Noahides - An Authentic Religion?

Turbulence said:

Now back to the details... First, since being Noahide seems to stem directly from Judaism, I am looking for justification for why Judaism is the "best" religion to follow. How do we know that the OT - for Jews known as the Tanach - scriptures have corroborating evidence and historical support to its authenticity and that they are not made up by man? I feel this needs to be cleared up since if one desires to be Noahide, they, by definition, sojourn with the Jewish people.

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Turbulence said:

Second, supposing that the Tanach is absolutely inspired by God, what scriptural support is there for being a Noahide? Jews (especially Orthodox) claim that there are 2 laws handed down for the Jewish people. The written law (Tanach) and the oral law (Talmud). It seemed to me that being Noahide is based on the oral law, and no where in the written law are the seven laws described directly. This begs the question of whether this is man's attempt of controlling the masses - or is this truly from God?

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Turbulence said:

Third, from what I understood, being a Noahide means that you follow specified commandments beyond the major 7. (One of those 7 saying you shall not worship idols - which includes Jesus.) But, on top of those extra commands (or smaller subsections describing the major 7), the Rabbis who have seemingly created these laws go on to state that you cannot observe anything that looks to be Jewish (if you are not born Jewish). So if one has a zeal for God and wants to observe the Sabbath on Saturday, this would be forbidden by the Orthodox! How does one justify this?

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The Noahide laws, also called the Brit Noah (Covenant of Noah) are the mitzvot (commandments) and halakhot (laws) that Judaism teaches that all non-Jews are morally bound to follow. They are listed in the Talmud and elaborated on by post-Talmudic authorities. Opinions differ on the reach of these commandments and the laws derived from them, but all contemporary authorities agree that there are seven commandments. These commandments and laws are based on exegesis of Genesis 2:16 and 9:4-6.

Origin

According to the Biblical narrative, the Deluge covered the whole world killing everyone except Noah and his family and the creatures of the ark. After the flood, God seals a convenant with Noah with the following admonitions (Genesis 9):

• Food: "Also, flesh with the life -the blood- in it do not eat." (9:4)
• Murder: "I will also inquire about your blood, your life, from all animals, and from each human I will inquire about his brother's blood. Who sheds the blood of man, by man his blood will be shed, because in the image of God was man made."

The Talmud (tractate Sanhedrin 56a/b, quoting Tosefta Sanhedrin 9:4) states that the instruction to not eat "flesh with the life" was given to Noah, and that Adam and Eve had already received six other commandments in Paradise. The remaining six are derived from a seeming superfluous sentence in Genesis 2:16.

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The seven laws

The seven laws are:

1. Shefichat damim - Do not murder.
2. Gezel - Do not steal/kidnap.
3. Avodah zarah - Do not worship false gods/idols.
4. Gilui arayot - Do not be sexually immoral (forbidden sexual acts are traditionally interpreted to include incest, sodomy, male homosexual sex acts and adultery)
5. Birkat Hashem - Do not blaspheme.
6. Dinim - Set up righteous and honest courts and apply fair justice in judging offenders and uphold the principles of the last five.
7. Ever min ha-chai - Do not eat anything of the body of an unslaughtered animal (given to Noah)

The Talmud also states: "Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come" (Sanhedrin 105a). Any person who lives according to these laws is known as "the righteous among the gentiles". Maimonides states that this refers to those who have acquired knowledge of God and act in accordance with the Noahide laws.

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Definition of Noahides

According to rabbinic Judaism, as expressed in the Talmud, the Noahide Laws apply to all humanity through their descent from one paternal ancestor who in Hebrew tradition is called Noah (the head of the only family to survive during The Flood). In Judaism, B'nai Noach (Hebrew, "Descendants of Noah", "Children of Noah") refers to all Humans, but Noahide has come to refer to non-Jews who live in accord with the seven Noahide Laws; the term "observant Noahide" would be more precise but is infrequently used. A non-Jewish person of any ethnicity or religion is refered to as a bat (daughter)/ben (son) of Noah but usually an organization calling itself B'nai Noach would most likely be composed of gentiles believing that they are keeping the Noahide Laws. There is some controversy concerning whether or not a gentile may declare him/herself to be a keeper of the Noahide Laws or whether such a qualification can only be bestowed upon a gentile by a Beth Din (rabbinical court). Those adamant that B'nei Noah can only refer to noahides who believe they are keeping the Brit Noah take the stance that a Gentile can declare oneself to be a keeper of the Brit, while more orthodox parties feel rather than deciding for themselves Gentiles must submit themselves to the qualification stipulated in revelation but this consequently leads to the necessity for Torah Scholars (usually 3) to test identify and confer such status upon them.

