on harmonizing James with faith alone..

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Blackhawk

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Are you reffering to this verse?

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

notice he did not say why that fait hwould not save him. Could it be because without works it is obviously faith in the wrong thing? So people without works saying that they have faith in God really do not at all. That they have faith in soemthing else.

Blackhaw
 
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LouisBooth

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I would disagree with not being saved by faith alone. If this is true, then God is not God according to Ephesians 2:8. Salvation is God given, and if something we do has an effect on salvation then it is not God's to give but ours to take. This is clearly against what verse 8 says. Works is not something that happens during or before salvation, but after. I would akin it to a married couple. Your behavior changes AFFER you are married. You do things differently, thus is the christian life. Works is a natural part of it, but not a REQUIRED part to be. The illustration Paul liked to use is citizenship. If I am a citizen of the kingdom it is only natural that I want to care for that kingdom and to do this works. Works do not quailify me for citizenship, but it shows I am a citizen.

That about sums it up. :)
 
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Blackhawk

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Desmios Tou Christou,

James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says

This verse just says that we should not only listen but do what the word says. No one is disagreeing with that.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

Again no one is deabting that one has to not only believe in God but must have faith.

Blackhaw


 
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Thunderchild

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<font color=red>James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?</font><font color=green>

notice he did not say why that fait hwould not save him. Could it be because without works it is obviously faith in the wrong thing? So people without works saying that they have faith in God really do not at all. That they have faith in soemthing else. </font>

The reason that faith is unable to save him is stated with certainty.

Faith without works is dead. v20...faith needs works to bring it to perfection v22 ,,, a person is justified before God by works v24 AND v25 ... faith without works is like a body without the spirit - dead v26
 
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LouisBooth

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"The reason that faith is unable to save him is stated with certainty."

Only if you yank that verse out of context. You are missing the whole point of the book man!!

to preface his statements look at the previous verses. in chapter 1 James clearly shows what he is saying.

"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what is says, Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what is says is like a man who looks at his face in a morror and after looking at himself goes away and immediately forges what he looks like. You also miss out on verse 14 where James is clearly calling the said faith into question as not real faith. Works are NOT salvation nor do they have any part in it. Its like a dog barking. If he doesn't bark he doen't cease to be a dog, but the bark is evidence that he exsists.
 
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Thunderchild

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"The reason that faith is unable to save him is stated with certainty."

Only if you yank that verse out of context. You are missing the whole point of the book man!!

<font color=green>to preface his statements look at the previous verses. in chapter 1 James clearly shows what he is saying.</font>

<font color=red:D o not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what is says, Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what is says is like a man who looks at his face in a morror and after looking at himself goes away and immediately forges what he looks like.</font> Indeed, this is true - James is admonishing the reader to DO what the word says, not just listen to it... Somewhere it is written, not the hearers of the law are justified before God, but the doers thereof. (I think Paul was the one who wrote it.)

<font color=green>You also miss out on verse 14 where James is clearly calling the said faith into question as not real faith. .</font>

Are you referring to James 2:14? - <font color=red> My brothers, what is the gain if anyone claims to have faith, but does not have works? Is faith able to save him? No.</font> This verse does not anywhere say that it is not a real faith. This verse states that faith is not able to save in the absence of works - completely in contradiction to your own claim <font color=green> Works are NOT salvation nor do they have any part in it.</font>

<font color=green> Its like a dog barking. If he doesn't bark he doen't cease to be a dog, but the bark is evidence that he exsists. </font>

I don't recall seeing a passage to the effect that works are evidence of the existence of faith (though such a verse may exist, I will admit) I DO, however, recall this passage - <font color=red>Act 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. </font> - Oh dear, Paul preached from the first that people should* repent and produce works. should* is not in the Greek.... <font color=red> ... preached from the first ... and to the Gentiles, that they repent and produce works in keeping with repentence.</font> This is what Paul himself preached from the first. - no faith alone in there.
 
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LouisBooth

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So are hears of the word saved? NOPE.

"not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. "

Its all summed up right there.
Again, I ask, where do actions start? IN THE HEART and that is where you are saved. In the heart. Works play no part in salvation, the are a post salvation occurance.

