Holy War.

TheBear · Jul 27, 2006

How do you reason with that? You can't.

Religious wars are 100% emotional and 0% rational......all of them.

SolomonVII · Jul 27, 2006

The Klu Klux Klan, the Ayran Nations, the Westboro Churchof the links are all very apt Christian examples of the type of Muslims that would be calling for these Holy Wars.

Aimee30 · Jul 28, 2006

Bush:"God told me to invade Iraq"
http://www.organicconsumers.org/politics/god101005.cfm
Bush as religious leader:
http://www.theocracywatch.org/bush2.htm
I'm sorry for bringing him up, but he indeed calls for a war based on holy reasons--not that I am here to bash him. It's just that he might be seen as doing the same thing to other countries.
By the way, I really wanted to post this article first. I wanted to see how many people would start say the end times are coming because of this.

SolomonVII · Jul 28, 2006

Aimee30 said:
Bush:"God told me to invade Iraq"
http://www.organicconsumers.org/politics/god101005.cfm
Bush as religious leader:
http://www.theocracywatch.org/bush2.htm
I'm sorry for bringing him up, but he indeed calls for a war based on holy reasons--not that I am here to bash him. It's just that he might be seen as doing the same thing to other countries.
By the way, I really wanted to post this article first. I wanted to see how many people would start say the end times are coming because of this.

There are a lot of people that object to a Christian being in the White House, agreed.
Somehow though, it is stretching the point to compare what George Bush has been doing to what the Al Quaeda leadership is calling for.
But if people don't recognize the difference between Bushes and Bin Ladens, any amount of argument becomes futile anyways.

vipertaja · Jul 28, 2006

Aimee30 said:
Bush:"God told me to invade Iraq"
http://www.organicconsumers.org/politics/god101005.cfm
Bush as religious leader:
http://www.theocracywatch.org/bush2.htm
I'm sorry for bringing him up, but he indeed calls for a war based on holy reasons--not that I am here to bash him. It's just that he might be seen as doing the same thing to other countries.
By the way, I really wanted to post this article first. I wanted to see how many people would start say the end times are coming because of this.

Ah. You found the Bush quotes. The sites I waded through weren't
really worth showing and were mainly out to just bash him and him
alone, though with all the strange stuff that spills out of his mouth
he's making himself a very easy target.

TheBear · Jul 28, 2006

Aimee30 said:
Bush:"God told me to invade Iraq"
http://www.organicconsumers.org/politics/god101005.cfm
Bush as religious leader:
http://www.theocracywatch.org/bush2.htm
I'm sorry for bringing him up, but he indeed calls for a war based on holy reasons--not that I am here to bash him. It's just that he might be seen as doing the same thing to other countries.
By the way, I really wanted to post this article first. I wanted to see how many people would start say the end times are coming because of this.

I'm not here to defend Bush or anything, I just haven't heard him say stuff like "This is a holy war.", or "The 9/11 attack, was an attack on Christianity", or, "I call upon all Christians to take up arms against those heathens."

But I have heard almost the exact same things being spouted by people like Osama Bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, and Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinejad. I have seen hostages getting their heads sawed off while still alive, with the victim spasming, screaming, and eventually gurgling through his cut open wind pipe, with blood gushing from the neck, while people like Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi were shouting praises to God throughout the ordeal, even holding up the head afterwards, while shouting "God is great!"

Don't even try to equivocate.

vipertaja · Jul 28, 2006

solomon said:
There are a lot of people that object to a Christian being in the White House, agreed.
Somehow though, it is stretching the point to compare what George Bush has been doing to what the Al Quaeda leadership is calling for.
But if people don't recognize the difference between Bushes and Bin Ladens, any amount of argument becomes futile anyways.

I don't see anything wrong with a christian president provided he
doesn't abuse his position in the name of religion*, but telling people
in official statements that god told you to do it is exactly the
same thing that muslims do calling for Jihad. He may not do the
same deeds, but he speaks the same magic words.

*which Bush IMO has done plenty unfortunately

EDIT: No, I don't think he is comparable to religious terrorists,
but claiming god given orders to go to war can't really make it anything
less than a "holy war".

Daniels · Jul 28, 2006

Truly saying Muslims they don't know what is "The Holy war"

Jesus loves Muslims, hate Islamic cultures!!

Borealis · Jul 28, 2006

Daniels said:
Al-Qaida's No. 2 leader issued a worldwide call Thursday for Muslims to rise up in a holy war against Israel and join the fighting in Lebanon and Gaza until Islam reigns from "Spain to Iraq."

That last part right there is the exact difference between Israel and its Arab (and Persian) enemies. Israel isn't interested in taking over 5% of the world's landmass. They just want to be able to walk down the streets in their home country without having to wonder if they're going to get blown to bits by a psychotic fanatic. Muslim extremists want to get back what they stole in the 8th century and lost over the next few centuries as the Christian world finally decided that they would fight back.

vipertaja · Jul 28, 2006

Borealis said:
That last part right there is the exact difference between Israel and its Arab (and Persian) enemies. Israel isn't interested in taking over 5% of the world's landmass. They just want to be able to walk down the streets in their home country without having to wonder if they're going to get blown to bits by a psychotic fanatic. Muslim extremists want to get back what they stole in the 8th century and lost over the next few centuries as the Christian world finally decided that they would fight back.

