Who does Biblical literalism serve?

LightHorseman · Aug 18, 2006

I do however suspect that if I can give explanations, would you accept them? Or have you already decided that the Bible contains errors and is not 100% truth/literal?

I'm always open to friendly discussion. If you can explain those paradoxes, I'm interested to hear what you have to say. However I th9ink you will have your work cut out for you convincing me that the Bible is the literal word of God, rather than ancient allegory.

I appreciate you wanting to talk this over with your church fellows before coming back. But since you are going for re-inforcements, let me throw in another couple of posers...

If the Biuble IS the work of an all knowing all powerful God, rather than his spirit working through ancient prophrets with limited knowledge, why doesn't it mention:

North and South America, Australia, or their residents?
Anything that would be useful to know, but can only be derived through modern science, like germ theory, or atomic theory?
Kangaroos? Noah should have had some onboard, but they don't rate a mention...
Really, REALLY specific predictions, like "Don't vote for Hitler", or "Lead pipes are bad, ok?"

Jon0388g · Aug 18, 2006

LightHorseman said:
I'm always open to friendly discussion. If you can explain those paradoxes, I'm interested to hear what you have to say. However I th9ink you will have your work cut out for you convincing me that the Bible is the literal word of God, rather than ancient allegory.

I appreciate you wanting to talk this over with your church fellows before coming back. But since you are going for re-inforcements, let me throw in another couple of posers...

If the Biuble IS the work of an all knowing all powerful God, rather than his spirit working through ancient prophrets with limited knowledge, why doesn't it mention:

North and South America, Australia, or their residents?
Anything that would be useful to know, but can only be derived through modern science, like germ theory, or atomic theory?
Kangaroos? Noah should have had some onboard, but they don't rate a mention...
Really, REALLY specific predictions, like "Don't vote for Hitler", or "Lead pipes are bad, ok?"

reinforcements lol!!! i like that one! yeah lets keep this friendly and concise for once!

Even God says "Come now, let us reason together..." Isiah 1:18

I'll be back.....

stumpjumper · Aug 18, 2006

MOD HAT ON

Thread cleaned up and reopened. Let's keep the discussion friendly and civil.

Thank you.

[bible]1 Corinthians 13:12-13[/bible]

Jerrysch · Aug 18, 2006

Margim said:
The very thing with a newspaper, though, is that we don't read it literally... we apply what we know of the culture surrounding it, the background, and the context, before we apply our interpretation of the words.

For example, in Australia we have two football teams, the Melbourne Demons and the St Kilda Saints.

If one team beats another, it would not be unheard of to read newspaper headlines 'Demons destroy Saints'... to read it 'literally' would call to mind some bizaar apocalyptic event, when in reality, it is just 36 men beating each other up on a footy field.

The bible must be treated precisely the same way we would treat a newspaper. God inspired, certainly, but written in a certain time, in a particular culture, whose underlying assumptions would have been vastly different to our own.

Yes, the employment of figures of speach do occur in newspapers as well as the Bible. One may employ a literal understnding of the Bible while still recognizing figures of speach. To ignore figures of speach and their meaning is known as letterism, to understand figures of speach is literalism. There is a world of difference, often these two consepts are confused.

Jerrysch · Aug 18, 2006

akaibara That said said:
But wouldn't you think less of Him if He said a day and it wasn't a day? The Scriptures indicate that God performed these activities in a series of days. not billions of years. If It took a billion years... why didn't He say so? No, He took the time indicated in the Bible.

GenemZ · Aug 19, 2006

LightHorseman said:
Anything that would be useful to know, but can only be derived through modern science, like germ theory, or atomic theory?

Germ theory? There was no way for them to see what germs were. Yet?

http://www.oldpaths.com/Archive/Lockwood/Germaine/Charles/1930/Cosmos/ch10.html
http://tinyurl.com/zak4v

Kangaroos? Noah should have had some onboard, but they don't rate a mention..

Only the known world to man was to be destroyed in the flood. Man lived in an area not larger than a large county, or city. Why the need to flood the entire planet when it was man God was out to destroy? Only animals indigenous to the world of man was to be saved on the Ark. All others around the world had no need for concern.

In Christ, GeneZ

artybloke · Aug 19, 2006

God's Word, when correctly exegeted

Ah yes, the "we're the only ones who know what it really means" ploy.

A minority telling a majority how much more superior "knowledge" it has.