"This verse does not anywhere say that it is not a real faith. This verse states that faith is not able to save in the absence of works - completely in contradiction to your own claim "

:lol: it doesn't at all. It in fact proves my point. Look at the earlier verses. Do you not understand the illistration in the early part of chapter 2? its talking about judging by outter appearances!!! You also seem not to understand the illistration staring in verse 22.

"I don't recall seeing a passage to the effect that works are evidence of the existence of faith"

YOu haven't read james then..

verse 2:28 ..."and I will show you my faith by what I do." out of TRUE FAITH, works naturally flow. Unnatural things happen, you don't HAVE to have works, they are not a requirement.

I think a better translation of that word is prove. thus saying prove your faith by your deeds. Get it? Not a requirement. Its proof. See the difference.
He did preach faith alone. He is saying, show others you are christians by your love, just as Christ said. It is in required. :) Hope I cleared that up for you.
 
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Thunderchild

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verse 2:28 ... <font color=red> and I will show you my faith by what I do.</font><font color=green> out of TRUE FAITH, works naturally flow. Unnatural things happen, you don't HAVE to have works, they are not a requirement.</font> Definitely, that is a possible interpretation of the quote, but a second possibility exists: that by what I do you will see the evidence of my faith. So which of the two possible interpretations is valid? <font color=red>Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world. .... 1Cr 13:2-3 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. </font> That is clear enough - A person's faith is of no benefit to that person in the absence of that person's ability to (and demonstration of) love. Moreover, what we do is of no benefit if that doing is not prompted by love. In sum, both faith and works are useless without love. Here again, the concept that "faith alone is sufficient" is shown to be false. You are quite correct in stating that it begins in the heart - no doubt of it.

<font color=green> I think a better translation of that word is prove. thus saying prove your faith by your deeds. Get it? Not a requirement. Its proof. See the difference.</font> You might have had a point, if the verse said "deeds are the proof of faith," but the (better translated) verse says "prove your faith" - and given that proving metal does not mean "showing the evidence that it exists", prove your faith would, given that you are stating a preference for Elizabethan English, in fact re-inforce the statement in Jam 2:22 <font color=red>Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? </font>

<font color=green> He did preach faith alone. .</font> Despite the fact that James says <font color=red>Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.</font> and <font color=red> Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. </font> you continue to claim James was saying faith alone is sufficient? But then you go on to say: <font color=green> He is saying, show others you are christians by your love, just as Christ said.</font> Would you care to examine those statments for logical consistency? Showing people that you are a Christian is a thing that is done. The showing is itself a work. Or if not, Jam 2:15 - 17 is nonsense. <font color=red> If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. </font>
 
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LouisBooth

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First of all you're quoting different scriptures dealing with different things!!! :lol: That verse in 1 cor. has NOTHING to do with salvation. :lol: I think its kinda funny to that you miss the last part of that cahpter "and now these three remain: faith, hope and love.." wow..I don't see works in there at all!!!!

"That is clear enough - A person's faith is of no benefit to that person in the absence of that person's ability to (and demonstration of) love"

Ahh..but where does love start? IN THE HEART. It doesn't start with actions. Love is a mindset, not works. Heck, half the stuff in there are attutide!! You're really reaching here. Lets just look in the book of John...3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned.." I dont' see anything about works in there. Your salvation or condemenation relies on BELIEF.

"does not mean "showing the evidence that it exists", "

Actaully it does..how do you know its a dog? it barks, have fur and does things a dog could do. It looks like a dog. but sometimes you find animals that don't look like what they are..dophins for example dont' LOOK like mammals, BUT THEY ARE. The proof they are talking about is how you live out your salvation. Just like when you are freed from prison you live like you're NOT in prison. You don't do the same things as you did in prison.

"The showing is itself a work. "

Exactly, you don't have to but you naturally will. Thus James is saying, if you're a christian start acting like it! James is NOT writing about how to become a christian but how a post salvation person should act!! James was writing to people that were ignoring God's laws that were clearly revealed. There were at the opposite end of the spectrum. Thus his harsh words. in verse 1:22 You're not taking the book in context.
 
