Jesus is the SON not the Father.

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ZoneChaos

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M>More than 50% of this planet, since the time of Christ, lived and died on planet earth having never heard of Jesus or his ministry.

>>Yo do not need to know about Jesus ministry to know God, nor to know you are a sinner.

Well, one point of agreement anyway!
So why argue against that point of agreement?

Doesn't heaven have any schools?

This was a joke, right?

Every devout Hindu or Muslim I know loves God. They may not share your belief systems, but they love God none the less. Why would God return this love with violence rathan than patient understanding?
]So they know God? Both of them? Even though the claim to know a differetmGod.. somewho they know the same? You see the problem? If oyu know God... You know that if someoenelse has a different idea about the God you know, then they do not know God.
 
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LouisBooth

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"No. That's not what they do. "

Umm..yes they do :lol:

"You are the one claiming God mercilessly torments them for having faith in their "faith", and honoring God the wrong way."

Nope, I tell them you can't work you way to heaven unless you're sinless. All your good deeds amount to squat if you have sinned. So if you have sinned you need to find another way because you can't make up for a sin.

"More than 50% of this planet, since the time of Christ, lived and died on planet earth having never heard of Jesus or his ministry. By your notions they are all doomed. How "fair" of God! *NOT*!"

Umm..if you wanna talk numbers you're way off. The population then compared to now is more like 1% to 99% after christ. But it says even nature testifies to God ;) read the bible and you will see they all have their chance one way or another.

"Why would God allow anyone to go to hell for honoring him the wrong way? "

Because isn't not about how much you honor God, its about your sin. If you sin its game over. You can't work off a sin, you can't save yourself from it either. The ONLY way is to have someone take your place that has not sinned, christ did this, so through his blood you are saved, that's the only way. I really don't think you understand the concept of what sin is Micheal. You can't work it off. Its like loosing an arm. You're never gonna get your arm back no matter how hard you try.
 
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Michael

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M:D oesn't heaven have any schools?

>>This was a joke, right?

No. I was a serious question. Humans seem to think it's necessary for God to eternally torment someone over bad dogma. Wouldn't sending them to school be a whole lot easier, let alone more humane?

M>Every devout Hindu or Muslim I know loves God. They may not share your belief systems, but they love God none the less. Why would God return this love with violence rathan than patient understanding?

>>So they know God? Both of them? Even though the claim to know a differetmGod.. somewho they know the same? You see the problem? If oyu know God... You know that if someoenelse has a different idea about the God you know, then they do not know God.

Sure they know God. They also carry a lot of baggage in their belief system based on the "religion" handed to them at birth. The fact that any two people might have different belief systems about who God is doesn't mean there are many gods.
 
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ZoneChaos

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The fact that any two people might have different belief systems about who God is doesn't mean there are many gods.

Why do you do that? I did not say there ARE many gods. I agree with you.. there is only one real God.

"different belief system about who God is"... no mater who you are, believing who God is is far different from knowing who God is. And If I know who God is, and someone else knows who God is, and that knowldge differs, one of us does not know God. Regardless of who is right or wrong in their knowledge, one of the gods known is not the One true God.
 
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Michael

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>>Why do you do that? I did not say there ARE many gods. I agree with you.. there is only one real God.

Well, you are the one saying the worship a different God. If there is only one God, and they worship God, they must worship the same God you and I worship. They might call her something different, they might ascribe her with different characteristics, but in the end, they are all praying to the same God.

>>"different belief system about who God is"... no mater who you are, believing who God is is far different from knowing who God is. And If I know who God is, and someone else knows who God is, and that knowldge differs, one of us does not know God. Regardless of who is right or wrong in their knowledge, one of the gods known is not the One true God.

One of the belief systems about *THE SAME GOD* is simply flawed. If there is only one God, there is no other God for them to pray to.
 
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ZoneChaos

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MIchael... I know what you are trying to convey. That all religions do worship the saem God. You need this to be true to justify what oyu believe... but if you ask any religion, such as Christianity, Muslim, Judaism, Buddism, etc.. Do [insert other religion here] worship the saem God you do... they will say no.

You say God is a God of love (I agree by the way).. but in reality, as you present it, Love is just an attribute as well. God is not a God OF anything. God is just God. If someone came to you and said, God is Hate.. God is Evil. Would you agree that they are worshipping the same God that you do?
 
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Michael

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>>MIchael... I know what you are trying to convey. That all religions do worship the saem God.

