Jesus is the SON not the Father.

[LouisBooth]

"How do you figure eternally and mercilessly punishing souls for the whole of eternity, over the sins of a single lifetime, is somehow "Holy"? How do you figure that utter lack of compassion and mercy is "Holy" anyway? "

I have explained it to you several times but here we go again. God set rules, we broke them, penity is hell. Because God is Holy he is just so the penitly must be paid, but he is also merciful so he paid the penilty for us through Christ's blood. Now if you accept reconiciation through the blood of Christ then you are made perfect in God's sight because Jesus took away your sins, if you refused the covering of Christ's blood then you refuse God's mercy and say to him, I want the penilty for myself and you go to hell. Its not God's choice to send you there but he won't force his mercy on you. There you have it, God is Holy.

"How do you figure eternally and mercilessly punishing souls for the whole of eternity, over the sins of a single lifetime"

Because God is PERFECT and even ONE sin will keep you from being with him. If you lived two seconds and sinned and weren't justified by Christ's blood you would go to hell. Imperfection can't go to heaven. You sin, you're imperfect you can't go to heaven..get it? The only way is to be covered and made perfect again by christ's blood.

 

[Michael]

Your answer makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You claim God is both "Holy", and merciless. These are mutually exclusive ideas.

 

[LouisBooth]

my answer makes perfect sence, you just refuse to see it. so your only atempt at a reply is, you don't make sence I expalined it perfectly, you reject God's mercy and he won't force it on you. Holy and mercy are by no means mutally exclusive :lol: what a funny concept.

 

[ZoneChaos]

It's not mercy however to suggest that God torments souls for the whole of time. Where is the mercy in that?

For the love of Pete, man. I just said in my previous post There is no mercy in that. That torment is Judgement. Pay attention.

One choice affects the whole of time?

Exactly.

How is this even remotely logical or possible?

How is it not?

Beings change with time.

BUt God doe snot. The way to salvation does not. Wether or not people change, they must choose yes to salvation, instead of no. They only get one life time on earth to do so.

You are suggesting that once you die, that God's mercy ends for the whole of time

Yes I am.

How can you even suggest that?

It is apointed of ma to die once. After that, man is held acountable for his sin. At this time man is eaith judged guilty of his sin for not accepting the redemption offered to him while man was alive, and is sent to eternal torment, or man is forgiven of his sin and deemed worthy of God, and is spared that torment becasue man accepted the redemption offered to him.

So explain to me again how eternal torment without even the hope of redemption is somehow merciful?

The mercy lies in that we are given the hope of redemption before the judgement of eternal torment.

How is it justice to torment someone for trillion of years for the sins of say 40? How is that justice?

I hav etold you Michale, they are not being condemend to die for their acts of sinning, they are already condemend to die becasue they are sinful. It has nothig to do with how many times they sinned, or how long they lived as a sinner. It only matters wether o nor thay remain sinful, or ask God to redeem them before judgement which comes after death.

This reminds me of the quote Archon had in his signature about a protection racket kind of mentality. "Either you believe like we tell you or burn in hell for eternity."

That is a very accurate statement. But know that a person should not beleive becasue we say they should, but becasue they want to.

Ok, but you are suggesting that God *STOPS* loving *SOME* of his children, and not only abandons them, but eternally torments them no less! How is that merciful or just?

It isn't merciful. It is Just. At their judegment, God will tell them He never new them. They wil be forgotten, as our sins will be forgotten of us.

Even still ZC, you are trying to peddle the notion that God turn maniacal at someone's death and decides to torment them for the whole of time for bad dogma. How can this possibly be considered "justice", or "merciful"?

God does not decide who gets torment. We do, by either choosing Him or the torment. Also, yes it is by bad Dogma, that people cna be led to eternal torment. You are a prime example of a person who thinks he knows the truth, but becasue of nad Dogma, or at the very least, a lack of the correct Dogma, will end up in eternal torment, despite the warnings God has tried to give you.

 

[ZoneChaos]

You claim God is both "Holy", and merciless. These are mutually exclusive ideas.

You are mis quoting us, Michale.. somehting I do not tolerate very well. God is not without mercy, and you know we have said as much. I have showed you where God;'s mercy is, and yet you claim I have said God is without mercy. Either i am a liar or you are. Which is it? Have i not said God has mercy for those that Beleive in Him?

God has mercy, but God is also Judge. And, He will judge those,m and their sentence will be fair. That sentece is Death. Death is teh consequence for sin. Death is permenent, not of the body but of the soul. The wages of sin are not death for a little while, or try again until you get it right. Wages are death period. That is a fair and just sentence for sin.

 

[Michael]

>>my answer makes perfect sence, you just refuse to see it. so your only atempt at a reply is, you don't make sence I expalined it perfectly, you reject God's mercy and he won't force it on you. Holy and mercy are by no means mutally exclusive what a funny concept.

Oh I get it now. God is perfectly willing to mercilessly torment souls for the whole of time, but God sure won't force any love or mercy down your throat eh?

 

[Michael]

>>For the love of Pete, man. I just said in my previous post There is no mercy in that. That torment is Judgement. Pay attention.

You keep dancing around the issue here. You insist that God will torment souls for the whole of time! Yes or no? Where is the mercy in such a decision?

M>One choice affects the whole of time?

>>Exactly.

