic and anglican music sounds the same, then ... be warned, theres plenty of music experts around to rebuke you.

hmmmm have you been to any of the churche services?why cant they be both?you saying God cant bless us while we are on earth?

He did bless us on earth. By forgiving us, of our sins.

Why would we want anything more than that?

I've been arguing the same argument with a lot of Hillsong christians. They always say "Why can't we be blessed by God of possessions, otherwise how could God show his love for us" or "Why not? Why can't we be rich?"

Thats not an argument. And I ask them to provide New Testament Scriptures to back their case up. they bring up Solomon...the richest jewish king.

Exactly , and im sure there is a lot of people that will be very shocked and surprised

I'm hoping that sentence is neutral, because it really sounds as though you're favoring your church, whilst condeming the rest of us to hell.

googled · Jan 23, 2007

Gavwalk said:
i agree, however thats not how it is at Hillsong , there is heaps of community and i sit witht he same bunch of people nearly every week, we have heaps of programs where different people go out and do stuff after church

I've seen people change through Hillsong, so I guess thats not entirely bad.

But still, the pain they inflict on weaklings like myself... I'm still waiting that holy hug... too bad I never got it, nor will I ever get it.

well that is your opinion , i do find old songs also out of date and the yuonger generations can relate more to more modern style of music as apposed to hymns , but then again thats only my opinion as well

Well, New songs are disposable whist old songs are classical and antique.

Sure the new songs are new, but in Psyc classical music holds a lot more value in the mind than modern music.

So it's not true that old music is so outdated that no one listens to it. Infact if you have a look at a lot of modern songs, they have parts of classical music in it, because of it's strong foundation.

hmmm where do you get your info from? although i do know the turnover is high, i have been there for 20 years and most of the people i socialise with at church would avergae 10 years

So you hang around people who've been there for 10years or more... what about new people?

Surely the church is so large... I'm surprised you never mentioned any sophisticated system for greeting new comers and integrating them with a holy hug.

hmmm so you havent been to the church in person just on TV? there is a BIG difference between them i must say

I agree.
On TV you at least get to listen to the message.

At the church, you get escorted out by security guards.

I dont think i will be, im not a critical person on any church , i tend to keep my opnions to myself but always look for the Good in everything , if i see something wrong in my sphere of influence i will change it but if i cant i will keep living for God and loving everyone

No you don't.

You can't even admit the harm the church has done on my life.

Stop lying...lol

And stop making me laugh.... you know thats not true.....

As if you'd change.

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