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Thunderchild

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<font color=green> First of all you're quoting different scriptures dealing with different things!!! That verse in 1 cor. has NOTHING to do with salvation. I think its kinda funny to that you miss the last part of that cahpter "and now these three remain: faith, hope and love.." wow..I don't see works in there at all!!!!</font> I was sure that 1 Corinthians 13: 2 made mention of the fact that faith meant nothing if it was not backed by love. I was also sure that there was a direct correlation between James 2:15-17 (which carefully points out what kind of religion is acceptable to God) and 1 Corinthians 13:2 Maybe I Misunderstood something - did you mean me to believe that while works are not part of the requirement for salvation, other factors ARE involved? Love, for instance?

<font color=green>Ahh..but where does love start? IN THE HEART.</font> I thought that I had stipulated to that already. Yes, I did. <font color=blue>You are quite correct in stating that it begins in the heart - no doubt of it.</font>
<font color=green>It doesn't start with actions. Love is a mindset, not works. Heck, half the stuff in there are attutide!! You're really reaching here. Lets just look in the book of John...3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned.." I dont' see anything about works in there. Your salvation or condemenation relies on BELIEF.</font> Hmmm. I don't see any concept of "alone" after "belief" in that passage. Did someone inadvertently add a word to the Biblical record perhaps, and in doing so, subtract from the message of the gospel? Or do you also consider that demons are saved? For it is written that even the demons believe - and tremble.

In quoting me you have cited <font color=blue>does not mean showing the evidence that it exists</font> Oh - yes, my paragraph is a little (well, a lot really) convoluted. Let's see what the Greek has to say:deiknuo - "show." Now, what I was trying to say is "prove" my faith by my works would have meant "purify" as in "proving metal", it would not have meant "show"- and it does mean show, as demonstrated through recourse to a concordance.

<font color=green>Actaully it does..how do you know its a dog? it barks, have fur and does things a dog could do. It looks like a dog. but sometimes you find animals that don't look like what they are..dophins for example dont' LOOK like mammals, BUT THEY ARE. .</font> Ah... we are back at the menagerie. In fact dolphins do look very much like mammals...they look similar to whales which are also mammals.

<font color=green>The proof they are talking about is how you live out your salvation Just like when you are freed from prison you live like you're NOT in prison. You don't do the same things as you did in prison.</font> Tut. Now you're back to doing things again.

<font color=green>The showing is itself a work. Exactly, you don't have to but you naturally will. Thus James is saying, if you're a christian start acting like it! </font> *scratching head* ummm....didn't you just shoot your own prior comment down in flames. You don't have to...James says you must????? <font color=green> James is NOT writing about how to become a christian but how a post salvation person should act!! !! </font> I don't recall that I ever said anything along the lines of "James is saying how to become a Christian." And here we go again with the "should" - which certainly means nothing like "if a person is a Christian it will naturally happen." Just which side of the debate are you trying to support? <font color=green> James was writing to people that were ignoring God's laws that were clearly revealed. There were at the opposite end of the spectrum. Thus his harsh words. in verse 1:22 You're not taking the book in context </font> I am not taking the book in which of the many possible contexts? I am certainly taking the book into context with all other Biblical records which address the subjects of faith and of the factors involved in salvation - so it must be some other "taking into context" that you are referring to. It is doubtful that I would consider it valid to take the epistle in context with grounds other than the complete Biblical record..
 
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LouisBooth

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"was also sure that there was a direct correlation between James 2:15-17"

:lol: but there isn't because true faith is in love. :lol: You're talking about apples and oranges here. That scripture doesn't apply.

"other factors ARE involved? Love, for instance? "

Nope, nothing else is involved. No where in those verses is Paul talking about salvation. You're taking it out of context!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"You are quite correct in stating that it begins in the heart - no doubt of it."

Exactly, works are a RESULT of what you feel in your heart. True faith. then works. but it only takes true faith to save. Example: Luke cp 24 theif on the cross.

"Hmmm. I don't see any concept of "alone" after "belief" in that passage"

Its pretty easy to see...belief=saved nonbelief=not saved. Its made pretty clear in that passage.

"Or do you also consider that demons are saved"

*sigh* wrong kind of belief there bub. He is talking about true faith.