And no matter how they might repent after death, God just keeps tormenting away eh? Do angels in heaven boil the oil to pour over them too? Who keep them tormented properly anyway? Are there a special force of angels who get off on S&M that just dish out the torment, day after countless day with no possiblity for mercy?

M>How is this even remotely logical or possible?

>>How is it not?

Your concepts don't even come close to the loving Christ I know.

M>Beings change with time.

>>BUt God doe snot.

How do you know that by the way? Doesn't God have any fun?

>>The way to salvation does not. Wether or not people change, they must choose yes to salvation, instead of no. They only get one life time on earth to do so.

Even if this were true, look at legistics of implimenting this eternal torment you seem hell bent on dishing out to everyone you disagree with.

Who'd be keeping them in line? Who's going to torment them for the whole of time? Are you going to sign up for that job? When one of them looks you in the eye and pleads for mercy, claiming they understand their failures, will you beat them some more anyway?

M>You are suggesting that once you die, that God's mercy ends for the whole of time

>>Yes I am.

And how does this square with Jesus telling us to love our enemy and love others as he has loved us?

M>How can you even suggest that?

>>It is apointed of ma to die once. After that, man is held acountable for his sin. At this time man is eaith judged guilty of his sin for not accepting the redemption offered to him while man was alive, and is sent to eternal torment, or man is forgiven of his sin and deemed worthy of God, and is spared that torment becasue man accepted the redemption offered to him.

The concept of gehenna, never implied "eternal". PERIOD. This came much later when the church replaced Jewish afterlife ideas with pagan notions from greek mythology.

M>So explain to me again how eternal torment without even the hope of redemption is somehow merciful?

>>The mercy lies in that we are given the hope of redemption before the judgement of eternal torment.

Fine, let's move forward 100 years now. Where is the mercy in continuing to punish these souls for longer than they even lived?

M>is it justice to torment someone for trillion of years for the sins of say 40? How is that justice?

>>I hav etold you Michale, they are not being condemend to die for their acts of sinning, they are already condemend to die becasue they are sinful.

You aren't condemning them to death, you're condemning them to *ETERNAL* torment!

>>It has nothig to do with how many times they sinned, or how long they lived as a sinner. It only matters wether o nor thay remain sinful, or ask God to redeem them before judgement which comes after death.

So what happens when these souls no longer remain sinful? Torment them another 1000 years anyway? Boil them in oil? Burn their flesh?

M>This reminds me of the quote Archon had in his signature about a protection racket kind of mentality. "Either you believe like we tell you or burn in hell for eternity."

>>That is a very accurate statement. But know that a person should not beleive becasue we say they should, but becasue they want to.

It's a fear based religion to be sure.

M>Ok, but you are suggesting that God *STOPS* loving *SOME* of his children, and not only abandons them, but eternally torments them no less! How is that merciful or just?

>>It isn't merciful. It is Just.

That is an oxymoron.

>>At their judegment, God will tell them He never new them. They wil be forgotten, as our sins will be forgotten of us.

But you aren't saying they'll simply be forgotten. You are saying they'll be tormented for all eternity! Where is the justice in that?

M>Even still ZC, you are trying to peddle the notion that God turn maniacal at someone's death and decides to torment them for the whole of time for bad dogma. How can this possibly be considered "justice", or "merciful"?

>>God does not decide who gets torment. We do, by either choosing Him or the torment.

But he must decide who to torment in your reality. I mean God puts us here, gives us this set of life challanges and then makes a *FINAL* decision about who to help, and who to torment for the whole of time. You can hit me, but I decide how to react. Jesus suggested I turn the other cheek. You are suggesting Jesus mercilessly torments them forever.

>>Also, yes it is by bad Dogma, that people cna be led to eternal torment.

So by no fault of their own except God made them gullible, they'll face eternal torment? Is that a thing a loving parent would do to their child when they make mistakes?

>>You are a prime example of a person who thinks he knows the truth, but becasue of nad Dogma, or at the very least, a lack of the correct Dogma, will end up in eternal torment, despite the warnings God has tried to give you.

Whereas I on the other hand would say that even though you are a prime example of someone very young that thinks they have it all figured out already, there is still hope for you......eternally.

 

[Michael]

>>You are mis quoting us, Michale.. somehting I do not tolerate very well. God is not without mercy, and you know we have said as much. I have showed you where God;'s mercy is, and yet you claim I have said God is without mercy. Either i am a liar or you are. Which is it? Have i not said God has mercy for those that Beleive in Him?

You are quite a contradiction. You *CLAIM* God has mercy, but only for SOME of his children. For others, you claim God has not pity, no mercy, no desire to help them. Not only that, but God goes out of his way to torment these lost souls for all of time. You can't have it both ways ZC. If God is the least bit merciful, eternal torment is not possible.

>>God has mercy, but God is also Judge. And, He will judge those,m and their sentence will be fair.

Fair compared to what?

>>That sentece is Death. Death is teh consequence for sin. Death is permenent, not of the body but of the soul. The wages of sin are not death for a little while, or try again until you get it right. Wages are death period. That is a fair and just sentence for sin.

But you aren't even suggesting the sentence is death. You are claiming the sentense is active torment for the whole of time! What is fair about that?

 

[ZoneChaos]

You keep dancing around the issue here. You insist that God will torment souls for the whole of time! Yes or no? Where is the mercy in such a decision?