Whew, finally! :)

>>You need this to be true to justify what oyu believe... but if you ask any religion, such as Christianity, Muslim, Judaism, Buddism, etc.. Do [insert other religion here] worship the saem God you do... they will say no.

If you phrased the question exactly that way, you might get than answer. If you asked if they believed God had the qualities I ascribe to her, they'd also probably say no. It depends on how you phrase your question.

I don't need to you accept this point to "justify" my beliefs. I don't care if you don't accept my beliefs. It's ok. I'm not suggesting God is going to eternally torment you for honoring him a different way either. As long as you love God, you'll be fine as I see it.

>>You say God is a God of love (I agree by the way).. but in reality, as you present it, Love is just an attribute as well. God is not a God OF anything. God is just God. If someone came to you and said, God is Hate.. God is Evil. Would you agree that they are worshipping the same God that you do?

I would say they are "misinformed" about the attributes of God, but ultimately only ONE God has the power to answer prayers. If a Hindu child loves God with their whole heart, but does not believe Jesus to be greater than Krishna, who am I to condemn them to eternal damnation for it? Is a loving God really going to eternally condemn someone over bad dogma or simply teach them the truth? If you believe God to be loving, then how does eternal torment instead of "education" make any sense at all?
 
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Michael

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>>If someone came to you and said, God is Hate.. God is Evil. Would you agree that they are worshipping the same God that you do?

I would say that they are mentally ill and need help. I would refer them to John where he explained how to tell the difference between truth and fiction when he said that the spirit of truth is love for God is love. I would point out to them that Jesus loved even his mortal enemies enough to forgive them all their sins. Love brings unity and peace.

Hate and greed and selfishness lead to destruction.
 
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Michael

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>>Unfortunatly that's not so, God won't can't let you into heaven if you have sin on you.

Peter at the perly gates speaking to a to sinner:

"Ooops, sorry dude, your a little dusty there. You'll have to step over there and be eternally tormented now for whole of time cause we haven't got a clue how to actually love our enemies or turn the other cheek here! Hell no, this is heaven! Get out!"
 
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ZoneChaos

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"Ooops, sorry dude, your a little dusty there. You'll have to step over there and be eternally tormented now for whole of time cause we haven't got a clue how to actually love our enemies or turn the other cheek here! Hell no, this is heaven! Get out!"

Crude analogy mised with false statements.. bad form. And offensive to Christianity and to God.
 
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LouisBooth

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"Peter at the perly gates speaking to a to sinner:

"Ooops, sorry dude, your a little dusty there. You'll have to step over there and be eternally tormented now for whole of time cause we haven't got a clue how to actually love our enemies or turn the other cheek here! Hell no, this is heaven! Get out!" "

Actaully it would be Peter: Why should God let you in, how have you earned it. You would list a ton of things and peter would then list a ton of things you have done wrong and say, to break one part of the law is to break it all, you can't come in. The only answer right answer is Christ died for my sins and through him I am justified to the law...it is by grace alone.
 
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LouisBooth

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and Christ also says, are you perfect, you say no and he says why didn't you take me as your "step in" to attone for you? You say because and he says, there is nothing else I can do if you want to keep your sin, depart from me, I never knew you.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by gunnysgt
GAL 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

gunnysgt,

As I said in another thread, I know that you have a Bible and you know how to open it. But please use it wisely.

Are you sure you know WHAT  gospel apostle Paul PREACHED?  Please enlighten us on what you THINK you know.

Ed
 
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Gunny

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Originally posted by edpobre
gunnysgt,

As I said in another thread, I know that you have a Bible and you know how to open it. But please use it wisely.

Are you sure you know WHAT  gospel apostle Paul PREACHED?  Please enlighten us on what you THINK you know.

Ed

I know that the founder of Iglesia ni cristo is a false prophet.

I know that Psuedo Christian Cults deny the deity of Jesus Christ.

I know that individuals that rely on a man for a revelation from God vs. God's Word itself are being deceived.

I don't doubt your zeal or passion for you doctrinal beliefs according to the dogma of Iglesia ni cristo.

I don't believe that I am creating discord of unity in stating these things concerning Iglesia ni cristo for I believe that INC is a false religion that was started by a false prophet.

I have posted links to various Christian(Bible believing vs. Bible revising) websites that describe Iglesia ni cristo in great detail according to it's own publications and it's founder and leaders statements.

