>>Alot of people will.. when they reject God. There are any people today that even knowing ly wish to go to hell instead of accept God as their Lord.
Nobody picks eternal torment intentionally! You can't excape the notion that God would have to "decide" to intentionally torment souls for the whole of time. Why would a loving father do that to *ANY* of his children?
M>Oh, God has no reason to save anyone from eternal torment? Ever hear of mercy?
>>No God has no reason to save us. We are not worth it.
Are we not children on God, made in his image? Gee, you act like we have not value to God. That surely isn't the way Jesus characterized our value to God.
>>Only by His love and mercy does He do so. But we ourselves are not worthy of it.
But we're worth eternal torment? I fail to grasp that logic. Why even bother?
M>So God just sets them up on a schedule of endless torment. First we boil them in oil, next we burn their flesh, lather rinse repeat? The point of this nonsense?
>>Your previous response>>Well, I am not sure where you are getting the "oil" or "flesh burning" schedules from. But as far as eternal torment equating to being without the presence of God... The punishment is eternal.
M>I don't! I think it's the most rediculace thing I've heard in
>>Then stop saying it si. I have never said it was God's will..
You are ducking the question again. It can *ONLY* happen *IF* it is God's will. What's the purpose of eternal torment if there can be no hope of redemption? That's the question you can't and won't address.
>>and oyu are the only othe rone in this point of conversation.. so what you are saying had to come from somewhere.
You are intentionally ducking the issues, not me. You just don't seem to want to accept the logistical aspects of eternal torment.
M>Well who holds their feet to fire? Who's going to stay in this little eternal dungeon of endless torment intentionally?
>>All who reject God. And they will be locked there, never to be released from it.
For what purpose? Where is the mercy and love in this act?
M>Yours version seems to be rather sadistic. The Jesus I follow said love your enemy, as he has loved us. You seem intent on suggesting this same person endlessly torments souls. It pretty clear one of us is wrong.
>>Sadistic only in your eyes according to your limited understanding of the character and nature of God.
Sadistic by any definition of the word! If there can be no hope of redemption what is the point? Answer that question now please instead of ducking it again!
>>And, for the last time I have never said God torments anything.
Yes, you most certainly have. You believe in hell. That is by definition eternal torment. Yes or no?
M>When and where, or are you referring to this bible thingy again?
>>Bible thinigy, and what God has confirmed to me personally.
Ditto. One of us isn't hearing things very well. John said the spririt of truth was love. Maybe we ought to use that piece of information to sort out who's right here?
M>Who's going to keep them in hell, and continue to burn their flesh day in and day out? Who's going to do the dirty work and ignore their pleas for help?
>>No one but themselves. They will be locked there, with no way to get out, and forgotten.
Why? For what reason?
M>I'm simply noting to you that the meaning of hell has nothing to do with the notions of gehenna which Jesus spoke of. Eternal torment is *NOT* what Christ was talking about when he used the term gehenna. Gehenna in Judaism implied nothing of the kind.
>>Ok.
If you accept that the meaning of the term has changed over the years, then why do you still believe in fairytales?
M>Who deserves endless, cruel, merciless torment?
>>Every man who has ever lived.
How is that even remotely logical? A soul doesn't seem to have any choices in your book. They are created out of thin air, and either go to heaven or face eternal torment over bad dogma. What kind of sadistic game is that? It's not like God starts everyone off with exactly the same opportunities either!
M
o you really think a loving father would do that to any of their children ZC?
>>No.
Then why do you believe in hell?
M
eath is simply death, the end of existence.
>>In correct. Deathis the absence of life. For the soul, the state of death is an eternal absence from Life (God). BU tthe sould will be fully aware of that death existance.
You seem to be confusing the notion of "living" as in "consciousness" with the idea of happiness or sorrow.
M>This indeed is our own doing, but again, you are insisting that God ingores pleas for help. Why would a loving parent do that?
>>He wil not ignore any until Judgement is passed.
