>>NIether.. thouh both are good. BUt you must have faith in the sacrifie that He was for us. Applying HIs teachings to your life will do anyone good here on earth, but that will not save oyu, nor redeem your sins.
The point I was trying to make is that couch potato christians don't cut it. The phrase "Jesus is my savior" is not a ticket into heaven. Hilter called himself a "christian" at times too.
M>That's not quite what I meant. I meant we as a "WHOLE" can rise above our own petyness and selfishness. I do not believe we "rise above" one another, let alone God. I mean we rise above these selfish behaviors within ourselves, and we find inner peace.
>>Even if we were able to rise above such things, we would still be human..
We are only HUMAN as long as our SPIRIT inhabits this form. After that, we are simply children of God in SPIRIT.
>> still be sin ful by nature. And God will still see that. Finding inner peace isn't good enough either.
I agree. I've said that before. It is however an important step along the way.
M>When you use the word "paid", you make it sound like God is violent, and requires vengence in order to forgive. Is that really what you mean?
>>What I mean is that a sinful nature, which we all have, requires a price in order to have it... that price is death.
We need to talk about the nature of God here a while. Is God loving and forgiving? Is God merciful and kind? Can God forgive as we humans forgive, or must God be violent in order to forgive. I'm asking you ultimately about the nature of God. Do you believe God requires violence in order to forgive?
>>Without God, our death is that price..
Without God, there would be no "life" at all.
>>but with GOd, it was Jesus' dath that was that price. His death was not needed to cover His sins, bewcasue He did not have any, so His death then could cover our sins.
The problem I have with this belief system, is that your faith is predicated on some sort of belief that God is violent and must be appeased one way or the other. Either you die, or Jesus dies.
You are also placing your faith on the idea that Jesus was not a man as he said he was, that he never made mistakes, and never learned from his mistakes. I just don't think that's the case here. I think Jesus was quite human. I can accept a "flawed" and "human" Messiah. Your faith leaves no room for that possibility. If it turns out Jesus learned as we learn, would this destroy your faith?
>>He paid the wage that sins demands of us, however, part of that payment for our sins requires us to have faith that He did so, and why.
Why did anything have to be paid to begin with? Why can't God forgive like the rest of us? I'm ultimately asking you about the nature of God. If we mere humans can forgive without violence, why can't God? Isn't God greater than us?
M>Only God can really "save" us, but inner peace is a crucial part of that equation. If I have inner peace, then even things like the Trade Center bombing can be dealt with rationally and logically.
>>So long as we agree that inner peace does not save you...
Yet without inner peace, real salvation is not possible.
M>I think perhaps I was too cryptic in my comment. Why do you believe that God cannot forgive sin like us mere mortals? Why must there be vengence involved?
>>And you missed what I said. God can forgive sins. Man cannot... only the action of the sin. Only God has the power to forgive sin.
You mean only God can forgive us internally. I can't forgive *FOR* God, God must forgive for himself. That I understand.
What I'm asking you though, is why God can't simply forgive sin like the rest of us. We forgive each other all the time without violence and destruction. Can't God do something as simple as this simple act of kindness?
>>And, He will only forgive sin if we acknowledge that He is the one that can do it.
I think we are all aware that only God can forgive us for himself. I can't *MAKE* God forgive me, but I know he will, if I change my behaviors and ask for forgiveness. Jesus promised us that God would forgive us as we have forgiven others.
>>And the way that He does it is thorugh His grace.
Yes, but grace is not predicated upon violence. It comes from within. It is an act of kindness, of love.
>>.. but in order to recieve that grace, we must have faith in Him that He will save us.
And I do. I believe he will save us all. Some will fight it, some will take longer than others to find this salvation, but I do not believe any force is powerful enough to stand between God and what he wants. I believe God loves all his children, and loves us even when we make mistakes.
M>Ok, but suppose they eventually do that part. What then is the point of continuing to eternally torment them? I'm curious how you and Pastor Carl explain this.
>>For us on earth.. Faith is key. Faith is Fellowship with God, unto salvation. Once a person is judged not to have had faith in God, while on earth, that soul will be sent to Hell. At that moment the person will know the truth, however, faith a that point is no longer required. Faith unto salvation is pointless at this point, but that is what God wants from us.
Assuming that this was the case for a moment, you still have not answered my question. What point would there be in perpetual torment at this point? Why keep them around at all?
>>He wants us to trust in HIm.
I *TRUST* that God loves us *ALL* evidently somewhat more than you do. I trust God would never be cruel or inhumane. The notion of perpetual torment without hope is cruel and inhumane.
If someone, who previously had no "faith" as you seem to think is required, suddenly understood their sin, and had faith that a loving Jesus would ultimately save them, would their faith be misguided?
>>He wants us to trust Him that having faith in Him, now, will save us from that eternal punishment.
What motivates God to perpetually torment anyone, even his enemies? Didn't Jesus tell us to love our enemies, and turn the other cheek?
>>No punishment.. no aco****ability.