God's Word states that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

God's Word states we are to test the spirits for they do not all come from God.

I fear greatly in these latter days for so many, many people who are being deceived by the father of lies.

Apostasy, spiritual rebellion, spiritual pride and spiritual deception are an epidemic in this presnt age.

One who has been Born Again of above, by God's Spirit, that is filled by the Holy Spirit knows without a doubt who Jesus Christ is as Lord and Savior.


1COR 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1COR 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1COR 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1COR 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1COR 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by gunnysgt
gunnysgt,

As I said in another thread, I know that you have a Bible and you know how to open it. But please use it wisely.

Are you sure you know WHAT  gospel apostle Paul PREACHED?  Please enlighten us on what you THINK you know.

Ed




I know that the founder of Iglesia ni cristo is a false prophet.

I know that Psuedo Christian Cults deny the deity of Jesus Christ.

I know that individuals that rely on a man for a revelation from God vs. God's Word itself are being deceived.

For a while I thought you had something worthwhile to say. But you disappoint me gunnysgt. I don't believe you really know anything. Otherwise, you would have posted CONCRETE proofs of what you know.

First, why should people believe you when you say "you know" that the founder of the Iglesia Ni Cristo is a "false prophet?" Where is your proof?

Second, why should people believe you when you say "you know" that Pseudo Christian Cults "deny the deity of Christ?" Was Christ a Pseudo Christian? Christ SAID he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Don't tell me you don't know the MEANING of the word "ONLY."

Third, why should people believe you when you say that individuals that "rely on a MAN" for a revelation from God vs. God's Word itself "are being deceived?" Were the apostles DECEIVED when they RELIED on Jesus, a MAN (John 8:40; Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; Romans 5:15; 1 Tim. 2:5), for a revelation from God?

Don't you THINK before you say something gunnysgt?

I don't doubt your zeal or passion for you doctrinal beliefs according to the dogma of Iglesia ni cristo.

Thank you.

I don't believe that I am creating discord of unity in stating these things concerning Iglesia ni cristo for I believe that INC is a false religion that was started by a false prophet.

Whose UNITY are you referring to? 

I have posted links to various Christian(Bible believing vs. Bible revising) websites that describe Iglesia ni cristo in great detail according to it's own publications and it's founder and leaders statements.

Posting links is NOT a manly thing to do. You know we cannot address rebuttals  to you that way. If you have the courage, why don't you post what YOUR reasons for your beliefs are (even if they are based on these links) so I can address them directly to you.

God's Word states that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

God's Word states we are to test the spirits for they do not all come from God.

I fear greatly in these latter days for so many, many people who are being deceived by the father of lies.

Apostasy, spiritual rebellion, spiritual pride and spiritual deception are an epidemic in this present age.

And you THINK the Iglesia Ni Cristo is the fulfillment of these prophecies? Have you tested the spirit of the Iglesia Ni Cristo whether it comes from God? HOW did you TEST the Iglesia Ni Cristo gunnysgt?

One who has been Born Again of above, by God's Spirit, that is filled by the Holy Spirit knows without a doubt who Jesus Christ is as Lord and Savior.

Good you said this. Jesus SAID he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Jesus SAID he is ASCENDING to HIS God and Father who is also MY God and MY Father (John 10:17). Jesus CRIED out "MY God, MY God" on the cross (Mark 15:34).

These are WORDS of God that tell me WITHOUT any DOUBT that Jesus is a MAN - not God.

Anyone with ANOTHER belief about Jesus, my Lord and Savior, is NOT "born again of above."

Ed
 
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Gunny

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The Iglesia Ni Cristo and The Bible: A Handling Example.
By: Chris Anna

It is important to note how the Word of God is handled by the INC. The INC claims to believe in the Word of God as
the Truth.


?The Word of God is written in the Bible and since all scripture is inspired by God (cf. II Tim. 3:15-16) then
the Iglesia Ni Cristo has faith in the Bible as the truth and thus, the Bible contains no falsehoods.? (1)
This sounds very good. Of course, God?s Word is Truth (Jn. 17:17). But let us look at another Scripture, wherein Paul
exhorted Timothy, a young leader in the Church, ?Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman
who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of Truth. (2 Timothy 2:15 emphasis added)? We
see that it is important to not only believe that the Bible is the truth, but that it must be handled accurately!
Otherwise, Paul would not have mentioned this to Timothy. Because he was a leader in the Church, Timothy had
much responsibility as well as influence. If he did not handle (study, interpret) the Word of God correctly, he
would have taught false doctrines and theology to the Church. The correct handling of God?s Holy Word is not an
instruction for Timothy only. Anyone who studies The Bible must learn to interpret it correctly, or else false
doctrine will result. This is especially true of those who teach others in the Church.