God did not decide this torment. Man did. And God, being Holy, has no reason to save us from that, but by His mercy and Grace He ha sgiven us a way of salvation despite ourselves.

And no matter how they might repent after death, God just keeps tormenting away eh?

Correct. No second chances. Death, then Judgement.

Do angels in heaven boil the oil to pour over them too?

Michael, why do you think that when I say soulod will be tormented in Hell, it is the will of God? That is is God choosing them to suffer? It isn't.

Your concepts don't even come close to the loving Christ I know.

Been trying to tell you that for some time now. You do not know the Christ or God that I do.

How do you know that by the way?

God has said as much.

Doesn't God have any fun?

I am sure he does.

Who'd be keeping them in line?

I do not understand this question. Why would there need to be anyone keeping them "in line"?

Who's going to torment them for the whole of time?

The torment is their seperation from God.

And how does this square with Jesus telling us to love our enemy and love others as he has loved us?

Perfectly in my book.

The concept of gehenna, never implied "eternal". PERIOD. This came much later when the church replaced Jewish afterlife ideas with pagan notions from greek mythology.

Blah blah blah? What are you going on about here?

Where is the mercy in continuing to punish these souls for longer than they even lived?

Change the word mercy in your quesion to justice and I can answer it: The justice is that they deserve it.

You aren't condemning them to death, you're condemning them to *ETERNAL* torment!

That eternal torment is death: seperation form God. An eternal death. An existance of being dead and aware of death and seperation from Him who gives life.

So what happens when these souls no longer remain sinful? Torment them another 1000 years anyway? Boil them in oil? Burn their flesh?

If the souls is redeemed befre judgement, then God forgives.. if not... eternal torment.

It's a fear based religion to be sure.

It is only fear baed if I do not love my God. I do.

That is an oxymoron.

I suggest you look up oxymoron.

But you aren't saying they'll simply be forgotten. You are saying they'll be tormented for all eternity! Where is the justice in that?

The justic ein it is that the punishment fits the crime.

But he must decide who to torment in your reality. I mean God puts us here, gives us this set of life challanges and then makes a *FINAL* decision about who to help, and who to torment for the whole of time.

WRONG! Howmant times must I say this: we make that choice Michael.

So by no fault of their own except God made them gullible, they'll face eternal torment?

God didn't make thek gullible.

Whereas I on the other hand would say that even though you are a prime example of someone very young that thinks they have it all figured out already, there is still hope for you......eternally.

So now you discredit me by my age? So I am 25 years old..so what.. at least I have it figured out. You want to discredit me? fine. The gloves are off. Your opinions are biased, and ill informed. You are selfish, and arrogant, accepting only what fits your mold of the truth, which is not of God, but of Satan. you look to yourself for answers instaed og God. You spread lies and deciet and a false gospel, Michael. You can say all you want, but the fact remains you are headed to Hell in a humanistic, universalist new age handbasket.

 

[Michael]

>>God did not decide this torment. Man did.

Huh? Who's going to stick around in this boiling oil and burning flesh intentionally?

>>And God, being Holy, has no reason to save us from that, but by His mercy and Grace He ha sgiven us a way of salvation despite ourselves.

Oh, God has no reason to save anyone from eternal torment? Ever hear of mercy?

M>And no matter how they might repent after death, God just keeps tormenting away eh?

>>Correct. No second chances. Death, then Judgement.

So God just sets them up on a schedule of endless torment. First we boil them in oil, next we burn their flesh, lather rinse repeat? The point of this nonsense?

M o angels in heaven boil the oil to pour over them too?

>>Michael, why do you think that when I say soulod will be tormented in Hell, it is the will of God?

I don't! I think it's the most rediculace thing I've heard in fact.

>>That is is God choosing them to suffer? It isn't.

Well who holds their feet to fire? Who's going to stay in this little eternal dungeon of endless torment intentionally?

M>Your concepts don't even come close to the loving Christ I know.

>>Been trying to tell you that for some time now. You do not know the Christ or God that I do.

Yours version seems to be rather sadistic. The Jesus I follow said love your enemy, as he has loved us. You seem intent on suggesting this same person endlessly torments souls. It pretty clear one of us is wrong.

M>How do you know that by the way?

>>God has said as much.

When and where, or are you referring to this bible thingy again?

M>Who'd be keeping them in line?

>>I do not understand this question. Why would there need to be anyone keeping them "in line"?

Who's going to keep them in hell, and continue to burn their flesh day in and day out? Who's going to do the dirty work and ignore their pleas for help?

M>Who's going to torment them for the whole of time?

>>The torment is their seperation from God.

Ah, so this is a "humane" type of endless torture that only includes utter abandonment?

M>And how does this square with Jesus telling us to love our enemy and love others as he has loved us?

>>Perfectly in my book.

You have a rather strange book.

M>The concept of gehenna, never implied "eternal". PERIOD. This came much later when the church replaced Jewish afterlife ideas with pagan notions from greek mythology.

>>Blah blah blah? What are you going on about here?

I'm simply noting to you that the meaning of hell has nothing to do with the notions of gehenna which Jesus spoke of. Eternal torment is *NOT* what Christ was talking about when he used the term gehenna. Gehenna in Judaism implied nothing of the kind.

M>Where is the mercy in continuing to punish these souls for longer than they even lived?

>>Change the word mercy in your quesion to justice and I can answer it: The justice is that they deserve it.