Judaism holds that gentiles (non-Jews) are not obligated to follow the same halakha that Jews are obligated to follow. Though there is at least one well-documented case in which a Jewish state required all subjects to conform to Jewish beliefs and practices (in effect, to become Jewish), Rabbinic Judaism and its modern-day descendents discourage proselytization and interprets the historical data as evidence of the Jewish mission to "noahidify" gentiles. Noahide Laws may be considered the way to have a meaningful relationship with God or at least comply with a minimum threshold of divine law.

Maimonides states in his work Mishneh Torah (The laws of kings and their rulership 8:11) that a Geir Toshav who is precise in the observance of these Seven Noahide commandments is considered to be a Righteous Gentile and has earned the afterlife. This follows a similar statement in the Talmud (tractate Sanhedrin 105b). However, according to Maimonides, a share in the World to Come is only earned if a person follows the Noahide laws specifically because they consider them to be of divine origin (through the Torah) and not if they simply consider them a good way to live (in which case they would simply be wise, a Nochri). Other authorities do not make this distinction.

Noahide law differs from the Roman law for gentiles (ius gentium) because the latter was an enforceable judicial policy. Rabbinic Judaism has never adjudicated any cases under Noahide law (per Novak, 1983:28ff.), although scholars disagree about whether the Noahide law is a functional part of Halakha (cp. Bleich).

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Turbulence said:

Sorry if I put 3 threads in one here (Oh-no, there's that old doctrine again )... I really had a lot on my mind!
I appreciate your replies here...and I am intersted in all three topics. Since I am kind of new to the CF, then I will gladly take some advice on how this should be discussed. Let me know...

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Turbulence said:

OK, but reading the summary regarding Noachidism states that it came from Rabbinic thought and it is supported in the Talmud.

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Turbulence said:

So, yes, I agree that the Torah came much after the Noachide Laws... But when did the idea of the 7 Noachide Laws come into consciousness for the Jewish people?

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Turbulence said:

My question does not concern the conception of these laws, but rather the revelation of these laws for the nations of the world.

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ServantofTheOne said:

The prophet Muhammad(pbuh) confirmed all of these laws:

1. Shefichat damim - Do not murder.

On that account: We ordained For the Children of Israel That if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. The although there came To them Our Messengers With clear Sings, yet, Even after that, many Of them continued to commit Excess in the land. (Noble Quran 5:27-32)
17:33: Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law).


2. Gezel - Do not steal/kidnap.

"As to the thief, male of female, cut off his or her hands. A punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime" (Surah al-Ma'idah, 38).

3. Avodah zarah - Do not worship false gods/idols.
17:22: Take not with Allah another object of worship; or thou (O man!) wilt sit in disgrace and destitution.


4. Gilui arayot - Do not be sexually immoral (forbidden sexual acts are traditionally interpreted to include incest, sodomy, male homosexual sex acts and adultery)

17:32: Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).

5. Birkat Hashem - Do not blaspheme.


25:72: And those who will not witness vanity, but when they pass near senseless play, pass by with dignity.

6. Dinim - Set up righteous and honest courts and apply fair justice in judging offenders and uphold the principles of the last five.

"O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe GOD, when you serve as witnesses, even against yourselves, or your parents, or your relatives. Whether the accused is rich or poor, GOD takes care of both. Therefore, do not be biased by your personal wishes. If you deviate or disregard (this commandment), then GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do." (4:135).

7. Ever min ha-chai - Do not eat anything of the body of an unslaughtered animal (given to Noah)

"O you who believe! Eat of the good things wherewith We have provided you, and render thanks to Allah if indeed He is The One you worship"Qur'an (2:172).