PETE_ · Aug 19, 2006

Insisting that God couldn't have created the universe in a way that you can't understand, is a weakness in YOUR faith, not a weakness in God's ability.

works both ways

artybloke · Aug 19, 2006

But wouldn't you think less of Him if He said a day and it wasn't a day?

Not if He meant it metaphorically, no.

theend0218 · Aug 19, 2006

If a person believes that the God who is revealed in Jesus the Christ through Scripture and the Holy Spirit created the world, has a plan for it, and continues to work in it why does it matter so much how it all came to pass? I never understand the need to "prove" evolution vs. "creationism" (or creationism vs. evolution) since neither can be established conclusively.

I do understand those who are worried that "creationism" as it is sometimes presented smacks of anti-intellectualism (or whatever term you prefer), anti-education, anti-science, etc. and want to demonstrate that they are themselves educated and open to all that "modern" science has to offer. I also understand that creationist fear that evolutionary theory as it is often presented does nothing but substitute "man's theory" for "God's word" and want to distance themselves from such attacks upon the Bible as they understand it.

But, again, neither side can really prove anything - science itself is not a methodology that can establish a particular theory as to how the universe came to exist as it does; the Bible itself cannot authenticate a particular interpretation its readers adopt as to how God created the world. If you accept one interpretation over another, well and good, but all you have proven is that you believe the Bible teaches the belief you choose to accept, and probably learned from someone who believed as you now do. This is true regardless of which tradition you follow.

Am I missing something here?

artybloke · Aug 19, 2006

But, again, neither side can really prove anything

No scientific theory is "proven." Not even the Theory of Gravity. However, theories can be disproven, simply by finding out that the evidence does not fit the theory; YEC has been thoroughly discredited and disproved for over 100 years.

At the moment, all the evidence does is point one way: towards evolution. It is theorectically possible that one day, a piece of evidence will be found that contradicts the present theory. At the moment, nothing does. But even if a new theory does arise, it will not be a return to YEC.

GenemZ · Aug 19, 2006

artybloke said:
Ah yes, the "we're the only ones who know what it really means" ploy.

A minority telling a majority how much more superior "knowledge" it has.

No..... Just that the Word of God tells us that the mainstream majority will take a "broad and wide" path concerning God's Word. Am I in the mainstream, a part of the broad and wide? Might be. Who knows? The LORD knows.

Now?

"God's Word, when correctly exegeted...."

Was there something incorrect about that?

If you are the one with the correct exegesis?

You will be having an accurate understanding.

You mean to tell me nobody can? That everyone is right?

Seems to me, you admit with what you have said, that no one can not know they are right. And, that everyone else is no different than we are.

I have news for you. Those who do find it? Will know something true.

1 Corinthians 11:19 niv
No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval."

Are we all there? Are you? Only you can know. And, if you are? There would be no resentment in your tone when someone else boasts to have the truth, when they do not. Many do not and act as they do. True. So?
Are you there?

Luke 12:48 (New American Standard Bible)
"but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more. "

God does not require that we know all truth to walk in happiness and confidence in the LORD (by grace, not intellectual arrogance).

He has for each one of us a requirement of truth to be know. Its fulfilling that requirement that gives the believer the surety and steadfastness of mind that grace in the power of the Spirit imputes. Some are required more than others. Especially, if they are intellectually of greater aptitude. Not all are required the same amount of truth in order to achieve happiness in Christ. Not all are required much as another.

Matthew 25:21 niv
"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

If we fall short of what is required us? We can not have that special certainty and peaceful, tranquil, confidence that gives us our own personal palace of the life more abundantly to dwell in. Many claim to have it (broad and wide interpretations of God's Word). But, only a few find it.

Matthew 7:13-14 (New International Version)

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Of course, you are experiencing the life more abundantly. Right? The happiness that God gives the believers who follow after sound exegesis and love His Word? Its everywhere to be found. Right? Only a few do not find it. Right?

Do I have it? LORD knows. Do I have this much truth correct? My soul will know.

How's yours?

1 Corinthians 11:19 niv
No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval."

Grace and truth, Gene

GenemZ · Aug 19, 2006

artybloke said:
At the moment, all the evidence does is point one way: towards evolution.

How humble of you.......

I have eyes.

You have eyes, too?

We both evolved that far?

Read the following. Take your time. And, see what you are yet missing.