So we're comparing Israelis and muslim extremists.
How about comparing muslims and Israeli extremists then?
An extremist is an extremist and all groups seem to have them.
Israel has it's extremists too if one is willing to find out about
them.

SolomonVII · Jul 28, 2006

We were supposedly comparing extremists to extremists until the hyperbole and rhetoric started to bubble over the top with the contention that Bush was somehow the moral equivalent of the militant jihadists.

Such rhetoric would be worthy of a debate with an Ann Coulter, I suppose, but is really nothing other than a mindless rant.

Comparing extremists to extremist though, it may be noted that the Christian extremists have been all but pushed to the lunatic fringe of their respective societies. It is not that the David Dukes, and the Jimmy Joneses do not exist, but rather that they are universally treated with contempt from all strata of the mainstream.

There will be no streets in even Redneck, America that will ever be named after a Timothy McVeigh.

Israeli extremists exist too, but here too even a bulldog like Sharon was not beyond forcibly removing them from the Gaza, kicking and screaming.

The problem with extremist jihadist movements, though, is that they are not confined to the lunatic fringe in Islamic societies. With their rise to power in 1979 in both the Iran of the Ayatollahs, and in the deal that the equally militant Wahhabis made with the Saudi government after their storming of Mecca in that same year, militnat Islamic jihadists are front and center in their societies.
And, as Borealis points out, they are committed to expansion, through whatever means they deem necessary.

Alabaster · Jul 28, 2006

solomon said:
The problem with extremist jihadist movements, though, is that they are not confined to the lunatic fringe in Islamic societies. With their rise to power in 1979 in both the Iran of the Ayatollahs, and in the deal that the equally militant Wahhabis made with the Saudi government after their storming of Mecca in that same year, militnat Islamic jihadists are front and center in their societies.
And, as Borealis points out, they are committed to expansion, through whatever means they deem necessary.

Actually from someone who is a professional, specializing in the region, I would vehemently disagree with the above. The complexities of the region, in addition to the fact that extremism is generally not extreme, need to be considered, and this is not the case with the above statement.

People do not support Hezbollah or other groups because they are extreme, and I would argue they are not extreme at all.

Wahhabi Islam is supported for other reasons, none of which have to do with their religious beliefs.

It is a non sequitor to assume that extremism in a reasonably democratic location like the US could be compared to extremism in authoritarian nations.

SolomonVII · Jul 28, 2006

If you are stating that 'extremism' is not considered extreme in your part of the world, then you are not vehemently disagreeing with me at all.

Muslims may support the Hizbollahs and the Ayatollahs because their own governments are corrupt, or because they have been brainwashed, or out of a sense of humiliaton, or for a wide variety of reasons.
But just because their support for such organization has normalized extremism, that makes it no less extreme.

Alabaster · Jul 28, 2006

solomon said:
If you are stating that 'extremism' is not considered extreme in your part of the world, then you are not vehemently disagreeing with me at all.

No, I am stating that Hezbollah is not an extremist organization. It is actually much more than terrorism. It has extremist elements, but this is not unusual in developing countries. Hezbollah has gained some considerable capital as a political group and has many different activities. For an organization which has doctors and teachers as employees, labeling them extremist is grossly incorrect.

Muslims may support the Hizbollahs and the Ayatollahs because their own governments are corrupt

That is part of the issue, but not all of it at all. Additionally the Ayatollahs are not supported much at all in Iran.

or because they have been brainwashed, or out of a sense of humiliaton, or for a wide variety of reasons. But just because their support for such organization has normalized extremism, that makes it no less extreme.

But this is simply incorrect logic. Why do you assume the major reason for support of Hezbollah has to do with extremist activities?

Hezbollah runs schools, medical facilities, day care facilities, adult education centers, trade education centers, etc

This is not extremist activity, and has much more to do with support than extremist activity.

SolomonVII · Jul 28, 2006

Alabaster said:
No, I am stating that Hezbollah is not an extremist organization. It is actually much more than terrorism. It has extremist elements, but this is not unusual in developing countries.

Click to expand...

Having a political party that is armed from outside forces bodes poorly for any democracy.

Hezbollah has gained some considerable capital as a political group and has many different activities. For an organization which has doctors and teachers as employees, labeling them extremist is grossly incorrect.

Click to expand...

And the Hell's Angels organize toy drives for kiddies every Chrstmas. That makes them no less a criminal organization.
Hizbollah is not rightly labeled an extremist terrorist organization because of its social programs. It is because of its rockets and kidnappings that it is rightly called as such.
The call has never been for Hizbollah to disband. The call has been for them to disarm.
the same is true of Hamas. Anyone can understand why Palestinians would want to get rid of the corrupt Arafat regime. But as long as the Hamas commits itself to terrorism and violence with its neighbour, it deserves no outside support, and will get none.