"But certainly what God has forbidden to you are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has had other than name of God invoked upon it, but whoever is constrained by necessity, not out of insolence, nor with the intention of repeating it, then no sin is on him. Surely God is All-Forgiving, All- Merciful."Qur'an (2:173).

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B'nei Noach Torah Study​

Rabbi Yossi Markel



Two Points of information:

There are 7 Noachide commandments NOT 66

AND

The 7 commandments actually have MORE than 66 offshoots.

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Gentiles are allowed to study both the written and the oral Torah as necessary to be a Noachide. Particularly, B'nei Noach (BN) may study Torah to do their own Mitzvahs and any Jewish Mitzvahs they wish to add. This includes the study of Kabbalah which is necessary to do the Noachide Mitzvahs related to G-d.

A Noachide is not only permitted, but actually REQUIRED, to study the Torah FOR THE REASON of his Seven Mitzvos. This means:

• • • To enhance his understanding of the Seven Mitzvos; which includes the study of Kabbalah and Chassidus to enhance his knowledge and Fear of G-d;
    • To improve and refine his character and learn morality;
    • To see if he wants to convert to Judaism;
    • To see if he wants to add a Jewish Mitzvah to get additional reward;
    • To learn Talmudic logic so that he can apply it to his study of the Seven Mitzvos;
    • To learn the Laws of Shabbos and Holidays in order to REFRAIN from keeping the Shabbos;
    • To learn the true history of the world;
    • To strengthen his Trust in G-d;
    • Etc!

So it seems that B’nei Noach can study EVERYTHING! So what is it they can not study?



They can not JUST STUDY TORAH FOR ITS OWN SAKE; as the Mitzvah of studying Torah. To study Torah B’nei Noach must have a reason of enhancing their understanding of Noachism in some way or of improving their moral character or faith, etc.

This includes a prohibition of going up to the Torah; a practice that some Noachide communities have started. There is absolutely NO reason for a Noachide to go up to the Torah! This is a form of PURE Torah study which does not require ANY understanding and it seems that it is absolutely prohibited.

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To see if he wants to convert to Judaism

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To see if he wants to add a Jewish Mitzvah to get additional reward

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To learn the Laws of Shabbos and Holidays in order to REFRAIN from keeping the Shabbos;

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To learn the true history of the world

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MQTA said:

Very interesting. What if you don't believe in the great deluge?

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arunma said:

Here's one of the many issues that's always made me question the Noachide religion. If the seven rules are any so-called god's law to the Gentiles, then clearly it must be equally important that we follow them as it is that Jews obey the Torah. Based on my understanding of Judaism, following laws is very important to the Jewish god. Therefore, it confuses me why the Jewish god didn't write the Noachide laws more explicitly in the Torah. All of the Noachide laws are implied, rather than explicitly stated. But Gentiles comprise the vast majority of the world's population, so it stands to reason that this god should be more clear about what he expects from Gentiles. Of course, we know that the Torah is only for Jews. So at the very least, I'd expect this god to inspire a separate legal code for Gentiles.

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link said:

QUESTION : (a) Where does the Bible say that these Seven Noahide laws were given to Noah, and where does it say that they were given to Adam?
> David ANSWER : The first six laws were given to Adam. These laws were repeated, and a seventh law was added, when G-d made the Covenant of the Rainbow with Noah. Hence these became known as the Seven Noahide Laws. In the Oral Torah (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, chapter 7), it is explained that all of these seven laws are coded within a single verse in Genesis, chapter 2. But first let's start with six of the Noahide laws which are explicitly found in different verses in the Book of Genesis.

1. Do Not Murder.
The edict against murder is stated in Genesis 9:6: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, among man, his blood shall be shed; for in the image of G-d He made man."