With this in mind, then, does the INC correctly handle the Word of God? No it does not! Let us see an example (it may
be a little long, so bear with me). The following quote is talking about Felix Manalo, the so-called ?last
messenger? of God, in an attempt to prove that the INC is the True Church by virtue of the ?prophecy? about him.
Now for the quote. I feel it necessary to quote numerous paragraphs here, to get the context.


?The Prophet Isaiah himself recorded the prophecy of God that the Almighty will choose His servant,
a messenger from the ends of the earth whom He will uphold with His righteousness.
?Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto
thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee;
yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of My righteousness.? (Is. 41:9-10, Ibid. [KJV].)

The righteousness that God will use in upholding His messenger is actually the Gospel of Christ
which, according to Apostle Paul in his letter to the Christians in Rome, is also the power of God unto
salvation (cf. Rom. 1:16-17)

This messenger, therefore, is armed with the Gospel of Christ, the message of truth that will sanctify
man and lead him to salvation.

This same messenger will be instrumental in the bringing and gathering of God?s sons and daughters
from the Far East and the Far west. Again, this is proven by the prophecies of God as written in the book
of prophet Isaiah, thus,

?From the far east will I bring your offspring, and from the far west I will gather you, I will bid the north lands
give them up, and bid the south let go, bringing my sons from afar, and my daughters from the end of the earth.? (Is.
43:5-6, Moffatt)

The work of this messenger (that is, to preach the Gospel of Christ so that man could attain salvation)
was likened by God to that of a ravenous bird for He will snatch God?s people from the clutches of false
religions. Another prophecy supports this Biblical truth:

?Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken
it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
I bring near my righteousness: it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place
salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.? (Is. 46:11-13, KJV)

These prophecies were fulfilled in Brother Felix Y. Manalo who preached about the Iglesia Ni Cristo
in the Philippines, a Country in the Far East (Asia and the Philippines, p. 169) in 1914 as the First World
War was breaking out in Europe. This period of time scripturally is referred to as the ends of the earth (cf
Is 41:9-10; 43:5-6) the time when the end of the world is near, even at the doors (cf. Mt. 24:3, 33), which
began with the outbreak of a war of global proportions (cf. Mt. 24:6-7).?(2)

Right off the bat, we can see that there are numerous problems with this text. When I first read this text the
first problem I noticed was the difference in meaning between the ?ends of the earth? in the Bible and the
definition given for it by the author of the quote. If you simply read the verse in context (Isaiah 43:5-6, above), or
even the verses by themselves, you will see that ?end of the earth? is not a time period as mentioned by the author
in the last paragraph of my quote, but rather, it is talking about physical dimensions or directions. It means from
all over the earth; from the west, the east, the south, and the north. This has nothing to do with time period. This is
an obvious and simple mis-interpretation of Scripture, but if taken the way it is meant by the INC, it has much
bearing on their view of Felix Manalo as the ?fulfillment? of these scriptures. Their doctrine of the fulfillment of
these passages by Felix Manalo cannot stand if the ?ends of the earth? does not refer to the last days here in these
passages. This is because, according to the INC writers, the last days started with WWI, when Felix Manalo also
began the INC! Look at the other quoted verse (Is. 41:9-10) which mentions ?ends of the earth?, and which is also
supposedly speaking of Felix Manalo as ?Thou whom I have taken from?and called thee?? So, Felix Manalo is
called in the last days, seeing as how the last days started with WWI, and the ?ministry? of Mr. Manalo also started
at the same time? It?s really a coincidence that was made to fit the Scriptures like a square peg being pounded into
a round hole by a hammer! If you pound the square peg (the INC doctrines) long enough, the round hole
(Scriptures) will eventually appear to resemble the square. (See also, ?The Felix Manalo Prophecy? for more
information on this topic.) Anyone can teach what they believe and then take a Scripture passage and try to make
it fit their beliefs.

1. Placio, Pedrito B. ?History, The Truth, And Faith.? God?s Message, October ? December
1991, pg. 19.

2. Bocobo, Antonio E., JR. ?On Choosing The True Religion.? October ? December 1991,
pp. 14,15.
 
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