The Bible (in the Hebrew texts) contains information which would explain prehistoric creations with abrupt endings and abrupt new beginnings.

It has got nothing to do with evolution, though God has designed into each creation an ability to adapt to change, which many evolutionists have turned into a hyper quality in design. God intended evolution to reveal he knows the beginning to the end. So? When he designs a beak of a bird to change if the food supply changes? Does that indicate evolution by chance? Or, God's omniscience at work?

Isaiah 65:24 niv
"Before they call I will answer; while they are still speaking I will hear."

Instead of robbing God of his glory. What secularists call evolution, should be revealing God's glory!

Some claim that the GAP theory was created by Christians who wanted to counter the claims of Darwin.

What those who say this fail to see, is that the GAP theory had begun long before Darwin was even in his great grandfather's loins.

What some (YEC's) push aside today as being, "gimmick theology, because they are told this. Do not know that Bible scholars going way back were questioning why the Bible appeared (in the Hebrew, not English translations) to be speaking of prior creations on this earth!

Instead of creating a new theology (which YEC's claim it is) in order to counter Darwinism, it reveals that God's Word contained information long before men understood about the fossil evidence.

Which proves, God's omniscience was at work in writing his Word. For how could the OT saints understand about dinosaurs, and the like? They did not. So? How did it get written into God's Word? God's omniscience.

"In his great works, 'The Legends of the Jews,' Louis Ginsberg has put into continuous narrative a precis of their legends, as far as possible in
the original phrases and terms.

In Volume 1 which covers the period from the Creation to Jacob, he has this excerpt on Genesis 1:

"Nor is this world inhabited by man the first of things earthly created by God. He made several other worlds before ours, but He destroyed them all, because He was pleased with none until He created ours."

http://www.custance.org/Library/WFANDV/chap1.html

Ancient Jewish scholars were seeing prior creations being indicated by how the Hebrew text read!

They had no axe to grind with Darwin who was to be born many centuries later!

And, First Century Theologian, Origen, saw a similar pattern in his study.

Again, with no motivation to disprove Darwin. For, this was long before Darwin was ever born. Why? Its because its what is revealed in the Hebrew text!

God wants us to know about the fossil records. But, not as the evolutionists present it to mean.... which is a Satanic cover up of the Truth.

Origen, for example, who lived from 186 to about 254 A.D., and to whom the original languages of the Bible were very familiar, has this to say in his great work, De Principiis, at Genesis 1:1:

"It is certain that the present firmament is not spoken of in this verse, nor the present dry land, but rather that heaven and earth from which this present heaven and earth that we now see afterwards borrowed their names."

And that he saw verse 2 as a description of a "casting down" of the original is borne out quite clearly by his subsequent observation that the condition resulted from a "disruption" which is best described, he suggests, by the Latin verb dejicere, to throw down.

http://www.custance.org/Library/WFANDV/chap1.html

Grace and peace, GeneZ

Jerrysch · Aug 19, 2006

artybloke said:
Not if He meant it metaphorically, no.

Upon what basis do you determine He was speaking metaphorically?

OldWiseGuy · Aug 19, 2006

genez said:
No..... Just that the Word of God tells us that the mainstream majority will take a "broad and wide" path concerning God's Word. Am I in the mainstream, a part of the broad and wide? Might be. Who knows? The LORD knows.

Now?

"God's Word, when correctly exegeted...."

Was there something incorrect about that?

If you are the one with the correct exegesis?

You will be having an accurate understanding.

You mean to tell me nobody can? That everyone is right?

Seems to me, you admit with what you have said, that no one can not know thay are right. And, that everyone else is no different than we are.

I have news for you. Those who do find it? Will know something true.

1 Corinthians 11:19 niv
No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval."

Are we all there? Are you? Only you can know. And, if you are? There would be no resentment in your tone when someone else boasts to have the truth, when they do not. Many do not and act as they do. True. So?
Are you there?

Luke 12:48 (New American Standard Bible)
"but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more. "

God does not require that we know all truth to walk in happiness and confidence in the LORD (by grace, not intellectual arrogance).

He has for each one of us a requirement of truth to be know. Its fulfilling that requirement that gives the believer the surety and steadfastness of mind that grace in the power of the Spirit imputes. Some are required more than others. Especially, if they are intellectually of greater aptitude. Not all are required the same amount of truth in order to achieve happiness in Christ. Not all are required much as another.