Who deserves endless, cruel, merciless torment? Do you really think a loving father would do that to any of their children ZC?

M>You aren't condemning them to death, you're condemning them to *ETERNAL* torment!

>>That eternal torment is death:

Death is simply death, the end of existence. Nothing exists after death, including pain. You aren't suggesting that. You are trying to suggest God goes on mercilessly tormenting souls for the whole of time!

>>seperation form God.

This indeed is our own doing, but again, you are insisting that God ingores pleas for help. Why would a loving parent do that?

>>An eternal death. An existance of being dead and aware of death and seperation from Him who gives life.

Again, you've mixed impossible ideas. Death is death. It doesn't imply "existence" in pain. Which are you insinuating God does to souls? Simply let them die in peace or continue tormenting them?

M>So what happens when these souls no longer remain sinful? Torment them another 1000 years anyway? Boil them in oil? Burn their flesh?

>>If the souls is redeemed befre judgement, then God forgives.. if not... eternal torment.

So tell me about this eternal torment. How does it work exactly. God hands you a flesh form, dips you in boiling oil until you pass out in pain and then repeats the process? This process continues for thousands of years?

M>It's a fear based religion to be sure.

>>It is only fear baed if I do not love my God. I do.

You worded that in a very interesting way. I have nothing to fear unless I don't believe *YOUR* God. This sounds like Bin Laden too. He doesn't like *YOUR* God. He's convinced it's you that will be endlessly tormented after he's done killing you. It's this "your" God, "my" God stuff that's for the birds!

Why in the world you would insist God endlessly torments Muslims for their "faith" is beyond me. Why you'd believe God endlessly and ruthlessly torments souls over bad dogma is an utter mystery to me. Jesus said love our enemy. Why would he do this to his?

M>That is an oxymoron.

>>I suggest you look up oxymoron.

I suggest you do that. You use a lot of them. You mix impossible ideas like God is merciful and loving while he endlessly boils souls in oil. This is utterly rediculace!

>>But you aren't saying they'll simply be forgotten. You are saying they'll be tormented for all eternity! Where is the justice in that?

>>The justic ein it is that the punishment fits the crime.

Infinite, ruthless torment does not fit any crime I'm aware of. Jesus even forgave his own crucifiers. What's left?

M>But he must decide who to torment in your reality. I mean God puts us here, gives us this set of life challanges and then makes a *FINAL* decision about who to help, and who to torment for the whole of time.

>>WRONG! Howmant times must I say this: we make that choice Michael.

Nobody boils themself in oil ZC. You don't want to address the problem here. The problem here is the mechanics of endlessly tormenting souls. Are you going to be responsible for keeping souls in Hell and making sure their good and punished? Are you going to listen to them scream in agony and plea for help and ignore them? Is this what Jesus suggested we do to the least of his brotheren?

M>So by no fault of their own except God made them gullible, they'll face eternal torment?

>>God didn't make thek gullible.

Sure he did. He is our creator is he not? He did allow for different faiths to exist on this planet. How's a person to know which religion is right and which is wrong. What if you'd been born in Saudi Arabia. Can you say for certain you wouldn't be a Muslim right now, equally convinced your religions is right and Christianity is wrong?

M>Whereas I on the other hand would say that even though you are a prime example of someone very young that thinks they have it all figured out already, there is still hope for you......eternally.

>>So now you discredit me by my age?

No, simply noting it.

>>So I am 25 years old..so what.. at least I have it figured out. You want to discredit me? fine. The gloves are off.

I beg your pardon? You've been comparing me to the devil for months. This is glove on behaviour?

>>Your opinions are biased, and ill informed. You are selfish, and arrogant, accepting only what fits your mold of the truth, which is not of God, but of Satan.

Gee, I wonder if Jesus will judge you as you have judged me? There's not really much there worth responding to, and not much you haven't already accused me of before.

You might note that I'm describing Love, whereas you are suggesting killing children is God's will. I'll take my chances when I face God that God is indeed loving. Will you feel as comfortable calling him a murderer of children?

>>you look to yourself for answers instaed og God.

I do not. I look to the LIVING WORD OF GOD. You won't find that in any book.

>>You spread lies and deciet and a false gospel, Michael.

Blah, blah, blah, blah. When your arguements don't hold up, you immediately reach for the smear campaign comparing me to satan, calling me a liar, etc, etc. You are becoming more that a little predicable. How about addressing the issues themselves and getting off your hell and damnation soap box. Maybe you'll actually learn something.

>>You can say all you want, but the fact remains you are headed to Hell in a humanistic, universalist new age handbasket.

When you grow up a bit, maybe you'll realize how rediculace that sounds. Maybe not. Either way, I have no fear of God. I trust the love of God unconditionally.

 

[ZoneChaos]

Huh? Who's going to stick around in this boiling oil and burning flesh intentionally?

Alot of people will.. when they reject God. There are any people today that even knowing ly wish to go to hell instead of accept God as their Lord.

Oh, God has no reason to save anyone from eternal torment? Ever hear of mercy?

No God has no reason to save us. We are not worth it. Only by His love and mercy does He do so. But we ourselves are not worthy of it.

So God just sets them up on a schedule of endless torment. First we boil them in oil, next we burn their flesh, lather rinse repeat? The point of this nonsense?[/quot]

Well, I am not sure where you are getting the "oil" or "flesh burning" schedules from. But as far as eternal torment equating to being without the presence of God... The punishment is eternal.