But what loving father never forgives their children for their failures in life? Why would God abandon any of his children for the whole of eternity? Why create them at all? Why keep them around to be endlessly and cruely tormented for all time? What is the point?
M>Why in the world you would insist God endlessly torments Muslims for their "faith" is beyond me. Why you'd believe God endlessly and ruthlessly torments souls over bad dogma is an utter mystery to me. Jesus said love our enemy. Why would he do this to his?
>>They won't be punished for their faith, they will be punished for their lack of it.
Think about what you are saying, and become a Muslim for a moment. If you abandon your "faith" in Allah, God cannot forgive you according to Islam. You are now asking everyone on planet earth to abandon "their" religion in favor of "yours", but according to "their" religion, it's they that have it right? How's a rational person to decide which religion is wrong? What are the odds of you actually abandoning Christianity in favor of Islam? What happens if they were right all along? Would you feel it's fair to torment you for the whole of time because of your faith?
M>(gullibility)Sure he did. He is our creator is he not?
>>If God intentionally made themthis way, then God's creation is does not meet its original deisng. Thus God is impefect. If you beleive this, then fine but it is wrong. God gave everyman the ability to know Him.
You missed my point. All religions in their vanity claim to be the "right" religion. How is anyone to know for sure, which of the hundreds of religions out there, really represent the will of God? Are only Catholics saved?
M>Infinite, ruthless torment does not fit any crime I'm aware of.
>>You are not aware of what sin is.
I'd say I'm rather an expert on it.
M>I beg your pardon?
>>Yo will get no such pardon from me. I will not let your ideas slide on this board.
Comparing me to satan though is more than a little below the belt. You know my "religion". You might call it misguided if you don't happen to like it, but comparing me to satan is nothing but a cheap shot and you know it. Jesus told us not to judge one another. How about living up to that ok?
M>Gee, I wonder if Jesus will judge you as you have judged me? There's not really much there worth responding to, and not much you haven't already accused me of before.
>>I am not judging you. I am stating fact. God has already judged your behavior in His word.
No, you are stating *OPINION*. Only God knows all the *FACTS*. You have your "religion", I have mine. Mine is ultimately the simplest of religions. It's based on love. I'm not sure what you are peddling exactly.
M>Blah, blah, blah, blah. When your arguements don't hold up, you immediately reach for the smear campaign comparing me to satan, calling me a liar, etc, etc. You are becoming more that a little predicable. How about addressing the issues themselves and getting off your hell and damnation soap box. Maybe you'll actually learn something.
>>My arguemnts, in your eyes, wil never hold up.
Have of them are utterly illogical. I ought to know, I had those very same beliefs myself once. I've had a bit longer to study the religions of the planet.
>>Why are you still even posting here MIchael? You will not sway my mind nor any other CHristian here. You are not seeking the truth, you are preaching whta you think it the tuth. Go away.
The last time I checked, this was a free country. You are free to ban me, if you find my posts offensive. If you can't handle a little religious debate though, maybe it's you that shouldn't post here.
M>When you grow up a bit, maybe you'll realize how rediculace that sounds. Maybe not. Either way, I have no fear of God. I trust the love of God unconditionally.
>>You tell me to grow up.. so I assume that oyu think you ar ebetter than be becasue you are older?
No, but I do think I've had longer to think about these issues, and work them through with God. Better and worse are meaningless terms. We are all children of the same God. Concepts of better and worse are pure human vanity, and utterly meaningless to God. We are all God's beloved children.
>> I have seen new Christians with more wisdom about who God is than you have. You do not fear God? Good for you, but you will.
You've missed what I've been saying for a long time now. My relationship with God is based purely on love and trust. You seem to feel God will torment me for all time for believing God is not genocidal killer, and for distrusting "religions". I know God's love. I know God would never do that. You can enjoy your fear based religion all you want, but don't expect your threats of eternal torment to sway me in the slightest.