2. Do Not Have Forbidden Sexual Relations.
Five of the six types of relations which are forbidden by G-d to Gentiles are covered in Gen. 2:24: "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and cling to his wife and they shall become one flesh." This verse explicitely forbids relations with one's mother, one's father's wife, a wife of another man, another male, and an animal. A Gentile is also forbidden to have relations with his maternal sister, which is learned from Gen. 20:13: "Moreover, she is indeed my sister, my father's daughter, though not my mother's daughter; and she became my wife." (Note that Abraham said this to appease Abimelech. It was actually only figuratively true in his case, since Sarah was the daughter of Abraham's brother. So they had the same paternal grandfather, who people often referred to as "father".) It also was universally accepted that father-daughter relations would be included, as evidenced by the disgrace of Lot after he had relations with his two daughters, following G-d's destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19:29-36, and Rashi's explanation of Gen. 20:1). Relations of a female with a female are likewise an abomination to G-d which is included as one of the subjects of the verse Lev. 18:3, which speaks against the immoral practices of the ancient Egyptians and Canaanites, and which Lev. 18:30 refers to as "abominable traditions." About these the Midrash (Sifra) specifies: "A man would marry a man, a woman would marry a woman, and a woman would be married to two men."

3. Do Not Commit Theft.
The prohibition of theft is contained within the permission which G-d granted to Adam and Eve in Genesis 2:16 to eat from the trees of the garden. This implies that if the permission had not been granted, they would have been forbidden to do so, because the property did not belong to them. This applied specifically to the fruit of the Tree of "Knowledge of Good and Evil" which was forbidden for them to take, under penalty of death (Genesis 2:17).

(Note that Adam and Eve were not given permission to eat animals, so all humans were constrained to be vegetarians until after the Flood. G-d permitted the eating of meat for the first time to Noah and his family after they left the Ark, which is why G-d at that time added the seventh commandment, which prohibits the eating of flesh removed from a living animal.)

4. Establish Laws and Courts of Justice.
This can be learned from the story of Shechem, Dinah, and the sons of Jacob. In Genesis 34:2 it relates, "Shechem, son of Hamor the Hivvite, the prince of the land, saw her; he took her, and he lay with her, and violated her." His "taking" her against her will was a form of kidnapping, which was forbidden as a type of theft. Since the men of Shechem's city did not convene a court of justice and convict him for his crimes, they failed to obey this commandment and also collectively became accomplices to his crime. Jacob's sons therefore formed a court, convicted them, and executed them.

5. Don't Eat Flesh Taken From a Live Animal.
This commandment (the seventh) was given to Noah in Genesis 9:4. ("Nevertheless, you may not eat flesh with its life, which is its blood.")

6. Do Not Commit Blasphemy.
Leviticus 24:10-17 relates the incident of a Jew who violated the injunction of Exodus 22:27 and blasphemed in anger, and the Divine edict proclaiming this to be a capital offense. Moreover, it states there "ish ish (any man) who curses his G-d shall bear his sin." Why the double expression of ish ish (literally: a man, a man)? To include all mankind, Jews and Gentiles. This demonstrates that blasphemy thus is prohibited to Gentiles as a capital offense even as it is for Jews. (Sanhedrin 56a)


The source for the remaining law, which prohibits worship of false gods, is explained below.

But first note that the recounting and recording of the Seven Noahide Laws by Moses took place at Mt. Sinai, two days before G-d spoke the Ten Utterances in Ex. 20:1-14. In Exodus 24:3, it says "Moses came [before G-d spoke the Ten Utterances] and told the people all the words of G-d and ALL THE LAWS ..." The words "all the laws" refer to the Seven Noahide Laws and three additional Jewish laws, which the Children of Israel had already been commanded before they arrived at Mt. Sinai. (Moses told this total of 10 laws to the Israelites at Marah, after they crossed through the sea - see Exodus 15:25.) The next verse, Exodus 24:4, states that "Moses wrote all the words of G-d ..." These words were the Book of Genesis, which contains the Noahide Covenant and the Noahide Laws, and the Book of Exodus up to that point. G-d thus commanded the Jewish People at that time to remember the Noahide Laws, to teach them to all the nations of the world for all generations, and to provide for the establishment of Noahide courts in the Land of Israel for those Gentiles who choose to live there.