"In fact dolphins do look very much like mammals...they look similar to whales which are also mammals. "

:lol: Okay, not you're just being dishonest. Look in your science history book at find out what people first thought they were..fish..ie NOT mammals. :rolleyes:

"You don't have to...James says you must????? "

if you take it out of context, yes, it says exactly that. Taken out of context the book of james says exactly what you want it to.

"I don't recall that I ever said anything along the lines of "James is saying how to become a Christian." "\

:lol: that's EXACTLY what we are talking about. You say to have salvation you have to do works. The salvation experience is what makes you a christian :rolleyes: Its getting tiring talking to you while you dance around like that.

"I am certainly taking the book into context with all other Biblical records which address the subjects of faith and of the factors involved in salvation "

:lol: no you're not or you would say that works have no part in salvation.

Do I need to go dig up my upteen million verses in the NT that support my position or will you acutally read the bible and find them? Good place to start..synoptics and John.





 
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Thunderchild

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<font color=red> Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. </font> According to this, Jesus saves - no mention of faith being involved. You could not assume that faith saves based on this verse in isolation.
<font color=red> Rom 8:23-24 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? </font> We are saved by hope - again, when this verse is taken in isolation, there is no way to show that we are saved by faith.
<font color=red> 1Cr 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. </font> We are saved by the gospel. Does it really need to be said that this passage does not even begin to say we are saved by the gospel alone?
<font color=red>1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:</font> We are saved by baptism. baptism alone does not save us.

So much for saved (not that the list is in any wise complete)...on to salvation.

<font color=red> Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. </font> The gospel saves IF the person also believes. Any claim that the gospel alone is sufficient is denied.
<font color=red> 2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: </font> Salvation through sanctification yet AND believing the truth
<font color=red> Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; </font> Salvation through obedience.

Now for save

<font color=red> 1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. </font> Ack. We can save others and ourselves. by heeding doctrine and by continuing in it. And that statement opens a can of worms.
<font color=red> Hbr 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. </font> Intercession by Jesus will save us.
<font color=red> Jam 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls</font> The engrafted word will save us.

Saved by faith alone is a godless myth, an old wives' tale which subtracts from the gospel.

 
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LouisBooth

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*sigh* you once again rip verses out of context. That verse in Acts was not ment to be taken by itself. It was spoken with a certain thing in mind. That you are only saved by christ an no other.

"You could not assume that faith saves based on this verse in isolation."

That's your problem. in isolation.

"So much for saved (not that the list is in any wise complete)...on to salvation. "

:lol: there's your problem. Its taken out of context. The verse I produced for you from John chapter 3 was very much in context. It was CLEARLY talking about salvation. The verses you have quoted are not. I would say, hey you want a hot dog and you would go to PETA and say I'm grilled up pit bulls or something :lol:

"
Saved by faith alone is a godless myth, an old wives' tale which subtracts from the gospel."

:rolleyes: No, it is your message of earned salvation that takes away from the gospel. It is made quite simple in every book of the bible that we are saved by faith alone. The simplest way i can put it to you is this....oh..and it is very much in context..."For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of Fod 'not as a result of works, that on one should boast." There ya go..faith alone, no works, period.
 
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Thunderchild

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Jesus said that some would believe for a time, but fall away when tribulation arose. I am inclined to believe that he knew what he was talking about.

It is very easy to claim that a passage is taken out of context, but when there is no attempt to back up the claim with supporting evidence, I will dismiss the claim as nothing more than a smokescreen.

FACT - Various passages state that we are saved by things other than faith. Faith alone is therefore invalid as a doctrine. Sample passages have been posted which show what some of those other factors are. No attempt has been made by opponents to demonstrate that there has been a misinterpretation or misrepresentation of the text - no more than an unsupported declaration that they are taken out of context has been made.

The statement that "this verse taken in isolation" does not show that faith is involved in salvation was made to show that those verses which people will say support OSAS are taken in isolation from all other references which state that other factors are involved. To put it bluntly - I would not say that "the gospel alone saves" and it is clear that "faith alone saves" has no greater support than "gospel alone saves."