You have punishment without accountability going on now. You would dish out infinite punishment for finite sin, without regard to the feelings of the tormented. Is this justice or simply sadism? How is that Justice? How is that merciful? How is that kind and loving?
>>You say.. suppose they eventually do that part... they have to doit, before they stand before God. They have to do it, before judgment is carried out. There is no parole, or lessened sentence with God. Judgement is final, and permenent. And, the nature of s soul after judgement is permanent.
Why in the face of an eternity of change would any judgement from God be "eternal"? When a lost soul repents, what purpose could there be in continueing to torment them? If I did that to you as your jailer, would I be worthy of the kingdom myself?
>>In the end, everyone will know who God is, and know wether they were right or wrong... but by then it will be too late to change their fate.
It will be too late to change the past, but we always choose what we do here and now. It is never too late to change, NOW. When someone does change NOW, why continue to torment them for all time? What purpose can it serve to do this?
M>But what happens when their hearts do change?
>>That can only happen here on earth,
Why? Why wouldn't the finally comprehend their mistake after death? Why can't souls change their heart after death?
>>while they have no reason to chage their hearts, but trust in God.
You seem to be missing my point. I trust that God has a plan to redeem us all. I trust he's powerful enough to do that. I trust it will take a long time for some, but in the end, all beings will know the love of God. I trust God.
I do not understand why God or anyone else would want to torment souls endlessly. I do understand why God would want justice. These two ideas (eternal torment & justice) are mutually exclusive. You cannot eternally torment someone for a trillion years for the sins of a single lifetime and call that "justice".
M
oes God have no mercy upon them even still?
>>And God will not have mercy on those ho are sent into eternal Judgement. By the time they are judged.. there is no mercy left for them.. only Judgement for thier sin.
And by who's authority do you make such a claim? How do you know God's mercy and love is "limited"?
>>Gods mercy is here and now, not when ever you want it.
If you think about that some, you just contradicted yourself.
M>What is the point of that?
>>The point is that we will strive to have a relationship and faith in GOd based upon love and trust...
I meant what's the point of endless torment when a soul has learned their lesson already. What point is there in tormenting them further?
M>If he loved us enough to sacrifice his mortal flesh for our salvation
>>Jesus did more than that when He died. He did somehting none of us could ever do.. sacrifce HIs perfect nature. That is the real key. Not that He physically died, but that He spiritually died.
I don't understand what you mean by he "spiritually died". I can comprehend what you mean by him "spritual sufferring" while here on earth, but I do not believe Jesus ever "spiritually died".
>> That is why it is oimportant for Jesus to be sinless... so that He could sacrifice what we never had to sacrifice...
It seems to me that it's important for your believe system for this to be the case, but that isn't a requirement of mine. I don't expect Jesus to pay for my sins. He's done plenty already, and left me a legacy of love and a path to salvation. I know God loved him deeply for his actions and didn't turn around and punish him further after his physical death. What kind of nature do you think God has anyway?
>>LIfe.. spiritual Life.
Spiritual "life" is based upon taping into the flow of the Holy Spirit. Jesus explained how to do that. In that way, his teachings point the way to spiritual life.
>>And by doing so, and by then defeating death, and gaining back that Spiritual Life,
I guess I just don't comprehend what you are saying. First you say he was spiritual dead, and then he became spiritually back to life. This from a man you say was also God, unified with God. How and why does God kill himself "spiritually"? For what purpose? This really doesn't make any sense to me I'm afraid.
>>He opened a door for us to enter though Him that we too could have out spiritual death taken away, and gain spiritual Life.
I fully agree with that statement, but evidently not the way you mean it. He did open the door by handing us a living example of selfless service to God, and unconditional love and forgiveness. By applying these principals, we find eternal life.
M>Forgiveness is about compassion and mercy. It is a selfless act of grace, where none is deserved. That's what forgiveness is all about.
>>To God it is much more than that. It is changing the Spiritual nature of a person.. from death to life.
Specifically how does that happen? How does internal change occur?
>>Clensing thei souls form sin that has been apart of them since birth. Only God ca do that. And GOd has to do that, in order for you to exist in HIs presence in HEaven. And if you don't have faith that He will.. then He will not,
But I do have faith he will, I just don't have "faith" in your particular dogma package as a whole. Does that disqualify me?
>>becasue He gave us the choice to accept of reject that gift of salvation.
From your perspective though, it's a little like "do it or else" don't you think? Some choice.
>>And, to those that reject it, they get cast out of His presecne for eternity, becasue of the sinful nature that will forever be apart of them.
I still am not sure you grasp the concept of eternity yet. It's a really long time. A single human lifetime is so very short compared to eternity. It's shorter for instance than a blink of an eye compared to a whole human lifetime. There is no adequate way to express eternity really.
In the whole of this sea of eternity, you are not allowing for a single soul to find salvation after death. This is both illogical and impossible. If there is one thing you can tell about God from the world around us, it's that God values diversity and freedom. The ideas of eternal torment for bad dogma just don't add up.