In the Oral Torah passed down through the Jewish prophets and sages and recorded in the Talmud (Sanhedrin p. 56b), it is explained that all these seven laws given are coded within the verse Gen. 2:16 ("And L-rd G-d commanded to the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you may surely eat.") In Hebrew, the verse reads, "Va-y'tzav Havaye Elokim al ha'adom laymor mikol aits hagan achol tochayl." One of the 13 specific rules of authentic Torah exegesis is by a tradition of an analogy between two laws established on the basis of identical Hebrew expressions. The seven laws are coded into Gen. 2:16 as follows, as explained by the Talmudic sage Rabbi Yochanan:

1. The word Elokim is one of the holy divine Names which mean "G-d." But the same word is used in the non-holy plural sense to refer to physical or conceptual idolatries (other "gods"), as in the verse "You shall have no other gods ..." (Ex. 20.3). Thus the above statement to Adam implies that only G-d should be worshipped, but not an idol. According to this, a Gentile is liable for making an idol, even without worshipping it.

[Note: the Talmudic sage Rabbi Yitzchak offered an alternative derivation. He suggested that the word tzav ("command") in the verse points to a prohibition of worship of false gods. The verse would then teach that only G-d, the One True G-d, is the source of all true commandments, and therefore only G-d is to be served. The connection to idolatry is evident from Hosea 5:11: "Ephraim is plundered, shattered by his judgement; for he has willingly followed after their command/tzav" - i.e., the command of idolatrous priests.]

2. The unspoken four-letter Divine name in this verse, transposed to spoken form as Havaye, points to a prohibition against cursing G-d, as evident from Leviticus 24:16. ("And one who pronounces blasphemously the Name of the L-rd/Havaye shall be put to death, the entire assembly shall surely stone him; convert and native alike, when he blasphemes the Name, he shall be put to death." Note: in the painless mode of execution translated from Hebrew as "stoning", the convicted criminal was drugged and thrown to his death from a high tower onto a stone pavement. See Tractate Sanhedrin.)

3. The words al ha'adom ("to the man") point to the prohibition against murder, which is stated in Gen. 9:6 (see above).

4. The prohibition of the six forbidden sexual relations (see above) is pointed to by the word laymor ("saying"), as evident from Jeremiah 3:11 ("Saying/laymor: if a man divorces his wife, and she goes from him and marries another man, can he return to her again? Would that not bring profound guilt upon the land? Yet you have committed adultery with many lovers and would now return to Me - the word of the L-rd.")

5. The prohibition of theft is contained within the general sense of the verse, as explained above.

6. The word va-y'tzav ("He commanded") in the verse points to the requirement for courts of justice, as seen from the similar wording in the verse Gen. 18:19: "For I know him, that he will command ("y'tzaveh") his children and his household after him that they may keep the way of the L-rd, to do righteousness and justice."

[Note: the Talmudic sage Rabbi Yitzchak offered an alternative derivation. He suggested that the commandment to establish laws and courts of justice is pointed to by the word Elokim/G-d, which also means "judges." This is evident from Exodus 22:27, which uses this word to simultaneously prohibit cursing G-d and cursing judges - as explained for example by Maimonides in his Book of the Commandments.]

7. The verse concludes, "you may surely eat" - of the trees of the garden, but not meat removed from a live animal.

So there you have it!

arunma said:

Well anyway, I'm not trying to argue against the Noachide religion. These are just some issues that confuse me about the faith, and I'd be interested in hearing the explanation from Chokmah (or another Noachide).

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Continue to ask away!

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arunma said:

It was my understanding that Jews discourage conversion. As the logic goes, Jews are responsible to make sure their brethren remain observant. So adding a new Jew to the community creates a liability. How does one reconcile this ethic with a seeming encouragement for conversion to Judaism?

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arunma said:

Does the Jewish god consider it meritorious for Gentiles to perform Jewish mitzvah? If so, I'd also like to know about this other point.

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arunma said:

If the Jewish god permits Gentiles to do other mizvah, then why are they not allowed to keep the Shabbat?

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arunma said:

I thought Jews don't interpret their creation account literally. How does the Torah then teach us the true history of the world?

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arunma said:

Well anyway Chokmah, thanks in advance for your explanations.

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chokmah said:

Good question.

In all honesty, it's not one that I have thought about.

I presume that you do not believe there was an actual person named Noah, correct?

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