I don't! I think it's the most rediculace thing I've heard in

Then stop saying it si. I have never said it was God's will.. and oyu are the only othe rone in this point of conversation.. so what you are saying had to come from somewhere.

Well who holds their feet to fire? Who's going to stay in this little eternal dungeon of endless torment intentionally?

All who reject God. And they will be locked there, never to be released from it.

Yours version seems to be rather sadistic. The Jesus I follow said love your enemy, as he has loved us. You seem intent on suggesting this same person endlessly torments souls. It pretty clear one of us is wrong.

Sadistic only in your eyes according to your limited understanding of the character and nature of God. And, for the last time I have never said God torments anything.

When and where, or are you referring to this bible thingy again?

Bible thinigy, and what God has confirmed to me personally.

Who's going to keep them in hell, and continue to burn their flesh day in and day out? Who's going to do the dirty work and ignore their pleas for help?

No one but themselves. They will be locked there, with no way to get out, and forgotten.

You have a rather strange book.

This is true.

I'm simply noting to you that the meaning of hell has nothing to do with the notions of gehenna which Jesus spoke of. Eternal torment is *NOT* what Christ was talking about when he used the term gehenna. Gehenna in Judaism implied nothing of the kind.

Ok.

Who deserves endless, cruel, merciless torment?

Every man who has ever lived.

Do you really think a loving father would do that to any of their children ZC?

No.

Death is simply death, the end of existence.

In correct. Deathis the absence of life. For the soul, the state of death is an eternal absence from Life (God). BU tthe sould will be fully aware of that death existance.

This indeed is our own doing, but again, you are insisting that God ingores pleas for help. Why would a loving parent do that?

He wil not ignore any until Judgement is passed.

Why in the world you would insist God endlessly torments Muslims for their "faith" is beyond me. Why you'd believe God endlessly and ruthlessly torments souls over bad dogma is an utter mystery to me. Jesus said love our enemy. Why would he do this to his?

They won't be punished for their faith, they will be punished for their lack of it.

Sure he did. He is our creator is he not?

If God intentionally made themthis way, then God's creation is does not meet its original deisng. Thus God is impefect. If you beleive this, then fine but it is wrong. God gave everyman the ability to know Him.

Infinite, ruthless torment does not fit any crime I'm aware of.

You are not aware of what sin is.

I beg your pardon?

Yo will get no such pardon from me. I will not let your ideas slide on this board.

Gee, I wonder if Jesus will judge you as you have judged me? There's not really much there worth responding to, and not much you haven't already accused me of before.

I am not judging you. I am stating fact. God has already judged your behavior in His word.

Blah, blah, blah, blah. When your arguements don't hold up, you immediately reach for the smear campaign comparing me to satan, calling me a liar, etc, etc. You are becoming more that a little predicable. How about addressing the issues themselves and getting off your hell and damnation soap box. Maybe you'll actually learn something.

My arguemnts, in your eyes, wil never hold up. Why are you still even posting here MIchael? You will not sway my mind nor any other CHristian here. You are not seeking the truth, you are preaching whta you think it the tuth. Go away.

When you grow up a bit, maybe you'll realize how rediculace that sounds. Maybe not. Either way, I have no fear of God. I trust the love of God unconditionally.

You tell me to grow up.. so I assume that oyu think you ar ebetter than be becasue you are older? I have seen new Christians with more wisdom about who God is than you have. You do not fear God? Good for you, but you will.

 

[Michael]

>>Alot of people will.. when they reject God. There are any people today that even knowing ly wish to go to hell instead of accept God as their Lord.

Nobody picks eternal torment intentionally! You can't excape the notion that God would have to "decide" to intentionally torment souls for the whole of time. Why would a loving father do that to *ANY* of his children?

M>Oh, God has no reason to save anyone from eternal torment? Ever hear of mercy?

>>No God has no reason to save us. We are not worth it.

Are we not children on God, made in his image? Gee, you act like we have not value to God. That surely isn't the way Jesus characterized our value to God.

>>Only by His love and mercy does He do so. But we ourselves are not worthy of it.

But we're worth eternal torment? I fail to grasp that logic. Why even bother?

M>So God just sets them up on a schedule of endless torment. First we boil them in oil, next we burn their flesh, lather rinse repeat? The point of this nonsense?

>>Your previous response>>Well, I am not sure where you are getting the "oil" or "flesh burning" schedules from. But as far as eternal torment equating to being without the presence of God... The punishment is eternal.

M>I don't! I think it's the most rediculace thing I've heard in

>>Then stop saying it si. I have never said it was God's will..

You are ducking the question again. It can *ONLY* happen *IF* it is God's will. What's the purpose of eternal torment if there can be no hope of redemption? That's the question you can't and won't address.

>>and oyu are the only othe rone in this point of conversation.. so what you are saying had to come from somewhere.

You are intentionally ducking the issues, not me. You just don't seem to want to accept the logistical aspects of eternal torment.

M>Well who holds their feet to fire? Who's going to stay in this little eternal dungeon of endless torment intentionally?

>>All who reject God. And they will be locked there, never to be released from it.

For what purpose? Where is the mercy and love in this act?

M>Yours version seems to be rather sadistic. The Jesus I follow said love your enemy, as he has loved us. You seem intent on suggesting this same person endlessly torments souls. It pretty clear one of us is wrong.