Matthew 25:21 niv
"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

If we fall short of what is required us? We can not have that special certainty and peaceful, tranquil, confidence that gives us our own personal palace of the life more abundantly to dwell in. Many claim to have it (broad and wide interpretations of God's Word). But, only a few find it.

Matthew 7:13-14 (New International Version)
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Of course, you are experiencing the life more abundantly. Right? The happiness that God gives the believers who follow after sound exegesis and love His Word? Its everywhere to be found. Right? Only a few do not find it. Right?

Do I have it? LORD knows. Do I have this much truth correct? My soul will know.

How's yours?

1 Corinthians 11:19 niv
No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval."

Grace and truth, Gene

Standing ovation fer ya, Genez! :clap:

OldWiseGuy · Aug 19, 2006

LightHorseman,

Here's one that is often used to explain seemingly contradictory statements in the bible:

Proverbs 26:

4: Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

5: Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Here the explanation immediately follows the instruction. In the verses you quote the explanation may not be immediately apparent, but a little searching and thought will reveal that there is no real contradiction.

LightHorseman · Aug 20, 2006

Oldwiseguy,

Please explain...
1 Kings 8:9There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.
2 Chronicles 5:10There was nothing in the ark save the two tables which Moses put therein at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of Egypt. Hebrews 9:4The ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant. Genesis 18:14Is any thing too hard for the LORD?
Job 42:1-2Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing....
Jeremiah 32:17Ah Lord God! ... there is nothing too hard for thee.
Jeremiah 32:27Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for the Lord?;
Matthew 19:26 Mark 10:27With God all things are possible.
Luke 18:27The things which are impossible with men are possible with God. Judges 1:19And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Mark 6:5And he could there do no mighty work.
Hebrews 6:18It was impossible for God to lie
2 Peter 2:4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.
Jude 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 1 Peter 5:8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. I mean take your pick

Just let me know if you want any more...

However, I say again, I am not trying to invalidate the Bible, but merely show it is an imperfect work of man.

But heck, just for fun...

Isaiah 64:6
We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.
Psalm 14:3 53:3 Romans 3:12There is none that doeth good, no not one.
Ecclesiastes 7:20For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. John 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life.
2 Corinthians 5:10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
3 John 11He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

GenemZ · Aug 20, 2006

LightHorseman said:
Oldwiseguy,

Please explain...
1 Kings 8:9There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.
2 Chronicles 5:10There was nothing in the ark save the two tables which Moses put therein at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of Egypt. Hebrews 9:4The ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant. Genesis 18:14Is any thing too hard for the LORD?
Job 42:1-2Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing....
Jeremiah 32:17Ah Lord God! ... there is nothing too hard for thee.
Jeremiah 32:27Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for the Lord?;
Matthew 19:26 Mark 10:27With God all things are possible.
Luke 18:27The things which are impossible with men are possible with God. Judges 1:19And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Mark 6:5And he could there do no mighty work.
Hebrews 6:18It was impossible for God to lie
2 Peter 2:4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.
Jude 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 1 Peter 5:8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. I mean take your pick Just let me know if you want any more...

However, I say again, I am not trying to invalidate the Bible, but merely show it is an imperfect work of man.

The only imperfect work of man I see here is you trying to make a point somehow. How does what you quoted make your point?

Maybe, try adding comments to go along with the Scripture next time? Try making sense of why you are presenting what you do?

And? You are quoting the KJV? Shakespearean English is difficult enough to even understand within a regular discourse. Try another translation to make your point, perhaps?

Let's see what you have got to offer.

Thank you...

Grace and peace, GeneZ

LightHorseman · Aug 20, 2006

genez...

Look again,

Just what was in the Ark?
Can God do anything?
Is the devil free to roam?
Are we judged by belief or acts?

What I am suggesting is that if the Bible was the literal word of God, then it would be more clear, and without the contradictions.

artybloke · Aug 20, 2006

Jerrysch said:
Upon what basis do you determine He was speaking metaphorically?

1. The style and form of the writing, which is in the form of a liturgical poem in Chapter One and in the form of a fable in Chaps 2 & 3.

2. The context of the society into which the story was first told. A society full of stories, myths and tales, and not one.

Upon which basis do you assume it is literal, apart from that of the modernist/scientistic lie that all truth is "factual?"

Who does Biblical literalism serve?

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