 
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LouisBooth

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"okay, would you like me to go verse by verse and show you how it was out of context? If you are applying a scripture to a topic that was NOT being discussed, then it is out of context (see my analogy).

"FACT - Various passages state that we are saved by things other than faith. Faith alone is therefore invalid as a doctrine. "

Untrue. These things are evidences of faith. We can go back through each one of those verses if you like.

Just as an example..
"1Cr 15:1-2 " In this passage it is clear he is talking about the resurrection event itself, not its signficance or salvation at all. Look at the next few verses...He goes on to say Christ died for our sins and rose then the next 4 verses he lists those he appeared to. Then in the last of the passage he (Paul) says that he says he isnt worth, but the grace is..then look at the last verse of the passage.."this is what you BELIEVED." hmm...hint hint :lol: But if I would make a "ruling" this passage is NOT talking about salvation or the requirements of it at all, but about the actual event therefore you are taking this out of context.
 
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Thunderchild

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What does it mean "to take a passage out of context"?
Quite simple really, it is taking a phrase sentence or paragraph out of the surrounding passages to give it a meaning which was never intended - or - taking a phrase sentence or paragraph as being a stand alone declaration, ignoring the fact that yet other passages on the same topic do not say the same thing.

Examples are as follows: A person might say that the Bible claims Jesus cast out demons only by the prince of demons. The quote is taken out of context, that statement exists in the Bible, but it is not what the passage says - the passage says a false charge had been made that Jesus cast out demons only by the prince of demons.

When the spies reported back about what they had seen in Philistia, they said that these people are 10 feet tall. However, this phrase, while apparently stating that the people were 120 inches high, does not mean that the people were literally 10 feet tall - it is a statement which refers to their prosperity and pride, as shown by context - in this case, a couple of sentences earlier.

Or we might see that "by faith you are saved" and claim that is the sum of all the Bible has to say about what saves, ignoring the existence of other passages which say such things as "if you believe and are baptised", "repent and produce fruits in keeping with repentence" and so forth. In claiming that "faith alone saves" we would be taking the references declaring "by faith you are saved" out of context. Taking into account the whole of Bible denies any possibility that faith alone saves. I have no hesitation in saying that God alone saves...faith is one part of the process by which he achieves this (another is Jesus's atoning sacrifice on the cross.)

When an author states something as a fact while addressing other issues, a quote which refers to the stated fact is not being taken out of context - it is an extract of the facts pertinent to the topic under review.

<font color=green> Just as an example..
"1Cr 15:1-2 " In this passage it is clear he is talking about the resurrection event itself, not its signficance or salvation at all. Look at the next few verses...He goes on to say Christ died for our sins and rose then the next 4 verses he lists those he appeared to.</font>

Verse 1 <font color=red>And I make known to you , brothers, the gospel which I preached to you..."</font> says that in the authors opinion, the topic of discussion being undertaken in this paragraph is the same gospel that he preached from the first. <font color=red>in which you stand, through which you are saved - the word I preached to you -if you hold fast </font> The author states that the gospel saves, but that is conditional - if we hold fast. Verse 3 details what that preaching of the gospel entailed. <font color=red>For among the first things I delivered to you, that which I also received, that Christ died on behalf of our sins...</font> an expansion on 1 Cor 2:2

So then, the "analysis" cited in green, above, is incorrect at base - far from being an address on the "resurrection event", it is about the teaching of the gospel and the effects thereof.

If we pretend though, that the address really was about the resurrection event, how does that affect the meaning of the declaration that we are saved by the gospel? It makes not the slightest difference at all - the author has presented "salvation through the gospel" as a statement of fact. Nothing in the passage, nor anywhere else in the Bible denies that the claim is correct. Other passages do modify it, though, showing that the gospel is not the only factor involved.


 
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LouisBooth

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Feb 6, 2002
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thunder, I dont think you see that you're wrong here do you? Just read the last few verses that follow, maybe you'll get it then. Saved by faith alone is something FULLY supported by the bible. I have yet to see a verse taken in context to show otherwise. He is talking about diluting the message that is why he goes on to state the primary message that is christ died for our sins. He is NOT talking about loosing your salvation. LOOK AT THE CONTEXT!!
 
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