>>Sadistic only in your eyes according to your limited understanding of the character and nature of God.

Sadistic by any definition of the word! If there can be no hope of redemption what is the point? Answer that question now please instead of ducking it again!

>>And, for the last time I have never said God torments anything.

Yes, you most certainly have. You believe in hell. That is by definition eternal torment. Yes or no?

M>When and where, or are you referring to this bible thingy again?

>>Bible thinigy, and what God has confirmed to me personally.

Ditto. One of us isn't hearing things very well. John said the spririt of truth was love. Maybe we ought to use that piece of information to sort out who's right here?

M>Who's going to keep them in hell, and continue to burn their flesh day in and day out? Who's going to do the dirty work and ignore their pleas for help?

>>No one but themselves. They will be locked there, with no way to get out, and forgotten.

Why? For what reason?

M>I'm simply noting to you that the meaning of hell has nothing to do with the notions of gehenna which Jesus spoke of. Eternal torment is *NOT* what Christ was talking about when he used the term gehenna. Gehenna in Judaism implied nothing of the kind.

>>Ok.

If you accept that the meaning of the term has changed over the years, then why do you still believe in fairytales?

M>Who deserves endless, cruel, merciless torment?

>>Every man who has ever lived.

How is that even remotely logical? A soul doesn't seem to have any choices in your book. They are created out of thin air, and either go to heaven or face eternal torment over bad dogma. What kind of sadistic game is that? It's not like God starts everyone off with exactly the same opportunities either!

M o you really think a loving father would do that to any of their children ZC?

>>No.

Then why do you believe in hell?

M eath is simply death, the end of existence.

>>In correct. Deathis the absence of life. For the soul, the state of death is an eternal absence from Life (God). BU tthe sould will be fully aware of that death existance.

You seem to be confusing the notion of "living" as in "consciousness" with the idea of happiness or sorrow.

M>This indeed is our own doing, but again, you are insisting that God ingores pleas for help. Why would a loving parent do that?

>>He wil not ignore any until Judgement is passed.

But what loving father never forgives their children for their failures in life? Why would God abandon any of his children for the whole of eternity? Why create them at all? Why keep them around to be endlessly and cruely tormented for all time? What is the point?

M>Why in the world you would insist God endlessly torments Muslims for their "faith" is beyond me. Why you'd believe God endlessly and ruthlessly torments souls over bad dogma is an utter mystery to me. Jesus said love our enemy. Why would he do this to his?

>>They won't be punished for their faith, they will be punished for their lack of it.

Think about what you are saying, and become a Muslim for a moment. If you abandon your "faith" in Allah, God cannot forgive you according to Islam. You are now asking everyone on planet earth to abandon "their" religion in favor of "yours", but according to "their" religion, it's they that have it right? How's a rational person to decide which religion is wrong? What are the odds of you actually abandoning Christianity in favor of Islam? What happens if they were right all along? Would you feel it's fair to torment you for the whole of time because of your faith?

M>(gullibility)Sure he did. He is our creator is he not?

>>If God intentionally made themthis way, then God's creation is does not meet its original deisng. Thus God is impefect. If you beleive this, then fine but it is wrong. God gave everyman the ability to know Him.

You missed my point. All religions in their vanity claim to be the "right" religion. How is anyone to know for sure, which of the hundreds of religions out there, really represent the will of God? Are only Catholics saved?

M>Infinite, ruthless torment does not fit any crime I'm aware of.

>>You are not aware of what sin is.

I'd say I'm rather an expert on it.

M>I beg your pardon?

>>Yo will get no such pardon from me. I will not let your ideas slide on this board.

Comparing me to satan though is more than a little below the belt. You know my "religion". You might call it misguided if you don't happen to like it, but comparing me to satan is nothing but a cheap shot and you know it. Jesus told us not to judge one another. How about living up to that ok?

M>Gee, I wonder if Jesus will judge you as you have judged me? There's not really much there worth responding to, and not much you haven't already accused me of before.

>>I am not judging you. I am stating fact. God has already judged your behavior in His word.

No, you are stating *OPINION*. Only God knows all the *FACTS*. You have your "religion", I have mine. Mine is ultimately the simplest of religions. It's based on love. I'm not sure what you are peddling exactly.

M>Blah, blah, blah, blah. When your arguements don't hold up, you immediately reach for the smear campaign comparing me to satan, calling me a liar, etc, etc. You are becoming more that a little predicable. How about addressing the issues themselves and getting off your hell and damnation soap box. Maybe you'll actually learn something.

>>My arguemnts, in your eyes, wil never hold up.

Have of them are utterly illogical. I ought to know, I had those very same beliefs myself once. I've had a bit longer to study the religions of the planet.

>>Why are you still even posting here MIchael? You will not sway my mind nor any other CHristian here. You are not seeking the truth, you are preaching whta you think it the tuth. Go away.

The last time I checked, this was a free country. You are free to ban me, if you find my posts offensive. If you can't handle a little religious debate though, maybe it's you that shouldn't post here.

M>When you grow up a bit, maybe you'll realize how rediculace that sounds. Maybe not. Either way, I have no fear of God. I trust the love of God unconditionally.

>>You tell me to grow up.. so I assume that oyu think you ar ebetter than be becasue you are older?