That is part of the issue, but not all of it at all. Additionally the Ayatollahs are not supported much at all in Iran.

Click to expand...

Of course they are not. They have proved themselves to be as brutal and corruptible as anything that has come before.
Iranians deserve better.
Any people deserve better, but as long as moderate voices silent or violently muted, there is little chance for change.

But this is simply incorrect logic. Why do you assume the major reason for support of Hezbollah has to do with extremist activities?

Hezbollah runs schools, medical facilities, day care facilities, adult education centers, trade education centers, etc

This is not extremist activity, and has much more to do with support than extremist activity.

Click to expand...

And I have seen some of those 'education' programs that Hizbollah shows the children.
In the end though, if the people support Hizbollah for its social services, then there should be no problem getting Hizbollah to disarm, should there?

Alabaster · Jul 28, 2006

solomon said:
Having a political party that is armed from outside forces bodes poorly for any democracy.

Not really. If you look at history, this is not unusual.

And the Hell's Angels organize toy drives for kiddies every Chrstmas. That makes them no less a criminal organization.

Comparing the social services of groups such as HAMAS and Hezbollah to a toy drive is grossly indicative of a complete lack of understanding of the complexities of the organization. Have you ever read anything on the region, if so, what?

Hizbollah is not rightly labeled an extremist terrorist organization because of its social programs. It is because of its rockets and kidnappings that it is rightly called as such.

Actually Hezbollah is labeled because it is easy to label, and actually understanding is, well honestly not too difficult, but still takes some effort. Most people are either too lazy, or gain some benefit in making a complex situation look simple.

The call has never been for Hizbollah to disband. The call has been for them to disarm. the same is true of Hamas. Anyone can understand why Palestinians would want to get rid of the corrupt Arafat regime. But as long as the Hamas commits itself to terrorism and violence with its neighbour, it deserves no outside support, and will get none.

Just out of curiosity have you ever been to the West Bank or Gaza (if yes, where specifically). I think your understanding of HAMAS is simplistic.

And I have seen some of those 'education' programs that Hizbollah shows the children.

Really? Which schools?

In the end though, if the people support Hizbollah for its social services, then there should be no problem getting Hizbollah to disarm, should there?

The issue of disarming is, like others, much more complex than you are portraying it.

Verv · Jul 28, 2006

vipertaja said:
What has credibility to do with religion and why does the person have
to be widely followed? A nut is a nut no matter what he believes in or
how many follow him.
(And no, not all religious persons are nutcases in my book. Not even most)

Are you honestly saying no christians call out for holy war and the
world to end? I've seen quite a few every now and then. Even Bush
himself called the iraq war a crusade and said god told him to do it.
What the hell do you call that then?

As for real expremists and not just politic weasels...there are
christian terrorists too you know. Heck there are even buddhist
terrorists, as bizarre as it may sound.

If a group does not have significant numbers it is not reflective on the entire religion in the least, and can be written off as crack-pots. I am sure there are rapists in Sweden, but could I call all Swedes to be rapists because of this extreme minority?

Furthermore, Pres. Bush called the war a crusade in an improper moment; he was not using it to all it a Christian holy war but in the more conventional use of "a struggle, a long fight."

I would also like to note if the Crusades are viewed in their proper, historic context it is hard to disagree with Pope Innocent's decision.

Alabaster · Jul 28, 2006

jmverville said:
I would also like to note if the Crusades are viewed in their proper, historic context it is hard to disagree with Pope Innocent's decision.

I don't think this is true at all. I am calling your bluff. Please support your claim with historical evidence.

Borealis · Jul 28, 2006

Alabaster said:
I don't think this is true at all. I am calling your bluff. Please support your claim with historical evidence.

Ask, and you shall receive. Be careful what you wish for.

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/tmadden_crusademyths_feb05.asp

excerpt said:
During the Middle Ages you could not find a Christian in Europe who did not believe that the Crusades were an act of highest good. Even the Muslims respected the ideals of the Crusades and the piety of the men who fought them. But that all changed with the Protestant Reformation. For Martin Luther, who had already jettisoned the Christian doctrines of papal authority and indulgences, the Crusades were nothing more than a ploy by a power-hungry papacy. Indeed, he argued that to fight the Muslims was to fight Christ himself, for it was he who had sent the Turks to punish Christendom for its faithlessness. When Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent and his armies began to invade Austria, Luther changed his mind about the need to fight, but he stuck to his condemnation of the Crusades. During the next two centuries people tended to view the Crusades through a confessional lens: Protestants demonized them, Catholics extolled them. As for Suleiman and his successors, they were just glad to be rid of them.

Go ahead and read the article, if the truth interests you.

SolomonVII · Jul 28, 2006

Alabaster said:
And I have seen some of those 'education' programs that Hizbollah shows the children.

Alabaster said:

Really? Which schools?

Click to expand...

The issue is not all that complex. It's child'splay really.

http://memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=964

http://memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=924

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=964wmv&ak=null

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=924wmv&ak=null

(she's such a little cutie, aint she, and the teacher is so sophisticated- so modern, so... professional).

Holy War.

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