No, but I do think I've had longer to think about these issues, and work them through with God. Better and worse are meaningless terms. We are all children of the same God. Concepts of better and worse are pure human vanity, and utterly meaningless to God. We are all God's beloved children.

>> I have seen new Christians with more wisdom about who God is than you have. You do not fear God? Good for you, but you will.

You've missed what I've been saying for a long time now. My relationship with God is based purely on love and trust. You seem to feel God will torment me for all time for believing God is not genocidal killer, and for distrusting "religions". I know God's love. I know God would never do that. You can enjoy your fear based religion all you want, but don't expect your threats of eternal torment to sway me in the slightest.

 

[ZoneChaos]

Nobody picks eternal torment intentionally!

Beleive what you want, but I have witnessed this first hand. I hav ebeen at the death bed of men who reject God, and welcome Hell as they die. Very scary and very sad.

You can't excape the notion that God would have to "decide" to intentionally torment souls for the whole of time.

I do not have to escape it. God does not decide who does or does not spend eternity in eternal torment.

Why would a loving father do that to *ANY* of his children?

As i have said before, I do not think He would.

Are we not children on God, made in his image? Gee, you act like we have not value to God.

We are selves are not able to be in the prsence of God.. It is not possible. Our sin stops that from happening. The only way, is through God's love, mercy, and grace, that He washes our sins away, but that washing and redemption is contingent on one thing: We must desire Him to save us form our sin, and we must do so before judgement. That is the only way we are made pure, and the only way we will escape eternal damnation.

But we're worth eternal torment?

Yes.. we are deserving of it by our nature.

I fail to grasp that logic.

That much is obvious.

Why even bother?

Why bother what?

It can *ONLY* happen *IF* it is God's will.

God's will for us is to accept our destiniy as Saints. But He gave us the will to either accept or reject Him. God's will is not determining in this case, as far as out salvation is concerned. Our salvation is upon us.. we are held accountable unto it, not God.

What's the purpose of eternal torment if there can be no hope of redemption?

Wha is the purpose of Punishment? What is the purpose of Judgement? There is no redemption because redemption, after judgement is not part of the deal. The sentance is eternal seperation form God.

That's the question you can't and won't address.

I have many times, I just have not given the answer you want me to give, in order to propigate your lies.

For what purpose?

For the ourpose of rejecting god, and being a sinner.

If there can be no hope of redemption what is the point?

I never said there was no hope of redemption, Michael.

Yes, you most certainly have. You believe in hell. That is by definition eternal torment. Yes or no?

Yes, I beleive in eternal torment... no I do not beleive God torments.

Ditto. One of us isn't hearing things very well. John said the spririt of truth was love. Maybe we ought to use that piece of information to sort out who's right here?

I acept the Bible as true, you do not.

How is that even remotely logical?

Man is inherantly sinful.

A soul doesn't seem to have any choices in your book.

A soul has one choice: to accept or reject God. It is your beleif that a soul has no choice... that a soul need not make an effort to accept God.

They are created out of thin air, and either go to heaven or face eternal torment over bad dogma.

Not over bad dogma.. over accepting or rejecting God.

It's not like God starts everyone off with exactly the same opportunities either!

Toward salvation He does: we start out siners on our way to hell, and God gives all of us a chance to change that and accept him before we die.

Then why do you believe in hell?

Why do I have to accept God torments to accept that Hell exists? Hell is for those who reject God, and are judged accordingly.

You seem to be confusing the notion of "living" as in "consciousness" with the idea of happiness or sorrow.

You have confused "living" with "existance".

Why create them at all?

So that they would choose to Love Him and not reject Him.

Think about what you are saying, and become a Muslim for a moment.

That's not gonna happen.

If you abandon your "faith" in Allah, God cannot forgive you according to Islam.

Wrong. If you abandom your faith in Allah, it is Allah who cna not forgive oyu.. but then.. Allah can't forgive anyone of anything anyway.

You are now asking everyone on planet earth to abandon "their" religion in favor of "yours", but according to "their" religion, it's they that have it right?

That is what I ask, and pray for everyday.. that they cease in false worship and come to the truth of who God is.

How's a rational person to decide which religion is wrong?

Stop trying to figure it out on their own, and talk to the Holy Spirit, and pray to God.

What are the odds of you actually abandoning Christianity in favor of Islam?

0%

What happens if they were right all along?

They won't becasue they aren't.

Would you feel it's fair to torment you for the whole of time because of your faith?

If my faith was not in God.. yes.

How is anyone to know for sure, which of the hundreds of religions out there, really represent the will of God?

By challenging every aspect of that religion ans see how it measures up to God.

I'd say I'm rather an expert on it.

Maybe commiting sin, but not the nature of sin.

Comparing me to satan though is more than a little below the belt. You know my "religion". You might call it misguided if you don't happen to like it, but comparing me to satan is nothing but a cheap shot and you know it. Jesus told us not to judge one another. How about living up to that ok?

I never compared you to Satan. I beleive Satan influences you without you knowing it.

The last time I checked, this was a free country. You are free to ban me, if you find my posts offensive.

Thank You.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Oh I get it now. God is perfectly willing to mercilessly torment souls for the whole of time, but God sure won't force any love or mercy down your throat eh? "

If they reject his mercy yup, because THEY REJECT THAT MERCY..SO WHAT'S LEFT? no mercy You don't seem it get it micehal. You can't force love on someone. It doesn't work that way. God won't force it on you so by rejecting him you are saying I want to pay for my sins and be apart from you because of my sin because I reject your mercy. God simply says, okay, have it your way then. You just refuse to accept that answer because its 1. right 2. its very logical and 3. you can't refute it.

 

[PrinceJeff]

Amen, Louis. Max Lucado says it best in one of his books, "God does not send people to hell; He simply honors their choice."

 

[Michael]

>>Amen, Louis. Max Lucado says it best in one of his books, "God does not send people to hell; He simply honors their choice."

Honors their choice? Funny, I don't recall anyone choosing eternal torment consciously.

How do you explain this idea that God will willingly give you the freedom to confuse yourself with the hundreds of religions on this planet, and then condemn you to hell for guessing wrong? Why would God *ALLOW* us to go to hell, yet *CHOOSE* never to help? Where is the justice and mercy in this?

 

[LouisBooth]

"Honors their choice? Funny, I don't recall anyone choosing eternal torment consciously."

Yup, they do, they refuse the saving grace of Christ's blood.

"How do you explain this idea that God will willingly give you the freedom to confuse yourself with the hundreds of religions on this planet, and then condemn you to hell for guessing wrong? "

Well it is written that nature attests to God's exsistance and then the HS does the rest I'm just here to help, read the bible it will tell ya. Everyone knows it and is given the choice at least once in their life.

"Why would God *ALLOW* us to go to hell, yet *CHOOSE* never to help? Where is the justice and mercy in this? "

well *ahem* he very much choose to help Jesus came, remember?

 

[Michael]

M>Honors their choice? Funny, I don't recall anyone choosing eternal torment consciously."

>>Yup, they do, they refuse the saving grace of Christ's blood.

No. That's not what they do. They choose to honor God through a particular "religion", a specific set of beliefs handed them by their parents for the most part. You are the one claiming God mercilessly torments them for having faith in their "faith", and honoring God the wrong way.

M>"How do you explain this idea that God will willingly give you the freedom to confuse yourself with the hundreds of religions on this planet, and then condemn you to hell for guessing wrong? "

>>Well it is written that nature attests to God's exsistance and then the HS does the rest I'm just here to help, read the bible it will tell ya. Everyone knows it and is given the choice at least once in their life.

You keep saying things that are absolutely false. More than 50% of this planet, since the time of Christ, lived and died on planet earth having never heard of Jesus or his ministry. By your notions they are all doomed. How "fair" of God! *NOT*!

M>"Why would God *ALLOW* us to go to hell, yet *CHOOSE* never to help? Where is the justice and mercy in this? "

>>well *ahem* he very much choose to help Jesus came, remember?

You missed the question evidently. Why would God allow anyone to go to hell for honoring him the wrong way? What is the sense in that?

 

[ZoneChaos]

No. That's not what they do. They choose to honor God through a particular "religion", a specific set of beliefs handed them by their parents for the most part. You are the one claiming God mercilessly torments them for having faith in their "faith", and honoring God the wrong way.

Diferent religions aside for the moment.. do you not know of anyone who flatly rejects God? Wether they think he exsits or not? If oyu do, then the possibility is open that poeple will reject Him.

We then can talk about differing religions an false gods.

More than 50% of this planet, since the time of Christ, lived and died on planet earth having never heard of Jesus or his ministry.

Yo do not need to know about Jesus ministry to know God, nor to know you are a sinner. It ceretainly helps, but the most important thing to salvation is admitting you are a siner and repenting of those sins.

Why would God allow anyone to go to hell for honoring him the wrong way?

Umm.. so ther eis no difference between right and wrong? I mean, that certianly does follow with what you beleive about enlightnment unto salvation... The key word in your statement is "wrong".

What is the sense in that?

The sense is you must love God. To love God you must know God.

 

[Michael]

> iferent religions aside for the moment.. do you not know of anyone who flatly rejects God?

Well, I know a lot of athiests from these boards, Archon and DA being resident around here. I'm not sure they so much reject God, as refuse to believe however.

No "theist" I'm aware of rejects God. They reject different religions from their own, but they honor God.

>Wether they think he exsits or not? If oyu do, then the possibility is open that poeple will reject Him.

What exactly do you mean by "reject"? If you mean does an "atheist" reject God, probably not. They simply don't believe one exists. If they met her however, I'd bet money they'd change their mind.

M>More than 50% of this planet, since the time of Christ, lived and died on planet earth having never heard of Jesus or his ministry.

>>Yo do not need to know about Jesus ministry to know God, nor to know you are a sinner.

Well, one point of agreement anyway!

>>It ceretainly helps, but the most important thing to salvation is admitting you are a siner and repenting of those sins.

I guess I'm saved then.

M>Why would God allow anyone to go to hell for honoring him the wrong way?

>>Umm.. so ther eis no difference between right and wrong?

Sure there is. But does bad dogma really warrant eternal torment? Doesn't heaven have any schools?

>>I mean, that certianly does follow with what you beleive about enlightnment unto salvation... The key word in your statement is "wrong".

So what? If I love God, but I get some of the details wrong, why would God return my love with violence? Don't you think I could learn the truth if God taught me the truth?

M>What is the sense in that?

>>The sense is you must love God. To love God you must know God.

Every devout Hindu or Muslim I know loves God. They may not share your belief systems, but they love God none the less. Why would God return this love with violence rathan than patient understanding?